Fixing a 2nd gen 3sgte harness / preping for my swap, no, its not going in Jenns car, its going in MINE! ;) Options

[presure2]

so yea,
as most of ya know, we recently did up a 3rd gen swap for jim and as "payment" he gave me his 2nd gen setup.
as most of ya also know, this setup was originally RJB23's car, which was pretty much a mess from the day jim and shannon bought it.
Click me for details of that story

so once we got the 2nd gen motor up here, it has been sitting on a stand, waiting its turn.
i finally got around to getting the harness off, and am starting to get it cleaned, stripped, repaired, rerouted, rewrapped, and reloomed.
like everything else about the swap in that car, this engine harness was no diffrent, and in defense to the guy who did it (IIRC DGperformace did it) it did work, it was just routed and wrapped all crazy, and the ECU end basicly looked like a birds nest from people troubleshooting the ecu and wiring while it was in the car.
so i started tearing into it, and dustin came by last night and helped me get the interior plugs sorted out, since there was lots of "dead" (wires that go to nowhere) wires in the harness.
i also removed all the stuff i wont need or use, including all the ac stuff, TVIS, TVSV, ect.
once that was done, i went about cleaning and fixing any loose or broken wires, (there were a few, one of which wouldnt allow the car to start with the key...lmao) and rerouting and rewrapping it, getting it ready to be reloomed.
here are a few pics of how that is going.

first, the before. sorry for the blurry pic, its the only one i took..lol



this wire was in the harness that was routed behind the intake manifold, instead of inside of it, like it should be, and chaffed on the IM until it broke..just so happens this is the wire that tells the starter to crank. yes, jim, this really is why your car wouldnt start with the key! lmao



how the ECU side of the harness looks now:



and some of the leftovers:


and just for refrence, a pic of what a stock USDM 3s harness looks like, for an idea of what this one should look like when its done.


ill keep updating this thread and adding pics as i go along and continue with the project.

[njccmd2002]

hey now that you bring it up. Wiring is the same for all swaps. Just different routes right. Just need to find the exact diagram.

What does it entail overall. moving the order of the pins in the plug, going from one place to another?

Can yo just post like a general of whts involved. Im assumming its just a basic rerouting of the wires. Just have to know where, right?

i would like to see that harness finished. Good job.

[Dr_Tweak]

Nice work. LOL, good old DG, huh?

[x_itchy_b_x]

haha thats classic.

You inspired me


This post has been edited by x_itchy_b_x: Dec 25, 2008 - 12:27 AM

[lagos]

In DGs defence I can tell you that this looks like all RJBs fault.
When DG helped me with my harness, we had an understanding that I would unloom and reloom it on my own, just in case i wanted to run things differently or had to troubleshoot something. It seems like RJB didn't do a proper job relooming the harness and didn't put a lot of the plastic protective tubing around the wiring. Not to mention that he didn't think to run the harness in front of the intake manifold and not behind it.

Manny, don't forget to eliminate that fuel pump relay if your not using your resistor pack. If you don't then its only a matter of time till it fries on you.

Currently working on a 3s harness myself too...


This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 25, 2008 - 12:45 AM

[x_itchy_b_x]

Hahaha were all working on harness wtf. we should have had a harness party.

[lagos]

hey now that you bring it up. Wiring is the same for all swaps. Just different routes right. Just need to find the exact diagram.

What does it entail overall. moving the order of the pins in the plug, going from one place to another?

Can yo just post like a general of whts involved. Im assumming its just a basic rerouting of the wires. Just have to know where, right?

i would like to see that harness finished. Good job.

There is nothing basic about it.
You are trying to run an engine from a 5th gen, in your 6th gen car, so almost everything is different. But to give you an idea, you have to rewire the 3s harness to use the 5s fuse box and all of the plugs that interface with the rest of the car.

I might do a little write up (I've wanted to do one for like 4yrs now), but be warned ... this is really not something you should do if you don't know how to read wiring diagrams or are good at soldering/wiring. I'm usually a big supporter of people doing their own work, and learning about their car, but this is one area that you should probably outsource to someone like DrTweak.

Hahaha were all working on harness wtf. we should have had a harness party.

I'll bring the heat shrink and solder, you bring the hookers and coke.

[Dr_Tweak]

Wait, hookers? (puts on shoes)

Yeah Manny, I was going to ask if you are going to route the harness out the other side of the intake manifold housing.... like the USDM 3SGTE harness. That's how we route ours anyway, comes out pretty nice

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Dec 25, 2008 - 12:58 AM

[x_itchy_b_x]

I'll bring the heat shrink and solder, you bring the hookers and coke.

Deal.

