What makes a sports car? Options

[devilsden97]

Discussion on what makes a sports car, and why. What comes close but doesnt make the cut?

Supersprynts list: (based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car)

Nissan 350Z
Toyota Supra
Chevy Camaro
Chevy Corvette
BMW M3
Mazda RX8
Honda S2000

Others:
Toyota Celica
Mitsubishi Evo
Subaru STI
Nissan Maxima (lol)
Acura Integra Type-R
Honda Del Sol

[Supersprynt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car

Your wikipedia link doesn't work.

A car may be a sporting automobile without being a sports car. Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, hot hatches and the like, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Sep 9, 2008 - 9:30 AM

[devilsden97]

^with that being posted. were talking FROM the FACTORY.

unmodified.

[spolski07]

Celica nor Integra are not sports cars. They maybe trying, but they aren't real sports cars.

A sports car is a term used to describe a class of automobile. The exact definition varies, [1] but generally it is used to refer to a low to ground, light weight vehicle with a powerful engine. Most vehicles referred to as sports cars are rear-wheel drive, have two seats, two doors, and are designed for more precise handling, acceleration, and aesthetics. A sports car's dominant considerations can be superior road handling, braking, maneuverability, low weight, and high power, rather than passenger space, comfort, and fuel economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car

When you have a 4cyl economy motor and FWD you are not a sports car. ITR has no torque, you'll have to get high up in the RPMs to see any power.

how is an ITR not a sports car? a F1 car has no torque either...hmm yet they have an entire racing series dedicated to them.
every cars powerband is different, the integra was built to be rev happy.
i am simply saying that almost every import magizine have called the itr a "show room racecar" due to the fact that it was built to be able to go onto a track and race then not have to be trailered home.

Nissan 350Z
Toyota Supra
Chevy Camaro
Chevy Corvette
BMW M3
Mazda RX8
Honda S2000

using what you quoted at wikipedia, these cars are not sports car due to their back seat.

This post has been edited by spolski07: Sep 9, 2008 - 9:41 AM

[D-Man]

Maxima is still an epic failure on the sports car list.

although the 00-03 had some HP... they still failed at weight. The new 09 has track times comparable to our celicas

This post has been edited by D-Man: Sep 9, 2008 - 9:46 AM

[devilsden97]

if you call the type-r rev happy....IIRC the s2k's redline is ~9k


This post has been edited by devilsden97: Sep 9, 2008 - 9:43 AM

[spolski07]

yet somehow the nissan is trying to market the 09maxima a "sports sedan"

"sports car" is a very general term.
lots of cars are designed to many different things
the evo and sti are designed for rally, and the last time i checked was a sport. so i consider them a sports car.
integra type r was built to be a DD that was able to go to the track and be competitive. another form of "sport"

[D-Man]

yet somehow the nissan is trying to market the 09maxima a "sports sedan"

lol!!

09' Maxima specs

• 0 - 60 mph: 5.5 sec.
• 0-60 mph with 1-ft Rollout: 5.2 sec.
• Skid Pad Lateral acceleration: 0.83 g
• 1/4 Mile: 14.7 sec. @ 96.9 mph (155.9 km/h)
• 60 - 0 mph: 128 feet (39 m)

[spolski07]

if you call the type-r rev happy....IIRC the s2k's redline is ~9k

the s2k's with the 2.0 is 9k revlimit but the current 2.2 is 8k rev limit.

here is what wikipedia has to say about the ITR's B18C5:

The Type R's B18C5 engine was not merely a tuned version of the GS-R's B18C1. Instead of utilizing a reworked version of the GS-R head Honda engineers chose to use the PR3 head found on the Civic Si's B16. This head compared to the B16's was tuned, polished and outfitted to make the most of the 1.8L high-reving engine. Molybdenum-coated, high compression pistons and stronger-but-lighter connecting rods strengthened the reciprocating assembly. Extra counterweighting on the crankshaft altered its vibration modes to enhance durability at high RPM. The intake valves were reshaped with a thinner stem and crown that reduced weight and improved flow. The intake ports were given a minor port and polish. Stiffer valve springs resisted float on more aggressive camshafts. Intake air was now drawn from inside the fender well, for a colder, denser charge. That intake fed a short-runner intake manifold with a larger throttle body for better breathing. An improved stainless steel exhaust collector with more gentle merge angles, a change to a larger, consistent piping diameter, flared internal piping in the muffler allowed easier exit of gases. A retuned engine computer also contributed to improved power output, which allowed the Type R to accelerate from 0 to 60 mph (100 km/h) in 6.2 seconds(as apposed to the gs-r's 7.0).

