Randomly stopping (engine dies), gettin' mad Options

[kavo]

Well its been a long time since ive been on these forums (since I was a young dumb teenager looking to do sick mods )

anyway so my 6gc has been cutting out randomly with no warning. I will be driving along then the engine light comes on simultaneously as the engine cuts (all the other lights come on too) and I have to very quickly clutch to maintain as much momentum as possible and pull off the road. This has happened numerous places, on the way to gym, peak hour traffic and not even at the end of my driveway. THen I cannot start the car.

Sometimes I have just left it and came back several hours later and it starts fine, other times wriggle wires and itll run for 30 sec then wont for a few hours. Very frustrating as it has been a couple of weeks since it happened last, and when the car is running me and my dad (motor mech and diesel fitter by trade) cannot diagnose the problem.


Today when i was wriggling wires I pulled this plug, which has now disintegrated except for the actual connection. I will try and start it later but is this plug needed for the car to actually run?



anybody had similar problems with their car stopping like this? or knows what it is?

[richee3]

That plug is the water temp sensor. It's important for your car to run well but it can run without it. Sounds to me like a ground issue, almost like a bad connection on the battery terminal. I'd start there- make sure the terminals are clean and ALL connections are tight. I'm sure your dad has already checked that, but it's worth double and triple checking. After that, what does it do when you try to start it? Could be a failing battery or alternator.

Can you push start it when it dies on the highway? Put it in a lower gear and let out of the clutch to start the motor, I mean.

This post has been edited by richee3: Apr 25, 2012 - 7:42 PM

[kurt95gt]

My old 91 gt did that it ended up being the igniter module on the fire wall
but mine would die an then i could restart in a couple minutes
Untill the last time it just never started again

[kavo]

When I try and start it the starter just keeps ticking and nothing happens. But when it does start and run (even if only for a minute or two) it runs fine.

Chances are it'll start when I go back down to the car in a few minutes.

Ive never really ben in a spot, or with anyone, to push start it.

And it's never stopped when I've been at my parents place

My old 91 gt did that it ended up being the igniter module on the fire wall
but mine would die an then i could restart in a couple minutes
Untill the last time it just never started again

Did the igniter pack it in? I was talking to dad on the phone this morning and he thinks that could be the problem

This post has been edited by kavo: Apr 25, 2012 - 9:33 PM

[kurt95gt]

When my igniter went she wouldnt start at all
Just set an crank that wad it

[kavo]

When my igniter went she wouldnt start at all
Just set an crank that wad it

Thats what mine seems to be doing. The main time it haappens is in the morning, often as the day has heated up it will start

[kavo]

Ok just rode down to where it stopped here is a list of events that just occured in the last 5 minutes:
1. get to car, put key in and starts.
2. stops after about 45sec.
3. unplug igniter, blow out both male and female plugs, plug back in
4. car starts
5. car stops after 30sec.
6. repeat 3.
7. wriggle wires going in to igniter plug.
8. car starts
9. still running after about 2min.
10. pack bike in boot, still running.
11. drive home ~1km.

[hatchy_gt-s]

When this happens again pull your plugs and try to start it, if they are sparking it is not the mod.
when you say the starter ticks are you talking about a fast repetitive click, or the motor trying to turn over?
Also check to make sure you still have fuel.

From what I have read it sounds more like a voltage regulator which is found in/on the alt.

This post has been edited by hatchy_gt-s: Apr 25, 2012 - 10:15 PM

[kavo]

When this happens again pull your plugs and try to start it, if they are sparking it is not the mod.
when you say the starter ticks are you talking about a fast repetitive click, or the motor trying to turn over?
Also check to make sure you still have fuel.

From what I have read it sounds more like a voltage regulator which is found in/on the alt.

The fuel tank is full.
The ticking is just the starter trying to turn the motor over

I will do the spark plugs if/when (it will) happens again.


What makes you think its the voltage regulator? I only touched the igniter just now and it started?