[presure2]

Wait, hookers? (puts on shoes)

Yeah Manny, I was going to ask if you are going to route the harness out the other side of the intake manifold housing.... like the USDM 3SGTE harness. That's how we route ours anyway, comes out pretty nice

-Doc

wait...theres HOOKERS???

yea tweek, its just the way it "should" be done...
like art said, in dg's defense, im pretty sure he didnt wrap and route the harness...but then again, with how he assembled it, there wasnt much choice but to run it the way it was.
looking at it all apart, i dont see why he extended it so long...why not just route it properly, and it seems like it would be just long enough with just extending a few wires. right tweak?
my biggest complaint about his work is just all the leftover crap..i pulled prolly 15+ wires that just went nowhere, and did nothing, never mind the dead plugs..lol

so art to remove the fpr i just take the wires and attach them together, right?

[presure2]

hey now that you bring it up. Wiring is the same for all swaps. Just different routes right. Just need to find the exact diagram.

What does it entail overall. moving the order of the pins in the plug, going from one place to another?

Can yo just post like a general of whts involved. Im assumming its just a basic rerouting of the wires. Just have to know where, right?

i would like to see that harness finished. Good job.

the one good thing about this harness, is as hacked together as it was, it DID work, so everything was pretty much done for me, i just had to go back and clean everything up.

for someone who dont know the EWD books very well, or doesnt understand why, and how these systems work, my how to would look somthing like this:

remove 5s harness from engine.
remove 3s harness from engine.
get a box, and put them in it.
mail it to tweak, and if you have to, pay him extra to reloom it like factory, with payment.
wait for it to come back.
install 3sgte conversion harness.
trust me, you dont wanna get into this stuff unless your ready for a long hard road if you dont know exactly what your trying to do.
a 3rd gen swap is much easier in this respect, just a matter of repinning a handfull of wires, and adding a relay or 2 if you dont get a full clip.

i added in a pic in my first post of the old usdm 3s harness i had back in the day, for refrence on what the harness im working on should kinda end up looking like in the end.

[_Jim_]

LOL, OMG Manny......what a mess.

[99GT]

Hey Lagos, for two the white wires that goes to the alternator. Did you have to remove that from the big main wire? They both came together on one ring terminal correct?

Manny is there an easy way to take out the harness? Or do I have to remove the intake manifold?

This post has been edited by 99GT: Dec 25, 2008 - 9:40 AM

[njccmd2002]

There is nothing basic about it.
You are trying to run an engine from a 5th gen, in your 6th gen car, so almost everything is different. But to give you an idea, you have to rewire the 3s harness to use the 5s fuse box and all of the plugs that interface with the rest of the car.

I might do a little write up (I've wanted to do one for like 4yrs now), but be warned ... this is really not something you should do if you don't know how to read wiring diagrams or are good at soldering/wiring. I'm usually a big supporter of people doing their own work, and learning about their car, but this is one area that you should probably outsource to someone like DrTweak.

i love doing this crap. sounds like a lot of fun. well it will have to wait.

BTW to me its basic.

[lagos]

Manny... to ditch the fuel pump relay, take the 3 blue wires and solder them together. Then you will have 1 wire left over (goes to the ecu), just wrap that up or remove it from the harness. The fuel pump relay should only be there if your going to use the resistor pack. If not, ditch it because it will end up sending full voltage through a really thin gauge wire and will end up burning out the realy.

[lagos]

99GT, there are 2 wires that go from the alternators ring terminal, all the way through the harness, and then split off into 3 wires that go to your fuse box.



The best thing to do is not to cut those and just take them out of the 6th gen harness and loom them in with the 3sgte harness. That way you dont have to try to solder those thick wires.

If you want to take out the whole harness, its pretty simple. You just have to remove the throttle body, sometimes possibly the fuel rail (though I have gotten it past the rail without removing it before). Then get under the car and unplug a few things from the back of the motor, and the harness will slide right out.

Edit: actually, you have a 5sfe right? Then you'll also have to take your valve cover off to get the harness out.

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 25, 2008 - 10:32 AM

[99GT]

My wires are burnt completely in two so I have to replace them. Damn it.

[presure2]

Manny... to ditch the fuel pump relay, take the 3 blue wires and solder them together. Then you will have 1 wire left over (goes to the ecu), just wrap that up or remove it from the harness. The fuel pump relay should only be there if your going to use the resistor pack. If not, ditch it because it will end up sending full voltage through a really thin gauge wire and will end up burning out the realy.

perfect.
thanks.

[lagos]

My wires are burnt completely in two so I have to replace them. Damn it.

You could attempt to just repair that section by cutting off the burnt out wiring and joining the fresh wiring together. Then add on an extra alternator wire to help beef up your wiring like so...
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=64220

[WannabeGT4]

Nice to see people doing it the right way. It's been a couple years since I did mine but if you want some help with the write up Lagos let me know.

