What do you guys think, 1st gen 3sge head on a 5sfe? Options

[bccentaur3]

Of course I will be boosting this so technically it will be a 5sgte. But I was wondering what the pros and cons are with the 1st gen 3sge head? I like the intake manifold on the 3sge but I doubt it will flow as good as the 3sgte manifold.

I have access to dirt cheap 3sge heads and it would be an awesome project.

[RavenAegis45]

hmm well it might flow better than it's 3S-GTE counterpart i've read the 3S-GTE from the 4th gen Celica ran lean on cylinder 4 I think. But it was a good head design. the JDM models which weren't nearly as restricted by emissions as there USDM counterparts made impressive numbers. Although I guess it'll depend on how you set the head up. the 5S-FE does have different timing than the 3S-GE i think but good luck on your endeavors Im curious to see how it turns out

[bccentaur3]

Actually i might opt and get a 3rd gen 3sge head on the 5s block. This will start around spring.

[RavenAegis45]

Actually i might opt and get a 3rd gen 3sge head on the 5s block. This will start around spring.

Oh thats a different head altogether. All i really know is the 3rd gen doesn't have TVIS like the 1st gen. i've only seen diagrams but it has a dual stage intake manifold that goes over the valve cover. thats really all i know but i think other than the Intake and exhaust manifold the head is otherwise the same as the 3S-GTE but im sure theres treads on the differences somewhere on here

[trdproven]

Hardtarget i think has a 5sgte and his car is a monster.

[delusionz]

Would love to see what a 5S-GE does NA....

3S-GE is nice and revvy, goes like a bat out of hell between 5k and 7k but suffers from no torque down below

I read about a 7A-GE project once though and the guy mentioned that the low end torque was a good improvement over the 4A-GE but the engine was unable to sustain 6000 rpm and above (possibly due to that compression loss where he used the 4A-GE pistons in the 7A-FE block)

I looked at Ice23Q's dyno video (5S-GTE at 16PSI) and hes making on average 50 more HP at the wheels than some of the other 3S-GTE swapped FWD Celicas running similar boost levels, at 6600 RPM too (and still climbing even with the redline approaching.)

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

well worry no more.

a mate of mine has done it before, in a 162 and is in the process of doing so again, the bottom end was getting knackered in the old 5s, so he has got a low km one and using that, should be back togther this weekend. If anyone is interested in the build i could post the workings and whats required here in the near future.

went really well, torque down low was unbelieveable, 2nd gear takeoffs no worries at all.
just used stock ecu, stock injectors and afm etc, so all the ecu knew is that it needed more fuel for x ammount of revs.

the build he is doing now is going to be a bit better then the last, and using the metal hg (part number i got from a thread on here..thanks whoever post that). turbo will take place at a later stage.

[trdproven]

3s and 5s puts best of both worlds.

[bccentaur3]

Cuts, so your buddy ran the stock 3sfe ecu with a 3sge head? I don't get how all the ignition and timing worked?

[bdawgbp1]

Someone please let me know as I am getting ready to rebuild a 2nd gen 3S-GTE head to put on my 94 GT coupe (5S-FE block).

This post has been edited by bdawgbp1: Feb 23, 2009 - 4:03 AM

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

no he used the stock 3s-ge ecu running the 5s-ge combination.

they run afm so the ecu would just see there is more air going in, and give it more juice.

[bdawgbp1]

So are you saying I can use my stock 5S-FE ECU, injectors, sensors, etc as long as I get some kind of air/fuel management? Do I need something like an AEM system (lots of $) or will a piggyback (like the Venom 400) do the job? Thanks for all of the input as this is my first attempt at something like this.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

going your way around you might be ok using your ecu. As the 5s ecu is already configured for a 2.2. Obviously the volumetric efficiency of the g head is a little better then the f head. But i dont think that should matter too much.

Use all 5s sensors and injectors etc and give it a go with the stock ecu, i think it'll be fine.

[bccentaur3]

how do you plan to use the 3sge distributor?

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

what would be the problem using it?

[bccentaur3]

5sfe ecu with 3sge ignition system?

