Supreme Court Finally Stands Up For Gun Owners Options

[alltracman78]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080626/ap_on_..._co/scotus_guns

Nice to see

[supershannon77]

Jeremy it scares me that you no how to use a gun..it really does.

[Legit94GT]

Jeremy it scares me that you no how to use a gun..it really does.

Let me guess... you think guns kill people?


I am just glad that the supreme court finally said something about our rights to bear arms.



An armed society is a polite society

[Jeunesse]

Jeremy it scares me that you no how to use a gun..it really does.

Let me guess... you think guns kill people?


I am just glad that the supreme court finally said something about our rights to bear arms.



An armed society is a polite society

Can you prove that? Do you have statistical facts that can support your claim?

[FreddyTheOthaMea...]

im pretty sure that our forefathers ment something along these lines

[x_itchy_b_x]

a gun less society is defenseless against foreign AND domestic threats....

[Jeunesse]

yea... but it doesn't mean that it is a peaceful and polite society.

[alltracman78]

Jeremy it scares me that you no how to use a gun..it really does.

Let me guess... you think guns kill people?


I am just glad that the supreme court finally said something about our rights to bear arms.



An armed society is a polite society

Naw, she's just giving me a hard time.

[DEATH]

Jeremy it scares me that you no how to use a gun..it really does.

Let me guess... you think guns kill people?


I am just glad that the supreme court finally said something about our rights to bear arms.



An armed society is a polite society

Can you prove that? Do you have statistical facts that can support your claim?

yea... but it doesn't mean that it is a peaceful and polite society.

it's a USA thing - don't get involved. If you think guns are a problem - then abolish them in your country but leave us to our own views.
I also am glad the SC is standing up for what is our right.
Interesting how many Celica owners are armed The entire Houston crew I think.

[Legit94GT]

it's a USA thing - don't get involved. If you think guns are a problem - then abolish them in your country but leave us to our own views.
I also am glad the SC is standing up for what is our right.
Interesting how many Celica owners are armed The entire Houston crew I think.

Well duh you guys are in texas! lol

I dont need to statistics to prove anything... If you were a crook and you were going to break into some ones house would you break into the house where you knew there wasnt a gun, or the one where you knew they had guns? People rarely have "fire fights" people get murdered because someone brought a knife to a gun fight... but who wont want to have a fire fight, where their chance of living dropped a staggering amount because thier foe had a gun?i hope i explained that ell enough, but i dont think i did ugh... any other republicans want to add to that thought train?

Alot of countries have really really strict gun laws, take ireland, you have to apply for a permit to own a gun, once you get the permit then you can try and buy one, if you can show that you have a reason to own it(and personal protection isnt good enough) then if you actually get one the police can come into your house at anytime and search for it to make sure you still own it and havent sold it illegally... But guess what? people still get murdered over there, they just use other weapons or tools, like a knife or a bomb

With that said i think that the US could make some laws more effecient, and make some new ones to make sure that the wrong people cant get the guns...

just my .02

[Jeunesse]

polite? that's a polite way of saying it, isn't it? you're right though... not my business and I should not be getting involved. All I'm asking is for you guys to prove to me that what you're saying is right. We are entitled to question one's views and opinions in this forum, aren't we?

[Legit94GT]

polite? that's a polite way of saying it, isn't it? you're right though... not my business and I should not be getting involved. All I'm asking is for you guys to prove to me that what you're saying is right. We are entitled to question one's views and opinions in this forum, aren't we?

Yes you are more than welcome to question me, my views, our government, everything, i readily encourage you to question everything around you actually:) its how you learn and how things can change for the better:)

Sorry i dont have the exact stats you are looking for, but that will be kinda hard to seeing as how theirs isnt a society that requires you to carry a gun:) but if there was... they would have stats im sure:)

Front Sight, is going that direction... right now it is a firearms traing facility, that is undergoing major steps to have a society much like what i talked about...

If you like stats you shuold try reading the book called Freakanomics... it will blow your mind:)

[Jeunesse]

polite? that's a polite way of saying it, isn't it? you're right though... not my business and I should not be getting involved. All I'm asking is for you guys to prove to me that what you're saying is right. We are entitled to question one's views and opinions in this forum, aren't we?

Yes you are more than welcome to question me, my views, our government, everything, i readily encourage you to question everything around you actually:) its how you learn and how things can change for the better:)

Sorry i dont have the exact stats you are looking for, but that will be kinda hard to seeing as how theirs isnt a society that requires you to carry a gun:) but if there was... they would have stats im sure:)

Front Sight, is going that direction... right now it is a firearms traing facility, that is undergoing major steps to have a society much like what i talked about...

If you like stats you shuold try reading the book called Freakanomics... it will blow your mind:)

You don't need a society that requires you to carry a gun to get the proof or stats that I'm asking.. tell me how high is the percentage of gun related crimes in the US than any other 1st world countries in the world? That should suffice it. Talking about breaking houses, do you think that these burglars and thugs don't carry guns as well? And why would you be in a gun fight when there's no need for it?

[alltracman78]

How many of those crimes are committed with illegal guns?
Got any statistics on that?

Take a look at Florida. 3 years ago it enacted the "castle" law. All the gun control folks screamed about the wild west, gunfights and all the innocent people that were going to get shot.
Never happened.

Washington DC had a ban on handguns for over 30 years [is what sparked this ruling], yet it's CONSISTENTLY been one of the most dangerous cities in the US.

And precisely because those "burglars and thugs" carry guns is why we should [and are] allowed to carry our own, as a deterrent. That's the whole point, which you obviously didn't get. Most criminals pry on the weak. Give that weak victim a gun AND THE TRAINING TO KNOWLEDGEABLY USE IT and it will even out the playing field.
Someone that attempts to commit a crime with a gun is reasonably assumed to have the intent to use it, why shouldn't the victim have the right and ability to fight back if they desire?

Since you're so into statistics, got any on how gun related crime has risen or dropped in areas with gun owner friendly laws? We can start with Florida, I haven't seen anti gun advocates crowing about the sharp rise in deaths they predicted....

