Possible electrical problem?, PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED!! Options

[jordisonjr]

Alright 6gc, I tried using the search, and really couldn't find anything.

My celica is acting really weird.
Whenever I drive it, the revs randomly rise and fall really speradically. Its really inconsistant, and when they go up and down, the whoel car jerks, almost like when someone is lerning to drive 5 speed.
At first I thought it was my clutch slipping on the flywheel, but then my dad checked it out and thought it seemed for electrical.
Then my buddy checked it ou and said it was my distributor and that I should change my cap and rotor.
So I changed my cap and rotor, and its still got the problem.
I really don't know what to do, its my daily driver, and its to the point where it barely drives becasue I don't want to damage anything else.

I took a video on my phone, to give you a better idea of what its doing, I know its real bad quality, but hopefully it'll help.



This post has been edited by jordisonjr: Sep 30, 2011 - 9:37 AM

[joesmith94celica...]

I had a consistent drop in revs on my first 94 GT, previous owner had put in splitfire plugs and the electrode on one was so far beyond fouled it was almost no presence of a gap. Replaced the plugs with reg platinum Bosch and the problem went away.
You said it rises on its own though? You recently do anything to the ECU? Does the spring wind on the throttle cable return assembly look loose or crooked?

[jordisonjr]

it doesn' really rise. but like if your just driving normal, it will jump up revs like 100 or 200.
Haven't done anything to the ecu and the throttle cable looks to be good.
Do you think bad plugs would cause this?

Thanks for the quick reply btw

[joesmith94celica...]

plugs is doubtful for the rise.

wish I could be of more assistance. That is one that I've not experienced a jump in revs while driving. I would be starting at the throttle plate and work my way back from there. Injectors maybe?

I would call Car Talk. You can post the problem on their website and get a reply in about 48-72 hours.

[jordisonjr]

Is the near the throttle body? What should I look for? Thanks a lo for the help, I appreciate it

[SleekCelica]

ECM.

[mikew04]

I had the same problem, bad grounds. I would sand all of them down and use a tiny bit of dielectric grease for good measure.

This post has been edited by mikew04: Sep 24, 2010 - 6:27 PM

[jordisonjr]

on every single ground on the car?
Sand botch contact points on the ground?

[mikew04]

The large grounds in the engine bay... battery to chassis, chassis to engine, etc. (whatever it happens to be, I upgraded mine so I forget what the stock locations are.)
Sand wherever the connection is made. The grease will keep water to prevent corrosion.
It's not bad, just have to take the airbox out to get to the transmission contact point. Hopefully it will solve your problem.

[jordisonjr]

Alright Thanks man ill try it out this weekend.
My car has had a CEL for a while, so I thought to check it out hinking maybe i had something to do with it

So I got a CEL 12, which means, "No G or NE signal is input to the ECUfor 2 secs. or more after STA turns ON"

It said the problem area would be"
• Open or short in NE, G circuit
• Distributor
• Open or short in STA circuit
• ECU

I got This from the guide in the Stickies here: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?act=at...ost&id=1059

I don't really understand any of this, any ideas?

[mgnt232]

Im not sure if it would jump up from the bad ground? I know mine were bad when i got the car and itwould bog going around a corner too fast (assuming it moved a little)
And in the winter, my positive connection to my computer (not sure if direct to computer but wasnt the starter wire) was loose, and I could only explain it like someone learning to drive a stick. the power would loose and the gauges went crazy
OH! are the gauges going crazyish? Like do the other ones move at all when this all happens?

[Spider77]

Alright Thanks man ill try it out this weekend.
My car has had a CEL for a while, so I thought to check it out hinking maybe i had something to do with it

So I got a CEL 12, which means, "No G or NE signal is input to the ECUfor 2 secs. or more after STA turns ON"

It said the problem area would be"
• Open or short in NE, G circuit
• Distributor
• Open or short in STA circuit
• ECU

I got This from the guide in the Stickies here: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?act=at...ost&id=1059

I don't really understand any of this, any ideas?

