5s-fe to 3s-ge swap??? Options

[dyno305]

Hi everyone im a new member and im glad to see i have finally found some true celica fans from around the world ..... I got a few questions that i need to solve,I have a usdm celica gt automatic everybody knows it comes with the 5s-fe engine but i always wanted more power so ive been looking into buying a 3s-ge its the ideal engine for me i have found a couple of them on ebay im mostly looking for automatics. but all the ones ive found have the ecu wireing harness cut off do u guys no of anybody or anywhere that sells the harness or maybe somewhere i can get a 3sge with the ecu and its harness together i dont want to go through the pain of connecting all those cables. ohh and one last thing are there parts outhere for this engine? thank you

[Smaay]

read the stickys. a 3S-GE is not an engine to use if you want to make more power. now the 3S-GTE is another story. but again read the stickys!

[k-weaver]

If you've got the funds to swap a 3S-GE i'd save the money and dump it into your current motor. Get a set of cams and maybe a SAFC for tuning and i'm sure you would be happy. Also...As Smaay said read the stickies, lots of good info there.

[KAOS]

read the stickys. a 3S-GE is not an engine to use if you want to make more power. now the 3S-GTE is another story. but again read the stickys!

Really? I'd take the stock 190HP over the lack of power the 5S puts down any day.

[dyno305]

read the stickys. a 3S-GE is not an engine to use if you want to make more power. now the 3S-GTE is another story. but again read the stickys!

Really? I'd take the stock 190HP over the lack of power the 5S puts down any day.

thats what i thought . dont get me wrong the 5s-fe is a great engine but its not quick i dont want to much power like the 3sgte and im not a fan of AWD i like more FWD for my celica.....okay how do i get to the stickys? since im new im totally lost lmfao!!

[dyno305]

does anyone know where i can buy these engines automatic transmission other then ebay?? with the ecu and wireing harness not cut off lol for some the m/t have there harness but the only two automatics ive found have both there harness cut off!! bad luck i guess..

[richee3]

At the top of each forum, you'll see a thread labeled "Sticky: Engines, Transmissions, Etc." or "Sticky: Forced Induction" or things like that. The top thread in each section.

[czwalga]

read the stickys. a 3S-GE is not an engine to use if you want to make more power. now the 3S-GTE is another story. but again read the stickys!

What are you talking about? It's about a 50 hp upgrade, and you can get the engine for between $500-700.

[KAOS]

read the stickys. a 3S-GE is not an engine to use if you want to make more power. now the 3S-GTE is another story. but again read the stickys!

What are you talking about? It's about a 50 hp upgrade, and you can get the engine for between $500-700.

Yeah this.

[m2736185]

500-700 for a 3sge...where???

[richee3]

You can have Dr. Tweak or mr220v make you a new harness, or you can patiently wait until you find one with an uncut harness. Couple of quick questions though. Why do you want to keep it auto? The manual conversion really isn't difficult, especially not with the motor out of the way. And are the harnesses cut before or after the fuse box? Several of the ads I saw when BEAMS shopping said the wiring harness was cut at the fuse box but when I looked at the pictures, they had cut the body wiring after the fuse box. It was very misleading to read when in truth, everything you need is still there.

[dyno305]

You can have Dr. Tweak or mr220v make you a new harness, or you can patiently wait until you find one with an uncut harness. Couple of quick questions though. Why do you want to keep it auto? The manual conversion really isn't difficult, especially not with the motor out of the way. And are the harnesses cut before or after the fuse box? Several of the ads I saw when BEAMS shopping said the wiring harness was cut at the fuse box but when I looked at the pictures, they had cut the body wiring after the fuse box. It was very misleading to read when in truth, everything you need is still there.

idk i never really done a auto to a Manuel swap...like do u have to take the dash out?? cuz im pretty sure all the cables are different... i mean the reason i want auto is just so it can be easier for me.....i mean what would be easier?

[dyno305]

wat about the pedals do i have to make that hole for the clutch pedal??

[richee3]

Start here: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=73956

All the information you need is in there. To narrow it down, click: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14569

If you can do the 5S to 3S swap, then converting to a manual while you're at it will be a walk in the park and well worth it.