The transmission was upgraded with lower and closer gear ratios in second through fifth gears, in order to take advantage of the additional rev range. The North American version retained the same 4.4 final drive throughout the Type R's production run, unlike the Japanese version, which in 1998 changed to a 4.785 final drive along with revised gearing. The Type R's open differential was replaced with a torque-sensing limited slip type.

The chassis received enhancements in the form of reinforcements to the rear wheel wells, roof rail, and other key areas. "Performance rods", chassis braces that were bolted in place, were added to the rear trunk wall and subframe. The front strut tower bar was replaced with a stronger aluminum piece, and the R also received the addition of a rear strut tower bar. Camber rigidity was improved at the rear by increasing wheel bearing span by 10 mm. The Type R's body also received a new functional rear spoiler, body-colored rocker panels and front lip, and 5-bolt hubs with special lightweight Type-R wheels. Under those wheels was a much larger set of disc brakes, front and back. The tires were upgraded to Bridgestone RE010 "summer" tires.

The Type R received very aggressive tuning in its suspension settings. All soft rubber bushings were replaced with much stiffer versions, as much as 5.3 times higher in durometer readings. The springs and dampers were much stiffer, with a 10 mm (0.4 in) reduction in ride height. The rear anti-roll bar diameter was increased to 22 mm (0.9 in) in diameter. The front anti-roll bar retained the same size, although the end links were changed to a more responsive sealed ball joint as opposed to a rubber bushing on the lesser models. The result was a chassis with very responsive, racetrack-ready handling that ably absorbed mid-corner bumps. Mild oversteer was easy to induce with a lift of the throttle, and during steady-state cornering the car maintained a slight tail-out stance.

The interior was stripped down to reduce weight. The air conditioning system was removed in early models and nearly all the sound-dampening material was eliminated. This provided for a much noisier ride, but since the Type-R was marketed as a race car for the street, most owners didn't mind. The seats were also unique to the Type-R. Standard were weight saving Recaro racing seats

[playr158]

ITR fails cause its FWD.

also ITR isn't wise to be compared to an F1 car which still makes more torque and revs up to 20,000 RPM.

sports car = RWD

and FYI some 2 door sports car Porsches come with "back seats" which are little black pads in the rear for insurance reasons

ITR, celica, integras, civics = sport compact...

sport compact does not = sports car

This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:04 AM

[devilsden97]

but since the Type-R was marketed as a race car for the street, most owners didn't mind. The seats were also unique to the Type-R. Standard were weight saving Recaro racing seats

just because its marketed that way, doesnt mean it is one.


i think the evo and sti have some sports car cred considering they are both used in rally racing.

banging around your home track doesnt count as racing.... (nor does auto cross)



Toyota MR2? RWD 2 seater. power...(sorta)

This post has been edited by devilsden97: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:06 AM

[spolski07]

ITR fails cause its FWD.

also ITR isn't wise to be compared to an F1 car which still makes more torque and revs up to 20,000 RPM.

sports car = RWD

and FYI some 2 door sports car Porsches come with "back seats" which are little black pads in the rear for insurance reasons

is there a set of rules to be a sports car? is it set in stone somewhere?
you PERSONALLY may not think that the ITR is a sports car but i personally think it is as well as a few other FWD cars
like i posted eariler, "sports car" is a very general term due to the fact there is so many motor sports events out there. and each type of motorsport has cars built specifically for that sport, thus making them sports cars.

the ST205 wrc edition was made into a street going versions to that they could compete in rally. i think this makes the gt-four a sports car

the backseat thing i also believe is a joke, but was proving a point

[playr158]

but since the Type-R was marketed as a race car for the street, most owners didn't mind. The seats were also unique to the Type-R. Standard were weight saving Recaro racing seats

just because its marketed that way, doesnt mean it is one.


