 7AFE, ENGINE ISSUES |
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 Jan 20, 2004 - 8:43 AM
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 Enthusiast  Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%)  |
ok so i think i've gathered from this whole forum that the least favored engine of all our cars is the 7-afe but hey most of us are stuck with it. So i've looked around and checked in most post for what everyone has suggested meaning: turbo, nitrous oxide, engine swaps. But turbos for this engine are not only hard to piece together but cause alot of issues. Now what i'm asking for is before we turbo and nos we need internals right? cams, rods, pistons, heads redone...ect. but these are hard to find from what i've looked. maybe its just me and i'm really crappy at looking for parts. soo to make this short if you know where to find cams for a 7 put up a link. if you know where to find FORGED pistons, post a link or light weight and stronger rods....you know the deal by now THANKS guys and girls for the few of you out there
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Jan 20, 2004 - 9:02 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Oct 28, '02 From Europe, Lithuania Currently Offline Reputation: 8 (100%) |
There are few things that need to be done before you put turbo on your 7A. First - pistons. if you have $$$ get forged Arias or other pistons. I you low on cash, then you can get 4A-GZE pistons (thay fit, with little mods). Second step is rods, they are pricey cuz you have to make them custom... about 700$. About cams, as long as i know, there are NO cams availible for 7A exept custom made... so no info on this... About redoing your head... If you aint aiming for crazy Hp number it is not nessesary. Just macth all the ports, and clean your intake manifold. -------------------- Ex celica owner - just a guy from other side of the pond...
Full custom Projects from restoration to performance builds <<<<<< DCw / JDMart >>>>>>> |
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Jan 22, 2004 - 1:31 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
get latermodel 4a-gze pistons from a JDM redtop 4a-gze... has a slightly lower compression ratio of i believe 8.0:1....
or you can get JE pistons as well.... those are generally good for about up to 30psi (according to some corolla owners on vvti). you could also think about swapping in an entire 4a-gze.... it comes supercharged and has a stronger crank..... you can easily swap over to turbo or if you want, twin charge the motor |
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Jan 22, 2004 - 6:27 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From Anaheim, CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
stock 7afe cams work well for mild turbo applications.
after that you need a cam re grind. -------------------- 1994 Celica GT4 WRC Edition
@gt4.wrc on Instagram |
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Jan 22, 2004 - 6:36 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From Michigan Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
the "problem" as you so call it. with the 7AFE is a weak crankshaft, this is supposedly the first thing to get weak if you have a correct, well built race motor. which they also do not have readily available. basically the 2 toyota 4-cylinder motors that have the most readily available parts made for it are versions of the 3S motor, and the 4A motor.
--------------------  Believer, you'll leave her, in leaving them all No but I don't buy it Like anything you do, as anyone you are Cause I'm... Ten Speed, of God's Blood & Burial |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 1:12 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 26, '02 From Alabama Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
the 300 horse 7age 20v that was posted up recently used a stock 7a crank. I don't know how long it lasted though...
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Jan 23, 2004 - 2:14 AM
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 Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I'm sure the 7A crank can take 300hp n/a...but I dunno about forced induction. That's 2 different worlds in terms of internal stress on engine components... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 1:35 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From Dallas, Tx Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Huh? The stresses are slightly different but not enough to really have to worry about it. How are you so sure that it can take 300hp n/a? |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 2:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
are your tranny's actually holding up? last i heard, the c50/c52 transmissions were only good for up to around 200hp..... i'm guessing a 4a-gze e51 (from japan) transmission could probably hold more....
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Jan 23, 2004 - 4:20 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From San Diego CA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I'll put all your worrys to rest in less then a year. ill probably be the only person thats going to get his 7A motor and do a complete NA application on it. ill post numbers and what i did when im done with it.