Yes, you will need to drill a hole for the clutch pedal and master cylinder, but that's easy when there isn't a motor in the way. You'll need new shift cables but again, easy. It's a small investment that will give you huge returns when it's all finished. I've had both and trust me, the auto just can't compare

This post has been edited by richee3: Feb 11, 2012 - 3:50 PM

[dyno305]

Start here: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=73956

All the information you need is in there. To narrow it down, click: http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14569

If you can do the 5S to 3S swap, then converting to a manual while you're at it will be a walk in the park and well worth it.

Yes, you will need to drill a hole for the clutch pedal and master cylinder, but that's easy when there isn't a motor in the way. You'll need new shift cables but again, easy. It's a small investment that will give you huge returns when it's all finished. I've had both and trust me, the auto just can't compare

thanks for all your help richee....hey i saw your profile and notice that u have projector lights ive been wanting to get them but Ive read post saying that ill bother my oncoming traffic and pretty much blind them is it that bad or are they blowing up the situation?

you had a auto 3s-ge before??

This post has been edited by dyno305: Feb 11, 2012 - 3:59 PM

[richee3]

Projectors with HID's will definitely blind oncoming traffic, but they're not so bad with standard halogen bulbs. Several members have been using projectors and halogen bulbs for years and never been flashed once. I have HID's and still haven't done the cutoff mod. While they're not exactly "blinding," they are incredibly bright and annoying to both oncoming traffic and cars in front of me. I need to fix the cutoff but I haven't built up the courage yet.

I've never had an auto 3S-GE but I've had both an auto and manual Celica. The auto just can't compare to the manual at all. On paper, the manual is slightly quicker, but paper doesn't tell the whole story. Having a manual changes the whole driving experience and makes the car more fun to drive, whether you're flooring it or just cruising around town.

[czwalga]

500-700 for a 3sge...where???

I found one from one of those JDM engine places for around 550 or something. Shipped it was around 700.


Also everything richee said is true.

[dyno305]

Projectors with HID's will definitely blind oncoming traffic, but they're not so bad with standard halogen bulbs. Several members have been using projectors and halogen bulbs for years and never been flashed once. I have HID's and still haven't done the cutoff mod. While they're not exactly "blinding," they are incredibly bright and annoying to both oncoming traffic and cars in front of me. I need to fix the cutoff but I haven't built up the courage yet.

I've never had an auto 3S-GE but I've had both an auto and manual Celica. The auto just can't compare to the manual at all. On paper, the manual is slightly quicker, but paper doesn't tell the whole story. Having a manual changes the whole driving experience and makes the car more fun to drive, whether you're flooring it or just cruising around town.

u know wat? imma get the projectors screw the oncoming traffic lol i live in miami road rage is a everyday thing here. people here drive angry so there going to get blinded it lmfao....its different if u live in a small town but in a major city like miami u can get away with it lol

500-700 for a 3sge...where???

I found one from one of those JDM engine places for around 550 or something. Shipped it was around 700.


Also everything richee said is true.

what website?

[m2736185]

Its proly from a gt-s. The beams usually goes for atleast 1500

[bnr32celica]

Its proly from a gt-s. The beams usually goes for atleast 1500

The 3S without BEAMS is from a JDM SS-II. The BEAMS is from the SS-III. I'm going 3S without BEAMS for a simple reason: I can run it off my 5S ECU and still be emissions-legal. Sure, its not 100% ideal, but it is better than the 5S.

[Rusty]

not 100% true
a Gen 3 3S-GE is from 1994 - 1997, a BEAMS is +1997. So both SS-II and SS-III had the same 3S-GE given which year

Also what you could do, is buy a LHD 3S-GE engine loom/harness from UK/Europe people (post a WTB here or search the uk ebay), saving you the trouble of converting it to LHD. Try to get a prefacelift/1996 as the UK/Europe had EGR on their 3S-GE afterwards.

I doubt you'd be able to run a 3S nicely with a 5S ecu...

[bnr32celica]

not 100% true
a Gen 3 3S-GE is from 1994 - 1997, a BEAMS is +1997. So both SS-II and SS-III had the same 3S-GE given which year

Also what you could do, is buy a LHD 3S-GE engine loom/harness from UK/Europe people (post a WTB here or search the uk ebay), saving you the trouble of converting it to LHD. Try to get a prefacelift/1996 as the UK/Europe had EGR on their 3S-GE afterwards.