i think the evo and sti have some sports car cred considering they are both used in rally racing.

banging around your home track doesnt count as racing.... (nor does auto cross)



Toyota MR2? RWD 2 seater. power...(sorta)

autocross definitely = racing..you'd be surprised at how much you can learn and compete in that type of racing.
track days don't really = racing though, those are learning experiences



I can also rally race a ford focus....does that make it a sports car?
there is an entire group of "Pruis racing" does that mean a Pruis is a sports car


This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:11 AM

[devilsden97]

dan you of all people know the m3 (any version) has a full back seat (as full as the celica at least)

[spolski07]

edit: dan beat me to it. about the autox thing




This post has been edited by spolski07: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:15 AM

[devilsden97]

but since the Type-R was marketed as a race car for the street, most owners didn't mind. The seats were also unique to the Type-R. Standard were weight saving Recaro racing seats

just because its marketed that way, doesnt mean it is one.


i think the evo and sti have some sports car cred considering they are both used in rally racing.

banging around your home track doesnt count as racing.... (nor does auto cross)

autocross definitely = racing..you'd be surprised at how much you can learn and compete in that type of racing.
track days don't really = racing though, those are learning experiences

my point by saying auto cross, because that type of racing EVENS the field big time. you see celica st's throwing down better times then z06 vetts....95% of autocross is driver ability. Hense....sports car need not apply

edit:
dan:
I can also rally race a ford focus....does that make it a sports car?
there is an entire group of "Pruis racing" does that mean a Pruis is a sports car

yes... ford focus cosworth rs....awd turbo...same platform as the sti/evo

i demand photos of prius racing!


This post has been edited by devilsden97: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:13 AM

[playr158]

but since the Type-R was marketed as a race car for the street, most owners didn't mind. The seats were also unique to the Type-R. Standard were weight saving Recaro racing seats

just because its marketed that way, doesnt mean it is one.


i think the evo and sti have some sports car cred considering they are both used in rally racing.

banging around your home track doesnt count as racing.... (nor does auto cross)

autocross definitely = racing..you'd be surprised at how much you can learn and compete in that type of racing.
track days don't really = racing though, those are learning experiences

my point by saying auto cross, because that type of racing EVENS the field big time. you see celica st's throwing down better times then z06 vetts....95% of autocross is driver ability. Hense....sports car need not apply

you didn't say sports car.....you said RACING.

it in fact is racing no mater what kind of car you use.

and what was your point about an m3 having a back seat?


ALERT: SPORTS CAR PIC


This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:15 AM

[devilsden97]

m3 back seat point... idk.. i cant remember now.

lol at the prius.

and sorry about my miss wording.

im just playing devils advocate. i know the celica is not a "sports car" just like to see others opinions

edit: and there is nothign wrong with a healthy debate

This post has been edited by devilsden97: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:21 AM

[spolski07]

agreed, nothing wrong with a healthy debate
i also never said i like fwd over rwd. just the fact that i do believe that the DC2R and even the DC5R are sports cars in my opinion. but the term sports car has such a large grey area around it that its hard to really define what a sports car is these days

LOLZ at me and dan's convo

DONUTS FTW! (or doughnuts as dan calls themlol)

This post has been edited by spolski07: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:27 AM

[playr158]

DuBpLayR (11:23:07 AM): sports car or whatever is not a definite
SixthGC Junkie (11:23:14 AM): exactallymypoint
DuBpLayR (11:23:21 AM): its a large ass gray area funded by general guide lines
SixthGC Junkie (11:23:30 AM): exactally
DuBpLayR (11:23:33 AM): i only give my opinion
DuBpLayR (11:23:35 AM): and FWD failz
DuBpLayR (11:23:35 AM):
DuBpLayR (11:23:45 AM): no doughnuts not care!
SixthGC Junkie (11:23:47 AM): i never said i like fwd over rwd
DuBpLayR (11:23:52 AM): real sports cars do doughntus

[devilsden97]

i actually agree.. 100%

"real sports cars do doughnuts!"

edit: ohs knows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8NYYOzZuw0...feature=related cut and paste... im lazy

This post has been edited by devilsden97: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:33 AM

[tomazws]

So the Celica is a what car now?