[kavo]

had a quick look on the net at igniters and how much it may cost me.

the numbers on mine:

89621-26010
131300-1744 CHD1


Ebay ads stating this number will fit:

89321-26010
131300-1743 174


Is this true?

[hatchy_gt-s]

DO NOT JUST THROW PARTS AT IT< THIS WILL NOT FIX YOUR CAR AND IS JUST WASTING MONEY!

If you check the things I told you, you will be able to find out 100% sure what the problem is.
I am taking the time to give you professional advice plz take it.

This post has been edited by hatchy_gt-s: Apr 25, 2012 - 10:35 PM

[Special_Edy]

You need to determine if its fuel or spark. This could be the fuel pump.
I would also check the coil and crankshaft position sensor immediately after it fails(like before it has a chance to cool and start working again).

Carry a phillips and standard screwdriver, a can of starter fluid and a multimeter. When it dies pull off the intake hose and spray starter fluid into the intake/throttlebody. If it starts then you arent getting fuel, if it still doesnt fire then you arent getting spark. If its no spark,unplug the four wire plug on the top of the distributor and check the prongs where the red and black wires would plug into the distributor(your checking the inside of the dist, not the wire). Measure for resistance, it should be 185 to 275 ohms. Next remove the dist cap with the phillips screwdriver, and check for resistance between the positive and negative terminals on the coil(they are on the side close to the rotor, both wires are secured with a nut). Resistance should be 0.4 to 0.5 ohms on the 5sfe, 0.3 to 0.7 ohms on the 7afe. Now check resistance between the positive terminal on the side of the coil and the high voltage terminal on top of the coil(where the electricity goes into the dist cap). Resistance should be 10.0K to 14K ohms on the 5SFE and 9.0K to 18.1K ohms on the 7AFE.

[kavo]

DO NOT JUST THROW PARTS AT IT< THIS WILL NOT FIX YOUR CAR AND IS JUST WASTING MONEY!

If you check the things I told you, you will be able to find out 100% sure what the problem is.
I am taking the time to give you professional advice plz take it.

I'm not throwing parts at it. Just investigating potential cost.
How can I use your advice if it seems to be working? I will check the spark etc, but if all is working fine that will just tell me that everything is working, no? As in I can only take your advice to check spark if it isn't working

I would also check the coil and crankshaft position sensor immediately after it fails(like before it has a chance to cool and start working again).

sometimes it hasn't even got hot before it has stopped (ie only running for 30sec) does this matter?

This post has been edited by kavo: Apr 25, 2012 - 10:55 PM

[Special_Edy]

It does, Ive made it down the driveway and had them fail before(on my truck but the principle still applies)

Also, I believe the large 3 digit number on the ignitor is the most important for compatibility. For instance, mine is a 174

[hatchy_gt-s]

DO NOT JUST THROW PARTS AT IT< THIS WILL NOT FIX YOUR CAR AND IS JUST WASTING MONEY!

If you check the things I told you, you will be able to find out 100% sure what the problem is.
I am taking the time to give you professional advice plz take it.

I'm not throwing parts at it. Just investigating potential cost.
How can I use your advice if it seems to be working? I will check the spark etc, but if all is working fine that will just tell me that everything is working, no? As in I can only take your advice to check spark if it isn't working

I would also check the coil and crankshaft position sensor immediately after it fails(like before it has a chance to cool and start working again).

sometimes it hasn't even got hot before it has stopped (ie only running for 30sec) does this matter?

I will put money on it not being the Ign mod because its not a part that will have an intermediate fault, the only thing that causes intermediate problems are the wires 9/10.
I also mentioned the voltage regulator, as that is a part that you can have intermediate issues. This you can check if the issue is happening or not
I asked about the clicking as well, if you answer these questions I can narrow down the issue.

I would suggest a fuel pressure gauge, to check fuel because your pump can still pump fuel but if it doesn't have enough pressure the injectors will not open.

[kavo]

The ticking is just the starter trying to turn the motor over

DO NOT JUST THROW PARTS AT IT< THIS WILL NOT FIX YOUR CAR AND IS JUST WASTING MONEY!