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Jan 23, 2004 - 5:47 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
I'm guessing there will be a lot more stress with forced induction than n/a, simply because in order to build around 300hp n/a... you're mostly gonna have to revv more (with appropriate upgrades in the head). That will stress the internals, but higher-revving, IMO, will affect crank balance more than actual forced stress. Forced induction, will actually strain the crank more, although revving less, it will create a lot more stress via boosted intake. Why? Consider torque... A 300hp n/a motor will make much less torque than a 300hp turbo... That's mostly my speculation... call it an educated guess... This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Jan 23, 2004 - 5:47 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 6:27 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
racer25 on corolla-racing.com has built his 7a-fe pretty well for NA purposes.... although he's getting ready for some sort of hybrid (probably a 20V 7a-ge with silvertop head), the numbers he's gotten are decent.... some of the things i know he's done (and he has done more than this as well)... rebuilt motor auto -> 5 speed swap (using an ae92 GTS c52 transmission) tuned ecu, removed rev limiter (i think he said the valves start to float at around 7500 rpm's or so) 4a-fe pistons (for higher compression) thinner head gasket (for higher compression) underdrive pulleys sard adjustable FPR supra (the green one) fuel pump i *think* he's using either 5s-fe or 4a-ge injectors as well I/H/E limited slip diff. and he ran some decent numbers... i want to say it was a low 16 sec or so... maybe high 15, i don't remember..... (same guy also has a te27 that he's shooting for 200RWHP in a 2,000lb car) |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 6:39 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From San Juan, PR Currently Offline Reputation: 4 (100%) |
All that money spent on 7AFE and hybrid applications and a Civic with an H22 swap will still eat it. People gotta balance things out before starting to throw money and time away.
-------------------- Past - 7A-FTE: Will never forget you
Present - 3rd Gen 3S-GTE: Swap in progress QUOTE (SinisterSinner @ Dec 19, 2009 - 10:52 AM)  I dont want to even think of turbos, they blow up way too often... |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 7:05 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
how has he thrown money out? he gets parts from pull-a-part junkyards and does all the work himself...... the only thing that he won't use on the hybrid is the 7a-fe engine specific parts.... he was originally going to turbo it though.... i think that changed when he decided to turbo the te27....
also, a civic with an H22 won't outrun a corolla through corners.... it's way too front heavy and will want to swap ends easily... along with that, the H22a's are fairly expensive and the swap isn't easy per say..... |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 7:15 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From Dallas, Tx Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
You kinda contradict yourself in here but you're almost on the right track. The n/a motor will have to rev more to make the same power, it might not make less torque, but it will not make it at the lower rpm. Reving higher will greatly increase the stresses in the motor as will the slightly greater cylinder pressures created because of the necessary increase in volumetric efficiency (making the engine breathe better). The turbo engine will have much higher cylinder pressures due to the extra air and fuel entering the cylinders but it will not have to rev nearly as high to make the same power. Because of the way the cam and ignition timing works out, the higher cylinder pressures at lower rpm will actually help to decrease the stresses on the rods, although the crank and its bearings will still see higher stresses. To make a really long story really short, for the same power level its much easier on an engine to be turboed than to have to rev higher without the turbo. That being said, the turbo motor will still have higher stresses than the stock motor. Its almost going to be impossible to make an n/a 7a put out 300hp. Its going to have to rev very very high and the only 'stock' part that will be left is the block. Its definitely possible to make a 300hp 7a with a turbo. I think its even possible with a stock block, crank, cams, and head (ported). But thats just my oppinion and will remain so until I come up with the funds to prove it. |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 7:20 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From Michigan Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
pretty much any honda swap is plug and play. its like messing around with legos.
still 16-15s after that many hours working on a motor? seems kinda pointless IMO even if its not a strip car or anything... thats still pretty slow. -------------------- Believer, you'll leave her, in leaving them all No but I don't buy it Like anything you do, as anyone you are Cause I'm... Ten Speed, of God's Blood & Burial |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 8:01 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
kind of... B series motors are like legos yes... but the H22 is different.... requires diff tranny and mounts, diff motor mounts, you have to pound back the firewall, and it barely fits into a civic...... and the h22a isn't a cheap motor.... probably at least 2x the price of a blacktop 20V and also, it is a daily driver.... he does have bigger plans for it, but the car is a hobby, so the "time wasted" really isn't time wasted...... and to let you know, my car runs a 17.33 in the 1/4 mile... yes it's WAY slow... but i can keep up with (if not beat) about 1/2 of the cars that auto-x around here.... how fast a car is in a straight line isn't everything..... and 99% of those cars that auto-x could kill me in a 1/4 mile race |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 11:35 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From San Juan, PR Currently Offline Reputation: 4 (100%) |
Ok mister, you don't have to defend him a lot...don't get to defensive. I didn't post that to argue, it's a real possibility. -------------------- Past - 7A-FTE: Will never forget you
Present - 3rd Gen 3S-GTE: Swap in progress QUOTE (SinisterSinner @ Dec 19, 2009 - 10:52 AM) I dont want to even think of turbos, they blow up way too often... |
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Jan 23, 2004 - 11:51 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From Michigan Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
weve gotten way offtopic. all im trying to say is even though the setup is kool and was cheap, the gains are less than impressive. i feel if it is a car setup for autoxing, that money could have been better spent in the suspension and tires. all that stuff most likely would put him into a SM class, where cars are much more modified.
