Clutchless Shifting, good or bad Options

[aww_shoook_em]

when I used to be into RSX's before, I remember coming across a media thread that had a video with clutchless shifting

out of nowhere, I asked my friend about clutchless shifting.. he told me, it kinda takes practice and its less wear-out for your clutch
and stuff.. now that Ive heard the positive things about it, I was wondering if there were bad things about it...

if theres like 2 things that are bad about clutchless shifting, then I wont trip about it.. but if it comes to more than 3+up
then Ima have to break the habit of it..

so 6gc fam, what would it be?? YE -or- NAY on clutchless shifting

(I'd rather not base this on polls because I like my information straight to the facts)

[devilsden97]

nay. its called RPM matching...

i remember haveing a talk with Presure2 one morning when we were at a meet, we were heading to Dunkin Donuts, and he was showing me how he could RPM match his motor to his trans on his Civic...said he tried it on the celica, but couldnt get it to go in without grinding.....

[richee3]

I know that truck drivers simply don't have time to use their clutch when they are in town. Those trucks are pretty slow when they have a good load, and using the clutch only slows them down since they are geared so low. They'd be clutching more than they'd be driving. It's not bad at all, as long as you can do it right. Truck drivers, for the most part, only use their clutch to get the truck moving then after that they don't use it at all.

There are quite a few truck drivers in my family

Anyhoo, I have only attemped it from 3rd to 4th in my car. I'm not brave enough for anything else lol.

Just a little off topic, but aww_shook_em, you used to be into RSX's and are now into 6gc's? What happened there?? Lol. I love our cars and all, but I'd take a type-S any day since I can't afford a 3SGTE lol.

[x_itchy_b_x]

if you can do it correctly then its fine.
if you cant then your doing some damage.
i just stick to using the clutch

[aww_shoook_em]

well yeah, same here on the attempt with the 3rd and 4th gear..

I tried out putting 4th to 5th but it didnt come out right... grinded a little and I know I was done
with "RPM matching" (thanks devilsden97 )

Im gonna attempt it more, but Ima use someone else's 6th gen pwahahah

Just a little off topic, but aww_shook_em, you used to be into RSX's and are now into 6gc's? What happened there?? Lol. I love our cars and all, but I'd take a type-S any day since I can't afford a 3SGTE lol.

oh man, its kinda of a long story but to make it short:
-spotted a type-s
-called up the car lot
-said they just sold it
-I mourned for 2 sec.
-saw my future car
-fell in love, bought it

[richee3]

Hahaha yeah, I'd destroy my trans if I tried anything BUT 3rd to 4th lol. So I'm with Itchy, I'll just keep using my clutch lol.

As far as the RS goes, I know what you mean.. Totalled one 6th gen out and spent the next 3 months of my life going through that exact same thing. Almost had a Supra too! For only 1,000 more than what I actually ended up spending. My agreement with the parents was I'll pay for all of this car or half of something else (long story, many stipulations. Won't go into detail here.) But I found a sweet pearl white Supra (NA, of course. Lame.) just 60 miles from me for $14,000. My half would have been $7,000. But instead I got this P.O.S. beater Celica for $7,400. And the way I had the Supra deal worked out, I would have only paid $1,000 more than what I did for this Celica. It's a long sob story that ended with my parents not wanting to drive 60 miles to get a car and instead driving 300 to get a beater. It's a work in progress though.

Back on topic! I don't see anything wrong with what I now know is called RPM matching, as long as you can do. And like you said, practice in someone else's car

This post has been edited by richee3: Dec 2, 2008 - 11:42 PM

[epocsirhc]

Sorry to hear about that missed opportunity

[_mikeE]

Done it, i've no problems but it does kinda give a notchy feeling while shifting though; not entirely smooth. I do it at 2k rpm's and it's worked fine for me. But 1st gear will be a bit more. If i remember correctly, my order was 1st gear 20km/h---2nd gear 30 km/h--3rd gear 42 km/h (can't remember entirely)--5th gear 55km/h.
Would I recommend it? not really although if u can do it right, there's no harm but it'd itch you to look at your tach/speedometer too much and not more so on the road. Sure ppl say they do it by ear, but there's always room for misjudgement. Cool thing to do though to show off to your friends because they always have the "WTF" look and asking, "don't u have to push the clutch?" (I love doing telling them to watch my left foot)
*edit* i think my synchros are bad that might explain the notchy feeling, just letting you know.