I doubt you'd be able to run a 3S nicely with a 5S ecu...

Don't have a choice. I live in a state where all cars from 1996 or newer get scanned. 3S ECU=not scannable.

However, I have on my side some experience making cars run off different ECUs than expected. I just need the 5S ECU so that our emissions scanners see OBD2...

I thought the SS-III swas only available from 98-99...then again, I am still semi-noobish...

[richee3]

The 3S is smaller displacement and higher compression. The 5S ECU MIGHT run the 3S but it'll be throwing to many codes that there's no way your state will pass the car. Since your state scans the OBDII port, then you're better off to take the advice posted earlier and do a little work to your 5S or, if it's legal, do a V6 swap.

[richee3]

Celica projector cutoff:



As you can see, the light flicks up into oncoming traffic. The focal point of the light is in that cutoff, which is why the cutoff should be fixed. Granted, the bulk of the light isn't in the top corner so it's not shining directly in everyone's eyes do you can get away with halogen bulbs but HID's are significantly brighter and should always have the cutoff fixed. They're well worth it though.

[Smaay]

what makes you think you have to go AWD with a 3S-GTE swap? its just the engine. not the transmission.

im just giving my opinion about a 3S-GE swap. i dont think they are worth the money. id spend a little bit more for a 1MZ or GTE swap

[KAOS]

what makes you think you have to go AWD with a 3S-GTE swap? its just the engine. not the transmission.

I'm just giving my opinion about a 3S-GE swap. i dont think they are worth the money. id spend a little bit more for a 1MZ or GTE swap

Smaay's got a point about the AWD portion of your worries - most users that do swap out for the 3SGTE are still FF (front wheel drive).



If someone wanted to stay NA - the 3SGE swap is probably the best bang for the buck (even over the beams which will only gain you MAYBE 20HP for $1000 more for a clip).

Try rebuilding the 5S for around $500 to 190HP, I don't think its possible... or even doing the V6 swap without losing your mind trying to convert the engine harness, etc.

Plus - 3SGE would be a great base for a unique turbo swap in the future (most likely at a fraction of the cost of a full blown 3SGTE) with possibly decent comparisons to the 3SGTE.

I'm not bashing your opinions at all, I just happen to like this discussion.

[czwalga]

^ I agree with everything you said minus the 3sge being good for a turbo. Compression ratio is too high.


The 3sge swap is a great upgrade for a dieing 5sfe. More power, for about the same price.

[KAOS]

^ I agree with everything you said minus the 3sge being good for a turbo. Compression ratio is too high.


The 3sge swap is a great upgrade for a dieing 5sfe. More power, for about the same price.

Well - I wouldn't be running full boost if I were to eventually move to turbo. But I've seen plenty of successful High Compression/Low Boost set ups that work.

[czwalga]

^ I agree with everything you said minus the 3sge being good for a turbo. Compression ratio is too high.


The 3sge swap is a great upgrade for a dieing 5sfe. More power, for about the same price.

Well - I wouldn't be running full boost if I were to eventually move to turbo. But I've seen plenty of successful High Compression/Low Boost set ups that work.

How many were on stock internal components? You'd be playing with fire on the stock stuff. I have a pretty high c/r on the rx7, and run a decent amount of boost, but the engine itself cost about the same as my entire rally car.

[KAOS]

^ I agree with everything you said minus the 3sge being good for a turbo. Compression ratio is too high.


The 3sge swap is a great upgrade for a dieing 5sfe. More power, for about the same price.

Well - I wouldn't be running full boost if I were to eventually move to turbo. But I've seen plenty of successful High Compression/Low Boost set ups that work.

How many were on stock internal components? You'd be playing with fire on the stock stuff. I have a pretty high c/r on the rx7, and run a decent amount of boost, but the engine itself cost about the same as my entire rally car.

I have a whack of articles on my home PC about this, but this is one off my work PC: http://www.mr2.com/forums/non-turbo-engine...html#post630033

Granted its an MR2 - and he has a lot invested, but running stock internals. I haven't read through it lately but I think he was running crazy PSI on that set up too...