It pretty much means you need to take resistance reading from your dizzy. Also, check the air gap. There is also something about checking the harness for shorts. I had this CEL before....and after looking for a dizzy that was reasonable priced (which is hard for a Cali Spec) I decided to ride it out, change my plugs, and advance my timing a bit (which was by accident as I forgot to mark the position of my dizzy) and I have not had a problem since. Not saying this wont work, but It did for me, and I plan on using this as a band aid, cause I really do need a new dizzy.

[jordisonjr]

Im not sure if it would jump up from the bad ground? I know mine were bad when i got the car and itwould bog going around a corner too fast (assuming it moved a little)
And in the winter, my positive connection to my computer (not sure if direct to computer but wasnt the starter wire) was loose, and I could only explain it like someone learning to drive a stick. the power would loose and the gauges went crazy
OH! are the gauges going crazyish? Like do the other ones move at all when this all happens?

It feels exactly like someone learning to drive stick, and the Tach is the only gauge that does crazy/ like its jumps all around and ****.
That problem was caused by the positive connection with the computer being loose?

Alright Thanks man ill try it out this weekend.
My car has had a CEL for a while, so I thought to check it out hinking maybe i had something to do with it

So I got a CEL 12, which means, "No G or NE signal is input to the ECUfor 2 secs. or more after STA turns ON"

It said the problem area would be"
• Open or short in NE, G circuit
• Distributor
• Open or short in STA circuit
• ECU

I got This from the guide in the Stickies here: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?act=at...ost&id=1059

I don't really understand any of this, any ideas?

It pretty much means you need to take resistance reading from your dizzy. Also, check the air gap. There is also something about checking the harness for shorts. I had this CEL before....and after looking for a dizzy that was reasonable priced (which is hard for a Cali Spec) I decided to ride it out, change my plugs, and advance my timing a bit (which was by accident as I forgot to mark the position of my dizzy) and I have not had a problem since. Not saying this wont work, but It did for me, and I plan on using this as a band aid, cause I really do need a new dizzy.

So My Dizzy is most likely done?
By changing your plugs and advancing your timing it was temporarily fixed? I don't really want to do anything with my timing cause I don't wanna make things worse, and I dno't really know how to do that, but would new plugs help out at all?

[jordisonjr]

Alright so I went back, and checked the ecu connections and nothing.
Took it for a ride around my bay, it drove good for about 5 laps and then started acting up again.
When siting in neutral and revving the motor, it also does it.
I took a better video of revvin it while in Neutral, but the jumps weren't as extreme as before but they seem to start jumping around 3000 or so.



At some spots it seems as if the video glitches, but thats atcually the revs jumping.
Each time was a consistant rev, and where it seems like its not, thats the issue.

I really don't know what this could be, cause it seems like it only starts once it is warm, but it also seems like an electrical issue.
Like I said this is my daily driver, so any help is awesome.
thanks guys

This post has been edited by jordisonjr: Sep 26, 2010 - 1:18 PM

[Spider77]

Well for me it worked, not saying that its a 100% fix by any means, but I have not had any of the symptoms since. The only way to know for sure if its your dizzy is to take those resistance readings. But to make this easier, here is the text outta the guide.

DTC 12 - RPM SIGNAL (EXCEPT CALIF.)
The distributor assembly contains 3 pick-up coils. The "G" signal informs ECM of the standard crankshaft position. The "NE" signal informs ECM of the crankshaft position and engine speed.
If "NE" signal is not present to ECM within 2 seconds or more with engine cranking, check for open or short in the "G" or "NE" circuit, or for faulty distributor.
If "G" signal is not present from ECM for 3 seconds or more with engine speed of 600-4000 RPM, check for open or short in "STA" circuit or for a faulty ECM.
It also goes on to give a 3 step process on how to check this....
1.)Check resistance of each pickup coils in dizzy...if good go to step 2, if bad replace dizzy housing.
2.)Check for open or short in harness and connector between ECM and Dizzy. If good go to step 3, if bad repair or replace harness/connector
3.)Check air gap. If good check/replace ECM, if bad replace dizzy housing.
And here is a handy pic w/resistance readings


Hope this helps a bit

This post has been edited by Spider77: Sep 26, 2010 - 1:47 PM

[jordisonjr]

thanks a lot man, I really don't know what i would do without this website haha.
Im in the process of checking all the grounds while I waitfor my budy with a mulitmeter.