This post has been edited by _mikeE: Dec 3, 2008 - 12:13 AM

[stetsonaw]

had a 91 ranger 5 speed i was able to do it in, only tried once with the celi... the clutch is bad enough as it is

[GEpower]

That's bad, mkay.

I'd say my gearbox is worth more to me then my clutch, so the answer is simple.

[Dr_Tweak]

When I drive a manual I never use the clutch (except for getting going in first gear of course). I do it without even thinking now. When done properly it does not wear the clutch or the synchros in the tranny at all, but you have to perfectly match every shift. The part people forget is the rev-matching, they try to just shift across from one gear to the other without pausing in-between and rev-matching. I once wrote a guide on how to do this but I will tell you right now that it's hard to explain, you kind of need to see it done. So, if you're going to try this, it's at your own risk.

For the vast majority of drivers out there, just using the clutch is the way to go. This is only for car people that are into this sort of thing... or for people driving a car with a bad clutch or bad synchros LOL (prodigy515, any comment?) Sorry for the spacing, this was copied/pasted from an email that I wrote.

How to shift without using the clutch. This is perfectly safe for your
car (in fact better than using the clutch) IF it's done properly. It
takes a little bit of practice, but the important thing to remember is
that it should be very smooth, if you are using a lot of force to try
to shift then you're doing it wrong.

First of all, you HAVE to use the clutch to get going in first gear,
no way around it (try to avoid coming to a complete stop). Once you
are moving in first gear, you take the tranmission OUT of gear by
first getting the engine "neutral". That means that you are neither
accelerating (on the gas) or decelerating (totally off the gas). This
normally requires giving a little bit of gas since coming off the gas
completely usually puts a reverse load on the transmission (engine
braking). Once you are "neutral", you should be able to pull the
transmission out of gear without touching the clutch at all. It should
move smoothly with no pops, clunks or grinds.

Once you're out of gear, you either need to upshift or downshift.
Either way, you must make the RPMs of the engine be whatever they WILL
be when you shift. For example when upshifting, you are driving in 1st
gear and you are at about 3500 rpm. You pull the transmission out of
gear as described in the first step. You let off the gas and allow the
RPMs to drop to about, say 2500 rpm, and then you immediately slip the
transmission into 2nd gear without touching the clutch. It should go
in smoothly with no pops or grinds, if you are putting a lot of force
into it, stop, because you're not at the right RPM. Don't be too
concerned about watching the tach and figuring out EXACTLY what RPM
you need to be at, just do it by feel and it will come naturally after
a couple times. If you miss the shift window (the tach drops down to
idle speed), then you can simply tap the gas to bring the RPMs back up
to where you need them, and then shift into the gear you want.

Downshifting is a little more tricky. You start the same way by
getting the engine neutral and pulling the transmission out of gear.
Now since you're downshifting, the RPMs need to be HIGHER than when
you pulled it out of gear. So pull it out of gear, and then rev the
engine up to about where it needs to be, and then slide the
transmission into gear. For example, you're driving along in 3rd gear
at 2000 rpm and you need to downshift. Pull the transmission out of
gear, rev the engine up to say, 3500 rpm (without touching the clutch
at all), and stick it into 2nd gear. Again, don't worry about the math
so much as the feel of it. Again, if it isn't going in and you miss
the shift window, just rev it up again to where it needs to be and
shift it in.

When you're slowing down for a light or stop sign, it may be easier to
just pull the transmission into neutral and leave it there rather than
downshift every gear. Also, if you can shift back down to first gear,
try to keep rolling instead of coming to a complete stop to avoid
having to use the clutch (just don't get caught)

If you get good at shifting without the clutch, you will soon find
that you don't want to use the clutch anymore even when it is working
properly. Personally, I never use the clutch after first gear when I
drive stick, I'm so used to it that I don't even think about it.

