Feeler: Clear Headlight Lenses, Please vote! Options

[KAOS]

** I'm not sure if this needs approval because its in the Exterior Styling area, but mods please let me know... thanks! **

So - I have been in talks with local companies (in Canada) that are willing to work with me to help create one of two clear lenses for our headlamps.

I've been researching two different ways;

Method #1: The poly injection method, which involves creating a polished steel mold for each headlight lens and is quite expensive, but would be a direct replacement for the glass, and sturdy as hell.

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NedTUB7YQE0&NR=1

Method #2: The usual plexiglass/poly mold method, done in the past; however I have a different blueprint for how I'd like them molded so still very little customization would be needed (hopefully) to make them fit/seal properly. Pro's: definately more cost effective, and cons would be; there could be a ton of modifications to get them to work properly (MAYBE, depending on if my idea works) & they would take more time to make (high turnaround time).

I have a quote from the first project/idea, and its not "pretty" but I would prefer to go that route if possible because of the quality and the idea of having a direct replacement is very appealing to myself (having dealt with the clear lens molds from prior buys...)

I know what the previous clear lenses went for $$-wise, but in order to gauge what project I start, I need to know who's interested in what. I need to know the volume perspective to see if it will be worth while (and I'd get my invested money back) to go the first route... or if there's little to no interest for the clears, then I would pursue the molding method #2.

Post up with what you would prefer, and what you would be willing to spend on them.

PS - just a rough estimate; to make Method #1 a possibility, I would need to have at LEAST 200 units made... so yeah.

Summary:

1) Polycarbonate Injection Molding: MORE $$, DIRECT REPLACEMENT, GREAT QUALITY.

2) Poly/Lexan Heated Molding: LESS $$ than Injection Molding, NOT DIRECT REPLACEMENT (but possibly very close), still great quality, but long turn around time

PLEASE VOTE!

This post has been edited by KAOS: Oct 21, 2010 - 3:10 PM

[SynysterSt204]

Do it! id be willing to buy and im sure everyone else who doesnt wanna pay 800 for the projectors would as well lol

[350niZmo]

oh yeah. im interested too....ive already ordered some projectors from japan so it may take about 3 weeks for them to arrive...but i would definitely be intersted in the plexiglass/poly mold method.

[illneversellmyce...]

id buy, i just finished my projector retrofit and need the lenses

[deathdoakill]

hey guys im pretty knowlegable about this subject ive been making clear lenses tht go on the front bumper of our cars tht cover the headlights themselves for a month or so now idk if this is wut you are talking about but ive also made clear lenses that go on the headlights themselves replacing the glass if you want any info on this process it is very easy to do and low cost as well i can
do a work up step by step on how to do them and fabrication process if this is wut your talking about im on my phone rght now so i couldnt read the whole post its hving issues let me know

[KAOS]

hey guys im pretty knowlegable about this subject ive been making clear lenses tht go on the front bumper of our cars tht cover the headlights themselves for a month or so now idk if this is wut you are talking about but ive also made clear lenses that go on the headlights themselves replacing the glass if you want any info on this process it is very easy to do and low cost as well i can
do a work up step by step on how to do them and fabrication process if this is wut your talking about im on my phone rght now so i couldnt read the whole post its hving issues let me know

Thats exactly what I'm talking about; except having it professionally done and mass-produced so we have guaranteed fitment and possibly a direct replacement for the entire glass peice so it fits like OEM.

[deathdoakill]

well mass produced i can find out there are lots of places to do this in san antonio if you want i can find some nmes here idk if thht would you out thgh

[KAOS]

well mass produced i can find out there are lots of places to do this in san antonio if you want i can find some nmes here idk if thht would you out thgh

LOL - this is why it would help to read the entire post.

I already have someone willing to make the lenses. The purpose of this post is to see who would be interested in what...

Polyethylene Injection direct replacements - Expensive...
~or~
Plexiglass or Lexan molds which require a bit of modding to fit - Cheap

Either method could be mass produced given the amount of interest. So in order to budget accordingly I need to know who is interested in what type of development.

[Random_Stranger]

Pending on how soon these are done, I would be willing to pick up a set and lower what I intended on selling my Celica for because I kind of want to keep my projectors and knock $1k off asking price just to keep these in case down the road I get another Celica. Or make a quick sale and sell off my projectors separately... Either way, time is the issue. I plan on having a 350whp-450whp MR2 Widebody by March to set off the start of my new car club.