[KAOS]

Scratch that - I re-read it and it sounds like he's recently upgraded his internals... BUT; he did run stock internals for his first dyno of 317WHP @ 14PSI.

[czwalga]

^ I agree with everything you said minus the 3sge being good for a turbo. Compression ratio is too high.


The 3sge swap is a great upgrade for a dieing 5sfe. More power, for about the same price.

Well - I wouldn't be running full boost if I were to eventually move to turbo. But I've seen plenty of successful High Compression/Low Boost set ups that work.

How many were on stock internal components? You'd be playing with fire on the stock stuff. I have a pretty high c/r on the rx7, and run a decent amount of boost, but the engine itself cost about the same as my entire rally car.

I have a whack of articles on my home PC about this, but this is one off my work PC: http://www.mr2.com/forums/non-turbo-engine...html#post630033

Granted its an MR2 - and he has a lot invested, but running stock internals. I haven't read through it lately but I think he was running crazy PSI on that set up too...

In less than a year the 3sge internals were out and he was using a 3sgte bottom end. There's a reason for that. It appears 16 psi it croaked, and says 14 psi would be a safe limit, but he doesnt know that for sure.

Like I said playing with fire. With that C/R I probably wouldnt run more than 6 psi... if I was afraid of blowing it up. I'm sure you can find people running high boost on stock internal engines, but that doesnt make it the norm or reliable.

[KAOS]

In less than a year the 3sge internals were out and he was using a 3sgte bottom end. There's a reason for that. It appears 16 psi it croaked, and says 14 psi would be a safe limit, but he doesnt know that for sure.

Like I said playing with fire. With that C/R I probably wouldnt run more than 6 psi... if I was afraid of blowing it up. I'm sure you can find people running high boost on stock internal engines, but that doesnt make it the norm or reliable.

Its probably a safe bet to lower the C/R - but he was also looking to make more HP.

I wasn't planning on running anything over 8 PSI on stock internals; I agree with you completely about it not being reliable, and I never said it was.

I just wanna tinker with a lil' bit o' boost.

I just know that I will have some options in the future once my 3SGE swap is complete. I'm keeping it NA for a while.

This post has been edited by KAOS: Feb 13, 2012 - 5:25 PM

[m2736185]

This one has the auto ecu http://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-3SGE-BEAMS-VVT...=item4160ad92e6

[dyno305]

This one has the auto ecu http://www.ebay.com/itm/JDM-3SGE-BEAMS-VVT...=item4160ad92e6

i was looking at the one but the guy wants to much for it!!! almost three grand wth is he smoking!!

not 100% true
a Gen 3 3S-GE is from 1994 - 1997, a BEAMS is +1997. So both SS-II and SS-III had the same 3S-GE given which year

Also what you could do, is buy a LHD 3S-GE engine loom/harness from UK/Europe people (post a WTB here or search the uk ebay), saving you the trouble of converting it to LHD. Try to get a prefacelift/1996 as the UK/Europe had EGR on their 3S-GE afterwards.

I doubt you'd be able to run a 3S nicely with a 5S ecu...

so which gen 3s-ge would be better??

[njccmd2002]

i paid 2 grand for mine, and to swap invested another grand... so its not cheap

[m2736185]

IMO 3 grand might as well save up a little more for 3sgte unless you just prefer the NA route.

njccmd2002: How difficult was the rewiring for the beams swap?

[richee3]

Wiring for the BEAMS is easy.

[ricochet1490]

Or you can not deal with the wiring and do it the hard way lol - remove and replace!

[ricochet1490]

On a side note, I tend to agree with Czwalga and Kaos, a 3sge motor swap (non beams) is a worthy investment. When we're talking 40-50 hp increase for 500-700$, that really isn't bad. Think about it, we're discussing a group buy on some Colt Cams for the 5s. Change the cams = $400 , SAFC=$100, dyno time to tune it right = $50-100 So by the time you've done that, you've got $600 or so in a motor and only gained 35hp? Granted 35 hp off of one modification is very substantial, and there are obvious work advantages in not having to remove the engine etc etc..... but if you can do your own work, for around the same cost you can have ~10-20 more hp and it's bone stock....

