Toyota VS Ford Options

[tomazws]

A Japanese company ( Toyota ) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the ”Rowing Team Quality First Program” with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .

Sadly, The End.

Here's something else to think about: Ford has spent the last thirty years trying to move all of its factories out of the US , claiming they can't make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results for 2007:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Senior managers at Ford are still scratching their heads.

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY.

This post has been edited by tomazws: Nov 13, 2008 - 12:51 PM

[Supersprynt]

I'm sad.

Detroit is a sinking ship.

[Taskbot]

Because its true, it is funny.

Like with this in mind, have you ever met those guys that are hard on for domestics?

My friend fails to acknowledge Toyota and Honda as a "domestic" even though they are made in Ontario (Corolla in Cambridge and Civic in Alliston), whereas the cars he drives, "domestics" were all made outside of Canada AND America.

Of course I'm Canadian and this idea of Domestic and Import is an American idea that seemed to seep over the border. Canada doesn't make Canadian cars.

[RickJamesBish]

But just because a car is built in a certain country doesn't make it a car of that nationality. A car's nationality comes from the brand's source nationality...I.E. Audi was started in Germany by Germans, Lotus in England by English, etc. etc.

Just because the Jetta is manufactured mostly in Mexico doesn't make it Mexican.

[Supersprynt]

Semantics. By this logic a car designed, built and assembled in the US isn't American, because perhaps it's a Toyota.

What if imported a Toyota Cavalier. What is that?

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Nov 13, 2008 - 4:25 PM

[D-Man]

Just because the Jetta is manufactured mostly in Mexico doesn't make it Mexican.

true this. Now an El Camino on the other hand

I like this story. tomazws, got any more?

[Taskbot]

But just because a car is built in a certain country doesn't make it a car of that nationality. A car's nationality comes from the brand's source nationality...I.E. Audi was started in Germany by Germans, Lotus in England by English, etc. etc.

Just because the Jetta is manufactured mostly in Mexico doesn't make it Mexican.

Hahaha I don't think thats the case either.

The 'new' GTO, G8 and G8 Sport truck are Austraillian (sourced from Holden)... are they American because they display the Pontiac emblem, or Australian because they were manufactured and designed by Holden(Vauxhall has stakes on the 'GTO' aswell)

Same with the Saturn Astra (Opel/Vauxhaul) and the Speedster (GM engine, Lotus Engineering)

What would be said about the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe? Is it Japanese or American? Because its built in California along with the Pontiac Vibe, is the Toyota Matrix an American car? The Vibe has a Toyota engine in it, does that make it a Japanese car?

What I mean to say is that with badge engineering and manufacturing being outsourced, and the fact that we're dealing with multi-national corporations that most cars can't be decided by country, especially not the big 3. Ford is sourcing a fair amount of engineering from their agreement with Volvo and Mazda, Chrysler had that great agreement with Daimler-Mercedes that actually got them back on their feet for a little while, and GM is a major multi-national that has so many agreements with different manufactures and so many subsidiaries that it would be impossible to classify it.

They may have been started by Americans in America but the big 3 have branched into huge multi-national corporations, ending the age of Detroit and begining the age of the "world car"

[tomazws]

oh i didn't write that.. i found it on another forum

[RickJamesBish]

Taskbot, they're redabged for another brand...so technically, they're Australian, but being badged under an American name makes THAT version American.

Same with the Saturn/Opel Astra.

[D-Man]

oh i didn't write that.. i found it on another forum

Then found us some more

[Taskbot]

Taskbot, they're redabged for another brand...so technically, they're Australian, but being badged under an American name makes THAT version American.

Same with the Saturn/Opel Astra.

Really I wouldn't see it as such and neither would all of the people I have this debate with. Like Domestic and Import are really loosely defined terms and its all about one's knowledge and perception. With badge engineering its like every car is having an identity crisis. Some car's don't know if they're Japanese, English, German, American, Australlian, South Korean or Sweedish. Some days when the Focus WRC is kicking ass its like "Yay American cars" and other days where its doing piss poor its like "Stupid Europeans, sourcing their platform from Mazda and Volvo." Saying you drive a domestic only really serves to alienate most other people, and the people that say that only do it when it serves the purpose of proving their superiority.