I wish we had the ability to stick all the people that complain about gun ownership and the death penalty on an island with all the criminals. We can even give the "good" people guns [if they want them].
It would be interesting to see how they sorted the mess out.
Either they would
Come to their senses and take care of the problem [possible]
Try to placate all the bad guys, because we need to be understanding to those who commit crimes, and end up dead [more possible]
Convince all the bad guys their way of life is wrong through peace and kindness [highly unlikely]

I have absolutely no problem with gun regulations, I don't believe for a minute that anyone should be able to go and get any gun they want anywhere.
I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't own a gun because someone else is too dangerous to own one.

[DEATH]

Jeunesse:
Because this entire world is completely fcuked up and I'm not gonna be sitting there begging someone to stop when they are raping, torturing or killing my girl, my children or myself. I'm going to be blowing nicely grouped holes in his chest.
Yes the criminals are armed - that's exactly why we should be allowed to be as well. You think a few well meaning gun laws are gonna convince criminals to lay down their arms? No. They're fcuking criminals. By definition they are more than likely going to break that law too. And guess what? Now you've given them the advantage.
Why not call the cops? Because I've been at the scene of a shooting before which involved multiple gunmen and teenage victims [surprisingly innocent for once] where I actually witnessed the police being called and how long would you guess their response time was? 1hour 15mins. How far away was the police station they came from? 10mins. That's long enough for the shooters to kill every single person that was there at the time and get clean away to the other side of town before the cops even got there.
My sister almost died that night - I won't be powerless to protect my family again.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jun 27, 2008 - 1:51 PM

[Jeunesse]

How many of those crimes are committed with illegal guns?
Got any statistics on that?

Take a look at Florida. 3 years ago it enacted the "castle" law. All the gun control folks screamed about the wild west, gunfights and all the innocent people that were going to get shot.
Never happened.

Washington DC had a ban on handguns for over 30 years [is what sparked this ruling], yet it's CONSISTENTLY been one of the most dangerous cities in the US.

And precisely because those "burglars and thugs" carry guns is why we should [and are] allowed to carry our own, as a deterrent. That's the whole point, which you obviously didn't get. Most criminals pry on the weak. Give that weak victim a gun AND THE TRAINING TO KNOWLEDGEABLY USE IT and it will even out the playing field.
Someone that attempts to commit a crime with a gun is reasonably assumed to have the intent to use it, why shouldn't the victim have the right and ability to fight back if they desire?

Since you're so into statistics, got any on how gun related crime has risen or dropped in areas with gun owner friendly laws? We can start with Florida, I haven't seen anti gun advocates crowing about the sharp rise in deaths they predicted....

I wish we had the ability to stick all the people that complain about gun ownership and the death penalty on an island with all the criminals. We can even give the "good" people guns [if they want them].
It would be interesting to see how they sorted the mess out.
Either they would
Come to their senses and take care of the problem [possible]
Try to placate all the bad guys, because we need to be understanding to those who commit crimes, and end up dead [more possible]
Convince all the bad guys their way of life is wrong through peace and kindness [highly unlikely]

I have absolutely no problem with gun regulations, I don't believe for a minute that anyone should be able to go and get any gun they want anywhere.
I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't own a gun because someone else is too dangerous to own one.

ok here you go... http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafet...ics.htm#america

"Give that weak victim a gun AND THE TRAINING TO KNOWLEDGEABLY USE IT and it will even out the playing field. " or totally ban hand gun so nobody carries them even the thugs and burglars.

"It would be interesting to see how they sorted the mess out." Totally agree with you on this one.

"I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't own a gun because someone else is too dangerous to own one." Im not saying you can't own a gun just cause some are too irresponsible and don't know how, when and where to use it but it's like you're saying I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't drink and drive (though I'm so responsible and 100% guaranteed will not be involved in am accident) because someone else is too dangerous to drink and drive.

Violent crimes don't get solved or prevented using violent weapons. A wrong thing cannot be corrected by another wrong doing.

[DEATH]

or totally ban hand gun so nobody carries them even the thugs and burglars.

You think a few well meaning gun laws are gonna convince criminals to lay down their arms? No. They're fcuking criminals. By definition they are more than likely going to break that law too. And guess what? Now you've given them the advantage.

How do anti-gun people come upon this thought process - it makes absolutely no sense. They are criminals - they don't give a sh*t about you're anti-gun laws.
You can have your gun-free society - I want no part of it. Read my story from above - it's 100% true and verifiable fact. Now put yourself in my place - if you have the ability to think objectively I think you'll see my point.
Peace man - this is why you live in Canada and we live in the US. Take it easy.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jun 27, 2008 - 2:16 PM

[jcaron9gt4]

How many of those crimes are committed with illegal guns?
Got any statistics on that?

Take a look at Florida. 3 years ago it enacted the "castle" law. All the gun control folks screamed about the wild west, gunfights and all the innocent people that were going to get shot.
Never happened.

Washington DC had a ban on handguns for over 30 years [is what sparked this ruling], yet it's CONSISTENTLY been one of the most dangerous cities in the US.

And precisely because those "burglars and thugs" carry guns is why we should [and are] allowed to carry our own, as a deterrent. That's the whole point, which you obviously didn't get. Most criminals pry on the weak. Give that weak victim a gun AND THE TRAINING TO KNOWLEDGEABLY USE IT and it will even out the playing field.
Someone that attempts to commit a crime with a gun is reasonably assumed to have the intent to use it, why shouldn't the victim have the right and ability to fight back if they desire?

Since you're so into statistics, got any on how gun related crime has risen or dropped in areas with gun owner friendly laws? We can start with Florida, I haven't seen anti gun advocates crowing about the sharp rise in deaths they predicted....

I wish we had the ability to stick all the people that complain about gun ownership and the death penalty on an island with all the criminals. We can even give the "good" people guns [if they want them].
It would be interesting to see how they sorted the mess out.
Either they would
Come to their senses and take care of the problem [possible]
Try to placate all the bad guys, because we need to be understanding to those who commit crimes, and end up dead [more possible]
Convince all the bad guys their way of life is wrong through peace and kindness [highly unlikely]

I have absolutely no problem with gun regulations, I don't believe for a minute that anyone should be able to go and get any gun they want anywhere.
I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't own a gun because someone else is too dangerous to own one.

ok here you go... http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafet...ics.htm#america

"Give that weak victim a gun AND THE TRAINING TO KNOWLEDGEABLY USE IT and it will even out the playing field. " or totally ban hand gun so nobody carries them even the thugs and burglars.

