Please dont tell me, that any of you have this Options

[D-Man]

oh crap, this is by far one of the BIGGEST rip-offs i've seen... Theese people have taken a Jelly jar and made an electromagnet into the lid, and are claiming it doubles (or provides up to 430% increases in) your gas, Increases your (naturally aspirated) Boost, and you only gotta fill up this jar once every 8-9 months. It Cleans your engine, and prevents smog. Infact it even repairs the atmosphere.


http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=woracal

Goodness, will theese people ever stop with the scams? and how many people will fall for this one?

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 14, 2008 - 12:35 PM

[bloodrain]

Oh man I bought one of those for my Bughatti Veyron! Hope i didn't get scammed!

[D-Man]

Oh man I bought one of those for my Bughatti Veyron! Hope i didn't get scammed!

How are you gunna spend that kind of money on a car, and then put some piece of crap machine that's going to inject electrified water into the combustion chamber?



I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but: Common Man!!

[lubu]

Im not sure if that works but the principal seems very interesting. It is not an "electromagnet" (where did you come up with this?) its called water electrolysis.

2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 (or HHO as he stated)

From there you obtain oxyhydrogen (HHO) and this gaseous mixture can combust if you introduce a spark, flame to it.

Very interesting indeed.

Edit: If it combust, that would means a bigger explosion in the combustion chamber thus creating more chemical energy ---> more mechanical energy.

This post has been edited by lubu: Jul 14, 2008 - 1:58 PM

[CelicaST_CALI]

mabye i can buy some flame stickers to give me even better power ....

[lubu]

Oh man I bought one of those for my Bughatti Veyron! Hope i didn't get scammed!

How are you gunna spend that kind of money on a car, and then put some piece of crap machine that's going to inject electrified water into the combustion chamber?



I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but: Common Man!!

D-Man its not water, after electrolysis it'll be in gaseous state which can be ignited by spark.

[D-Man]

It is not an "electromagnet" (where did you come up with this?) its called water electrolysis.

That's what it looks like in the picture.

D-Man its not water, after electrolysis it'll be in gaseous state which can be ignited by spark.

If HHO is such a combustible substance, why dont cars run off of it instead of a non-renewable fuel source, like we run currently?


Also, I tend to get a bit worried (when for $200) i read this:

The only way to know about Water4Gas:

(1) Don't listen to anybody!
(2) Read my e-books to discover how we are getting ACTUAL RESULTS right now,
(3) Test it yourself!

Dont listen to anybody?

Common Man!

EDITED

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 14, 2008 - 2:19 PM

[Sinyk]

If HHO is such a combustible substance, why dont cars run off of it instead of a non-renewable fuel source, like we run currently?

Greedy oil companies trying to rule the world? WTB more electric cars that look normal!

This post has been edited by Sinyk: Jul 14, 2008 - 2:21 PM

[D-Man]

Greedy oil companies trying to rule the world?

Speaking of witch, (on a quick side-note) i'm sure the middle east wouldn't be jacking up their prices and trying to "kill us at the pump"; if it wasn't for Exxon and Cheveron, and Shell (and a few others) Reporting RECORD high's in profits, showing several Hundred Trillion dollars

[lubu]

And if HHO is such a super-riffic idea, why dont cars run off of it instead of a non-renewable fuel source, like we run currently?

Yea its what Ive been wondering too, maybe the combustion isnt that great to power the engine.

Maybe blooddrain can tells us after he gets it...

[DEATH]

We did this experiment in 8th grade science in NY. Remember the residue it left from imperfect water? I want none of that in my engine.

[lubu]

We did this experiment in 8th grade science in NY. Remember the residue it left from imperfect water? I want none of that in my engine.

Its distilled water (meaning it is purified).

Claimed water fuelled engines often obtain hydrogen by electrolysis of water. The electrolysis cell must be powered electrically. The hydrogen and oxygen obtained by this electrolysis can then be burned but more energy is required to drive the electrolysis cell than can be extracted from the resulting hydrogen-oxygen mixture. Otherwise, such a system would be equivalent to a perpetual motion machine.

Just as I thought the power out put by this process is insufficient.

When hydrogen is burned, the heat it creates can be converted into work by a conventional Otto cycle car engine, but the efficiency of such engines is limited by the second law of thermodynamics and is likely to be around 20%.[3][4] 5]

Hey 20% is pretty good but we wont get that from a jar with water will we.

[D-Man]

here is a fun fact

Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to increase automotive engine efficiency or to operate a car using water as a fuel.Many of these claims, prima facie, violate the Laws of thermodynamics.