Thats my experience anyways.

For the record, I do have this debate a lot and its strage, especially since I am in Canada. Sometimes I need to remind people that they are driving an import too. (You have no clue how satisfying it is to see the look on someone's face when I say that)

[GriffGirl]

Semantics. By this logic a car designed, built and assembled in the US isn't American, because perhaps it's a Toyota.

What if imported a Toyota Cavalier. What is that?

An abomination that would surely be a catalyst to the failure of Toyota

[Random_Stranger]

Because its true, it is funny.

Like with this in mind, have you ever met those guys that are hard on for domestics?

My friend fails to acknowledge Toyota and Honda as a "domestic" even though they are made in Ontario (Corolla in Cambridge and Civic in Alliston), whereas the cars he drives, "domestics" were all made outside of Canada AND America.

Of course I'm Canadian and this idea of Domestic and Import is an American idea that seemed to seep over the border. Canada doesn't make Canadian cars.

Heck yeah! I live in a town that is split between the new hot rods of today (imports) vs old school all American boys (domestics obviously).

My lil brother is contemplating getting a 91 MR2 Turbo. Now he goes to school with a specific social and racial group of people in this town that make the stereotype, and they dog imports. They asked him about what cars he is in, he said Tuners and they were like "Nah! Ford Trucks all the way!" LOL. My auto shop teacher grew up with Domestics, and he dogs Ford because of their reliability. He sees me sport Toyota all day (Down to even a Toyota Backpack! Yes, I am not lying. If they made Toyota undies, I would by them too!) and always speaks highly of them.


Hey, I know this is off topic (but we are in the off topic thread LOL) what is up with the "JDM" (LOL, yes, I realize Toyota sold a few overseas, but that doesn't change jack $#!T) Caveliers and those Cobalts with JDM Driver badges on them? I seen one today and I was like "WTF?! Foo, stick with your own stuff. GO put a Gitter done sticker on that SOB! Or an American flag!".

What is really the deal with these wanna be JDM American cars?! ARGH! That annoys me. That and people trying to race me or pretend they want to when cars are in front of both of us. Because they don't know my car is slow, and on an open road, unless they know they are in the 400's (HP), they slow down when I drive by and leave me alone when I get ahead (I am against street racing anyways, but we are talking going the speed limit here).

[D-Man]

Semantics. By this logic a car designed, built and assembled in the US isn't American, because perhaps it's a Toyota.

What if imported a Toyota Cavalier. What is that?

An abomination that would surely be a catalyst to the failure of Toyota

WTF is a Toyota Cavalier?

x2 with griff... abomination.... catalyst of.... failure... just like chevy

[DEATH]

Toyota breifly tried to sell the Chevy Cavalier in Japan ["Tried" being the operative term] - this is why some kids who get their handmedown cavaliers attempt to get in on the JDM craze by badging their Cavaliers with TRD etc. TRD did make a rather nice bodykit for it tho - improves the style of the car 200%.
We have a guy like that here in Houston, D-Man. Goes by JDMCAV on Houston Imports - tried to join our crew once too [That's where I draw the line ].

This post has been edited by DEATH: Nov 14, 2008 - 4:58 PM

[D-Man]

Toyota breifly tried to sell the Chevy Cavalier in Japan ["Tried" being the operative term] - this is why some kids who get their handmedown cavaliers attempt to get in on the JDM craze by badging their Cavaliers with TRD etc. TRD did make a rather nice bodykit for it tho - improves the style of the car 200%.
We have a guy like that here in Houston, D-Man. Goes by JDMCAV on Houston Imports - tried to join our crew once too [That's where I draw the line ].

Really? Wow. I knew a guy with a cav back in the day. The damn thing was a rolling disaster waiting to happen. And all of a sudden... it did

But that's good to know. Now i wont look so 'tardish the next time the subject bounces up.

This post has been edited by D-Man: Nov 14, 2008 - 5:06 PM

[njccmd2002]

that is the mistake.

[DEATH]

From that to this:

http://members.shaw.ca/toyota_cavalier/pag...es/page3_11.jpg
I love TRD

This post has been edited by DEATH: Nov 14, 2008 - 5:18 PM

[RickJamesBish]

Still a Cavalier, who cares...then again, I was thinking about getting one.