This post has been edited by Random_Stranger: Oct 21, 2010 - 10:00 AM

[350niZmo]

Plexi-glass

[sphinxxx]

yea count me in! and a set for my buddy!
but make it cheap for Canadians as well please!

[HectortheRican]

I plan on having a 350whp-450whp MR2 Widebody by March to set off the start of my new car club.

Custom widebody or a TRD2000GT replica?

[mgnt232]

I would be donw for them! the only reason I would buy projectors is actually cause of the clear lenses lol!
count me in, hope you get the interest your looking for

[georgie]

im interested.
what were the prices of the old lenses? just so i can get a ballpark price

[HectortheRican]

I'm also interested depending on the price.

[KAOS]

im interested.
what were the prices of the old lenses? just so i can get a ballpark price

Rayme was selling his for $100USD. Rayme's Clear Lenses - Old Thread

If molded (if I go the Lexan/Polycarbonate molding route) with the cost of Lexan (very strong) and the mold being as "direct replacement" as possible the price would be a little more than what he posted.

I have that set he was selling in this link, in fact I have his entire retrofit (see link in my signature) and I had to completely tear apart the retrofit and rebuild it from scratch. The lenses were a pain to get seated/sealed properly. Not his fault at all... it will happen with the molding, which is why I'm gunning for the Polycarbonate Injection method, which would essentially be an exact replica of the headlamp GLASS, great strength; just clear.

... I probably could have explained that a bit better in the first post... LOL.

This post has been edited by KAOS: Oct 21, 2010 - 1:21 PM

[bccentaur3]

I'd be willing to pay 200, for the 4 lenses if fitment were to be pretty damn good.

[KAOS]

Ok - I've changed this thread to a poll because a lot of you have specified that you'd be interested, but not in what particular method you would prefer... which is the information I'd need to carry the project further... lol.

Please vote at the top of the thread.

Thanks.

[georgie]

Thanks for the info kaos, i'd be willing to pay 200ish for 4 lenses that fit 100% and drop in easily!

[350niZmo]

How much do you think you will sell the set of 4 clear lenses shipped? (ball park idea)

[808celica]

808 has spoken, do all 4 and the best material possible

if you need some $$ to get this going hit me up. I was planning on making silicone molds on my off time but never got around to. i was gonna sell my clear lens' too but somehow i lost them I did find them again but didnt log in here for a long time

im also doin silicone molds for the 77 cuz parts are soo damn hard to get

[KAOS]

Alright so I had a meeting with the owner of a major injection molding outfit here in Calgary this afternoon. Very smart guy, and very professional. I learned a lot in the half hour I was there.

The company that I talked to creates headlight lenses for GM using the same method! I was assured that the final product is lighter than glass; more durable, and OEM quality. No more rock chips in the lenses! Lightweight substitute! OEM quality & fitment!! Its too good to be true!

Unfortunately, it wasn't what I wanted to learn. I was unaware of the entire process needed for this little project of mine... turns out theres quite a bit of work to be done, and a lot of money to be invested in it.

But wait... it gets better!

The cost...

First; we need a CAD (digital) version of the lenses (~$1500CDN - not bad).
Once the CAD version has been created, test fitted, etc, then we need to machine the mold.

Now - we discussed mold types for the majority of my time there; the molds are all based on tonnage. The bigger the mold (if I wanted to make a mold of all 4 lenses at once) the more steel I would need to withstand roughly 900,000lbs of force for the injection... so obviously that means more $$$. To have a mold machined to handle all 4 at once would cost upwards of $80-100K. Yes, thats ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS worth of steel...

In the end, we came up with a casting that we could make that would have individual, swappable cores for each of the lenses, saving a lot of money in the mold making process.

We could have created the mold out of Alluminum for less $$$, but the final product would not be the 'crystal clear' that we all crave, so I put the kaibosh on that idea right away. Steel needs to be used because it can be machined so there are no imperfections in the final product; Crystal Clear & OEM quality.

To have this mold (AKA a "Tool") developed or "machined" would cost roughly around $50-$60k (thats THOUSAND).

It would cost roughly $10 in materials to cast a complete headlight set. (Sooo cheap, and for PERFECTION!)

So lets crunch these numbers together, just you & me .

Just for this example; I'll use the numbers from the polls.