"It would be interesting to see how they sorted the mess out." Totally agree with you on this one.

"I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't own a gun because someone else is too dangerous to own one." Im not saying you can't own a gun just cause some are too irresponsible and don't know how, when and where to use it but it's like you're saying I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't drink and drive (though I'm so responsible and 100% guaranteed will not be involved in am accident) because someone else is too dangerous to drink and drive.

Violent crimes don't get solved or prevented using violent weapons. A wrong thing cannot be corrected by another wrong doing.

Mostly ALL the guns that criminals and burglars carry are illegal so this would do nothing. I'm sorry, but i would rather be able to protect myself and have an even chance agaisnt someone breaking into my house. Laws or no laws, criminals will continue to have guns and attempt to use them, why should the qualified person not be able to defend themselves if a situation comes up?

[FreddyTheOthaMea...]

geeze i wonder what we did before guns were invented...

[Jeunesse]

geeze i wonder what we did before guns were invented...

whack each others head with a wooden club and drag women on their hair. lol

Death: What do you think would be the best solution for all the gun related violence in your country? I'm asking coz gun related violence here in Canada is rising due to the fact that the guns used in crimes here mostly came from the US. If you're country could come up with a better solution then Canada would be affected.

Edit: going home now from work.. won't be able to come up with a reply until tomorrow morning when I get back to work.

This post has been edited by Jeunesse: Jun 27, 2008 - 2:29 PM

[DEATH]

There is no solution. One of these days people are going to realise that violence and crime are human behavior - You won't stop it. I wish I could say there is a better more peaceful solution but I can't. If I were you I would do whatever it takes to legally arm myself [Not sure what that means for you. Legal permits or move away - IDK]
Thanks for having the maturity to discuss this rationally tho. Too often I see anti-gun people get too worked up over the subject.

[DEATH]

He was being calm - as were we all. Please don't instigate a problem where there was none.

[Sh0gunkid8721]

He was being calm - as were we all. Please don't instigate a problem where there was none.

its called sarcasm. notice the wink. wow...but back on topic. guns are bad and i believe 2 wrongs never make a right. So you own a gun...ur going to kill somebody who's trying to steal ur car or break into a home?? Do you feel that unsafe that you need to be carrying a gun around?


.u people take these forums WAAY to seriously.

[DEATH]

So you own a gun...ur going to kill somebody who's trying to steal ur car or break into a home??

Yes

Do you feel that unsafe that you need to be carrying a gun around?

You obviously don't live in Houston Texas. And yes I value human life less than I do my car as well.

[GriffGirl]

Wow, I'm shocked that this thread has become a debate about whether people should own guns or not. We had that thread about Obama vs. McCain vs. Hillary et al, so I think those of you who followed that thread know my own political views and know that all in all, I'm pretty left-wing.

The issue at question here should NOT be a matter of whether or not people should or shouldn't have guns as a matter of moral or ethical values. The debate in the Supreme Court IMO should NEVER have even gotten that far, and should've been a slam-dunk. I was SHOCKED that the ruling was 5-4. The job of the Supreme Court is to uphold the United States Constitution, and it is our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. I suppose the framer's intent could be debated, as the wording of the amendment specifically states "a well-regulated militia". For over 200 years that has included individual citizens of the United States. With the exception of committing a felony, that right should NOT be revoked. Period.

I am honestly and truly embarrassed by the level of sheer stupidity and senseless, deceitful and greed-driven crap that our country has attempted to subjugate the world with these last few years. But I still believe wholeheartedly in the Constitution and I'll be damned if some jackass is going to infringe on those inalienable rights.

[DEATH]

Well said.
Damn no I find myself speechless

[D-Man]

Because this entire world is completely fcuked up and I'm not gonna be sitting there begging someone to stop when they are raping, torturing or killing my girl, my children or myself. I'm going to be blowing nicely grouped holes in his chest.

Can I get an AMEN Brother?

and x2

My family's life is worth more than the person's who'd take it; IMO. My Gal makes the world a better place to live, And so does my daughter, Some peice of it comes to satisfy his own greedy little ambitions, Will not live to regret it; should i have a say in the matter. Be at my house, the gas station, the restaurant or w/e.

Infact, I fully support Gun CONTROL. I made my gal go with me to a shooting range, (and various buoys, This is Texas, it's cool. ) To learn how to use the weapon properly. She will have no problem defending our daughter if for whatever reason i cannot.

Yes; I sleep better at night knowing this.

Yes; i feel safer.

Yes; My family has less to fear for.

And anti-gun laws are just going to give the criminals, the molesters, the rapists, the muggers and the murderers the ADVANTAGE. They'll get guns. Think about this, Drugs are illegal, but yet we're spending BILLIONS of dollars trying to get rid of the drugs You think guns will dissappear? no; they wont. And if you get rid of enough of them, they'll comeback in different ways. Bombs, dart-guns, fcuking bows&arrows. Now that's gunna be fcuked up when you get robbed with throwing knifes and chineese stars

The point is that weapons will always exist. Weapons are what made us the great people we are now. The ability to win a fight

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jun 27, 2008 - 4:39 PM

[Sh0gunkid8721]

So you own a gun...ur going to kill somebody who's trying to steal ur car or break into a home??

Yes

Do you feel that unsafe that you need to be carrying a gun around?

You obviously don't live in Houston Texas. And yes I value human life less than I do my car as well.

Yea cuz that's real rational. LOL.

Houston Texas? Try living in Camden, near Newark, going to college near Hartford, then transferring to college near Trenton, NJ and then we'll talk. Camden, Newark, Trenton and Hartford are all listed ahead of Houston as more dangerous cities to live in. Never once have i even thought about getting a gun. I dont live in Houston and i probably would have no problem living in Houston....Houston doesnt even break the top 25 most dangerous cities to live in (i'd actually feel more safe living in Houston in comparison to where ive been). Give me a break...ive lived near and in more dangerous cities than that. So you kill somebody thats trying to break into your house...you get life in prison...good job...but hey. At least you'll be safe in prison right?