[lagos]

^ will do!

[presure2]

goddamnit i hate the way this harness was put together.

it made SO much more work for me, i basicly have to cut and rewire every wire in this harness because of how long it was.

that said, once its done, its gonna be CLEAN.

no unused plugs, no unneeded wires, nothing behind the intake manifold, (other than the manifold ground and knock sensor)

when this swap gets done it will be one of the cleanest 2nd gen swaps on 6gc.


a couple pics of the progress.

first the extra wire i needed to cut out because of the way dave lengthed the harness.



most of those taken care of, the wires that are to the right of the pic are wires that need to go back thru the harness to the ignitor plug, AFM, waterneck ect.
you can also see the plug that i also relocated for the map sensor to the passanger side of the car, the way it is on a 6th gen harness.



art/tweak can you tell me what this power wire plug is for? its located at the starter plugs.

[95celgt]

i remember that one, it didn't really go any where, but yea lets see what tweak has to say

[presure2]

i remember that one, it didn't really go any where, but yea lets see what tweak has to say

thats exactly what i needed to hear, i was 99% sure it was a dead plug, just wanted to make sure before i pull it off.

[lagos]

Im looking at my harness right now...
So on the JDM car the harness goes from the right of the injector plastic, to interior of the car.
So for the usdm car, do you have to bend the harness in half to make it come out of the left of the injectors and then extend the wires to things like the afm, coil, diag box, etc...?

Im a little confused with the routing because I unwrapped this harness a little too much.
I think Im going to have to take this out to the car and mock it up when I'm done with the wiring.

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 27, 2008 - 9:35 PM

[devilsden97]

no to interupt the amazingly high level of electronics talk going on, but this really is amazing.

2 guys, 1 girl. (itchys the chick) working on there harnesses at once. and helping eachother out.

just amazing


good luck to u all

[Batman722]

post more pics !!!!!!!!!?!!!??!??!?!!!!!

[lagos]

I ran into something that I cant figure out. Plug EA1 has a blue wire on pin 16, yet I can't find any mention of what this wire is for in any of my books. Anyone have a clue what its does? It might be something year specific, and thats why its not in my book.

Sorry for jacking your thread with my own questions Manny. If its a problem, I can start a new one. Oh and thanks to this thread, you motivated me to start working on this thing. I was slacking...big time, but now that I started on it, Im actually having a lot of fun with it.

[presure2]

art, the blue wire is for the fan switch in the radiator in ST's.
for some reason it routes that way, the GT's dont.
ill post a pic in a few of what the harness looks like now.

my harness is routed just like a 5s harness now, art.

it starts at the diagnostics box, ignitor and coil (i moved the map sensor to the stock 5s location, then goes to the waterneck, then some wires go the the fuse box, the rest go up thru the manifold, and into the boot on the other side, just like a stock harness.

i had to cut and splice a few wires as i went, to get the rest of the wires to be able to "flip", then cut out all the extra wire out (which sucked because of how dave extended it, once i had it all going the right way.

[presure2]

as promised, a few pics.
the harness is 99% finished here, just need to finish wrap it, and get some convoluted tubing.

what a bitch. im not sure exactly what approach tweak takes when doing this conversion for people, but whatever it is, just pay the man.
its worth it. and pay him extra to loom your harness in the proper order, so that you dont end up with a harness that looked like RJB's.

this is what it looks like now:



the pile of extra wire....look dan, weight savings!!!!!!!!!



and finally the tools i used to do this:
pictured left to right are:
bluepoint butane soldering iron: man, this thing will solder anything. as you can see in the pic, it has interchangeable tips, a few diffrent soldering ones, and heat shrink one and a little blow torch tip.
it heats up FAST, and is temp adjustable, and gets hot enough to solder basicly any wire in a harness, i had to do a couple of the thicker battery ones (like the alternator ones) and this thing got it done in seconds. there is no way my old 40W plug in deal would have been able to handle that.
bluepoint wirestripper / crimper a good wirestripper is a must for a job like that
upper right is the craftsman mulitmeter it has a "continuity check" feature that i use to check each system as i wired it back in to make sure it worked.
lower right: cornwell import terminal tool kit this kit will remove any pin from any plug on imports. (the safety pin pictured on the case works as well..lol)
and a whole crap load of shrink wrap. lmao

[lagos]

I've been raving about those butane soldering pens for years. I love mind so much, I bought a second one.
Where did you get yours from? Yours looks a lot nicer then mine.