It sure freaks people out when I drive their cars though!

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Dec 3, 2008 - 9:17 AM

[garin]

probably a bad idea to shift without the clutch. don't do unless you have to, or if you know what your doing.

This post has been edited by garin: Dec 3, 2008 - 9:17 AM

[samir0189]

I can do this kind of shifting with my celi both upshifting and downshifting, all the way down to first gear too (there is a moment RIGHT before you hit 0mph that the shifter will just "pop" into first). It takes alot of practice though, and I stopped recently cause idk if it was damaging. If its not then WOOHOO! lol.

[Razgriz]

It seems to have been answered in this thread already (If you don't grind it's fine... If you do, Knock it off. )

But I thought I would share my experiences. Yes I can clutchless upshift just fine, downshifting I work on every so often.
Not to say I let the synchro do all the work on the downshifts though, I still get it close via the gas pedal but I clutch just to assure no grinding.

Anyways, when I first started shifting without the clutch, I wasn't trying to save the clutch or the synchros, or trying to impress friends. It actually stems from a real bad habit of mine:

When I drive I like to hang my arm out the window. Well everytime I had to shift with my right hand, I needed to pull my arm inside the car to hold the wheel with my left. Very annoying So I decided I would make good use of my left knee to hold the wheel for that short second that my hand was away shifting. Granted I could no longer operate the clutch pedal while doing this, so after about 30 minutes of trial and error on a fairly vacant road I managed to get it down pretty flawlessly. I've been good since.

[terbear4god4life]

try not pressing the clutch down that much and doing it

[99Celica]

Good thing I work as a valet so I can practice on other peoples car's instead of mine

[97celiman]

this sounds like a question for car talk guys!!!
(insert superhero theme song)

[aww_shoook_em]

I havent tried out downshifting.. and Im afraid to.. HAH

its better if I risked it and stick to just upshifting.. or stick with the classic, og-made, CLUTCH

[95st-celica]

lol...been there done that...droped the trans and they arent fun to replace over and over...i did it in my honda but only a couple times when i was racing...its not good and it wears on all the internals of the trans and syncros and **** like that...just use your clutch

[delusionz]

Am I doing it right if I ...

Rev through the gear with a steady amount of throttle,
gently tug the gear shifter towards neutral in a single motion at the same time as my foot smoothly comes off the gas.

Gently tug the shifter towards the next gear, as my foot gradually goes back down on the accelerator the engine sort of "sucks" the next gear into place for lack of a better term...

????

I've heard that this is better for motorcycle racing when perfected, would this technique improve racing performance (ie, cut time from a qtr mile run) ??????

you do for a moment stop accelerating while changing with the clutch ,, but doesnt dumping a redline pinged clutch on the upshift more than make up for it?

[Dr_Tweak]

There's absolutely no reason to do this when racing, the using clutch is always the fastest way to shift.

Rev-matching is just something to do for fun, or if you're lazy Like Razgriz said, if it grinds, you're doing it wrong.

-Doc

[aww_shoook_em]

mostly for lazy people.. xD

[tomazws]

I'm chicken, I have no money to replace anything, and I will stick with using my clutch....

[zero07]

Tried this yesterday after reading Tweaks how-to, it was pretty easy, I must say it came pretty natural to me. Cool!
Probably not gonna use it very much... i like the clutchy race car feel, moreso on twisties!

[aww_shoook_em]

I'm chicken, I have no money to replace anything, and I will stick with using my clutch....

I think its time you become a rooster and try it out... hahahha xP

but yeah, I mean, if you try it out, I would say, it would be kinda worth it..
but it hecka up to you.. if you know you cant, or wont do it.. just dont do it..

but to try it out is a must.. if stoopid hondas can do it, yotas can do it.. ESPECIALLY our own 6th gens ^_^

This post has been edited by aww_shoook_em: Dec 5, 2008 - 11:28 PM

[99Celica]

I tried it out and it's pretty easy although it felt awkward. I had trouble performing it while starting at higher rev than casual, it felt like there's a threshold that you must stay in for it to work.