[bdawgbp1]

So do I need to change the distributor also. Also I guess I'm gonna have to use the 3S-GTE intake manifold, throttle body, and exhaust also?

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

i havnt checked for sure but i cant see the dizzy's being too much diff electricly. check it out, if you need to run the 3sge dizzy.

are you using a 3sge head or 3sgte? use the gen1 3sge inlet mani if you have one.
ezhaust doesnt matter a fnck as long as its not restrictive.

i know gen1 3sge and gen2 3sgte both use a 55mm throttle body so use that, i reckon the 5s-fe will be 50mm but im not 100%.

here is a little bit my mate put in his thread about what you need to grind out of the head so the water jackets line up, and get the 5s-fe metal head gasket, make sure the block and head are micky mouse (ie resurfaced)

keep in mind the 5s-fe ecu wont be able to control the TVIS, get some sort of jacar rev switch to control it, should only cost you $30 or so....or get an aftermarket ecu.

"the spots in red are the only bits that a required to be ground out'
well anyway all is coming together quite well till i put the belt on rotated the crank realising that the cam wheels where then offset once returned not membering to change also the crank pulley aswell because 5s ones are bigger and also have one more tooth than the 3sge pully, alos i needed the 5sfe head gasket as well to account for the new carvings i have created but it is all very simple really just need to use most of the ge stuff when changing it all over, any more questions i am happy to answer if everything goes well"

another interesting bit from his thread.
"i used everthing that was external from the 3sge including the head, intake gear, exhaust mani, timing belt, harmonic balancer, crank pully, if there is anything else i will try and member but thats all im pretty sure i changed over."

keep in mind this was puttin a 5s block onto a gen1 3sge in a 4th gen (so the 3sge was the factory engine)



This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Feb 24, 2009 - 8:18 AM

[bdawgbp1]

Thanks for the info. I will be using a 3S-GTE head. Any difference from using the GTE versus the GE head? I plan on getting a 3S-GTE intake mani and throttle body. Do you know about the crank, pulleys or anything else that will need to be swapped. You guys are a blessing. Thanks again.

[HARDTARGET]

Thanks for the info. I will be using a 3S-GTE head. Any difference from using the GTE versus the GE head? I plan on getting a 3S-GTE intake mani and throttle body. Do you know about the crank, pulleys or anything else that will need to be swapped. You guys are a blessing. Thanks again.

The timing belt pulley on the crank need's to be from a 3s engine, very important.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

what he said...i think it was mentioned in my post b4 this one.

ge heads have more aggressive cams then gte heads, and they have better inlet manifold designs so use one of those insted.

[bdawgbp1]

Cool beans - anything else? I'm trying to get all this done right as I do not want to get parts that I can't use for this application but I also want to maximize my gains - if 1 part makes the difference I would like to know. I don't plan on boosting it just yet - probably next year. But I will be driving it N/A until that time comes so I kinda want a setup that will have good power potential without the boost. Thanks for all the info provided.

[bdawgbp1]

what he said...i think it was mentioned in my post b4 this one.

ge heads have more aggressive cams then gte heads, and they have better inlet manifold designs so use one of those insted.

Are you referring to the 3S-GE heads or intake mani and throttle body? I'm assuming you are saying to use my 3S-GTE head with it's own valvetrain and to bolt onto that the GE intake and throttle body. Thanks for replying.

[bccentaur3]

Hes saying if you want a better flowing head get a 3sGE head not a GTE. I really hope you get your engine harness done right and use the 3sge ecu and electronics. You'll have troubles with the 3sge dizzy with a 5sfe ecu. You can;t fit a 5sfe dizzy onto a 3s head. If you've ever seen the dizzys side by side you'll see that the 3s dizzy has a longer shaft. Not only that the 3s dizzy has 2 pick up coils and the 5s has one.

Just do it right the first time and get your harness converted. to run in your car. Now if you plan on using a 3rd gen 3sge head on a 5s block. Say you get a complete head and harness and ecu. 3rd gen meaning coming from a st202 chassis, its plug and play in your 6th gen celica, since the body harness is the same. Now keep in mind there maybe things that needed to be wired up, but it should be plug and play.