[95st-celica]

glad to see its getting done, Art.. im excited to put this thing together, and hopefully one day, i'll understand and learn enough to be able to do the harness myself.....great work so far the both of yous...i can just imagine the PITA it is

[Dr_Tweak]

Manny... to ditch the fuel pump relay, take the 3 blue wires and solder them together. Then you will have 1 wire left over (goes to the ecu), just wrap that up or remove it from the harness. The fuel pump relay should only be there if your going to use the resistor pack. If not, ditch it because it will end up sending full voltage through a really thin gauge wire and will end up burning out the realy.

It's easier than that actually. There should be one (factory) wire, blue/black, coming from the circuit opening relay going to one of the interior plug. FP (diagnostic block) is spliced into that. Just leave it all factory and don't touch it.

goddamnit i hate the way this harness was put together.

it made SO much more work for me, i basicly have to cut and rewire every wire in this harness because of how long it was.

art/tweak can you tell me what this power wire plug is for? its located at the starter plugs.

Yeah I noticed with a lot of the harnesses that were sent to me for repair (that DG originally did) that it seemed like he was matching up wire colors and didn't actually know what any of the wires did. For example, I saw a few times he had the ignition/injectors power wire connected to the starter, because on some 6GC harnesses the power wire is solid black. The effect, obviously, was that the car would crank as soon as the key was turned to the on position and keep cranking, but never start

You are correct about the JDM harness being long enough once you turn it back around, basically you end up needing to extend just a few plugs, like the igniter and AFM connectors.

That plug above is for the starter sub-harness on ST harnesses, it plugs into the wire that then goes to the starter (remember on the ST it's down below the intake manifold). Normally you would eliminate that plug.

I ran into something that I cant figure out. Plug EA1 has a blue wire on pin 16, yet I can't find any mention of what this wire is for in any of my books. Anyone have a clue what its does? It might be something year specific, and thats why its not in my book.

Sorry for jacking your thread with my own questions Manny. If its a problem, I can start a new one. Oh and thanks to this thread, you motivated me to start working on this thing. I was slacking...big time, but now that I started on it, Im actually having a lot of fun with it.

art, the blue wire is for the fan switch in the radiator in ST's.
for some reason it routes that way, the GT's dont.
ill post a pic in a few of what the harness looks like now.

my harness is routed just like a 5s harness now, art.

it starts at the diagnostics box, ignitor and coil (i moved the map sensor to the stock 5s location, then goes to the waterneck, then some wires go the the fuse box, the rest go up thru the manifold, and into the boot on the other side, just like a stock harness.

i had to cut and splice a few wires as i went, to get the rest of the wires to be able to "flip", then cut out all the extra wire out (which sucked because of how dave extended it, once i had it all going the right way.

That's correct on the blue wire, should be blue/black actually. Normally when I do a 3SGTE into an ST, I go to a GT radiator, get the GT fan switch, and then extend that wire down to connect to the stock GT fan switch in the bottom of the radiator. Then everything works just like factory

Thanks for the plug manny

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Dec 28, 2008 - 3:14 PM

[presure2]

That plug above is for the starter sub-harness on ST harnesses, it plugs into the wire that then goes to the starter (remember on the ST it's down below the intake manifold). Normally you would eliminate that plug.

thanks man.

yea, that blue wire is blue with black stripe.

NP on the plug, its 100% true too, and i think you would agree, that doing it from a factory harness is much easier than doing it with one thats been hacked to death like this one.

I've been raving about those butane soldering pens for years. I love mind so much, I bought a second one.
Where did you get yours from? Yours looks a lot nicer then mine.

yea, i got mine from the snap-on guy.

you really cant beat it.

[njccmd2002]

Sticky, so that everyone knows what wiring entails!!!!

[presure2]

Sticky, so that everyone knows what wiring entails!!!!

yea, i suposse we are gathering some good info in the process of this thread.

to clarify what i did with the fuel pump relay:

I took the blue wire with orange stripe (pin #1), and attached it to the blue wire with black stripe (pin#3) the blue with white stripe is the wire that normally goes to the fuel pump resistor, it was just jumpered back into the blue wire with black stripe a few inches back, so i removed it.
the green with red stripe (pin#4) is the wire that sends the signal to the ecu and can be totally removed.
like that i totally removed the FPR from the system, and the wires now run like it was never there.

[lagos]

^ Yep, thats perfect.

[lagos]

Sticky, so that everyone knows what wiring entails!!!!

Im making notes of what needs to be wired for a DIY your own swap harness post. This is something I wanted to do for 4yrs now, after my initial frustration with the lack of info when I started a swap wiring thread years ago (search for it). However Manny is 100% right, just mail your harness out and be done with it. Its well worth the money not to have to deal with this in the middle of trying to finish everything else about the swap that needs to be done.

