Beams Red top Vs *MZ-FE, Nope, no 3sgte please. Options

[njccmd2002]

Need your help. 3sgte, I have decided against this. This is not a useless post, swap is a coming!! but dont know what!!



Please Disregard swap cost, dont tell me why it cant be done, or too difficult, i dont care.

If i had 2 celicas, identical same color and everything. One is a V6 and the other one is beams, what do you want. This is not a discussion about cost, or how hard it is to swap.

I have seen HP is about the same, however there are torque differences. What does that entail?

V6 has a little more torque. I read some posts, but i know is what keeps the engine going, like momentum, but in practicality, what is it? , what does that mean to me?

Yes, I dont want hassle with turbo, at least for now, the v6 can be supercharged.

My goal is to push at least 190 hp, thats for now.

I just cant decide, im torn, i need opinions. Beams is gorgeous, but a V6 is magnificent.

This post has been edited by njccmd2002: Sep 10, 2009 - 8:34 AM

[playr158]

v6...better parts availability and cheaper to maintain

[95CelicaST]

V6 might be a bit harder to maintain due to the lack of space to work in.

But the V6 is going to have more parts available than the beams.

[njccmd2002]

thats what i have tought, but the beams looks Cool, I could always paint the V6 cover Red.


What about the torque? Is more torque better?

[Euphoria]

v6 is going to use more fuel when its pushed than the 4 cylinder will, and will use more around town in general.

of course torque is better, torque is what makes the car feel fast! that's why alot of the time v8's feel so fast, sometimes they aren't even that quick, but the torque causes it to feel faster. If you want to read more into it look it up on wiki

the v6 im am guessing is a heavier engine which would cause the car to understeer more than the beams.

and the v6 in my opinion sounds better, but Id personally forget the flaws and take it over a beams.

[njccmd2002]

yeah i read the wiki, and was like, WT? too much tech stuff. but that gives a good idea..

[Culpable04]

depending on which v6 engine you go with, your car will also be lighter as the v6 came in alluminum block, someone here with a v6 weight his car just under 2500, that's lighter than a fully loaded GT, so is also a better deal on that sense.

Once you get over the fact of " wow a beams " is not that good of an option unless you are looking for rarity.

I'd say V6 if these are your options.

[njccmd2002]

Yeah, im just scared of the parts, and fact that i cant get the 3sge repair manual, in case it needs to be tore down, plus the fact nobody will know how to work with it, but its a BEAMs, !

i think, im getting closer to decide.....

[BonzaiCelica]

well njccmd2002. ya it depends what v6 you get like some members already said. if you look at snapshots celica. i believe he has v6 from the 96-99 toyota camry. dont know the exact name. also his custom made cross member was really close to the ground. you will have limited space to work on the engine. check out his video of him acclerating from 0-80 mph its pretty darn fast. probably a tad bit faster than 3sge redtop.

about the redtop manual, im sure you know of this but they are in the process of translating the whole japanese manual and putting it into a pdf file. They have been doing it for around 3.5 months now and are about halfway done with the manual.


oh c'mon culpable the redtop was ment for the celica. of course the beams is darn good, one of the best n/a engines toyota's every built, along with the 4age.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Sep 9, 2009 - 4:38 PM

[njccmd2002]

I was reading that the manual was already available, but they dont want to give it out. mmm, that is different.

[blu94gt]

If you do a 1mzfe you have a few advantages. 1 would be that it's cheaper, since there's a million Camrys and Solaras that use that motor. 2 would be that the parts are a lot more readily available than the 3sge. Plus the motor is all aluminum, and there's a TRD supercharger available for it if you want more power.

If I remember correctly, there's like one motor mount that is different for the v6 (at least this is true for MR2 swaps, I researched putting one in a deuce). The 5sfe and 3sgte trans should bolt up, so you can use yours or try to find an MR2 tranny with LSD.

[njccmd2002]

so the 5s Tranny from a v6 solara wont fit on the celica, right? aint it supposed to be a e153 too?

the problem with using my tranny is the high rpms, i was reading about the hybrid camry / celica transmission, bu the E-153 seems like a headache axle deal.

[azian_advanced]

For daily driving, I'd go with the V6.
For weekend spirited driving / show, I'd go with the Beams.

[Bitter]

V6, torque is awesomw, torque from a standstill is even better.

[808celica]

my v6 *mz-fe in my sienna van get better mpg that my 5s
I would go mz-fe just because if you need anything it should be easy to find parts. dunno how parts hunting for the beams would go.