If you check the things I told you, you will be able to find out 100% sure what the problem is.
I am taking the time to give you professional advice plz take it.

I'm not throwing parts at it. Just investigating potential cost.
How can I use your advice if it seems to be working? I will check the spark etc, but if all is working fine that will just tell me that everything is working, no? As in I can only take your advice to check spark if it isn't working

I would also check the coil and crankshaft position sensor immediately after it fails(like before it has a chance to cool and start working again).

sometimes it hasn't even got hot before it has stopped (ie only running for 30sec) does this matter?

I will put money on it not being the Ign mod because its not a part that will have an intermediate fault, the only thing that causes intermediate problems are the wires 9/10.
I also mentioned the voltage regulator, as that is a part that you can have intermediate issues. This you can check if the issue is happening or not
I asked about the clicking as well, if you answer these questions I can narrow down the issue.

I would suggest a fuel pressure gauge, to check fuel because your pump can still pump fuel but if it doesn't have enough pressure the injectors will not open.

[Special_Edy]

I wonder if autozone can test the ignitor, they check most ignition modules. As for the voltage regulator, it shouldnt affect him at an idle. The engine needs to rev up to get above 15-16 volts. You can chack for voltage across the battery terminals and watch if it goes past 15 volts DC with the engine revved. Or just take it to the parts store and have them test the voltage regulator and the ripple.

I would be leaning towards a coil or the fuel pump

[808celica]

Open your Distributor and test your ignition coil leads. If you have a Chilton or Haynes book it shows you what to prong with a Multimeter to see if its bad.

Things to check in order.

Normal ignition tune up parts
Distributor ignition coil
Ignitior Module
ECU

You'll notice prices on these will climb up when you move on to the next.


When the car doesn't want to start have a can of starter fluid in the car. Manually open the throttle body and spray 3 times. If car doesn't start when you sprayed the starter fluid it's and Ignition issue. If it starts then dies it's a Fuel delivery issue.

Also if you crank the car and it doesn't start, take a look at your Check Engine Light. Crank the car for 15-20secs, if the CEL goes off your Crank position Sensor is working. If it doesn't you might have a bad Crank Sensor.

This post has been edited by 808celica: Apr 26, 2012 - 3:07 AM

[Special_Edy]

Open your Distributor and test your ignition coil leads. If you have a Chilton or Haynes book it shows you what to prong with a Multimeter to see if its bad.

Things to check in order.

Normal ignition tune up parts
Distributor ignition coil
Ignitior Module
ECU

You'll notice prices on these will climb up when you move on to the next.


When the car doesn't want to start have a can of starter fluid in the car. Manually open the throttle body and spray 3 times. If car doesn't start when you sprayed the starter fluid it's and Ignition issue. If it starts then dies it's a Fuel delivery issue.

Also if you crank the car and it doesn't start, take a look at your Check Engine Light. Crank the car for 15-20secs, if the CEL goes off your Crank position Sensor is working. If it doesn't you might have a bad Crank Sensor.

Lol sometimes theres an echo around here

[kurt95gt]

If it ends up being the dizzy or thr ignitor mod lmk i got an extra of each ill sell you they both worked fine till the motor put the #1rod through the block lol

[Lone_Wolf]

What year is your car ?? How many miles ?? When did this problem start ?? What was the last mod/maintenance you did ?? Seriously if you don't even know how to post your car info you expect help ?? Well since I'm not a master mechanic (like the rest of these guys who posted) I would found out what the CEL is before I start diagnosing parts.

CEL=Check Engine Light

**I'm just joking about the master mechanic part so don't start throwing a tantrum lol**

[hatchy_gt-s]

^ You need to chill BUT you are also correct a year & model would be helpful.

I wonder if autozone can test the ignitor, they check most ignition modules. As for the voltage regulator, it shouldnt affect him at an idle. The engine needs to rev up to get above 15-16 volts. You can chack for voltage across the battery terminals and watch if it goes past 15 volts DC with the engine revved. Or just take it to the parts store and have them test the voltage regulator and the ripple.