[playr158]

a girl's car....




sport compact car

This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 9, 2008 - 10:54 AM

[manphibian]

So the Celica is a what car now?

It's a Gran turismo.

[x_itchy_b_x]

real sports cars are two seaters.

[Supersprynt]

I will disagree that there can't be any backseats to a sports car. The 300zx 2+2 is not a sports car cuz it has back seats? C'mon now.

[D-Man]

a girl's car....

Funny that you should say that. There was a demographic that said that between 1994-1999, it was 80% or 85% (or something like that) women buying the 6th gens. Very few men actualy.

Now we've got this website, composed mostly of guys... Maybe it's because (most) women dont car for car modding or talk. MOST not all We've got some of the most bad-ass chicks in the world on this site

And some of em are pretty hot too

[playr158]

what D-man you think I would lie?!

[jgreening]

sports car = RWD

and FYI some 2 door sports car Porsches come with "back seats" which are little black pads in the rear for insurance reasons

ITR, celica, integras, civics = sport compact...

sport compact does not = sports car

x2

[supershannon77]

wow Migga I never see u posting ne more...

When i think of a sports car i think back in the day like the cars my dad was building like the gto nova camaro mustang corvette...i think the cars you see at ur normal car show not at like our meets but like an old school car show..also the viper...also when u watch those shows sunday mornings...what channel is that i think bravo...most of those cars = sports cars...I refer to my car and others like it as imports..I cant say y...i def wouldnt call it a sports car n i cant really say why i would class them as imports i just do.

[Supersprynt]

They're imported, thats probably why you'd call them that.

[playr158]

They're imported, thats probably why you'd call them that.

[azian_advanced]

So the Celica is a what car now?

It's a Gran turismo.

then what's mine? Gran Turismo - Sports? lol..
btw, what does that make the ST?

[Taskbot]

Adding my two cents to the debate.

True Sports Cars are stripped down purpose built machines that are honed for the race track rather than daily driving. (Lotus Elise/Exige/Elan, MR-2, NSX, Corvette, Viper, 240Z etc.)

Everything else can fall under other sports related car categories.
GT
Sport Compact
Muscle Car
etc. (whatever else you can think of)


As for driveline, I think the debate is moot. A sports car can put power to any of its 4 wheels however the issue is that RWD is the focus and nobody has released a true FWD drive sports car, however there are some 4WD cars that could be classified as sports cars (Audi R8, Nissan GT-R, varius Porsche models). Typically however, most sports cars DO put power to the rear wheels.

[D-Man]

So the Celica is a what car now?

It's a Gran turismo.

btw, what does that make the ST?

Minor Turismo

EDIT: spelling

This post has been edited by D-Man: Sep 10, 2008 - 9:22 AM

[DEATH]

So the Celica is a what car now?

It's a Gran turismo.

then what's mine? Gran Turismo - Sports? lol..
btw, what does that make the ST?

They just thought Canadians might actually fall for the added "-S" as somehow meaning more sporty They knew us in the USA wuld not be so easily fooled J/P
I agree with the darkside - Our cars are not sports cars, neither is the ITR. The GT4's [Especially the WRC and GrA], STI's, EVO's etc. are sports cars - back seats mean nothing [Tho it can be an obvious indicator]

[playr158]

They just thought Canadians might actually fall for the added "-S" as somehow meaning more sporty They knew us in the USA wuld not be so easily fooled J/P

its so ironic, when Americans are the ones typically jumping at every gimic

[D-Man]

back seats mean nothing [Tho it can be an obvious indicator]

I think it depends on the size of the backseat. A backseat the size of ours, where you couldnt fit a small child (i would know) makes it a possible sports car. Now, My Altima for example, If someone can fit, Especialy Comfortably... Than it's deff not sports material.

Final point, I maxima is, and always will be (regardless of how fast it's modded) It'll always be a Grocery getter. (sorry, i'm on the nissan fourms too, and that argument pops up from time to time.) And so will the altima (regarless of the fact that there is one that has a dyno to prove 433 whp ) That's just an Epic-Grocery Getter. Only belongs on the track to make store runs (as if i had room to talk )

its so ironic, when Americans are the ones typically jumping at every gimic

It's only funny because it's typically true

[Random_Stranger]

Hhmmm..... What makes a sports car?