[Superaison]

Would a v6 AWD celica be quick? Why dont people put the v6 in gt4's?

[urbandork]

Would a v6 AWD celica be quick? Why dont people put the v6 in gt4's?

a gt4 already has the 3sgte in it

[SwissFerdi]

3S-GTE ≠ V6.

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Sep 10, 2009 - 12:43 AM

[fibrewizard]

ok....let me in.....

lol....

IMO opinion....

beams.. wow cool.... seriously.... but thats all..... unless you want to go full house N/A build....

V6...... has heaps of parts available..... HEAPS... cause there are so many on the road....and therefore parts are made and are cheap.....supply V demand...

V6 with e153 gearbox will be just as easy if not easier to install then a beams..... not much difference....
you still gotta wire it up to ecu and get other stuff like exhaust and power steering stuff done.......

i see the V6 conversion is getting so popular lately and there is a world of choices of engines to put in....
2vzfe, 3vzfe, 1mzfe, 3mzfe. all great motors and have very little difference besides the way they are built, eg all alloy....

the beauty of the 1-3mzfe's is that they have VVTI like the 7th gen celica and the beams 3sge.... so not only do you get the kick from the torque but you get the high ends revs from the cams.........best option IMO.....

i went with the 3vzfe cause i want to boost soon and the 3vzfe being cast steel block, rods, crank, can handle upto 10psi of boost before you need to start messing with internals......

base model 3vzfe's have 180-190 hp..... later models have 200hp..(like mine)......mz series motors have much the same......

free up the intake with a decent filter and add a well made exhaust y-pipe merge and you gain more power, then aftermarket ecu and even more power is un-tamed.....so for sheer potential and the coolest celica around...lol.....

IN MY experience V6 is the only option........for me at least anyhow........

[fibrewizard]

oh and as for AWD V6...

i know a lad that is currently in the process of building this.........

so it can be done.....

AWD Twin Turbo V6 gt.....yes a AWD GT...... not an alltrac....

will hit him up to post some of his pics.... the Alltrac gearbox and block of engine need minor mods but it fits and works a charm.........

The lauch from this thing is gonna spin the earth off it AXIS

[Rusty]

3sge, I have decided against this

I guess your missing the T

go 3gen 3S-GE or BEAMS. if you need more convincing you could go see 2bcelica (dont know how close he is to you though?)


and as for parts... remember

[Cavegod]

we have a V6 GT4 in the uk, uses a Rav4 transfer box as the GT4 box won't bolt to the fe block.

[fibrewizard]

we have a V6 GT4 in the uk, uses a Rav4 transfer box as the GT4 box won't bolt to the fe block.

it does with minor mods..... but nice use of the rav 4 transfer case........... how is it with the rav4 diff centre......

[njccmd2002]

made a decision... few months i will have more details...

[K-ESD]

Well obviously I'm going to say go for a V6, trust me you won't regret it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VMmMCc0UM

here's to clear up and confirm some myths

no, it does not make your car heavy
mine weighs in at 1220kg with all my extras and 1/4 tank of gas

yes it can be done cheaper than the Beams

yes there is virtually unlimited amount of easy to find parts for cheap

yes, it's very good on gas when babied, it's not bad when floored, in fact it's far better than 5SFE in town.

and NO it does not make it hard to work on, at all
it's makes it easier to work on that a 5S, some people say that and they never worked on one or even seen one
there is plenty of room all around of the engine. I don't need to squeeze into tight spaces. I can reach any spot with a wrench from top or bottom, as long as my arm is long enough.

edit: and no you don't need a lowered custom cross member, i used the stock cross member + GT4 mounts with E153, you can even use the stock GT tranny but it's not as strong.

This post has been edited by K-ESD: Sep 13, 2009 - 8:01 AM

[Edophus]

being a beams man myself i'll stick up for the beams to keep things from being one sided , It makes a lot of sense to choose the v6 for sure, and i think it'll make for a better road car, and economics and parts availability is a major factor in any choice, but if your looking for outright speed without opening the engine up i think the beams still has the edge, simply because the power band of the v6 is not matched to the gearboxes available to you.

Also i know of two 1mz-fe's here in the uk that are making 10bhp less than an unopened beams with the same mods and same aftermarket ecu, tuned by the same guy on the same dyno, and thats at only 7000rpm so not taking advantage of the engines rev potential which means with an ecu the beams keeps making power up to 8000rpm ( and beyond if you dont like your bottom end ), where as the v6 will probably be shifting 1500-2000rpm earlier. There are tuning parts available for the beams but its not a cheap engine to tune for sure, and your limited to only a few sources for parts, plus the knowlodge is heald by only a few people but it is all out there.