<---- :fail:

[D-Man]

From that to this:

http://members.shaw.ca/toyota_cavalier/pag...es/page3_11.jpg
I love TRD

It looks like a physically handicapped 4th Gen Supra...

This post has been edited by D-Man: Nov 14, 2008 - 5:25 PM

[DEATH]

You guys act like it's not a dramatic improvement in style - be honest - if Mommy passed you down a Cavalier and someone hooked you up with this kit - you'd be proud as sh*t

[Random_Stranger]

Toyota breifly tried to sell the Chevy Cavalier in Japan ["Tried" being the operative term] - this is why some kids who get their handmedown cavaliers attempt to get in on the JDM craze by badging their Cavaliers with TRD etc. TRD did make a rather nice bodykit for it tho - improves the style of the car 200%.
We have a guy like that here in Houston, D-Man. Goes by JDMCAV on Houston Imports - tried to join our crew once too [That's where I draw the line ].

That's what I say man! Those SRT4's and Cobalts are running lose in my side of town (Honda Heaven LOL) and seem to be interested in joining my crew (yeah I know I am slow, but we have a GSX so gimme a break). I am like "DUDE! Go find an American car crew, because we are Imports. I don't want no JDM Chevy trucks LOL. If I let American cars in, then I might as well let trucks in and make it a freaking free for all and have one big huge picnic. No! I want to see European cars out there as a crew. I want to see American cars like the mustangs as a crew. Then people try to say "Yeah this crew is ughhhhhh, only Nissan 350z and Subaru WRX cuz ugh......... That's what I have" and there is no real theme to that. So I say Imports all out, hell...... Even Hondas if they are done up right. We have a few eg6's we might be interested in, my neighbor for example.

You guys act like it's not a dramatic improvement in style - be honest - if Mommy passed you down a Cavalier and someone hooked you up with this kit - you'd be proud as sh*t

X2 Won't lie there. Beats nothing.

[D-Man]

No, i didn't say that. I said it looks like a retarted supra. Would i rock the snazzle out of it? Yes. Rice is my thing, and that thing is edible w/ soy-sauce and an eggroll

But it still looks like a 'tard version of this!!

CLICKY!!

[RickJamesBish]

An auto Supra? Oh god that's fail.

DEATH, it's certainly "nicer," but it's still a Cavalier. I can top what I dropped in the toilet about ten minutes ago with whipped cream, but that's doesn't mean it's still not a piece of ****.

[D-Man]

Fine then, like this one: CLICKY!!

(damn, i want that one)

[Random_Stranger]

I had a somewhat friend who was at one time the only guy in this town who had a 97 Supra (I was 17 and this foo was like 23 at the time). All the Hondas wanted to race him, and I am sure they would have had a better shot now vs back then. He still never raced them...... Roll bar, body kit, Skyline type spoiler...... All was fine and dandy......... Until they discovered his ride was Automatic! After that..... he was no longer Goddess (I'll explain if you are confused with that term). It became just another car that got him underage girls, until he fled to Mexico before the police could get to him for that very same thing (no not cuz it was automatic, the girls, THE GIRLS!)

This post has been edited by Random_Stranger: Nov 14, 2008 - 5:49 PM

[joehernandez]

I had a somewhat friend who was at one time the only guy in this town who had a 97 Supra (I was 17 and this foo was like 23 at the time). All the Hondas wanted to race him, and I am sure they would have had a better shot now vs back then. He still never raced them...... Roll bar, body kit, Skyline type spoiler...... All was fine and dandy......... Until they discovered his ride was Automatic! After that..... he was no longer Goddess (I'll explain if you are confused with that term). It became just another car that got him underage girls, until he fled to Mexico before the police could get to him for that very same thing (no not cuz it was automatic, the girls, THE GIRLS!)

hahahaha thats a true story hahaha

[njccmd2002]

From that to this:

http://members.shaw.ca/toyota_cavalier/pag...es/page3_11.jpg
I love TRD

hmmm this is anther similar bodykit

[gt_driFFter]

An auto Supra? Oh god that's fail.