-------------------- Believer, you'll leave her, in leaving them all No but I don't buy it Like anything you do, as anyone you are Cause I'm... Ten Speed, of God's Blood & Burial |
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Jan 25, 2004 - 5:21 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
i'll just put it as his 7a-fe pulls just like a 4a-ge smallport..... if you can keep it n/a and do that, it's well worth it..... and i'm defending him a bit because he's a friend of mine and he will be helping me out more than i could pay him back for
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Jan 25, 2004 - 8:25 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From San Juan, PR Currently Offline Reputation: 4 (100%) |
Well, I said an opinion, my brother...if you and your little boyfriend didn't like it, that's too bad...and it'll be a reality...if you guys don't do research...REAL research first, you'll waste the money and manhours...and an H22 powered CIVIC will come by and smoke your little booties  Haha this is cool...I feel like a pre-schooler writing this 
-------------------- Past - 7A-FTE: Will never forget you
Present - 3rd Gen 3S-GTE: Swap in progress QUOTE (SinisterSinner @ Dec 19, 2009 - 10:52 AM) I dont want to even think of turbos, they blow up way too often... |
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Jan 25, 2004 - 8:45 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Nov 26, '03 From McKenzie, TN Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Yeah, and u sound like a pre-schooler writing it too. Hehe, j/k. Sorry, but I couldnt resist. Nothin personal oobe.
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Jan 26, 2004 - 12:03 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
ah yes, looks like you've chosen the mature route on that one.... good job buddy also.... if you go back look at what is engine specific and is a waste of time & money (according to your opinion)... the rebuild (big deal, not really a waste..... you can easily gain lost compression) 4a-fe pistons (part of the rebuild, the oem parts can be cheap) thinner head gasket (part of the rebuild) underdrive pulleys (can easily sell those to other 4/7a-fe owners at slightly lower cost) and the header..... now all of that, isn't going to cost ALL that much.... the rest is preperation for what's next on the car (either 20V 7a-ge or possibly 7a-gte)..... and also, not everyone is building their car to beat an h22 powered civic in the straights......  and to be honest, seeing how there are so many 4/7a-fe owners that are building their car for some sort of high revving n/a application (his original intent) you won't find much at all in terms of "research"..... most owners are way too cheap... so in essence, it's somewhat uncharted territory..... also, an H22 civic would take a 7a-fte celica as well, so you really can't say much in that department... i'm willing to bet you've spent quite a lot more on your turbo setup... and seeing how you keep bringing up if one can beat you or not, you seem to care about it.... |
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Jan 26, 2004 - 11:12 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From San Juan, PR Currently Offline Reputation: 4 (100%) |
Get over it, my brother...all that baba you wrote is useless...if it hurt you what I wrote (seems like it) bid deal...go eat some Cheetohs or something, hehe, don't get bothered by what I said. It's your opinion, I respect it...you're good to go...here's a lollipop.
-------------------- Past - 7A-FTE: Will never forget you
Present - 3rd Gen 3S-GTE: Swap in progress QUOTE (SinisterSinner @ Dec 19, 2009 - 10:52 AM) I dont want to even think of turbos, they blow up way too often... |
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Jan 26, 2004 - 11:29 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From San Juan, PR Currently Offline Reputation: 4 (100%) |
Haha, no problem, man
-------------------- Past - 7A-FTE: Will never forget you
Present - 3rd Gen 3S-GTE: Swap in progress QUOTE (SinisterSinner @ Dec 19, 2009 - 10:52 AM) I dont want to even think of turbos, they blow up way too often... |
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Jan 27, 2004 - 5:08 PM
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 Enthusiast Joined May 17, '03 From Florence, KY Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
That is a turboed 7age that he's talking about. The guy put it in an MR2. |
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Jan 29, 2004 - 1:56 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 20, '04 From TN Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
club 4AG
click on --------------tech reference then click on ---------5age/7age theres a good bit of info on the 7age frankenstien motor and how well 7afe parts hold up. hope this helps later |
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Jan 29, 2004 - 10:24 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 29, '02 From Dallas, Tx Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
The biggest problem I see is that the 7a manifolds will not work on the 4a head. The intake could be a problem. Getting sensors to switch over could be tricky. You'd almost certainly have to use the 4a ecu (or a standalone) to realize any power gain. The 4a head flows better but its not going to make a lot more power until you get the air moving faster (i.e. higher rpm). The stock 7a rev limiter on my car is at 6750, not 6200 or something as many of you have suggested. I suggest that you don't pay too much attention to the tach needle as its not very accurate. I've heard several people suggest that the stock 7a bottom end will live just fine at 7500rpm. This suggests to me that a properly built and balanced bottom end (but no really trick parts) could live to 8k. At that point you really have the potential to make some power with this conversion.