Manny and I tried to do my harness years ago when I was swapping. We basically started, and got to a point where it was like, F this... trying to learn how to read a wiring diagram correctly, while trying to finish a swap on a deadline and a budget is just too much do deal with.

[lagos]

Yeah I noticed with a lot of the harnesses that were sent to me for repair (that DG originally did) that it seemed like he was matching up wire colors and didn't actually know what any of the wires did. For example, I saw a few times he had the ignition/injectors power wire connected to the starter, because on some 6GC harnesses the power wire is solid black. The effect, obviously, was that the car would crank as soon as the key was turned to the on position and keep cranking, but never start smile.gif

He wasnt just matching up colors, he was following someone elses work that had a few mistakes in it. There was actually a whole lot of drama regarding swap wiring that went on behind the scenes at that time. Its a long story. lol.

[presure2]

yup, mikes original diagrams back in the day had a few mistakes in them..hehe

[lagos]

yup, mikes original diagrams back in the day had a few mistakes in them..hehe

There were actually a few revisions of them. The one DG got was a really bad one with a lot of mistakes, while the later ones were mostly correct with maybe 1 or 2 small mistakes, but I dont think he ever got those.

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 28, 2008 - 5:38 PM

[presure2]

yup, mikes original diagrams back in the day had a few mistakes in them..hehe

There were actually a few revisions of them. The one DG got was a really bad one with a lot of mistakes, while the later ones were mostly correct with maybe 1 or 2 small mistakes, but I dont think he ever got those.

yea..i have all that stuff too

[presure2]

so since we're going over all this stuff, i figured i'd might as well post some pics of the ecu and interior plugs, so you guys that are following along would know what we're talking about, so here they are.

first the 3 ecu plugs. just a note here, the plug labled E8A is the plug that goes from the ecu to the interior of the 5th gen. when you swap, you need this plug to complete the harness conversion. IIRC tweak can get this plug new, but you can also get them from a junkyard.
so on to the pics.

E8A:


E6B


E7C


and the interior plugs from the 6th gen that get wired in, and the circiut opening relay(COR)

II1


II2


IJ1


and the COR

[playr158]

very nice work my friend.
I dig the attention to detail, the amount of knowledge you are providing and finding 1 more way to save weight.

[presure2]

and finding 1 more way to save weight.

i knew you'd dig that!

[lagos]

Nice!
I'll try to post up some pics of the 5th gen plugs that need to be converted for the fuse box wiring, as soon as I get some batteries for my camera.

[CelicaST_CALI]

Another swap..-_-...rabbits i tell you...



Some great info in here!!Cant wait for an engine pic (hint hint)

This post has been edited by CelicaST_CALI: Dec 29, 2008 - 8:38 PM

[presure2]

so i took the harness out to the garage for a quick test fit, and woot, it does. quite well in fact.
batteries were dead when i went out, so the next time i bring it out ill snap a few.

[lagos]

so i was looking at my harness here, and correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like you have two ways of flipping the harness.

1. flip it all the way down around where the injectors are. This will give you the cleanest flip, but you will have to shorten a lot of the harness because it will be too long at this point.
2. flip it somewhere before the injectors. However with this method, you will have to bend the harness in half and possibly create a bulge from bending all that wire.

or am i missing something here?

[presure2]

so i was looking at my harness here, and correct me if Im wrong, but it seems like you have two ways of flipping the harness.

1. flip it all the way down around where the injectors are. This will give you the cleanest flip, but you will have to shorten a lot of the harness because it will be too long at this point.
2. flip it somewhere before the injectors. However with this method, you will have to bend the harness in half and possibly create a bulge from bending all that wire.

or am i missing something here?

art, once you unloom the jdm harness from the boot, past the injectors, you pull everything but the coil, ignitor, map, diagonostics box, afm, waterneck, reverselight switch, tps, and speed sensor twoards the USDM passanger side of the harness. you may or may not have to cut and splice a few wires along the way to get it to come apart, and then you will have to legthen all the wires for all the stuff i listed above except the TPS and speed sensor.
then on the other side of the injectors, you will have a load of extra wire, you cut that out, resplice it together (it should be alot less than i had to do if its not already extended) and your good to go.

i cant see flipping it before the injectors, kinda defeats the purpose.

[lagos]

Right, so I will have to shorten the harness then.

[presure2]

Right, so I will have to shorten the harness then.

some of it, yes.

[Defgeph]

Nice work dude

[hurley97]

Nice work dude

What's this guy doing here? I thought he was banned or something...

[lagos]

I noticed a potentially horrible mistake that a n00b could make when wiring the harness...

Manny, in your fuse box, from the EFI relay you should see 2 black wires with yellow stripe. Are both of those wires soldered into a Y into another black wire with yellow stripe or is just one of them connected and the other one left hanging?