There is also a lot of subtle differences, such as the oiling of the engine, its only really relevant in a track situation though but the beams is a race engine ( it was built to race in N1 endurance, and formula 3000 where the rules mean you cant modify the engine ) so has sufficient oiling and baffling from the off whilst the v6's can overheat quite easily in the same scenario's because they carry the same amount of oil but the v6 has a lot more parts to cool. A lot of work has gone into the beams in this area which is obvious when you note things like the external oil drain from the side of the head to the sump etc. Toyota still use the beams for racing, its still in formula 3000, and is currently powering the s2000 corolla in rally's.

Also the weight of the 1mz is pertty much identical to the beams, with the beams probably a kilo or 2 lighter, people say the v6 is lighter, but thats because there comparing it to the 3s-gte, which has a turbo hanging off the side, and an intercooler sitting on top, the turbo alone weighs about 14kg.

heres a vid, excuse the poor quality you'll really need to peer at it, of a 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear pull in my old beams, its up a slight uphill but not that much to make a huge difference, i also had a bust thermostat, but i let it heat up before the run so i dont think it would have been pulling ignition timing. I tried to edit the vid in sony vegas to make it brighter but it wouldnt work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXWuBR_5HGA

I usually say to people if its a track car then beams, if its a road car v6. I will say for most folk the v6 is going to be the more entertaining option because of the torque and noise.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Sep 13, 2009 - 1:55 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

very nice reply edophus. you always know what to say and have very useful information that members can go back on.

hold up a sec k-esd. your telling me that your car weighs 1220kg. i think the celica with redtop weights in a 1185 kg = 2600 pounds. is this true edophus

[K-ESD]

I agree with you for the most part Edophus, very well said.

However, we have the gearbox that matches the engine. The E-153 is perfect for a V6, wide enough to make good use of the torque curve. It also comes with the Solara V6 with a slightly wider final gear.
I still think the V6 has it's place in the racing world, maybe not endurance but enthusiast track racing for sure. A lot of Mr2 guys are ditching their NA and turbo 4 bangers for V6s for racing purposes.

also keep in mind there are 5 V6 options, the 1MZ is only of one them and far from the best. I would only get a 1MZ at a dirt cheap price, then slap on a TRD SC.
a non-vvti 1MZ would be in par with the 3SGE power wise but look at the 1MZ vvti (220), 5VZ (201) and 3MZ (230), all of them over 200HP.

now lets throw the 2GRFE into the mix

276WHP bone stock reliable and still gets 30MPG, anyone want that?
This thing would rival even a slightly built 3SGTE

The V6s has many advantages in racing just like the 3SGE has it's advantages but, like you said, what's best is all about what the person wants to do with the car.


now to steer away from my V6 biasing....
I'm bored of the 3MZFE and moving into a higher power goal (300HP+). I'm picking up a 96 MR2 turbo next weekend. This will be my next project car, I guess hanging around in the MR2 boards influenced me enough to get one. The 2GRFE would have been too much for a FWD platform, I needed a change and want to experience a turbo car. I am considering stuffing a 2GRFTE (FTE !!) in the MR2 at some point in the future if it's feasible and financially possible for me.

[SwissFerdi]

Where does the 2GRFE come from?

[Jamchell]

Where does the 2GRFE come from?

