2zz, 6 speed swap 100% custom, just as the title says Options

[NOVAKx17]

i have decided to put off the v6 for now and i'm going to put a 2zz into my project celica.
i will be posting pics as i get more and more into it.
in the next couple days i'll have the 5s out and be picking up the 2zz and 6 speed trans. i can't wait to get this going
and be the first of its kind. gonna be fun making the custom mounts and doing the wiring though! but yay for originality!
(:


my thoughts on this swap go from the facts that the 7th gen 2zz engine is known to be a powerhouse, along with the facts

that there is so much aftermarket support for it and parts are fairly cheap but very easy to get at a moments notice!

what do you think?

[njccmd2002]

the cool thing i see are that 2zz are now being abundant on Ebay, i guess an ST platform would be easier that a GT, but anyone can put any engine in any car. I guess youll probably run into a lot of obstacles, but at least originality is there, about time someone here had the balls to attempt something most people say its a waste of time. who knows?

put pics as you go...

[NOVAKx17]

the cool thing i see are that 2zz are now being abundant on Ebay, i guess an ST platform would be easier that a GT, but anyone can put any engine in any car. I guess youll probably run into a lot of obstacles, but at least originality is there, about time someone here had the balls to attempt something most people say its a waste of time. who knows?

put pics as you go...

Very true Noberto.. i actually found a car here locally in a salvage yard that was totaled from a rear/side colision and my buddy owns the yard so he told me if i pull it i can have it for 500 bucks and it includes, engine, trans, axles, ecu, harness, and anything else i want to pick off.. (only 71k miles on the car)

and i agree 100%, i'm sick and tired of all the "GO 3sgte !!!" bullpucky. plus everyone saying it cant be done just makes me want to do it more. once someone hears it can't be done no body even tries it.. its time to put a stop to that

RIGHT MEOW!!

This post has been edited by NOVAKx17: Feb 4, 2013 - 5:49 PM

[Special_Edy]

Make sure you have access to a welder and an alignment machine.

The most understated fact about swapping frontends that don't bolt in is that if you are even a few millimeters off, the car will probably never drive straight.

[richee3]

3S-GTE!

This post has been edited by richee3: Feb 4, 2013 - 11:25 AM

[mkernz22]

I don't see wiring being a huge issue if you can figure it out, but what are you going to do as far as axles?

[Ted95]

You would prob have to swap out the front hubs to fit the 6spd axles I would assume right?

[Smaay]

OMG!!!! you really need to ask me before you start something like this. the 2ZZ is a horrible choice to put into a 6th gen. i have covered this so many times. dude im going to lay into you for this. I have taken time to help you get started on the V6 and then you go this route. that makes me really angry!

ok first off the 2ZZ is backwards from the 7A and 5S or 3S, the header is in the back of the engine and i have no doubt that its going to hit the steering rack. so now you need a custom header that NOBODY makes! next you need to fab up all 4 engine mounts. that is time consuming and very expensive. the engine and transmission needs to be in perfect alignment or you are going to have performance issues.

Next comes the wiring, the gauges in the cars with 2ZZ engines are all digital, that means the ECU controls the gauges. you are going to need some extra wiring or maybe even a few more "boxes" to capture that signal and send it to your old analog gauges.

ok now lets talk cost. 2ZZ engines are not that cheap! and you also need a 6 speed transmission. so again just to get that you are going to spend about 3000 bucks. and let me tell you a little bit about 2ZZ engines. they are very very intolerant to abuse. if the prior owner didnt pay attention to oil there could be some bearing damage.

finally power, the 2ZZ does NOT make tons of power. bone stock the make about 165 HP and less than 120 TQ! yes there is aftermarket support for them but its expensive and it take a lot of parts to make any power in a 2ZZ. the 6th gen is a much heavier car over a 7th gen meaning its going to feel like driving an ST.

there are a number of other reasons you should not go this route. but if you got a hard on for it then good luck to you. Dont come crying to me for help after i told you not to!

[mkernz22]

Well I mean he's getting the whole car for $500 which isn't bad.
If it's really that much of a hassle, I think you should take the car and part it out cause you could make some decent money on it. Then just use that money to do a V6 swap and build it a bit.

off topic:

And Smaay, could you PM me what you told him?
If my engine ever goes out on me, I'm swapping in a V6.

[Smaay]

ok i just saw that you can get everything for 500 bucks. I suggest you pull all those parts and sell them off. if they are in as good a shape as you describe, i HIGHLY suggest you sell them of. you can get 2000 for the engine, 800-1000 for the trans (granted it does not grind in 3rd or 4th)(very common), 100 for the ECU, 200 for the wiring harness, 100 for the axles.

that is way over 3000 bucks which will easily pay for a V6 swap done right!


what year is this 2ZZ coming from? there are still a ton of issues that need to be addressed.

[njccmd2002]

hey man, your time, your money your swap, go for it.

[Smaay]

actually the hub is the same between the 7th gen and 6th gen. im more concerned about the length. When i modified the E153 from the MR2 to mate up to the 2ZZ we use the same axles, MR2 inners and ST185 outters.

[richee3]

3S-GTE!

3S-GTE!

[delusionz]

i find it hard to believe that in New Zealand, you can order custom cut forged axles yet such a thing doesn't exist in the United States? DAFUQ?

sorry Smaay, but I sat and watched a 1UZ-FE get transplanted into an RX7 at the engineering shop FASTER than it took to order 3SGTE parts for my car.

You make the small things sound impossible.

This kid can do anything, didn't you read his thread about putting smaller wheels on the rear?