I'll have to double check to see how my harness was done, but those 2 wires really MUST be connected into a Y. That wire sends out power to all kinds of EFI related functions, but on our 6th gen fuse box those wires are very thin gauge compared to the wire they get connected to in the 3sgte harness. If someone was to make the mistake of connecting only one of them, they could end up sending power to the fuel pump, COR, tvis, etc... through one skinny 16 gauge wire! With our upgraded fuel pumps, you could end up with serious voltage drop! Connecting the 2 wires into a Y at least beefs up the wiring before it gets connected to the thicker 3sgte harness wire.

This is also a great reason why us swappers especially should rewire our fuel pumps to run new fused wire directly from the battery along with its own relay as was recently posted on mr2oc.

[95st-celica]

very nice.your the man..solder that bitch up! lol

[lagos]

Here are the two wires in question...

Top two are the very thin gauge efi wires from the 6th gen fuse box.
Bottom right is the 3sgte efi wire, and bottom left (red) is a 12gauge wire for comparison.
Notice how thin the 6th gen wires are. If someone connected just one of them, as the wiring diagrams say to do, you could end up with some large voltage drop issues.


However if you twist the two 6th gen wires together, they actually match the gauge of the 3sgte efi wire.



And here they are soldered and heat shrunk.

[playr158]

great job Art

even the small things matter

[presure2]

I noticed a potentially horrible mistake that a n00b could make when wiring the harness...

Manny, in your fuse box, from the EFI relay you should see 2 black wires with yellow stripe. Are both of those wires soldered into a Y into another black wire with yellow stripe or is just one of them connected and the other one left hanging?

I'll have to double check to see how my harness was done, but those 2 wires really MUST be connected into a Y. That wire sends out power to all kinds of EFI related functions, but on our 6th gen fuse box those wires are very thin gauge compared to the wire they get connected to in the 3sgte harness. If someone was to make the mistake of connecting only one of them, they could end up sending power to the fuel pump, COR, tvis, etc... through one skinny 16 gauge wire! With our upgraded fuel pumps, you could end up with serious voltage drop! Connecting the 2 wires into a Y at least beefs up the wiring before it gets connected to the thicker 3sgte harness wire.

This is also a great reason why us swappers especially should rewire our fuel pumps to run new fused wire directly from the battery along with its own relay as was recently posted on mr2oc.

nice catch art.
when i swap, i was planning on running new wire back to the pump anyway, what im thinking is to use one of the empty fuse blocks in the fuse box, and run it back to its own relay ect.
although, in my harness, the only thing that the EFI relay goes to is the COR, ecu, and fuel pump.
the way dave wired up the starter relay is really funky, it dont use the switch at all, its all wired in thru the coil side of the relay. he left the ST starter wire connected to the starter relay, but didnt wire in the 3sgte starter switch plug to it.
ill have to get a pic and MS paint it to show ya what i mean, its really odd.
i keep saying it the more and more i play with the harness. its amazing this car even ran, the way this harness is wired.
ohh and somthing you need to know.
if dave exended your harness, art, its missing the shielding around the distributor, injector wires, knock sensor, and o2.
the sheilding was just cut away from the corresponding wires, and he just extended the wireing with all the other wires in the harness.

and we wonder why these 2nd gen swaps seem to run great at times, and like ass at others..

[presure2]

so here is a pic of what im talking about:



so, im planning on just wiring the 3s starter switch wire into that ST wire, like it should be.

[Dr_Tweak]

Nice. So the starter was being powered directly out of the ignition switch. It's a wonder the ignition switch didn't go bad. Actually, it's a wonder that it didn't blow that fuse on that circuit....

-Doc

[presure2]

Nice. So the starter was being powered directly out of the ignition switch. It's a wonder the ignition switch didn't go bad. Actually, it's a wonder that it didn't blow that fuse on that circuit....

-Doc

acutally, it did,...apparently RJB stuck a 10amp fuse in there.
im surprized that held.

[lagos]

But what about those two wires from the efi relay I posted about? Are they soldered into a Y or is just one of them connected? I'm dying to find out how yours was done, and its too cold out to go unwrap mine and check.

Luckily I decided against extending my harness, so all the factory shielding is still there.

Doing this harness from scratch made me really understand how some of these harnesses were hacked up. Not exactly that anything was done wrong or whatever, but that things could have been done differently. For example, in my harness I still have the male and female IG1 and IG2 plugs connected together and then the wiring to the 3rd ecu plug and interior plugs was ran from there. Why? Its WAY cleaner to just cut those plugs off and wire the interior and ecu plugs directly! Arrrg...