I would be leaning towards a coil or the fuel pump

Actually yes the voltage regulator will affect it, because if the volt reg is going bad it will stop flow from the alt. to the battery. I have seen this on many of cars as I work on them for a living, BUT that was me diading the ticking as I thought he was talking about the tick you get from a "dead" battery. Then again i've never heard an engine tick when its cranking except for bent valves or worn bearing.
Once again its not going to be the module itself that would cause an intermediate issue, but a wire causing a short to ground.
ALSO you have yet to check the fuel system.

An engine needs 3 things fuel, air, and compression to run.

1: Spark- First you want 2 start by checking that you have spark to the wires, an easy way is a screwdriver(sparkplug) at the end of the plug. If you dont have spark there you move to the coil plug, disconnect it and leave it just off the prong to allow the spark to jump. If no spark is there. Then you check the module, specs can be found in a chilton/haynes manual. If you dont have acces to one of these I would be more then happy to supply you with the info you need strait from toyota. P.S. If you have spark from coil but not 2 wires it's the cap/rotor

2: Fuel- Turn the key into the on possession, does the fuel pump turn on(it's a faint winding noise), If it does not go to the fuse box check to see if the fuse is blown, if not take your multi meter and check for 12v. If you have 12v move on to the fuel pump relay and check it for voltage. If 12v is there then you move on to the pump, does the pump have 12v. If the pump is in order then move on to you fuel rail. Crank the motor and use a fuel pressure gauge to check for fuel pressure(can be found in chilton/haynes). If it is LOW this can cause an inop of you injectors ability to pump fuel, if fuel pressure is correct move on to the injectors. Take a test light(noid light) and plug it into the injector and check for pulse width modulation by cranking the motor, if the light flashes repetitively then you Injectors are working.

3: Compression- Use a compression gauge to check for adequate psi.

If you have a bad or shorting sensor this will only affect spark, the fuel system is its own system and will only be affected by it own parts.
BTW I hade the same issue and fried 3 modules until I found out that my wiring loom was touching my egr tube causing the mod to short out. Thats the difference of thinking it and KNOWING IT

This post has been edited by hatchy_gt-s: Apr 26, 2012 - 1:08 PM

[Special_Edy]

He is having intermitten(spelling?) no combustion conditions, but the engine is running smooth most of the time. The spark plug wires, cap and rotor can almost be ruled out. They would cause a misfire condition, not a nofire condition.Also the compression can be totally ruled out. There is absolutely no way he is getting intermitten compression unless I'm a total idiot about engines.

The fuse to the fuel pump doesnt need to be checked, unless it is somehow growing back through some form of magic every time it blows itself(this is an intermitten problem)

The module and coil WILL cause intermitten failures, one is a giant Heatsink the other is usually oil filled. This is because they both get extremely hot and will often stop working id there is a fault until they cool down.

The fuel system is not its own independent system on toyotas, the blue and yellow wire from the distributor are actually what control the injectors. A failed ignition system on a toyota can potentially kill the fuel injection system.


If the voltage regulator was damaged, most likely it would give TOO much electricity which would cook the battery(it would vent all the electolyte) and cause the electronics on the car to go ape****(things will turn on by themselves, ie stereo and headlights). But a voltage regulator isnt as common as a failed diode(which introduces alternating current and once again cooks the battery and makes the electronics go ape****) and most commonly just failed windings on the alternator(in which case its as active as a brick). Anyway you look at it the 9 times out of ten the battery is bad or both not the alternator by itself.

[808celica]

Open your Distributor and test your ignition coil leads. If you have a Chilton or Haynes book it shows you what to prong with a Multimeter to see if its bad.

Things to check in order.

Normal ignition tune up parts
Distributor ignition coil
Ignitior Module
ECU

You'll notice prices on these will climb up when you move on to the next.