The 2GR-FE is a 3.5 L (3456 cc) version. Bore remains at 94 mm but stroke is reduced to 83 mm. Reported output varies depending on the vehicle application, but is approximately 268 hp (200 kW) at 6200 rpm with 248 lb·ft (336 N·m) of torque at 4700 rpm on 87 octane (R+M/2). This version features Toyota's Dual VVT-i, variable valve timing on both the intake and exhaust cams. Valves are driven by roller-follower rocker arms with low friction roller bearings, and a unique, concave cam lobe design to increase valve lift over the traditional shimless lifter type system of the 1GR-FE. This increases overall cylinder head height to accommodate the slightly taller roller rocker system. Moreover, the cylinder head is segmented into 3 parts: valve cover, camshaft sub-assembly housing, and cylinder head sub-assembly. As such, this valvetrain is used across all other GR engines with Dual VVT-i. Its service weight is 163kg.
Applications:
2005 Toyota Avalon (GSX30)
2006 Toyota Aurion (GSV40)
2007 TRD Aurion (Eaton Twin-Vortices TRD supercharger)
2006 Toyota RAV4 (GSA33/38)
2006 Toyota Estima (GSR50/55)
2006 Toyota Previa (GSR50)
2006 Toyota Tarago (GSR50)
2007 Toyota Camry (GSV40)
2007 Toyota Sienna (GSL20/23/25)
2007 Lexus ES 350 (GSV40)
2007 Lexus RX 350 (GSU30/35)
2007 Toyota Harrier (GSU30/31/35/36)
2007 Toyota Vanguard (GSA33)
2009 Lexus RX 350 (GGL10/15/16)
2007 Toyota Kluger (GSU40/45)
2007 Toyota Blade (GRE156)
2007 Toyota Mark X Zio (GGA10)
2008 Toyota Alphard (GGH20/25)
2008 Toyota Vellfire (GGH20/25)
2008 Toyota Highlander (GSU40/45)
2009 Toyota Venza (GGV10/15)
2009 Lotus Evora (280ps & 350Nm using Lotus engine management, Sport Pack package redline increased to 7000rpm)

Wikipedia is your friend!

Might be kind of steep in price though

[njccmd2002]

Well this has been a very interesting thread, it seems like both are good choices. Trying to steer away from the turbo for now. Thanks for all the participation. 2GR-FE sounds like fun, in a couple of years

I have made my mind, and i want both. however i can only start with one. Down the road may look at the other one.

200HP is fine for me now. And the process has just begun!!!!!

[SlvrCelica09]

good luck

This post has been edited by SlvrCelica09: Sep 13, 2009 - 11:43 PM

[RavenAegis45]

well everyones adding there 2 cents so i'll just add mine as well. the Beams does have alot going for it being a 3S-GE it does have aftermarket support no doubt about that plus most people just love the High RPMs it can reach which make it an awesome engine for the track. But of course it lacks torque in the lower Revs however since it has VVT-i it's not as bad as older versions of the 3S-GE. the VZ series is usually older and has a Cast Iron block which can withstand high PSi if you ever plan on boosting it especially if you get the latest versions, but there not as common as they are over sea's. the MZ series is a good engine to go with also since it's all Aluminum which is light and later models have VVT-i and make pretty good power numbers an yes they have alot more torque than 4 cylinders. Plus there incredibly common engines in the US. But IMO i would get the early VVT-i MZ versions found is some lexus models that have Duel throttle Bodies with Aluminum Intake Manifolds over the single throttle bodied ABS Manifolds of newer versions. ofcourse you can always swap those manifolds over to newer models... At least I think you can. Well thats my 2 cents hope it helped.

[Edophus]

thanks chaps i just try and remain balanced!, ah yeah i'm forgetting about the e153 , i sometimes feel the s54 doesnt let you take advantage of all that torque. I think also the v6 for sure can be good for racing, i do know of some really powerfull fully built ones used for endurance racing, which is why i say if your not opening the engine up its probably more dependant on what you intend to do with it as to which is best, however if you intend to do a full on engine build, then its hard to see past the extra capacity of the v6.

mmm i love the 2gr-fe, i'm putting a blacktop beams in my gen 3 celica, as much because its rwd configuration makes it easier to install in the gen 3 as anything else, but i think when the time comes for more power, i wont be tuning the beams but will step up to the 2gr-fe hopefully by then they will be easier to get and cheaper too.

bonzai - the stock weight of the ss3 beams is 1210kg, the superstrut setup adds a bit of weight to the front so a mac strut celica with a beams would be around 1190-1200ish so yeah your about right i'd say.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Sep 14, 2009 - 4:34 AM

[K-ESD]

for more on the 2GRFE

visit this link http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=332390

it is the mainstream swap of the future for all toyotas that it fits. Can't wait to see someone try it in a 6GC.

and the question remains, does it bolt up to a AWD GT4 trans? if a header can fit behind the intermediate shaft and the block, there has to be room for the center dif of the GT4. I know I can barely squeeze my hand behind the shaft and block on my 3MZ and there's only aprox 10mm that doesn't clear for the center dif.



sorry for going a little off topic

[Edophus]

it is the mainstream swap of the future for all toyotas that it fits. Can't wait to see someone try it in a 6GC.

completely agree, in my eyes the 2gr-fe has pretty much rendered the beams/vz/mz and even the 1uz v8 engines redundant, or at least it will do once there a bit easier and cheaper to get the dual vvti and true dohc will make these engines very tunable aswell so i suspect the stock power is a lot less than there true potential.