It really makes me want to pull out my own harness and clean it up.
I'll be adding a dedicated wire from the battery to the fuel pump soon. Looking at the supra wiring diagrams, that pump is on its own efi relay with a 30amp fuse, while ours shares its power from everything efi related, through a 15amp fuse and really thin wiring.

[presure2]

But what about those two wires from the efi relay I posted about? Are they soldered into a Y or is just one of them connected? I'm dying to find out how yours was done, and its too cold out to go unwrap mine and check.

Luckily I decided against extending my harness, so all the factory shielding is still there.

Doing this harness from scratch made me really understand how some of these harnesses were hacked up. Not exactly that anything was done wrong or whatever, but that things could have been done differently. For example, in my harness I still have the male and female IG1 and IG2 plugs connected together and then the wiring to the 3rd ecu plug and interior plugs was ran from there. Why? Its WAY cleaner to just cut those plugs off and wire the interior and ecu plugs directly! Arrrg...

It really makes me want to pull out my own harness and clean it up.
I'll be adding a dedicated wire from the battery to the fuel pump soon. Looking at the supra wiring diagrams, that pump is on its own efi relay with a 30amp fuse, while ours shares its power from everything efi related, through a 15amp fuse and really thin wiring.

yea the wires go together

[lagos]

I did a quick voltage drop test between the battery and the fp pin in the diagnostic box. I got 1.6v drop! And thats just at idle! To say that our upgraded fuel pumps shouldn't be hooked up to the factory harness is the understatement of the year!

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 5, 2009 - 4:31 PM

[lagos]

I need some help figuring this out...

So, the way the whole starting system works on the Alltrac is very different from the way it works on a 6th gen car.
On the Alltrac the clutch start switch acts only as a switched GROUND for the starter relay coil.
On the 6th gen, the clutch start switch acts as a switched 12v line for the starter relay coil.
So since we are dealing with the same car, and the same fuse box, you can simply run a wire directly from the clutch start switch to the relay using IJ1 pin 17.
Simple enough, right?

Here is where it gets tricky.
On the 6th gen the "switch" part of the rely sends power through the fuse box, and directly into a single wire that goes to the starter.
The alltrac on the other hand sends that same wire not only to the starter, but also to the cold start injector, time switch circuit opening rely, and Ecu STA signal, and that wire is actually part of the main harness and does not go directly from the fuse box like it does on the 6th gen.

The 6th gen however uses the actual clutch switch, that then goes to the starter relay's coil, to send power to the COR and STA Ecu pin, and there does not seem to be a cold start injector (excuse my noobness).

So how would you go about wiring this up then. Would you take the starter wire thats part of the 3sgte harness (same wire that goes to eb1 pin 2) and Tee it off to the single wire that just goes to the starters switch, and then run a brand new wire from the clutch start sw IJ1 pin 17 directly to the starter relays coil and to the ecu STA pin ?

This would be the "alltrac way" of doing it, instead of having the coil part of the relay send voltage to the cold start injector, cor,etc...

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 9, 2009 - 3:50 AM

[presure2]

I need some help figuring this out...

So, the way the whole starting system works on the Alltrac is very different from the way it works on a 6th gen car.
On the Alltrac the clutch start switch acts only as a switched GROUND for the starter relay coil.
On the 6th gen, the clutch start switch acts as a switched 12v line for the starter relay coil.
So since we are dealing with the same car, and the same fuse box, you can simply run a wire directly from the clutch start switch to the relay using IJ1 pin 17.
Simple enough, right?

Here is where it gets tricky.
On the 6th gen the "switch" part of the rely sends power through the fuse box, and directly into a single wire that goes to the starter.
The alltrac on the other hand sends that same wire not only to the starter, but also to the cold start injector, time switch circuit opening rely, and Ecu STA signal, and that wire is actually part of the main harness and does not go directly from the fuse box like it does on the 6th gen.

The 6th gen however uses the actual clutch switch, that then goes to the starter relay's coil, to send power to the COR and STA Ecu pin, and there does not seem to be a cold start injector (excuse my noobness).

So how would you go about wiring this up then. Would you take the starter wire thats part of the 3sgte harness (same wire that goes to eb1 pin 2) and Tee it off to the single wire that just goes to the starters switch, and then run a brand new wire from the clutch start sw IJ1 pin 17 directly to the starter relays coil and to the ecu STA pin ?

This would be the "alltrac way" of doing it, instead of having the coil part of the relay send voltage to the cold start injector, cor,etc...

in my harness we set it up to go from IJ1 pin 17 and taps into the pin 3 (solid black) from the COR.
and yes, we have no cold start injector. the ECU has cold start trims that adds the extra fuel.

[lagos]

right, but if you do that, you are powering the cor, the cold start injector, etc.. from the clutch start sw wire that powers the magnetic coil inside the relay, when in the alltrac its powered from the the "switched" wire that only goes to the starter. If look at the wiring diagrams for both cars, you'll see what I mean. Both of them are wired totally different.