I have 17 people interested in the Polycarbonate Injection version. Great!

Worst case scenario; to draft up the CAD version of the headlight lenses & create the Steel Tool required is going to cost $61,500CDN.

So for 17 runs of complete sets (all 4 lenses); the materials would cost $170CDN (easy math); now we're looking at an initial cost of $61,670CDN to get rolling. ( see where I'm going with this...?)

Selling a complete set at $310CDN (~$300USD, not including shipping); I would need to sell at LEAST 200 units to break even on this project.

Thats an enormous risk for me to take with only 17 people interested...

Unless those interested 17 are willing to pay $3700 for these lenses (which is a rhetorical joke, please do not flame me )...

With the market the way it is, I'm sure I could break even after a few months of selling them here, there & eBay. But the unfortunate factor is, I have to come up with the money before they will let me take the final product home to sell...

He said that it takes roughly 8-10wks to have the Steel Tool developed, then there may or may not be at least a 2 wk waiting period for orders (ie. there might be a line up of OTHER companies needing injections done), HOWEVER; they can crank out over 500 complete sets a day.


SUMMARY: Injection Molding is the cats-meow when it comes to replicating our lenses to OEM specs and standards; but the cost to get started is insane.

Options:
- They have specialized Leasing companies that will help me lease the "Tool" @ 7-8% interest rate - which doesn't matter because paying it off won't take much once the product is being developed.

- Waiting until I have 200 orders filled with money in my hand, and then starting the project. It would take a lot of trust for this community to do something like that, and I don't expect it to happen at all. Who knows how long it would take to get the money together this way, and even if I did; it would take ~5 months for everyone to get their product... at first anyways. Any additional runs after this would take less time.

- Thermoforming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoforming

- Acrylic Pouring: Essentially is just pouring a liquid hardening acrylic into a cast/mold and letting it set. I've been told they've been getting better at this, so there are little to no flaws in the final product.


Here's more information regarding Injection Molding: WIKI - Injection Molding


Let me know what you guys think!
Personally; I think it might be feasible. Like I said it shouldn't be hard to sell that many units, there just needs to be enough interest generated in order for me to be comfortable proceeding with the project. I'm obviously not going to invest ~$62,000 in something I don't believe I will break even on. I'm sure you all understand.

... and on that note; can anyone spot me a $100k note? Lolz

This post has been edited by KAOS: Oct 26, 2010 - 6:29 PM

[mgnt232]

holy ****!!
Didnt another member make them before? for relatively cheap? how did he make them?

[bccentaur3]

Might as well go out and get OE JDM projectors instead. Because even if we end up getting these lenses, we would still have to retro-fit our own choice of projectors and HID. Some might not look as clean as professional done up retrofits.

[KAOS]

Might as well go out and get OE JDM projectors instead. Because even if we end up getting these lenses, we would still have to retro-fit our own choice of projectors and HID. Some might not look as clean as professional done up retrofits.

These were designed for those in the community who were looking to do the retrofit already. Obviously you wouldn't be able to use clear lenses with the OEM Halogen bulbs. With the lack of light refraction in the clear lenses the visibility with halogens would be crap. IIRC, the halogens would melt through the plastic lenses anyways. (maybe not the injection molded ones, but why risk it?)

[bccentaur3]

I know this^

I'm just saying that its obvious that the people wanting the lenses already have plans to do the retrofit, but when it comes down to pricing a nice set of used projectors and hids would cost around 300, and then plus these lenses? Plus the time to do your own retrofitting.

Might as well go OE, It'll more than likely look cleaner.

[KAOS]

But for those of us who would like to have a customized retrofit, these lenses would be a no-brainer. I'd rather spend $500-600 on an entire retrofit project that I did myself, take pride in my work, and still be unique with the look of OEM, than spend ~$1000 for OEM projectors.

... mind you I do know a few of us who have been lucky getting the entire set for $500ish, but lets be honest, how often does that happen?

Either way, the lenses aren't for sale right now, and that price was just a rough estimate using the numbers given.

Obviously the more I make the better the price is going to be... but how could I ever get 300+ confirmed units? LoL.

I wouldn't spend that kind of money on OEM if I didn't have to. Yeah they would look good, but who's to say that someones custom retrofit wouldn't look BETTER/CLEANER...?

Anyways, I'll do some more research into the Thermoforming, and Pouring methods with different companies and get back to you guys. I haven't given up yet.