[Spider77]

Hey, NP, I know how it is to have a DD that needs to run with minimal problems. Hope the pic helps out! I had a problem getting readings, as it was real hard to see the male ends to put the leads on. But I was alone, with a buddy and a mirror you should be able to do it without removing the dizzy!

This post has been edited by Spider77: Sep 26, 2010 - 2:54 PM

[jordisonjr]

unfortunately Im still waiting for my buddy to come over. Its been a few hours now.
Gotta love waiting for people ..

[stephen_lee]

its more than likely your dizzy.

[jordisonjr]

yea, due to unreliable friends, and my very minimal mechanical skills, Im waiting for my mechanic to come ove ron monday to check it out.
Im geting my wisdom teeth yanked tomorrow so Ill be out for most of the weekend anyways.

[jordisonjr]

Well for me it worked, not saying that its a 100% fix by any means, but I have not had any of the symptoms since. The only way to know for sure if its your dizzy is to take those resistance readings. But to make this easier, here is the text outta the guide.

DTC 12 - RPM SIGNAL (EXCEPT CALIF.)
The distributor assembly contains 3 pick-up coils. The "G" signal informs ECM of the standard crankshaft position. The "NE" signal informs ECM of the crankshaft position and engine speed.
If "NE" signal is not present to ECM within 2 seconds or more with engine cranking, check for open or short in the "G" or "NE" circuit, or for faulty distributor.
If "G" signal is not present from ECM for 3 seconds or more with engine speed of 600-4000 RPM, check for open or short in "STA" circuit or for a faulty ECM.
It also goes on to give a 3 step process on how to check this....
1.)Check resistance of each pickup coils in dizzy...if good go to step 2, if bad replace dizzy housing.
2.)Check for open or short in harness and connector between ECM and Dizzy. If good go to step 3, if bad repair or replace harness/connector
3.)Check air gap. If good check/replace ECM, if bad replace dizzy housing.
And here is a handy pic w/resistance readings


Hope this helps a bit

After checking the resistance in the NE and G circuit, how do i know if its good or bad. Would cold be considered good and hot bad?

[stephen_lee]

read the post you quoted completely. its in there

[SleekCelica]

I"m telling ya, those distributors rarely go bad in that way. Usually they leak oil, but it's going to be your ecu. If it's really intermittent, it is your ecu.

[stephen_lee]

i have a 5s auto ecm, and a 5s dizzy. if you want either or both PM me

[jordisonjr]

I"m telling ya, those distributors rarely go bad in that way. Usually they leak oil, but it's going to be your ecu. If it's really intermittent, it is your ecu.

So if its my ECM i basically Just have to replace it? What exacly is the ECM?
I called up my mechanic and explained the problem, and he said it my be the EGR, does that seem possible?

[Spider77]

Maybe, maybe not..........I just gave you the info regarding the CEL you popped.

[DEATH]

I"m telling ya, those distributors rarely go bad in that way. Usually they leak oil, but it's going to be your ecu. If it's really intermittent, it is your ecu.

So if its my ECM i basically Just have to replace it? What exacly is the ECM?
I called up my mechanic and explained the problem, and he said it my be the EGR, does that seem possible?

The EGR isn't gonna cause that. I 3rd the ECU thing - D-man had similar problems. Buy Stephen's ECU and be done with it.
The ECU is the onboard computer that controls your engine. It is located underneath and forward of the radio - easily accessed from the PS carpet. Just pull the carpet back and you will see a squarish silver box with "5S-FE" printed on it and 3 wire connectors with a sh!tton of wires coming out - that's it. Easily replaced in 15mins by any novice.

[jordisonjr]

Is the ECM and ECU the same thing?
I've come to the conclustion that this problem is over my head to diagnose, and the car is going in tomorrow to get a professional opinion.

I appreciate everyones input, and after hearing from the mechanic that if it was the distributor it wouldn't start(I don't know why I didn't realize that earlier) I'm kinda leaning towards the ECU as well.
THanks DEATH for the input. Ill contact Steph soon, if thats the probelm.

[jordisonjr]

Picked my car up, and the shop told me its my clutch.
I dunno how I didn't figure that out.
I was expecing it to rev a lot more when it slipped, not just like 100 or 200 rpm.
So it'll be winter here in about a month or so, so Im just gunna put the car away cause I can't really afford a new clutch, and it doesn't really make sense if its just gunna sit over winter anyways.