(click on quote box for source link)

Thats one law you dont wanna get caught breaking

Maybe blooddrain can tells us after he gets it...

that's a great idea, I'll find out, and wont destroy my engine in the process

J/P w/ ya blooddrain

Remember the residue it left from imperfect water? I want none of that in my engine.

That's what i'm thinking, there is also the fact of this jar of water lasting for months at a time, and we all know how water gets "icky" after it's sat for long enough.

EDIT:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O

The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it.

So electrofied water turns into this combustable gas...Then it turns back into water when it's combusted......... Hey dosen't combustion take place INSIDE your engine?

Then Pt. II, It takes more power to produce the oxy, than it gives back...

Thank you WIKI, for proving my points

Myth-Busted

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 14, 2008 - 3:07 PM

[bloodrain]

Oh man I bought one of those for my Bughatti Veyron! Hope i didn't get scammed!

How are you gunna spend that kind of money on a car, and then put some piece of crap machine that's going to inject electrified water into the combustion chamber?



I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but: Common Man!!

I dont think you understood the slight sarcasm/joke. A Bughatti Veyron is a $1,000,000 dollar car.... nevermind.

[D-Man]

A Bughatti Veyron is a $1,000,000 dollar car.... nevermind.

you mean you dont have that kind of money just laying arround



i have no idea who's got that kind of dough, and who dosen't. (you could have rebuild an old 50year old one ) Hell, my boss is in the process of importing a brand new lambo. His porche isn't good enough anymore. and i can't have it

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 14, 2008 - 3:39 PM

[lubu]

here is a fun fact

Oxyhydrogen is often mentioned in conjunction with devices that claim to increase automotive engine efficiency or to operate a car using water as a fuel.Many of these claims, prima facie, violate the Laws of thermodynamics.

(click on quote box for source link)

Thats one law you dont wanna get caught breaking

Not one law, but three. We are not talking abt using it as fuel or gain huge power.

Remember the residue it left from imperfect water? I want none of that in my engine.

That's what i'm thinking, there is also the fact of this jar of water lasting for months at a time, and we all know how water gets "icky" after it's sat for long enough.

Its distilled water therefore no impurities.

EDIT:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O

The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it.

So electrofied water turns into this combustable gas...Then it turns back into water when it's combusted......... Hey dosen't combustion take place INSIDE your engine?

Then Pt. II, It takes more power to produce the oxy, than it gives back...

Thank you WIKI, for proving my points

Myth-Busted

You really have no idea of anything you wrote.

Before you starting to laugh...

Ever heard of water injection???

BTW the H2O is not in liquid state, its in gaseous form and will exits via the exhaust manifold out to the muffler. Do you really think dropplet of water can form in the combustion chamber?? Water evaporate at 100 degree celcius while its several hundred degree at least inside the chambers.

You're not making any sense, we are not here to see how efficient it is. What my intention was if you can gain that HHO and use it, anygain is good. Remember no engine in this world is 100% efficient.

Wiki provides facts but you need to understand these facts before quoting them.

This post has been edited by lubu: Jul 14, 2008 - 3:46 PM

[D-Man]

Just because you can do something, Dosen't make it a good idea. Distilled water alone will eventually cause corrosion. Water injection systems have additives in the water that are designed to get the cooling fluid mixture in there, cool everything, and get out w/o sticking to your internals. Granted, WI is a good system, but only for an application that calls for it.

But if you believe in it so much, i'd be interested to see the results that you have with it. Personally, I just dont see how this could be a good idea. It reminds me of the "Electric-TurboChargers" rip-off.

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 14, 2008 - 4:08 PM

[lubu]

Just because you can do something, Dosen't make it a good idea. Distilled water alone will eventually cause corrosion. Water injection systems have additives in the water that are designed to get the cooling fluid mixture in there, cool everything, and get out w/o sticking to your internals. Granted, WI is a good system, but only for an application that calls for it.

But if you believe in it so much, i'd be interested to see the results that you have with it. I just dont see how this could be a good idea. Remids me of the "Electric-TurboChargers" rip-off.

Water injection I believe contains water and alcohol maybe some oil and the oil is to prevent corrosion.
I never said I believe in it, I was simply showing interest, I hold nothing against you but you need to understand facts before arguing withone one abt something you dont know/not sure.

[D-Man]

you need to understand facts before arguing with one one about something you don't know/not sure.

That's a great statement, but this thing is crap. I know this. I'm Sure of this. Hell, look at the picture, it's a jelly jar. It's a $200, electromagnetic, power-Consuming, Jellyless - jelly jar.

Also; Lubu, i'm not arguing with ya. You've managed to bring alot of good points to this discussion, but some of them (the point) lack a full comprehension to it's meaning in respective medium. (In otherwords, You're giving our jelly-jar the benefit of the doubt, but who-ever made this jelly jar, didnt think this stuff all the way through.) atleast, that's how it seems to me.