What an ignorant statement. Please elaborate.



And no DEATH, I wouldn't ever be proud of a Cavalier. Let alone a Cavalier with a bodykit.

This post has been edited by gt_driFFter: Nov 14, 2008 - 6:56 PM

[Random_Stranger]

From that to this:

http://members.shaw.ca/toyota_cavalier/pag...es/page3_11.jpg
I love TRD

hmmm this is anther similar bodykit

[DEATH]

An auto Supra? Oh god that's fail.

Every high HP Supra I know is auto - alot of them swapped from manual to auto. Do some research and tell me why that is

This post has been edited by DEATH: Nov 14, 2008 - 7:28 PM

[808celica]

so can we used the cay's spoiler on ours?? still TRD right

[daazndood]

fast forward to today and toyotas fastest car is like the matrix or something and ford has the monster mustang =[

[Random_Stranger]

fast forward to today and toyotas fastest car is like the matrix or something and ford has the monster mustang =[

For now. Also note Toyota is No.1 in Japan as far as Auto Industry goes, and No.2 in the USA, Second to possibly GM I am guessing? Yeah. Toyota can afford to bring us on the goody goodies like those lovely 90's. Still though, that monster can destroy itself, a Toyota? Is second best to a diamond, because it will last longer than the marriage! LOL Ok that doesn't say much, but there is no arguing Toyota isn't the least reliable and hands down more reliable than a Ford of any time period.

[Rayme]

fast forward to today and toyotas fastest car is like the matrix or something and ford has the monster mustang =[

For now. Also note Toyota is No.1 in Japan as far as Auto Industry goes, and No.2 in the USA, Second to possibly GM I am guessing? Yeah. Toyota can afford to bring us on the goody goodies like those lovely 90's. Still though, that monster can destroy itself, a Toyota? Is second best to a diamond, because it will last longer than the marriage! LOL Ok that doesn't say much, but there is no arguing Toyota isn't the least reliable and hands down more reliable than a Ford of any time period.

That diamond quote..priceless

This week GM was in the news about how it was running out of money..they are still selling more (if not as much) cars as Toyota worldwide, it makes me wonder WHY they are failing at such a fast rate versus toyota..as they have just as much sales. I keep hearing about the high cost of labor in the USA (UAW union) and the pension plan etc.... But GM is worldwide and they do have alot of other plants around the world...like Toyota...

[tomazws]

That TRD'ed Cavalier does look pretty nice... but if you drive that in the States, all you get might be laughters...

[Random_Stranger]

That TRD'ed Cavalier does look pretty nice... but if you drive that in the States, all you get might be laughters...

agreed

[RickJamesBish]

What an ignorant statement. Please elaborate.

I'd rather have a stick. /ignorance

An auto Supra? Oh god that's fail.

Every high HP Supra I know is auto - alot of them swapped from manual to auto. Do some research and tell me why that is

Drag racing.

[richee3]

Sorry to bring up a month old thread, but I'm bored and reading through all of these.

That Cav with the Toyota emblem on the hood just looks wrong. I don't even have to look at the emblem, it's there in my peripherals and just ruins the car. That TRD body kit does dress up the Cavvi a little bit, but given the choice between a "TRD Toyota Cavalier" or my Celica, I think the choice is clear.

A lot of Supras are swapped to autos because of the turbo. An automatic transmission decreases turbo lag. [smartness over/] Now somebody knowledgeable in how turbos work explain that one to me. I'm not even going to ask the guys that told me that, they use big words. I use big words too, but I don't use Turbo-big words. So if somebody could dumb it down a lot and explain how an auto decreases turbo lag over a REALLY fast shifter in a manual, I'd love to hear it PM me.

[mikew04]

If that's true then I imagine that it is caused by a greater load being put on the engine.
Autos are mainly for bracket racing- where a consistent time gets you wins.

[richee3]

Yep, I know for a fact that it's true. I've found (and now that I'm talking about it, I'm gonna go find it again just because I love that video) a video of a Supra on Youtube where they swapped a Chevy truck trans into the car. I'll see if I can't find it again. I have even heard of some turbocharged cars using transmissions from trucks from even the 50's just because of how they were geared. But apparently the auto trans allows you to keep your foot in the throttle and never lose boost pressure but I'm not sure how that works.