[Rook]

Picked my car up, and the shop told me its my clutch.
I dunno how I didn't figure that out.
I was expecing it to rev a lot more when it slipped, not just like 100 or 200 rpm.
So it'll be winter here in about a month or so, so Im just gunna put the car away cause I can't really afford a new clutch, and it doesn't really make sense if its just gunna sit over winter anyways.

Its your clutch?! are you freaking kidding me?! lol. UGH! I'm having the exact same stupid problem. for months now. Its driving me NUTS i wanna push the car over a cliff or pull out a gun and shoot the f*** out of it!!
So far I've replaced every part of the ignition system (dizzy, cap, rotor, plug wires, plugs, coil, igniter, condenser, and even the freaking battery!!!) and it also has a new clutch. cleaned out the throttle body. nothing. Intermittenly stumbles worse than yours i may add. Drives like if my girl was driving it (she doesn't know how to drive stick.) Oof. Had about 5 seasoned techs look at it. Three of them from work (i work at Toyota) WITH the freaking Toyota scan tool (TIS) and nothing. The three techs from work told me to swap the ECU's so i'm trying to find it. My entire dash and some of my center console is apart from looking for it today but i ran out of time at work. haha.

[bmj67]

ecu is on the floor behind the center console. just pull back the carpet in the pass side and you will see it

[jordisonjr]

Picked my car up, and the shop told me its my clutch.
I dunno how I didn't figure that out.
I was expecing it to rev a lot more when it slipped, not just like 100 or 200 rpm.
So it'll be winter here in about a month or so, so Im just gunna put the car away cause I can't really afford a new clutch, and it doesn't really make sense if its just gunna sit over winter anyways.

Its your clutch?! are you freaking kidding me?! lol. UGH! I'm having the exact same stupid problem. for months now. Its driving me NUTS i wanna push the car over a cliff or pull out a gun and shoot the f*** out of it!!
So far I've replaced every part of the ignition system (dizzy, cap, rotor, plug wires, plugs, coil, igniter, condenser, and even the freaking battery!!!) and it also has a new clutch. cleaned out the throttle body. nothing. Intermittenly stumbles worse than yours i may add. Drives like if my girl was driving it (she doesn't know how to drive stick.) Oof. Had about 5 seasoned techs look at it. Three of them from work (i work at Toyota) WITH the freaking Toyota scan tool (TIS) and nothing. The three techs from work told me to swap the ECU's so i'm trying to find it. My entire dash and some of my center console is apart from looking for it today but i ran out of time at work. haha.

Wow thats intense dude.
My cars put away for winter now and i believed it was a clutch.
But after hearing you just had yours replaced, makes me think twice.
If you change out your ECU and it fixes your problem you should definately let me know, cause then that might mean i don't need a clutch just yet which would be awesome.
I know mine was going, but it kinda started out of no where, so maybe its not the clutch, but who knows.
Anyways, could you let me know if you have the solution to the problem, cause that would save me a ton if i didn't have to do the clutch before i brought it out of storage haha.

[Rook]

of course of course. lol

I found the ECM today. Just as Death said (Thanks Death. lol) its very easily accessible behind the radio on the floor and easily changed out within 15 minutes by any novice (or rook such as myself ) lol. Got the part number and am searching for the computer now.

Went to ask at parts and ran into some info. There is a TSB out on ECM#89661-2D690. Something about fuel or something. Should've paid better attention sorry. lol. It should be replaced with ECM#89661-2D692 on 96-97 Toyota Celica and Camry models with a manual tranny. Idk anyway hopefully one of the techs has one laying around. Hear the shop foreman has a ton locked up in a cabinet at work. I'll let you know man. In the meanwhile I'll be searching

[mkernz22]

The ECU is the part that you are replacing, what the hell is an ECM? lol

[jordisonjr]

of course of course. lol

I found the ECM today. Just as Death said (Thanks Death. lol) its very easily accessible behind the radio on the floor and easily changed out within 15 minutes by any novice (or rook such as myself ) lol. Got the part number and am searching for the computer now.