[Havok1997GT]

Wow, I'm shocked that this thread has become a debate about whether people should own guns or not. We had that thread about Obama vs. McCain vs. Hillary et al, so I think those of you who followed that thread know my own political views and know that all in all, I'm pretty left-wing.

The issue at question here should NOT be a matter of whether or not people should or shouldn't have guns as a matter of moral or ethical values. The debate in the Supreme Court IMO should NEVER have even gotten that far, and should've been a slam-dunk. I was SHOCKED that the ruling was 5-4. The job of the Supreme Court is to uphold the United States Constitution, and it is our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. I suppose the framer's intent could be debated, as the wording of the amendment specifically states "a well-regulated militia". For over 200 years that has included individual citizens of the United States. With the exception of committing a felony, that right should NOT be revoked. Period.

I am honestly and truly embarrassed by the level of sheer stupidity and senseless, deceitful and greed-driven crap that our country has attempted to subjugate the world with these last few years. But I still believe wholeheartedly in the Constitution and I'll be damned if some jackass is going to infringe on those inalienable rights.

You madam are awesome.

Now, this is very simple. Guns do not kill people, bullets when shot out of that gun kill people, and bullets (normally) dont go off until the trigger is pulled, by (again, normally) a finger that is attached to a human hand. Thus, People kill people. IF not with a gun, then with a knife,bat,hammer,poison,rope,broken bottle,chainsaw, screw driver, bricks.......do i need to go on? It doesnt matter what you do with guns, people will kill people other ways. Atleast with guns the battle is even. and even if there are laws banning guns or making it harder to get them, well drugs are illegal arent they?

There is no solution, but being a good judge of what needs to be done. If i caught a person taking my car, i would not shot him, its a car, i love it, but its not worth a persons life. Now if you in my house, then your to close for comfort and your dead when you turn around. because im not going to give you the chance to think about hurting someone in that house. If you pull a knife on me, you intend to hurt me in a very bad way and maybe kill me, your dead. you want to get into a fist fight with me. we throw down, if i lose, i lose. i dont kill for out of pride. And with that is your solution.

People Have To Think.

[Sh0gunkid8721]

Wow, I'm shocked that this thread has become a debate about whether people should own guns or not. We had that thread about Obama vs. McCain vs. Hillary et al, so I think those of you who followed that thread know my own political views and know that all in all, I'm pretty left-wing.

The issue at question here should NOT be a matter of whether or not people should or shouldn't have guns as a matter of moral or ethical values. The debate in the Supreme Court IMO should NEVER have even gotten that far, and should've been a slam-dunk. I was SHOCKED that the ruling was 5-4. The job of the Supreme Court is to uphold the United States Constitution, and it is our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. I suppose the framer's intent could be debated, as the wording of the amendment specifically states "a well-regulated militia". For over 200 years that has included individual citizens of the United States. With the exception of committing a felony, that right should NOT be revoked. Period.

I am honestly and truly embarrassed by the level of sheer stupidity and senseless, deceitful and greed-driven crap that our country has attempted to subjugate the world with these last few years. But I still believe wholeheartedly in the Constitution and I'll be damned if some jackass is going to infringe on those inalienable rights.

You madam are awesome.

Now, this is very simple. Guns do not kill people, bullets when shot out of that gun kill people, and bullets (normally) dont go off until the trigger is pulled, by (again, normally) a finger that is attached to a human hand. Thus, People kill people. IF not with a gun, then with a knife,bat,hammer,poison,rope,broken bottle,chainsaw, screw driver, bricks.......do i need to go on? It doesnt matter what you do with guns, people will kill people other ways. Atleast with guns the battle is even. and even if there are laws banning guns or making it harder to get them, well drugs are illegal arent they?

There is no solution, but being a good judge of what needs to be done. If i caught a person taking my car, i would not shot him, its a car, i love it, but its not worth a persons life. Now if you in my house, then your to close for comfort and your dead when you turn around. because im not going to give you the chance to think about hurting someone in that house. If you pull a knife on me, you intend to hurt me in a very bad way and maybe kill me, your dead. you want to get into a fist fight with me. we throw down, if i lose, i lose. i dont kill for out of pride. And with that is your solution.

People Have To Think.

I agree with most of what you said...but i gotta ask you. If you can use all those things as weapons, why do you need to have full possession of a gun? People kill people like you said so whats the purpose of having a gun when in fact people are the only lethal weapons walking the streets. This is according to you.

Its amazing to see so many internet toughies in one place. But you actually were reasonable and rational unlike "death."

[laff09]

I'd like to chime in on this topic.

The reason this is so controversial.. isn't so much a second amendment fight. its a States rights issue. The Federal government is not supposed to interfere in States issues. period. It was a handgun ban in Wash DC, nothing concerning interstate commerce/trade or anything relating to cross state relations. I felt that it was a waste of federal tax dollars to even have this heard. Shouldn't the state courts be able to take care of this sufficiently?
However, I feel like handgun bans aren't really there to keep the streets gun free. Its just easier to lock a drugdealer up on gun charges for a couple years vs them getting out in 3-6 months on just drug charges, and thats why they made them illegal.

[Havok1997GT]

Wow, I'm shocked that this thread has become a debate about whether people should own guns or not. We had that thread about Obama vs. McCain vs. Hillary et al, so I think those of you who followed that thread know my own political views and know that all in all, I'm pretty left-wing.

The issue at question here should NOT be a matter of whether or not people should or shouldn't have guns as a matter of moral or ethical values. The debate in the Supreme Court IMO should NEVER have even gotten that far, and should've been a slam-dunk. I was SHOCKED that the ruling was 5-4. The job of the Supreme Court is to uphold the United States Constitution, and it is our 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms. I suppose the framer's intent could be debated, as the wording of the amendment specifically states "a well-regulated militia". For over 200 years that has included individual citizens of the United States. With the exception of committing a felony, that right should NOT be revoked. Period.