Ah! Got it. Here, ladies and gentlemen, is a mkIV Supra using a Chevrolet automatic transmission. Listen to how many times it shifts- only once

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Ian-Pol...-872_150274.htm

Don't let your peepees swell too much.

This post has been edited by richee3: Dec 11, 2008 - 1:18 AM

[DEATH]

That TRD body kit does dress up the Cavvi a little bit, but given the choice between a "TRD Toyota Cavalier" or my Celica, I think the choice is clear.

Well duh - that wasn't my point - it does look much better than the average Cavi tho right?

So if somebody could dumb it down a lot and explain how an auto decreases turbo lag over a REALLY fast shifter in a manual, I'd love to hear it PM me.

It doesn't - it just takes out the human element - the capability of mistake. A good driver can still slightly out perform the auto - but only just barely. The auto just deletes a variable.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Dec 11, 2008 - 1:15 AM

[richee3]

That TRD body kit does dress up the Cavvi a little bit, but given the choice between a "TRD Toyota Cavalier" or my Celica, I think the choice is clear.

Well duh - that wasn't my point - it does look much better than the average Cavi tho right?

So if somebody could dumb it down a lot and explain how an auto decreases turbo lag over a REALLY fast shifter in a manual, I'd love to hear it PM me.

It doesn't - it just takes out the human element - the capability of mistake. A good driver can still slightly out perform the auto - but only just barely. The auto just deletes a variable.

For the first part of that, touche, sir! It DOES look much better than the average Cavi. For the second part, thanks! I've had about 4 people tell me that and not one person has been able to explain to me in terms that I understood how the auto could outperform a manual.

[DEATH]

nvm

This post has been edited by DEATH: Dec 11, 2008 - 1:51 AM

[playr158]

errr no auto decrease turbo lag and increases performance in turbo cars not because it takes out the human element.


Automatics are better in drag racing with boosted cars because they don't loose power between shifts. torque is consistently applied to the motor and there is no loss between shifts. You can stay at WOT the entire time. In a manual transmission no matter how hard and fast you shift, there is a powerless free point where clutch is in and the motor is allowed to drop and blow off boost. Automatics don't do this.

thats why.

a 5 spd transmission vs an auto (all else being equal) Turbo supra will lose 99.9% of the time to the auto.
a human can't get anywhere near the speed of the modern day shift speed of a auto. That is unless you are down to milliseconds in shift time.

This post has been edited by playr158: Dec 11, 2008 - 7:39 AM

[njccmd2002]

wow, interesting info. so why is it that manuals are more popular for tuners.

[Helix]

Not all automatics are the same... You can't compare a 10 year old auto transmission to a state of the art Ferrari F1 or Dual clutch one (semi-automatic)
Latest autos have "billions of settings" to adjust it to your driving "mood". Older transmissions used to take ages to shift and more important: you wouldn't want the gearbox to upshift when you'r around a corner building revs... That said, they would never miss a shift though...
I believe that an experienced driver could easily outperform the older autos. As for the newer high tech ones, it is a whole different story...

P.S. I believe the gearboxes they use on drag races are sequential and not automatic... I can't believe an automatic can take all than torque...

You can do a search at youtube for drag race in car videos and see that most drive stick and have a shift light.

This post has been edited by Helix: Dec 11, 2008 - 9:36 AM

[playr158]

you can put very very strong tq converters into an automatic.

but manual transmissions are suited to racing that involves turns where as autos wouldn't perform as well here.

autos > for drag
MT > for turns


SMG & DSG > all

This post has been edited by playr158: Dec 11, 2008 - 9:28 AM

[creis]

A friend and engineer at boeing told me once, the only major diffarance between the big car copmanies is not the designes or what company degisned what part of the car but the level of tolarance in manufacturing. meaning how close the car was built to the original design (ex. machined within .001 of a inch to the original design or within .00001 of an inch to the original.) I cant remember the exact numbers but ford had the biggest margin followed by dodge with GM having the stricktest/best. point being that just because 2 cars are the same design does not mean there the same quality.

Just food for though.