Went to ask at parts and ran into some info. There is a TSB out on ECM#89661-2D690. Something about fuel or something. Should've paid better attention sorry. lol. It should be replaced with ECM#89661-2D692 on 96-97 Toyota Celica and Camry models with a manual tranny. Idk anyway hopefully one of the techs has one laying around. Hear the shop foreman has a ton locked up in a cabinet at work. I'll let you know man. In the meanwhile I'll be searching

Whats a TSB? and you're saying the ECU is supposed to be replaced in our car with one froma 96 - 97 camry? Could this be why our cars are acting so strange?

[jordisonjr]

Well for some reason the issue magically fixed itself over storage haha. No but seriously, I took the car out of storage and got the clutch fixed (which was slipping anyways) and have been driving it for about a month but the problem is back again.

Turns out it wasn't the clutch like the shop said.
So now I'm back to square one.
But I think I'm just going to bring the car to the stealership now, because I've tried testing the distributor with a multimeter, but couldn't figure it out.
And i've done a ton of searching thats come up unanswered.
Toyota wants 80 bucks to scan and diagnose the problem, which is actually cheaper than any of the other shops I called surprisingly.
And then I can decide from there what to do with the car.

[stephen_lee]

ecu or dizzy

[azian_advanced]

maybe i'm not thinking straight so correct me if i'm wrong but couldn't this be an air leak? not saying it's a permanent air leak like a hole in the hoses because otherwise that would cause a constant rev, but one of the valves could be malfunctioning (EGR valve, A/C VSV, etc.). since the engine is revving really high, i don't see how it would be a dizzy or ecu issue. only way to rev that high is if there is enough air being injested by the engine.



another guy (from mr2.com) had a similar issue with high idle and basically pulled off each hose from the intake manifold and capped it until he singled out the problem.

but since you had used TB cleaner which caused the high idle, i'd start with checking the EGR system. you may have cleared up a previous leak (carbon build-up) or destroyed the gaskets with the cleaner.

this is just how i would diagnose the problem..

[jordisonjr]

Azian, are you referring to the high idle(3000) that I just referred to in another thread that was caused by spraying the carb cleaner in?
If so, the idle has dropped back down and idles around 1000k.
But when this "odd reving" isue occurs, at idle, it will jump around a couple RPM(mayb 100 or so?) and when you pop the hood, you can see the motor moving around when the rpm drops, but when it is steady, the motor doesn't move at all(hopefully that makes sense).

So you think i should pull the vaccum lines off one by one, and cap it off, and if having one of the lines off and capped, the problem stops, then that hose probably has a hole in it? Someone earlier thought it may have been egr, but then someone else posted in this thread that it most likely isn't and that i shoudl be leaning towards the ECU or Dizzy like the CEL says.

[stephen_lee]

a hose leak wont really make an effect when your actually driving, esp since this is a 5s, and uses a MAP sensor.

[jordisonjr]

^ so you're thinking dizzy or ecu?
Whats the easiest way to eliminate either of the two, without actually swapping parts out?
Is that possible?

[Spider77]

You still dealing with this? BTW, I had no idea that there was a bulletin out on the ECU. Have a friend that had the same problem with his rolla, went to the dealership to swap out ECU (there was a bulletin on it) and it runs fine now.....something bout a poor solder job or some such. But if there is indeed a bulletin on your ECU, get it taken care of.

[jordisonjr]

Yea I am, I thought the problem was solved, but I guess I was wrong.
What do you mean a bulletin? like a recall?
That would be awesome if there was and that solved my issue.
Because I semm to have heardquite a few people having to replace the ECU on a 5s..
Wasn't planning to get it from toyota, but called oiut of curiousity and they want 2500$ for a new ecu..

[toyotatech3]

You still dealing with this? BTW, I had no idea that there was a bulletin out on the ECU. Have a friend that had the same problem with his rolla, went to the dealership to swap out ECU (there was a bulletin on it) and it runs fine now.....something bout a poor solder job or some such. But if there is indeed a bulletin on your ECU, get it taken care of.

Its a recall 05-06 corolla/matrix. the 6g celica does not have any recalls. and the ECm would be the last thing i would replace

[stephen_lee]

i have a 5s dizzy if u need it.