[Dr_Tweak]

I tried it out and it's pretty easy although it felt awkward. I had trouble performing it while starting at higher rev than casual, it felt like there's a threshold that you must stay in for it to work.

That's a good observation, and very true. The higher you rev the more accurate and precise you need to be to make the shift. This is why clutchless shifting is more popular with vehicles that have diesel engines, which have a narrow powerband low on the RPM range.

-Doc

[RickJamesBish]

Does this really make any sense for everyday use? I've never even heard of it, so it can't be all that practical.

[presure2]

Does this really make any sense for everyday use? I've never even heard of it, so it can't be all that practical.

no, especially if you dont know what your doing.

[richee3]

Does this really make any sense for everyday use? I've never even heard of it, so it can't be all that practical.

If you're a truck driver, then yes. But since our cars are about the farthest thing from a semi, it really doesn't make sense to do it unless you can do it well.

[99Celica]

I tried it out and it's pretty easy although it felt awkward. I had trouble performing it while starting at higher rev than casual, it felt like there's a threshold that you must stay in for it to work.

That's a good observation, and very true. The higher you rev the more accurate and precise you need to be to make the shift. This is why clutchless shifting is more popular with vehicles that have diesel engines, which have a narrow powerband low on the RPM range.

-Doc

cool good to know, the dr. can answer anything

[samir0189]

I wouldn't say its a good way to drive around daily, the clutch is the quickest way to switch gears. BUT this is useful to know and to have good practice with just in case your clutch was giving trouble or stopped working, you would still be able to get around town or to a mechanic or whatever without towing.

[nics]

tried practicing it for left foot braking. still grinds sometimes on the forth though...

[aww_shoook_em]

...still grinds sometimes on the forth though...

when coming from 3rd to 4th.. pull it, place and hold to where youre gonna shift, wait about 3 seconds and then
it should slide into place..

but yeah, I do this when Im on the highway.. kind of not a safe place to do it but I tried it out when there are no cars around me..

[Hanyo]

no clutch = good
double clutch = good

single clutch (driving normally)= bad?

[nics]

...still grinds sometimes on the forth though...

when coming from 3rd to 4th.. pull it, place and hold to where youre gonna shift, wait about 3 seconds and then
it should slide into place..

but yeah, I do this when Im on the highway.. kind of not a safe place to do it but I tried it out when there are no cars around me..

sometimes it doesnt grind. need to pratice it with out jerking too much. more smoother when shifting around 3500 rpm.

[Dr_Tweak]

no clutch = good
double clutch = good

single clutch (driving normally)= bad?

Shifting normally is perfectly fine, and recommended for most drivers.

[jimmykay]

I was playing around with this over the weekend a little too.

Thanks for the write up doc, it pretty accurately describes how it works.
you can also put a little pressure on the stick to start to push it in the next gear, and as soon as you ease yourr rpms get into range, then the stick sorta falls into place. and it seems much easier to play around with in the 3-4-5 range as opposed to the 1-2-3 range.

[Dr_Tweak]

Sure

Yeah I might have forgotten to mention that, first gear is probably the most difficult to get because it's so sensitive to minor throttle movements. I like how you described it, the stick sorta falls into place when you get it right

-Doc

[stetsonaw]

double clutching? looost.

[aww_shoook_em]

...still grinds sometimes on the forth though...

when coming from 3rd to 4th.. pull it, place and hold to where youre gonna shift, wait about 3 seconds and then
it should slide into place..

but yeah, I do this when Im on the highway.. kind of not a safe place to do it but I tried it out when there are no cars around me..

sometimes it doesnt grind. need to pratice it with out jerking too much. more smoother when shifting around 3500 rpm.

jerk it a little.. haha, no homo

[Tigawoods]

the funniest thing happened the other day (i forgot to post this earlier) about an hour or two after reading this thread i went out to get something. i was driving with my hand resting on the shifter in 3rd. i must have been putting too much pressure on it because when i went to shift to 4th i let off the gas and right before i put in the clutch it slipped right into 4th with no problems.