But we are quickly breaking this jelly jar and it's function down to the basics really well! (IMO) I'm not arguing at all, i'm rather enjoying this conversation. (oh the 3pt font earlier wasn't yelling at you btw; it was just an way of expression i have sometimes kinda like an announcement) my grammar is off, i know

EDIT: look at our last 2 post, We're arguementably agreeing about WI systems

This post has been edited by D-Man: Jul 14, 2008 - 4:37 PM

[MercuryFree]

Greedy oil companies trying to rule the world?

Speaking of witch, (on a quick side-note) i'm sure the middle east wouldn't be jacking up their prices and trying to "kill us at the pump"; if it wasn't for Exxon and Cheveron, and Shell (and a few others) Reporting RECORD high's in profits, showing several Hundred Trillion dollars

Got a source for your 'several hundred trillion dollars'? Shell for instance in the 2006/7 financial year made a total profit of USD$31billion...methinks it's unlikely that that's suddenly spiked into the trillions,even with the recent increases in fuel prices.

Oil companies have some of the lowest margins of any industry ffs, they're only making more money because the raw materials cost more, so maintaining the same (low) profit margin they get more out of it. Which causes inflation, which makes their costs rise, which makes them make even LOWER margins.

Hype fail.


Back on topic, this guy I know who is an electrician rigged up his car with a home-made one of these systems and supposedly it DOES work, but it's nothing huge and miraculous of a difference. Further reading.

This post has been edited by MercuryFree: Jul 14, 2008 - 4:57 PM

[lubu]

I agree, it was quite enjoyable.

Nope. Im not giving the $200 dollars jar the benifit of the doubt, Im just interested in the actual chemistry behind it.

Im not sure if that works but the principal seems very interesting.

Hey 20% is pretty good but we wont get that from a jar with water will we.

But its all cool.

This post has been edited by lubu: Jul 14, 2008 - 5:01 PM

[aflacattack]

nothings wrong with using HHO as a extra source of fuel to power a car.
its not gonna be anything AMAZING or 430% INCREASE IN MPG!!!
its not even gonna be 33.3%, repeating of course, chance of increase in MPG
ehh i should work up some of the math for this, but my physics escapes me!

[Galcobar]

If it were that easy to add, two points: car manufacturers would love to use it and get even more room in their fleet emission standards, and it wouldn't require millions of dollars to produce a working hydrogen-powered vehicle.

That said, using waste energy from the gasoline (electricity generated but not used already) to produce hydrogen in small quantities is perfectly understandable. It's the addition of hydrogen and water into a system not designed for it, and lacking the protections of a water-cooling system chemical mix, that make this a truly questionable idea.

A hydrogen-fueled engine is a far different beast than a gasoline-fueled engine, much more so than a diesel compared to a gas engine.

[lubu]

If it were that easy to add, two points: car manufacturers would love to use it and get even more room in their fleet emission standards, and it wouldn't require millions of dollars to produce a working hydrogen-powered vehicle.

It is because to power the whole car solely on Hydrogen you need greater amount of energy in producing the hydrogen then you can get out from it. 20% efficient that is.

That said, using waste energy from the gasoline (electricity generated but not used already) to produce hydrogen in small quantities is perfectly understandable. It's the addition of hydrogen and water into a system not designed for it, and lacking the protections of a water-cooling system chemical mix, that make this a truly questionable idea.

As said in previous posts, the water would escape out to the exhaust minifold (water will not form as dropplets in high temperature), but even if it did the worse thing that water can do is corrosion which at this point I think you are right abt the chemical mix, oil are needed to prevent corrosion.

[CAMAricer]

Without even reading up on how this jar works, I'm going to throw my hat into the ring and give my (educated) opinion.

The process of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen gas is very energy extensive. The theory of burning hydrogen gas is well known (that's what is used as rocket fuel in spaceships). So there is no way that a simple device like that can ever produce enough gas WITHOUT consuming a butt-load of energy in the first place to make it a viable option. It's sort of like saying that your alternator (alone) can produce enough electricity to power an air compressor for your car. You'll burn more gas trying to make the electricity this extra electricity which could have simply be used to power the car in the first place.

Mythbusters actually tested such a device on their show and while it proved that the concept worked, it was pathetically effective (WAYYYY too little gas was produced to be beneficial).

But yeah, stupid/ignorant people unfortunately are easy prey to these vultures of society...

This post has been edited by CAMAricer: Jul 15, 2008 - 9:11 AM

[xs94st]

my friend made one but it broke while on a test run and he jus said 'fck it.' rofl.

[aflacattack]

my friend made one but it broke while on a test run and he jus said 'fck it.' rofl.

honestly i'm tempted to make one, and try it on my quad or something, but i dont have time!