This is also why your starter relay was wired wrong, because on the 6gc the thinner coil wire actually does power the cor and other stuff in the car.

[presure2]

right, but if you do that, you are powering the cor, the cold start injector, etc.. from the clutch start sw wire that powers the magnetic coil inside the relay, when in the alltrac its powered from the the "switched" wire that only goes to the starter. If look at the wiring diagrams for both cars, you'll see what I mean. Both of them are wired totally different.

This is also why your starter relay was wired wrong, because on the 6gc the thinner coil wire actually does power the cor and other stuff in the car.

yup. thats how dave wired it up.
we just added in the clutch start switch (dave had it set up to start all the time, didnt have the clutch start switch at all.)

[lagos]

So are you saying you ran a brand new wire from pin 17 clutch start sw, directly to the starter relay and nothing else?
If you do that, then you also would have to take the 3sgte starter sw wire and the 6th gen starter sw wire and join them together. Then wire the cor pin 3 to IG2 pin 20, and the ST ecu pin.

That way when the starter cranks, it will send power through the starter sw wire to the cor, cold start injector, cold start sw, and ecu. That would probably be the proper way of doing this.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 9, 2009 - 7:00 PM

[Batman722]

Art, was the car that your doing this harness for origianlly an auto or a manual ? (the car it's going into)

This post has been edited by Batman722: Jan 10, 2009 - 12:06 AM

[lagos]

Always a manual. Its just a difference in how the 6th gen powers the starter relay, cor and ecu, vs how the alltrac does it.
On the stock 6th gen, both of those relays and ecu signal are just triggered/powered by the clutch start switch, because they are relatively low powered circuits.
However on the alltrac, you also have the the cold start injector, and time switch on that same starter circuit. So instead of using the clutch switch, the alltrac uses the same wire that goes to the the starter switch.

So what I think I need to do is wire it up so that i run brand new wire from the clutch start sw to trigger the starter relay, and send a starting signal to the ecu. This way the clutch switch is only triggering one relay and sending starting signal to the ecu. Then once the starter relay clicks, I need to Tee off a wire from the 6th gens starter switch wire, to send power back through the harness to the COR, Cold Start Injector, and Time switch. This would be kind of a hybrid way of how the alltrac and 6th gen cars deal with that circuit.

It seems like this would be a very simple thing to wire up, but if you really take a close look at both diagrams and see how the power runs through the harness, you'll see what I mean. I'm willing to bet that a lot of people just power the all of those things though the clutch switch 12v, and thats why a lot of swaps need some extra cranking to get started in the winter.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 10, 2009 - 3:08 AM

[presure2]

So are you saying you ran a brand new wire from pin 17 clutch start sw, directly to the starter relay and nothing else?
If you do that, then you also would have to take the 3sgte starter sw wire and the 6th gen starter sw wire and join them together. Then wire the cor pin 3 to IG2 pin 20, and the ST ecu pin.

That way when the starter cranks, it will send power through the starter sw wire to the cor, cold start injector, cold start sw, and ecu. That would probably be the proper way of doing this.

we added a wire at pin 17, and tapped that into the black COR wire.
dave just had a jumper soldered in.
if i have my way, i wont be using the CSI anyway.

[Dr_Tweak]

Always a manual. Its just a difference in how the 6th gen powers the starter relay, cor and ecu, vs how the alltrac does it.
On the stock 6th gen, both of those relays and ecu signal are just triggered/powered by the clutch start switch, because they are relatively low powered circuits.
However on the alltrac, you also have the the cold start injector, and time switch on that same starter circuit. So instead of using the clutch switch, the alltrac uses the same wire that goes to the the starter switch.

So what I think I need to do is wire it up so that i run brand new wire from the clutch start sw to trigger the starter relay, and send a starting signal to the ecu. This way the clutch switch is only triggering one relay and sending starting signal to the ecu. Then once the starter relay clicks, I need to Tee off a wire from the 6th gens starter switch wire, to send power back through the harness to the COR, Cold Start Injector, and Time switch. This would be kind of a hybrid way of how the alltrac and 6th gen cars deal with that circuit.

I assume this is what you PMd me about... and yes, that's exactly how we do it also, it seems like it's the safest and most "factory" way to go about it. It also allows for the least number of connections. Well done.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 10, 2009 - 11:32 PM

[lagos]

I was really wondering how you handled that circuit since there are a bunch of different ways someone could wire it up and still make it "work".
All of this really makes me want to tear out my own harness and go over everything, but since the car is my daily, I cant afford the down time.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 11, 2009 - 1:49 AM