Simple.


A true sports car gets you laid.




I have a feeling this thread is an ongoing battle of debate. People know what a sports car is, but they also have their debate-able preferences included in the lot. Some of which cars are looked at as real sports cars, and usually end up being a yuppy car that eventually will be expensive while a $8k car ends up being modified and out performs such a waste of money.

This is like debating philosophy, where everyone believes their ideas are the best. I just want to make sure some of you out there know that before dragging this on.

[Supersprynt]

I think your looking entirely too deeply into this.

Sports car = 2 door, RWD, power, sleek & sexy.

/thread.

[azian_advanced]

not sure about the sexy part because some are actually ugly... but that's based on personal opinion. everything else seems about right in my books.

in the end everyone will have their own idea of what a sports car is... to me, there are only 3 parameters that would make a car a 'sports car'.

-RWD simply because it's a more performance-oriented platform (not FWD), although AWD can fit in this category as long as it's not a rally car (ie. GT-R)
-and it also must be a 2 dr.. maybe 4 door if it's an RX8
-and it most definitely will need a high performance engine.

then there are other things one can debate about like having rear seats or not, manual or auto, low suspension, etc etc which are all just 'features' and wouldn't make it more or less of a sports car.

[Rayme]

The rx-8 has 4 doors, its not a sports car (supersprynt's rule)

I always make fun of those making straight rule for what a sports car is, is a e36 m3 a sports car? what about the sedan m3?

the STI and EVO's aren't sports car? Why not?

Some lambo and the GTR are AWD, they're not sports car, not RWD?


IMO, if a car drives like a sports car (dependant on its era) is a sports car. The definition changes with new technologies, anyone saying otherwise is just close minded, if you take the 50's and 60's as the benchmark for sports cars, we all have mega super exotic cars now. A civic type-R can spank a S2000 in a circuit due to its stiff (rough) suspension and peaky engine, despite being FWD. Does that make the s2000 any lesser of a sports car? If a FWD sports compact can spank a "real" sports car, in what kind of world are we? Manufacturers are pushing the limit of engineering and doing all kind of wierd configuration, no wonder people argue over that.

too..much..labels....


Little story:
A friend of mine with an 80s z28 was asked to race by a huy with his SRT-4. He said ok fine, let's race, and when you get there before me stop, when I get there I'll do donuts around you. (see the irony?)

This post has been edited by Rayme: Sep 10, 2008 - 7:24 PM

[Taskbot]

Rayme

Couldn't have said it better myself. (though I tried and failed)

[Akirad1]

lets say this little thing ive thought of: breaking down sports cars into smaller catergories,
Sports Cars: Sport Compact, Exotics, Muscles, Roadsters, Hot Hatch,
since everyone has their own opions of what a sports car is.

[bslik]

my neighbor has a 4th gen supra undergoing a twin turbo swap and we both fit in there plus a girl comfortably laying in the back seat (meant to seat 2 but comfortably 1) so if that supra is not a sports car with a back seat then idk what is

[Supersprynt]

The RX8's "doors" are a loose term. They're like 1/2 suicide doors, not exactly the same as say a Camry. I'd still call an RX8 a sports car.

[Akirad1]

and a rx8 seat 4 adults confortably
i would know my cousin has a 04 rx8

[Supersprynt]

That's nice.

[spolski07]

since when is a "sport compact car" not a sports car?
hey if my insurance is going to make me pay more because i have a "sporty car" ima say i have a sports car

[Supersprynt]

Dude Insurance companies find any reason to charge more. They charge more if your car is red.

[spolski07]

Dude Insurance companies find any reason to charge more. They charge more if your car is red.

this i know i was just tryn to lighten up the mood.

btw guys my insurance got cheaper when i got rid of my 1985 mazda rx7 and got the celica
2 seater rwd "sports car" (rx7) was not a very cheap car to insure at 16

[tomazws]

If there is an argument on what is the slowest sports car (or sporty looking car) in the world, I'd have to say my Celica...