I am honestly and truly embarrassed by the level of sheer stupidity and senseless, deceitful and greed-driven crap that our country has attempted to subjugate the world with these last few years. But I still believe wholeheartedly in the Constitution and I'll be damned if some jackass is going to infringe on those inalienable rights.

You madam are awesome.

Now, this is very simple. Guns do not kill people, bullets when shot out of that gun kill people, and bullets (normally) dont go off until the trigger is pulled, by (again, normally) a finger that is attached to a human hand. Thus, People kill people. IF not with a gun, then with a knife,bat,hammer,poison,rope,broken bottle,chainsaw, screw driver, bricks.......do i need to go on? It doesnt matter what you do with guns, people will kill people other ways. Atleast with guns the battle is even. and even if there are laws banning guns or making it harder to get them, well drugs are illegal arent they?

There is no solution, but being a good judge of what needs to be done. If i caught a person taking my car, i would not shot him, its a car, i love it, but its not worth a persons life. Now if you in my house, then your to close for comfort and your dead when you turn around. because im not going to give you the chance to think about hurting someone in that house. If you pull a knife on me, you intend to hurt me in a very bad way and maybe kill me, your dead. you want to get into a fist fight with me. we throw down, if i lose, i lose. i dont kill for out of pride. And with that is your solution.

People Have To Think.

I agree with most of what you said...but i gotta ask you. If you can use all those things as weapons, why do you need to have full possession of a gun? People kill people like you said so whats the purpose of having a gun when in fact people are the only lethal weapons walking the streets. This is according to you.

Its amazing to see so many internet toughies in one place. But you actually were reasonable and rational unlike "death."

Question 1: Because everyone else is. In a lot of ways yes its adding fuel to the fire, yes its one more gun on the street, yes it makes you just as dangerous as the guy robbing you. But here is the thing, as stated before, you will lose if you take a knife to a gun fight. Most will anyways. And id rather be on even playing ground when confronted with another person with a gun. A friend of mine had the best answer i have ever heard about carrying a gun with you at all times. He is a cop and when he is off duty he carrys his guns with him at all times. When asked "Why do you always carry your guns with you?" he replied," Id rather have it with me and never need it, then not have it and need it"
Question 2: Because although people are the only really weapon on the street, most feel they need help to kill some one. And again, i want the game to be an even match.

[GriffGirl]

I'd like to chime in on this topic.

The reason this is so controversial.. isn't so much a second amendment fight. its a States rights issue. The Federal government is not supposed to interfere in States issues. period. It was a handgun ban in Wash DC, nothing concerning interstate commerce/trade or anything relating to cross state relations. I felt that it was a waste of federal tax dollars to even have this heard. Shouldn't the state courts be able to take care of this sufficiently?
However, I feel like handgun bans aren't really there to keep the streets gun free. Its just easier to lock a drugdealer up on gun charges for a couple years vs them getting out in 3-6 months on just drug charges, and thats why they made them illegal.

I have to disagree with this. Each state is entitled to its own laws and constitution within the confines of the US Constitution. But federal law trumps state law, period. California's medicinal marijuana law is a perfect example of this, as is Oregon's assisted suicide law. There can be a federal raid on those doing something that is perfectly within the confines of the state law, but goes against federal law.

Further, by the argument that the Federal government is not supposed to interfere in State issues, this would mean that basically states could do whatever they wanted— segregation, polygamy, the list could go on and on. But they can't do this, because we have the Constitution to defend these rights.

Again— the rights afforded to us by the Constitution are inalienable. It is not the role or right of any state or local jurisdiction to take away those rights because they feel like they want to.

For whatever it's worth, I grew up outside of DC and I remember what it was like, especially in the early 80s when crack first came on the scene. I know all about Camden and Newark too, for that matter having left the DC area for NYC, I know all about Flatbush and BedStuy. I'm not arguing for or against guns, my argument is for upholding the Constitution.

[GriffGirl]

I just have to throw this in real quick and then I'm done:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That's the 10th Amendment. Basically it simply means that the federal government is limited only to the powers granted in the Constitution. So it's kind of a balance between where the line is that federal law trumps state law. I know it's still a gray area, really I do. But it's not a gray area where constitutional right comes in. The state does not have the power to violate our constitutional rights.

[Legit94GT]

Back to the main topic. The SC ruled in favor of gun owners, some will say they didn't do enough and others will argue the opposite.

At the end of the day everyone will have a different opinion, this argure ment could go one for days and days, but we dispite our logical thinking it wont be enough to shake someones core beliefs. That can only happen when something happens to them to make it personal. When someone breaks into their house, and does bad things(sums up alot of naaaasssttty things there) only because the are holding you at XXXXX point, it doesnt matter if it is a gun, a knife, dynamite, or a RPG, people have always killed, the only thing that has changed over the years is how we kill eachother...

I am not trying to end this discussion at all, so please keep going, but no one is going to change a core belief because of what someone said on the internet, when it becomes real to them.

When asked "Why do you always carry your guns with you?" he replied," Id rather have it with me and never need it, then not have it and need it"

Truer words have never been spoken

[Legit94GT]

You don't need a society that requires you to carry a gun to get the proof or stats that I'm asking.. tell me how high is the percentage of gun related crimes in the US than any other 1st world countries in the world? That should suffice it. Talking about breaking houses, do you think that these burglars and thugs don't carry guns as well? And why would you be in a gun fight when there's no need for it?

You dont need to look at other countries just try to comprehend this...

More people die every year from car accidents every year than from all the guns deaths,

More people die from doctor negligence than from guns (its like a 400% difference, this guy at my work brought in all this stuff about stuff like this last week, i will be trying see where he got it from, but that will have to wait untill monday:/)

Strict gun laws only affect the future victims, as crooks are crooks and wont care about the law, hence them being crooks...
No one wants to be in gun fight, but that doesnt mean it wont happen, and i would rather be prepared and overly cautious, than dead. Its not that we need to have gun fights, but they happen...

There is no need for car accidents... but by following your "logic" we should just get rid of seat belts and airbags cause we shouldnt need them???