[Spider77]

You still dealing with this? BTW, I had no idea that there was a bulletin out on the ECU. Have a friend that had the same problem with his rolla, went to the dealership to swap out ECU (there was a bulletin on it) and it runs fine now.....something bout a poor solder job or some such. But if there is indeed a bulletin on your ECU, get it taken care of.

Its a recall 05-06 corolla/matrix. the 6g celica does not have any recalls. and the ECm would be the last thing i would replace

Quoting Rook here---->
"Went to ask at parts and ran into some info. There is a TSB out on ECM#89661-2D690. Something about fuel or something. Should've paid better attention sorry. lol. It should be replaced with ECM#89661-2D692 on 96-97 Toyota Celica and Camry models with a manual tranny. Idk anyway hopefully one of the techs has one laying around. Hear the shop foreman has a ton locked up in a cabinet at work. I'll let you know man. In the meanwhile I'll be searching"
Maybe there is one, maybe there isn't...I don't know for sure off the top of my head, was referencing the 'Rolla one because that was the problem with my friends. But Im gunna guess by your name you would know more than I would when it comes to the bulletins. Being that I dont really feel like paying cash to view all TSB's, I did come across a few for the Celica, but nothing for the ECU.

[toyotatech3]

You still dealing with this? BTW, I had no idea that there was a bulletin out on the ECU. Have a friend that had the same problem with his rolla, went to the dealership to swap out ECU (there was a bulletin on it) and it runs fine now.....something bout a poor solder job or some such. But if there is indeed a bulletin on your ECU, get it taken care of.

Its a recall 05-06 corolla/matrix. the 6g celica does not have any recalls. and the ECm would be the last thing i would replace

Quoting Rook here---->
"Went to ask at parts and ran into some info. There is a TSB out on ECM#89661-2D690. Something about fuel or something. Should've paid better attention sorry. lol. It should be replaced with ECM#89661-2D692 on 96-97 Toyota Celica and Camry models with a manual tranny. Idk anyway hopefully one of the techs has one laying around. Hear the shop foreman has a ton locked up in a cabinet at work. I'll let you know man. In the meanwhile I'll be searching"
Maybe there is one, maybe there isn't...I don't know for sure off the top of my head, was referencing the 'Rolla one because that was the problem with my friends. But Im gunna guess by your name you would know more than I would when it comes to the bulletins. Being that I dont really feel like paying cash to view all TSB's, I did come across a few for the Celica, but nothing for the ECU.

sorry ive done so many of those corolla ECM's that was the first thing i thought of from your post.
heres the TSB you were talking about.

TSB
Introduction To improve engine operating smoothness when driving on downhill grades, the engine
ECM program logic has been changed.
Affected �� 1996 model year Camrys and 1996–1997 model year Celicas with 5S–FE
Vehicles engine and manual transmission. Parts Information
�� New parts may be used on previous vehicles. Old parts cannot be used on newer
vehicles. Warranty Information
Applicable Warranty:
This repair is covered under the Toyota Powertrain Warranty. This warranty is in
effect for 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle’s
in–service date.

December 12, 1997
Title: 5S–FE ECM TAU FUEL CUT LOGIC CHANGED
Models: ’96 Camry, ’96–’97 Celica
EG009–97
OLD PART NUMBER..... NEW PART NUMBER ..... NEW PART NAME & APPLICATION
89661–2D290,89661–2D690,89661–2D691,.... 89661–2D692.... ECM, CELICA, MTM, FED. SPEC.
89661–2D711, .... 89661–2D712,.... ECM, CELICA, MTM, CAL. SPEC.
1996 Camry 96–97 Celica R&R Engine Control Module

[jordisonjr]

Mine is a 1995, so does that mean its not included?

[stephen_lee]

not included

[jordisonjr]

Well after about a year, and a wild goose chase of this problem,and changing a lot of parts, with the help of 6gc.net I've finally solved the problem.

Turns out that on of the pick up coils in my distributor was not working correctly.
Change out the distributor and solved the problem.
Took it to toyota to get it scanned with hopes that the CEL which had came on a year before the problem started was maybe related to my issues.
Turns out it was, but I still don't get why the light would come on, and the car would not have any problems drivinguntill almost a year after.
But at least its fixed now.

[Spider77]

Glad you got this problem solved!