This post has been edited by SpedToe169: Jan 29, 2004 - 10:40 PM |
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Jan 29, 2004 - 2:46 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
with using a smallport head, you will have to do one of the following (in preperations of us doing the motor swap in my car we came across this issue but got lucky, we think)
you will have to use high ohm injectors from a smallport or use the stock high ohm injectors if you plan on using the 7a-fe ecu..... luckily we're finding that the injectors on my smallport (we believe are the 250CC) are high ohm and we won't have to worry about that for now... |
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Jan 30, 2004 - 12:56 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 26, '02 From Alabama Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
please clear this up for me: is the small port the blue top or the red top? Or is it just a edition of one of them? I also asked what TVIS was a while back and never saw the response.
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Jan 30, 2004 - 1:14 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
smallport is the redtop (aka latemodel as well)....
TVIS is toyota variable induction system, or something like that... it was controls over the amount of air it let in and at certain rpm's it would open a valve (or something to that affect... i'm not 100% sure to be honest).... |
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Jan 30, 2004 - 10:42 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
To elaborate... Basically TVIS (Toyota Variable Induction System) is a series of butterflys built into the Intake manifold, between 2 runners per single cylinder (8 runner intake manifold... Honda has a similar system on the RSX's K20A1). At certain throttle positions, the sensors tell the engine whether or not to open the butterflys and allow for more airflow. The idea behind restricting the airflow from the intake is to create a better broader torque band. At WOT or hard throttle, the butterflys open completly for maximum air intake... All of the early model bluetops (large port head) had TVIS, while it was eliminated in the early 90's in the late model redtops (small port head). There is a very large difference between the 2 engines... nearly every internal component is different. This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Jan 30, 2004 - 10:44 AM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Feb 2, 2004 - 4:13 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
found some new info out this past weekend.... NOT all redtop 4a-ge's are smallports... and it's believed that the smallport only came in 1991-92 even though we got redtops from 89-92 (92 in the prizm gsi).....
so far for using the stock wiring and ecu the only problem we've run into is the TPS.... the project has stopped for now, but we're going to start running without it and see how it does..... |
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Feb 2, 2004 - 4:32 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
Yeah... only the 90-91 Corolla GTS and Prism LSI are the later model high-comp redtops (small port) in the US... every single other one in the US were all the same as bluetops (bigport), regardless of them being black lettering or red lettering. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Feb 2, 2004 - 10:59 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
from what i've heard.... that's bad info... there ARE bigport redtops....... the smallport is labeled off of the block it has...... it's not 100% clear, but there are bigport redtops in the US..... i know this because the guy helping me with his swap, his wife has an 89 corolla GTS with one...... i'd have to ask him, but he's thinking that smallports came only in 91....... and supposedly there have been several debates online about this on other boards.....
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Feb 3, 2004 - 12:25 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 26, '02 From Alabama Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) |
what came in the old school MR-2's that weren't supercharged?
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Feb 3, 2004 - 12:31 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Aug 30, '02 From Michigan Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
MK1 MR2 N/A: 4A-GE
MK1 MR2 SC: 4A-GZE MK2 MR2 N/A: 5S-FE MK2 MR2 TC: 3S-GTE MK3 MR2: 1ZZ-FE -------------------- Believer, you'll leave her, in leaving them all No but I don't buy it Like anything you do, as anyone you are Cause I'm... Ten Speed, of God's Blood & Burial |
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Feb 3, 2004 - 1:59 AM
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Enthusiast Joined Jan 22, '04 From bellingham, WA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
the mk1 mr2 had a bluetop bigport 4a-ge....... |
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Feb 3, 2004 - 1:07 PM
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Enthusiast Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) |
No... I'm pretty sure. I have a 90 Corolla GTS in the driveway as we speak... redtop 7 rib block... non-TVIS smallport 4AGE... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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