[Havok1997GT]

I dont see an argument forming here, its just a educated debate. I assure you im not arguing with anyone. and i dont think anyone should let it get that far. we talk about being able to have adult conversations with out them turning into arguments then keep it a discussion and everything is kool. Dont call it arguing people tend to get pissed off when its called that and things start to go down hill and it becomes a fight.


Second. I dont agree with your statement. Words change minds on a daily basis. Its whether or not those words are well thought out, and if people are listening.

[Jeunesse]

clap clap clap I would like to commend everybody that replied to this thread for it was kept clean, rational and mature...

There is no need for car accidents... but by following your "logic" we should just get rid of seat belts and airbags cause we shouldnt need them???

This is not what I meant... Seatbelts and airbags are meant to prevent you from getting more injuries or be killed thus a positive thing, hand guns are not meant to prevent you from being killed. Seatbelts and airbags are solutions/preventions for accidents and hand guns are not solutions for accidents or crime. Got it? again, 2 wrongs don't make it right.

Havok and Griff: Very well said.

edit: speaking of prevention for getting killed by a gun, maybe somebody would just invent something like a kevlar that you could use everyday, like incorporate in our daily clothes. lol a bulletproof brief or thong hahahaha

This post has been edited by Jeunesse: Jun 28, 2008 - 8:27 AM

[Havok1997GT]

guns can keep you from getting killed if your a better shot then the guy shooting at you.

[Legit94GT]

clap clap clap I would like to commend everybody that replied to this thread for it was kept clean, rational and mature...

There is no need for car accidents... but by following your "logic" we should just get rid of seat belts and airbags cause we shouldnt need them???

Sorry dude but its true... we shouldnt need seat belts or airbags, if everyone drove slow and safe. But that isnt how it works, people speed drink and drive and drive poorly, hence the need to protect yourself with those precautions, seat belts and airbags. BUT people do dumb stuff, like rob you, rape you, assault you or anyone around you, you can have alot of precautions for that stuff, never travel alone, stay away from bad areas late at night, take a karate class, or carry/own a gun.

I am sorry if you cant see that as a rational thought.

This is not what I meant... Seatbelts and airbags are meant to prevent you from getting more injuries or be killed thus a positive thing, hand guns are not meant to prevent you from being killed. Seatbelts and airbags are solutions/preventions for accidents and hand guns are not solutions for accidents or crime. Got it? again, 2 wrongs don't make it right.

Airbags kill people. Seat belts kill people.

My friend died in highschool becuase he wore his seat belt when he was in a car accident... they are supposed to help you but sometimes that isnt how it works out. Same can go for a gun. When you used properly they can protect you, and put food on your table, but when used improperly or illegally they can kill you or someone else...

Guns are a tool. Used to hunt and to protect ourselves and our country. that is a pretty positive thing if you ask me...

You madam are awesome.

Now, this is very simple. Guns do not kill people, bullets when shot out of that gun kill people, and bullets (normally) dont go off until the trigger is pulled, by (again, normally) a finger that is attached to a human hand. Thus, People kill people. IF not with a gun, then with a knife,bat,hammer,poison,rope,broken bottle,chainsaw, screw driver, bricks.......do i need to go on? It doesnt matter what you do with guns, people will kill people other ways. Atleast with guns the battle is even. and even if there are laws banning guns or making it harder to get them, well drugs are illegal arent they?

There is no solution, but being a good judge of what needs to be done. If i caught a person taking my car, i would not shot him, its a car, i love it, but its not worth a persons life. Now if you in my house, then your to close for comfort and your dead when you turn around. because im not going to give you the chance to think about hurting someone in that house. If you pull a knife on me, you intend to hurt me in a very bad way and maybe kill me, your dead. you want to get into a fist fight with me. we throw down, if i lose, i lose. i dont kill for out of pride. And with that is your solution.

People Have To Think.

I agree with most of what you said...but i gotta ask you. If you can use all those things as weapons, why do you need to have full possession of a gun? People kill people like you said so whats the purpose of having a gun when in fact people are the only lethal weapons walking the streets. This is according to you.

IF i may chime in here... If you got into a situation where the the people/person you were fighting pulled out a knife on you, or a metal pipe, or a bat or....... i would rather pull out a gun. NOTE i did not say i would shoot them, but in most cases when someone pulls out a gun everyone kinda stops what they are doing, and then you can get out of a bad situation.

Watch the movie Pretty Women, there is a great scene where they are getting hassaled by like 3 or 4 people some wiht knives, his bodygaurd just flashes his gun and everyone kinda stops and goes away... granted its a movie, but i think that would be pretty true to forum...

[alltracman78]

How many of those crimes are committed with illegal guns?
Got any statistics on that?

ok here you go... http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafet...ics.htm#america

So, most crimes are committed with illegal guns?
Not really a surprise, which makes me wonder why those of us that have LEGAL guns receive so much flak...
In addition to that, going by the statistics you provided the problem isn't the gun laws, it's lack of reinforcement.
Why then are you [collective] pushing for new laws and not pushing for enforcement of the current ones?

Here's some more statistics about kids and guns.
From http://www.keepandbeararms.com/Information...Item.asp?ID=563

"The study was conducted from 1993-1995 by the U.S. Department of Justice's Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. Child psychologists tracked 4,000 boys and girls aged 6 to 15 in Denver, Pittsburgh, and Rochester, N.Y. Their findings?

-- Children who get guns from their parents don't commit gun crimes (0 percent) while children who get guns illegally are quite likely to do so (21 percent).

-- Children who get guns from parents are less likely to commit any kind of street crime (14 percent) than children who have no gun in the house (24 percent) -- and are dramatically less likely to do so than children who acquire an illegal gun (74 percent.)

"Give that weak victim a gun AND THE TRAINING TO KNOWLEDGEABLY USE IT and it will even out the playing field. " or totally ban hand gun so nobody carries them even the thugs and burglars.

So, the fact that criminals prefer illegal guns means nothing.

"I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't own a gun because someone else is too dangerous to own one." Im not saying you can't own a gun just cause some are too irresponsible and don't know how, when and where to use it but it's like you're saying I do have a very big problem with other people telling me I can't drink and drive (though I'm so responsible and 100% guaranteed will not be involved in am accident) because someone else is too dangerous to drink and drive.