[dagreat1]

yeah I was CAMA has it right. Hydrogen is an excellent form of fuel. I Intern over here at pratt and whitney and our rockets are hydrogen fueld. And the idea for hydrogen fueld cars have been around since the 50's. The problem with this set up is it takes more energy to turn the water into the gas than the energy you'll get out of it so yea the hydrogen will combust in the engine but you are workign the altenator a bit harder to produce this HHO gas so in the long run i'm pretty sure your gas milage decreases. Further more a lot of these units run off vac lines and the way they are set up most of the HHO gas is sucked into the engine at idle when the engine needs it the least.

[JonMarkos]

Funny this came up. I guy I see regularly at work was telling me about a system he installed on his car that increased his gas mileage from 25mpg to 43mpg and when I asked him what it was he gave me a business card that took me to their website. I've taken more than a few chemistry classes in my time and know a little bit about how an engine works but I was unable to figure out how this thing works. The guy did tell me that he has been using it for about 3 months and was involved in the original testing and fine tuning of it before they released the design to the general public. The car he uses it on is a 2002 Honda Accord V6. I'm tempted to buy one because 1) The guy is a master certified mechanic and I trust him and 2) I've wasted money on worse things than this if it doesn't work out.

[Consynx]

Helium burns hotter, and i'm unsure if your stock ecu would just simply let you run helium. . .
If you know the guy, get a discount and find out.
BTW, there's a huge proposal on this that is several years old now, except when i read it, i coulda swore they wanted to use a vibrating rod to separate the helium...not sure what this one is. (I didn't click it)

[x_itchy_b_x]

YAh this stuff works sooooo good that the trillion dollar car industry couldn't figure out how to make this contraption out of ball glass and make their car sell like hot cakes because of the mileage.

[D-Man]

Wholey crap, this thread still exists?

Yeah, i posted this a million years ago hoping to discurage ANYONE from posting up ::In my stupidest voice:: "Hey uh, this says that it'll make my car faster than you 5sGte guys and even you 3sgte people, so uh... does it work? should i buy this? can i get 6,541,628,764MPH gains from this?" Much like the electronic turbos (especialy the plastic ones) and the "Super Chips"

Speaking of super-chips, a friend of mine recently bought one on E-Bay for his Impala, then he started braggin on his MAD hp gains... The other day he called me all pissed off... aparently he took it off, and it broke... Ya know what was in it? Guess. Seriously, Guess! ...... Nothing. It was Fcuking empty. I wonder where those MAD hp gains came from? and where they went?

[Cory]

For all you guys that immediately write this off - I'm glad not everyone is not as opposed to new ideas and technology as you make yourselves out to be, otherwise we would still be trying to drive our cars with square stone wheels.

Go check out these videos and see if your opinion changes. I'm not talking about the crappy water4gas product, because they are junk and most of them just sell you instructions on building one, not an actual installable unit.

Water-powered welder and car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4JXKn1e9ig

Japanese water-powered concept car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

I saw this stuff and went "WOW!"...I considered playing with this technology in an old tercel or corolla just to see what kind of results can come from it. Anyway, make of it what you will, but the technology exists and in the right engineering hands, it DOES work!

[D-Man]

For all you guys that immediately write this off - I'm glad not everyone is not as opposed to new ideas and technology as you make yourselves out to be, otherwise we would still be trying to drive our cars with square stone wheels.

We're not saying it isn't possible. We're saying that a jelly jar with a wire in it isn't going to solve your problem

Yeah, it is possible to convert various items into usable power sources, And i'm all about that. But this $200 jar that sprays "shocked" water into your engine isn't going to be helping your car at all.

This thread is dedicated to trashing faulty, and falsely advertised products such as the Spiffy-Jelly jar (as i've come to call it.) Products that dont work, and are intended to do nothing but make profit at the expense of the longevity of your engine.

[Cory]

Yeah, it is possible to convert various items into usable power sources,

various items? Like the gas/water hybrid car? The cold-heat welder?

These, to me, are breakthrough technology that could make pretty drastic changes in the not-so-distant future, especially to our dependency on oil. How about a generator that could power and heat your house, all run by rainwater?



So anyway, for the record...I have had a good laugh at the different sites for the HHO/gas hybrid kits. They make it out to be a big scam and their product does look like it came from the canned food aisle at Safeway. Maybe they should spend some of their money on a marketing team?

If anyone is interested, I managed to find the entire document (~168 pages) that the water4gas website sells online, which is detailed instructions on building one of these yourself. I'll e-mail it to you (in .pdf format) if anyone is interested. The document is pretty in-depth, with parts lists and all. Just PM me.