Dyno305- I'm not going to say "hey, go read the stickies" - but I will say go to the my project section of this forum and just start reading. Read through Richee3's thread, read through czwalga's thread, read through greendemon's thread, read through S8S8's thread, read through my thread, read through anything and everything presure2 has written, read through everything that Batman722 has written and you'll learn more than you ever thought possible.

It took me hours and days to go through post by post.... and when you do you'll find out things that will answer your questions

i.e. 3sgte can mount to a 5sfe stock transmission, the S-54... infact all S-series engines can mount to the S-54. if you want a beefier tranny, get an e-153 (really only used with the 3sgte).
You'll find you don't have to remove the dash to do a motor swap, just the glove box and some small panels near the floor....

FINALLY- I am going to tell you that I'm getting the vibe that you are relatively new to modding cars. I came to this conclusion because you want to keep the automatic etc. So i'm going to assume that if you want to do a motor swap, you'll end up paying someone else to do it. And if you are going to pay someone else to do it, it's going to be cheaper to swap out cams and get a tune, than to swap out a whole motor because it all comes down to labor labor labor.

So I would recommend to you, unless you have all kinds of experience here, to start with the cams, we have a 400$ group buy of the best cams for the 5s in the works, and you should see what that does for you. IMO(in my opinion) that's the best thing you could do for yourself..... right now that is.
cam thread > http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=82269

This post has been edited by ricochet1490: Feb 15, 2012 - 1:32 PM

[Rusty]

so which gen 3s-ge would be better??

They both have good points and bad points. What are you looking for in an engine swap, besides the extra power? Your price range? After the swap would you look at modifying the engine at all?

However I would stay away from an auto Gen 3 3S-GE and the EGR Gen 3 3S-GE (96+ UK spec) as they have a lower power rating than the manual version Gen 3 3S-GE - 178bhp.

[dyno305]

On a side note, I tend to agree with Czwalga and Kaos, a 3sge motor swap (non beams) is a worthy investment. When we're talking 40-50 hp increase for 500-700$, that really isn't bad. Think about it, we're discussing a group buy on some Colt Cams for the 5s. Change the cams = $400 , SAFC=$100, dyno time to tune it right = $50-100 So by the time you've done that, you've got $600 or so in a motor and only gained 35hp? Granted 35 hp off of one modification is very substantial, and there are obvious work advantages in not having to remove the engine etc etc..... but if you can do your own work, for around the same cost you can have ~10-20 more hp and it's bone stock....

Dyno305- I'm not going to say "hey, go read the stickies" - but I will say go to the my project section of this forum and just start reading. Read through Richee3's thread, read through czwalga's thread, read through greendemon's thread, read through S8S8's thread, read through my thread, read through anything and everything presure2 has written, read through everything that Batman722 has written and you'll learn more than you ever thought possible.

It took me hours and days to go through post by post.... and when you do you'll find out things that will answer your questions

i.e. 3sgte can mount to a 5sfe stock transmission, the S-54... infact all S-series engines can mount to the S-54. if you want a beefier tranny, get an e-153 (really only used with the 3sgte).
You'll find you don't have to remove the dash to do a motor swap, just the glove box and some small panels near the floor....

FINALLY- I am going to tell you that I'm getting the vibe that you are relatively new to modding cars. I came to this conclusion because you want to keep the automatic etc. So i'm going to assume that if you want to do a motor swap, you'll end up paying someone else to do it. And if you are going to pay someone else to do it, it's going to be cheaper to swap out cams and get a tune, than to swap out a whole motor because it all comes down to labor labor labor.

So I would recommend to you, unless you have all kinds of experience here, to start with the cams, we have a 400$ group buy of the best cams for the 5s in the works, and you should see what that does for you. IMO(in my opinion) that's the best thing you could do for yourself..... right now that is.
cam thread > http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=82269

well im a bit new to the car modding think yes but i know how to maintain a car and fix it i work as a mechanic and me and my dad have are own shop so im not going to be paying anyone....idk i just want a auto cuz traffic jams suck here and i have to almost alawys take them and i just thought it would save me more time but i guess i was wrong lol