So by that logic, no one should own cars because some people are too dangerous to drive, no one can serve in the military or police because some aren't fit, no one can be a teacher because some aren't fit, etc, etc.

Alcohol impairs your control and judgment, period. Some more than others, but anyone that consumes alcohol is effected.
Anyone that owns a gun isn't guaranteed to attempt to use it in a crime. The majority of gun owners never will.

Violent crimes don't get solved or prevented using violent weapons. A wrong thing cannot be corrected by another wrong doing.

So, if I pull a .45 on a burglar breaking into my house [we don't know why, could be to steal my things, to rape my wife/daughter, to kill me, intentionally or not], that's not going to stop him?
And if he has a gun, what's to say he didn't intend to use it in the first place? If I get the drop on him, he doesn't have much chance to use it.
Sounds a lot like prevention to me.

And, since when is self defense "wrong doing"? In case you hadn't noticed, no one is advocating armed vigilante groups that hunt down "bad guys". No one is advocating we hunt down someone that committed a crime against us and shoot them. We are SPECIFICALLY talking about preventing harm to us and our families. How exactly is that "wrong doing"?

hand guns are not solutions for accidents or crime. Got it? again, 2 wrongs don't make it right.

Again, see my last reply.

[alltracman78]

Do you feel that unsafe that you need to be carrying a gun around?.... Try living in Camden, near Newark, going to college near Hartford, then transferring to college near Trenton, NJ and then we'll talk. Camden, Newark, Trenton and Hartford are all listed ahead of Houston as more dangerous cities to live in. Never once have i even thought about getting a gun. I dont live in Houston and i probably would have no problem living in Houston....Houston doesnt even break the top 25 most dangerous cities to live in (i'd actually feel more safe living in Houston in comparison to where ive been). Give me a break...ive lived near and in more dangerous cities than that. So you kill somebody thats trying to break into your house...you get life in prison...good job...but hey. At least you'll be safe in prison right?

So you have to live in a particularly dangerous area to be the victim of a violent crime? I'll keep that in mind next time one iis committed in a "safe" area.
Aside from the fact that it's legal to defend yourself [pretty much anywhere; even in Ma you can shoot someone if they pull a gun on you], have you ever heard the expression "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"?

Now, this is very simple. Guns do not kill people, bullets when shot out of that gun kill people, and bullets (normally) dont go off until the trigger is pulled, by (again, normally) a finger that is attached to a human hand. Thus, People kill people. IF not with a gun, then with a knife,bat,hammer,poison,rope,broken bottle,chainsaw, screw driver, bricks.......do i need to go on? It doesnt matter what you do with guns, people will kill people other ways. Atleast with guns the battle is even. and even if there are laws banning guns or making it harder to get them, well drugs are illegal arent they?

There is no solution, but being a good judge of what needs to be done. If i caught a person taking my car, i would not shot him, its a car, i love it, but its not worth a persons life. Now if you in my house, then your to close for comfort and your dead when you turn around. because im not going to give you the chance to think about hurting someone in that house. If you pull a knife on me, you intend to hurt me in a very bad way and maybe kill me, your dead. you want to get into a fist fight with me. we throw down, if i lose, i lose. i dont kill for out of pride. And with that is your solution.

People Have To Think.

I agree with most of what you said...but i gotta ask you. If you can use all those things as weapons, why do you need to have full possession of a gun? People kill people like you said so whats the purpose of having a gun when in fact people are the only lethal weapons walking the streets. This is according to you.

Its amazing to see so many internet toughies in one place. But you actually were reasonable and rational unlike "death."

And you must be the toughest of them all.....
We don't care that you don't want to own a gun, no one is trying to force anyone to one one, we just want to keep our RIGHT to own one if we wish, whether for self defense or just because we like guns.

Oh, I'm more than willing to see who will win if you have as many "knife,bat,hammer,poison,rope,broken bottle,chainsaw, screw driver, bricks" as you want, and all I have is loaded .45. Sounds like a fair fight, at least according to you.

[supershannon77]

again Jeremy it scares me that you own a gun...nah Im just joking... I think this is a good thing..Im dont plan on owning a gun bc In any situation i would need one i wouldn't no how to use it..and im sure my bf will be there so can go buy the gun that way he can protect me. It just gives you that extra comfort of knowing its there if god forbid you ever needed it.

[Legit94GT]

again Jeremy it scares me that you own a gun...nah Im just joking... I think this is a good thing..Im dont plan on owning a gun bc In any situation i would need one i wouldn't no how to use it..and im sure my bf will be there so can go buy the gun that way he can protect me. It just gives you that extra comfort of knowing its there if god forbid you ever needed it.

ITs refreshing to hear that, really it is When i was buying my shotgun and waiting for everything to go through, in those 15-20 minutes i was standing there, TWO people came up to buy hand guns, having never shot a gun. Now that is ridiculous, and this is were we wcould use better guns, like you have to take a 4 day class on how to shoot before you can get your gun, stuff like that. So it is good to hear that you understand that you dont know how to use a gun, therefore you dont buy one, to many just think, "oh its point shoot, i got it" and that isnt the case at all.

Good stats ALLTRACMAN78, i did a report in college about all this, with alot more stats, among other things, but i couldnt find it on this computer, so i dont know where they went:(

Basically alltracman78 said it all... you are my new hero lol, but seriously

[Celiracer18]

honestly i think one of the greatest ways to help improve the gun control for the US would be to have a stolen gun serial database. granted the serial numbers can be changed a bit and they can be removed completely, it would GREATLY increase the number of stolen guns sold at gunshows all around the states.

[manphibian]

Coming from a country where virtually nobody has a gun, i think you should keep the right.

Gun crime is on the increase in the UK, I don't think it's any more difficult for a criminal to get hold of a gun illegally here, than it is in the US.

It's the illegal owning of guns that needs to be stopped!

There was a high profile case here a while ago where a guy shot a burglar robbing his house (not lethally) and got sent down for it. Crazy!