[bdawgbp1]

Unfortunately I already have the 3S-GTE head. Can I still use a GE dizzy and ecu setup with the 5S block? What intake and exhaust setup should I use? Appreciate the help. With any luck this project will be a successful prominent upgrade and not a futile effort for power without boost.

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

if you alreayd have the gte head use what you have. You can still use a ge dizzy and itll fit, get an aftermarket ecu, you can get them pretty cheap.

if you want to contact the dude who did it let me know and ill pm you his email address.

This post has been edited by Cuts_the_Pilot: Feb 25, 2009 - 7:46 AM

[presure2]

Unfortunately I already have the 3S-GTE head. Can I still use a GE dizzy and ecu setup with the 5S block? What intake and exhaust setup should I use? Appreciate the help. With any luck this project will be a successful prominent upgrade and not a futile effort for power without boost.

wow,... your in for heap of problems.

[bccentaur3]

If you plan on going NA with the build use a 5sfe header from ebay. For the intake manifold you must use the 3sgte one or the 3sge one. Both in the US utilize the TVIS butterfly. Since you are using a 3sge dizzy you will also need the external coil. If you aren't getting your engine harness converted to use the head you WILL need a standalone.

I agree with Manny, you didn't do a good job planning. I think you just dove into something you werent ready for. Prepare to spend more money than you intended to, due to poor planning.

Again we will be here to help you, but you have to help yourself first by researching.

[bdawgbp1]

Yeah - I know. You are right - there wasn't alot of planning on the front side. I actually planned on just doing a complete swap to a Gen 3 or 4 JDM 3S-GTE but a buudy of mine sold me a GTE head real cheap and told me I could build it to use on my 5S. He failed to mention all of the stuff involved that would have to be changed for it to work - not to mention the $ involved. Some buddy huh? Guess that's what I get for listening to a Honda fanatic. If I just decide to scrap this idea - is there anything I can do to my stock 5S to up the power? Who sells the turbo kit? I've been trying to find the Burien Toyota kit but the link I received - www.poweredbytoyota.com - is no longer valid. Any suggestions will be considered at this point. Thanks to all for the input - next time I'll do more research on my part before diving into something this deep. LOL!!

[bccentaur3]

Piece the turbo kit using 3sgte stock parts with rx7 460cc injectors.

Have you failed to read my 5sgte project build? I'm building one right now. But if you plan to boost the 5s just read the Forced Induction stickies. Mannys build is the most solid thread out there for the DIYers. With a healthy motor and following Mannys thread your pieced together kit will be just as powerful and reliable. Just don't skip out on things.

Like what Manny says "cheap, fast, reliable pick two".

[bdawgbp1]

No I haven't read about your build - but I'll be sure to do it now! I'm scrapping the previous idea of a build with the 3S-GTE head for now. Know anybody that needs a GTE head? LOL!! I'm open to reasonable offers. You can PM me if you like.

[bccentaur3]

Unless you have a 3rd gen head, then no.

[DEATH]

No I haven't read about your build - but I'll be sure to do it now! I'm scrapping the previous idea of a build with the 3S-GTE head for now. Know anybody that needs a GTE head? LOL!! I'm open to reasonable offers. You can PM me if you like.

If that's a 2nd gen head hit me up with lots of pics - fortunately for you I happen to have an entire Turbo kit for the 5S-FE and I could use a second head to have a serious build done on. We can work something out.
But seriously listen to these guys above and not just a random friend [I know this from experience] - research, research and more research - then buy and execute plans.

[bccentaur3]

Death, did you get my pm about the turbo and heatshield?

[bdawgbp1]

Hell yeah!!! Let me see if I can go digg that sucker out of the garage - I've been needing to do some Spring cleaning anyway - got too much junk piled up as well as a Mustnag and Grand Prix GTP parked in there. It's kinda like when you don't know what to do with it - throw it in the garage! LOL! I'll try to see if I can get some pics this weekend and get them to you. Hopefully we can work something out. Thanks.

[DEATH]

Death, did you get my pm about the turbo and heatshield?

No - My inbox is full LOL. I have one of each tho