When the car doesn't want to start have a can of starter fluid in the car. Manually open the throttle body and spray 3 times. If car doesn't start when you sprayed the starter fluid it's and Ignition issue. If it starts then dies it's a Fuel delivery issue.

Also if you crank the car and it doesn't start, take a look at your Check Engine Light. Crank the car for 15-20secs, if the CEL goes off your Crank position Sensor is working. If it doesn't you might have a bad Crank Sensor.

Lol sometimes theres an echo around here

Yeah there seems to be an echo, an echo that is long winded in description

He is having intermitten(spelling?) no combustion conditions, but the engine is running smooth most of the time. The spark plug wires, cap and rotor can almost be ruled out. They would cause a misfire condition, not a nofire condition.Also the compression can be totally ruled out. There is absolutely no way he is getting intermitten compression unless I'm a total idiot about engines.

The fuse to the fuel pump doesnt need to be checked, unless it is somehow growing back through some form of magic every time it blows itself(this is an intermitten problem)

The module and coil WILL cause intermitten failures, one is a giant Heatsink the other is usually oil filled. This is because they both get extremely hot and will often stop working id there is a fault until they cool down.

The fuel system is not its own independent system on toyotas, the blue and yellow wire from the distributor are actually what control the injectors. A failed ignition system on a toyota can potentially kill the fuel injection system.


If the voltage regulator was damaged, most likely it would give TOO much electricity which would cook the battery(it would vent all the electolyte) and cause the electronics on the car to go ape****(things will turn on by themselves, ie stereo and headlights). But a voltage regulator isnt as common as a failed diode(which introduces alternating current and once again cooks the battery and makes the electronics go ape****) and most commonly just failed windings on the alternator(in which case its as active as a brick). Anyway you look at it the 9 times out of ten the battery is bad or both not the alternator by itself.

[kavo]

Sorry, sometimes I forget to explain myself fully to others. its a 97 SX 5sFE engine (so similar to your GT?) with 260,000 km. I've owned it for 4 years and it has always been maintained every 5000km or less. I bought it when it had 240,000km

[hatchy_gt-s]

He is having intermitten(spelling?) no combustion conditions, but the engine is running smooth most of the time. The spark plug wires, cap and rotor can almost be ruled out. They would cause a misfire condition, not a nofire condition.Also the compression can be totally ruled out. There is absolutely no way he is getting intermitten compression unless I'm a total idiot about engines.

The fuse to the fuel pump doesnt need to be checked, unless it is somehow growing back through some form of magic every time it blows itself(this is an intermitten problem)

The module and coil WILL cause intermitten failures, one is a giant Heatsink the other is usually oil filled. This is because they both get extremely hot and will often stop working id there is a fault until they cool down.

The fuel system is not its own independent system on toyotas, the blue and yellow wire from the distributor are actually what control the injectors. A failed ignition system on a toyota can potentially kill the fuel injection system.


If the voltage regulator was damaged, most likely it would give TOO much electricity which would cook the battery(it would vent all the electolyte) and cause the electronics on the car to go ape****(things will turn on by themselves, ie stereo and headlights). But a voltage regulator isnt as common as a failed diode(which introduces alternating current and once again cooks the battery and makes the electronics go ape****) and most commonly just failed windings on the alternator(in which case its as active as a brick). Anyway you look at it the 9 times out of ten the battery is bad or both not the alternator by itself.

Sorry Intermittent(You spells wrong 2) mine was auto txt.

I was just stating the steps on how to check a crank no start. I was giving him the tools to be able to diagnose this himself so that he could learn and not just do.

No, a bad voltage regulator would not cause an over voltage as ANY manufacture would have safety features to do the exact opposite.

The blue and yellow wire do NOT control the injectors but are an additional signal that tells the computer what cylinder its on as injectors fire before spark not during or after, same can be said about the crank/cam position they only inform the computer on where the engine is.

If it was an over heating issue he would see it happen after X amount of time but he isnt its happening at totally random times from long drives to not even out of the drive way, which reduces it to a short to ground issue.

God I feel like I'm in a ASE Tech A/Tech B senario