The only thing i hate is the increase in 'gangs' which is increasing here and is in no doubt because of influence from the US, where gun carrying gangs are 'cool'

I'm so glad that it's very unlikely that i will ever see anyone pull a gun on me, but if things do go similar to the US then i'd like the option to be able to have one too.

[supershannon77]

again Jeremy it scares me that you own a gun...nah Im just joking... I think this is a good thing..Im dont plan on owning a gun bc In any situation i would need one i wouldn't no how to use it..and im sure my bf will be there so can go buy the gun that way he can protect me. It just gives you that extra comfort of knowing its there if god forbid you ever needed it.

ITs refreshing to hear that, really it is When i was buying my shotgun and waiting for everything to go through, in those 15-20 minutes i was standing there, TWO people came up to buy hand guns, having never shot a gun. Now that is ridiculous, and this is were we wcould use better guns, like you have to take a 4 day class on how to shoot before you can get your gun, stuff like that. So it is good to hear that you understand that you dont know how to use a gun, therefore you dont buy one, to many just think, "oh its point shoot, i got it" and that isnt the case at all.

Good stats ALLTRACMAN78, i did a report in college about all this, with alot more stats, among other things, but i couldnt find it on this computer, so i dont know where they went:(

Basically alltracman78 said it all... you are my new hero lol, but seriously

Yes Alltracman78 is my hero 2..you should talk to him person or on the phone just once the amount of knowledge he has is just amazing..he just doesn't shut up hahaha...Any way yea I do no how to use a gun I was taught since i was little by my dad...no classes tho...Its one thing to be using the gun at a range or where ever but once you add in someone is breaking in or attacking you its completly different and I think many people me being one would panic and just freeze and cry and not no what to do....yes since I was little my dad always had me go places to do shot different guns and stuff but half of it I dont remember and even if I did it def is not enough for me to feel comfy protecting myself I def would make it worse....My bf has done all those classes and he hunts and all that fancy stuff...not as much as you tho Sgt Jeremy so yes thank you for compliment bc in most cases I try to be pretty logic and be like Shannon really what would you do with a gun...clean it stare at it idk brag about it..so in conclusion unless I become Lora Croft im not gonna own a gun. All you men enjoy your toys...and dont hot your eye out

[DEATH]

So you own a gun...ur going to kill somebody who's trying to steal ur car or break into a home??

Yes

Do you feel that unsafe that you need to be carrying a gun around?

You obviously don't live in Houston Texas. And yes I value human life less than I do my car as well.

Yea cuz that's real rational. LOL.

Houston Texas? Try living in Camden, near Newark, going to college near Hartford, then transferring to college near Trenton, NJ and then we'll talk. Camden, Newark, Trenton and Hartford are all listed ahead of Houston as more dangerous cities to live in. Never once have i even thought about getting a gun. I dont live in Houston and i probably would have no problem living in Houston....Houston doesnt even break the top 25 most dangerous cities to live in (i'd actually feel more safe living in Houston in comparison to where ive been). Give me a break...ive lived near and in more dangerous cities than that. So you kill somebody thats trying to break into your house...you get life in prison...good job...but hey. At least you'll be safe in prison right?

Again - you don't live in Houston. I had an HPD officer give me the instructions and advice on how to properly shoot someone who was breaking into my car. It's perfectly legal in Tx to protect your property [including car, home, children, wife, yourself etc.] with killing force. In TX if someone is in the act of breaking into your car you are well within your rights to shoot him. The officer said it would be best to put the bullet through a window and into the thief - that way the evidence is obvious and you go back home that night.
BTW - I've lived a significant portion of my life in the NY/NJ/NYC area - you're not telling me anything I didn't already know.

Its amazing to see so many internet toughies in one place. But you actually were reasonable and rational unlike "death."

Funny that you speak of internet toughies when you're the biggest blow hard on this site. You talk a big game anywhere and anytime you think someone will listen. Problem is - noone cares.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Jun 30, 2008 - 5:11 PM

[manphibian]

^^^ That however is just ludicrous!

How can a car ever be placed higher than anyone's life.

Gimme a break! You can't think that's ok?!?

[DEATH]

Sorry - but I agree with it. If you're a big enough POS to break into someone's property then the world is better off without you. Forgiveness is for your god and the courts to decide on. And what is this automatic value on human life? The value of a human life is much like respect - it has to be proven to be worth something. By itself it means very little.
Doesn't mean I'd not have a hard time coping with having killed someone afterwards.

[purplegt4]

polite? that's a polite way of saying it, isn't it? you're right though... not my business and I should not be getting involved. All I'm asking is for you guys to prove to me that what you're saying is right. We are entitled to question one's views and opinions in this forum, aren't we?

the problem is defining what is right.

[97Celica]

Guns were originally created to hunt for basic survival...now America thinks they're okay to stop crime. The same America thinks sex is okay at the age of 14...Horray America. :-(

[Havok1997GT]

Sorry - but I agree with it. If you're a big enough POS to break into someone's property then the world is better off without you. Forgiveness is for your god and the courts to decide on. And what is this automatic value on human life? The value of a human life is much like respect - it has to be proven to be worth something. By itself it means very little.
Doesn't mean I'd not have a hard time coping with having killed someone afterwards.

I agree with your statement, but i dont think i could go through with it for a car. But thats a personal thing not because i dont think your right. I agree with you about human life and whether it has value should be proven worth. But its hard to make yourself that judge, yah know? I mean that person might be a car guy who never stole anything in his life, have children who have no one to turn to if hes gone. Maybe thats why he steals your car. because hes all alone in the world with these kids and they have to eat. You can say he could just get a real job, but maybe he cant work. what if he has some kinda injury that wont allow him to work, maybe he spent his life working for something and it all feel apart, then what? you have to make a living for him and these kids so stealing cars makes a crap tone of money. so he does that.

My point is when is desperate times, people dont always think, and just act. And its not always the best thing to do, but it seems the only thing they can do. The Law may say that you can shoot someone for stealing your car, but what happens if you shoot someone who made a bad choice thinking it was his and his families only choice?

I agree this may never be the case, but what if? I dont know like i said, if you in my house your dead. But i just dont know how good my aim would be if your stealing my car.