[czwalga]

i find it hard to believe that in New Zealand, you can order custom cut forged axles yet such a thing doesn't exist in the United States? DAFUQ?

sorry Smaay, but I sat and watched a 1UZ-FE get transplanted into an RX7 at the engineering shop FASTER than it took to order 3SGTE parts for my car.

You make the small things sound impossible.

This kid can do anything, didn't you read his thread about putting smaller wheels on the rear?

You can get them, i've had custom axles made for my rx7 since it has a rear end out of a viper. Is the cost worth it for 170 hp celica though? hell no.



The rx7's are a lot easier to work with. Front steering on the rx7 vs rear steering on the celica makes a huge difference.

[Tigawoods]

This kid can do anything, didn't you read his thread about putting smaller wheels on the rear?

Lets calm it down now

[Ted95]

3S-GTE!

3S-GTE!

[BonzaiCelica]

yes this thing will be 100% legal in your state but so will a k20a i mean you guys don't have to do smog

i would put a k20a in a st celica if i had the money over the 2zz even though it would be more work(electrical, but you'd be getting 30 more hp from honda engine.

[travisxcore]

3S-GTE!

3S-GTE!

5S-GTE!

If you wanna waste the time and money then go for it. If you do succeed then you just proved 90% of the 6GC community wrong. That being said, I doubt anyone else would ever do it, the time and money isn't worth the 40hp. You'd be better off making a 7A-GTE if you wanted to have something different.

i find it hard to believe that in New Zealand, you can order custom cut forged axles yet such a thing doesn't exist in the United States? DAFUQ?

sorry Smaay, but I sat and watched a 1UZ-FE get transplanted into an RX7 at the engineering shop FASTER than it took to order 3SGTE parts for my car.

You make the small things sound impossible.

This kid can do anything, didn't you read his thread about putting smaller wheels on the rear?

You can get them, i've had custom axles made for my rx7 since it has a rear end out of a viper. Is the cost worth it for 170 hp celica though? hell no.



The rx7's are a lot easier to work with. Front steering on the rx7 vs rear steering on the celica makes a huge difference.

Your RX7 is sexy and I am extremely disappointed we couldn't drive it around.

yes this thing will be 100% legal in your state but so will a k20a i mean you guys don't have to do smog

i would put a k20a in a st celica if i had the money over the 2zz even though it would be more work(electrical, but you'd be getting 30 more hp from honda engine.

Youre joking...right?

This post has been edited by travisxcore: Feb 4, 2013 - 4:01 PM

[mkernz22]

Just f*cking swap in a V6.

[richee3]

3S-GTE!

3S-GTE!

What they said.

[Special_Edy]

Have you done measurements?

The engine/transmission need to fit the engine compartment; length width and height.
The axles need to be straight and centered when the car is at ride height. This may mean you have to cut a hole in the firewall or radiator support, the hood or the suspension/engine crossmember. The center of the wheels will have to line up with the differential and the location of the wheels in relation to the drivetrain may be very different on a seventh gen.
As smaay said the axle absolutely must be the same length as the oem sixth gen unless you swap control arms and tierods. All the suspension components are specific lengths because they are all triangulated.

[NOVAKx17]

I don't see wiring being a huge issue if you can figure it out, but what are you going to do as far as axles?

Custom made axles from a local shop, going to take the whole car in when i get the engine dropped in and everything bolted in and welded securely.

3S-GTE!

3s-gte is like herpes on this site... everybody has it anymore.

Smaay-- i am still doing a v6 swap as well, but it will be going in my Vert. and i was going to ask you to give me a hand with something for my project if you can pm me brother.

This kid can do anything, didn't you read his thread about putting smaller wheels on the rear?

thanks for the support brother. that thread was just to see if there would be any issues with wearing unevenly.
the best engine builder in the world can know absolutely nothing about suspension. you seem to be judgmental.

[C-Lara]

We've gotten 2zz into xds before. Its a good motor. Redlining at 8-10k. Its great but your not gonna like it cause it lacks torque. Weight wise. Were not too far. Corolla xrs are about 2600lbs. Xd's just about that. But your gonna have to fabricate many pieces.

Aftermarket suppport. Tons
But if ur going n/a its an expensive game. They gotten up to 250hp but that's stroked motor and whatnot
The engine can and are a powerhouse. Get up to 350hp on stock internals. Not bad for a high compression motor. But the engine does have some weak spots nd so does the trans. Some people beef up the trans but people realize its best to make the smaller step further and get the 2zz mated to an E153

[NOVAKx17]

We've gotten 2zz into xds before. Its a good motor. Redlining at 8-10k. Its great but your not gonna like it cause it lacks torque. Weight wise. Were not too far. Corolla xrs are about 2600lbs. Xd's just about that. But your gonna have to fabricate many pieces.

Aftermarket suppport. Tons
But if ur going n/a its an expensive game. They gotten up to 250hp but that's stroked motor and whatnot
The engine can and are a powerhouse. Get up to 350hp on stock internals. Not bad for a high compression motor. But the engine does have some weak spots nd so does the trans. Some people beef up the trans but people realize its best to make the smaller step further and get the 2zz mated to an E153

thanks for the input.
i plan on running boost.
going to keep the internals stock for now, figure why not since it only has 71k miles and runs great
plus id like to get it in the car and running before i dump cash into the engine.

[SwissFerdi]

3S-GTE!

3S-GTE!

3S-GTE?

This post has been edited by SwissFerdi: Feb 4, 2013 - 5:05 PM

[richee3]

Alright, I'm done joking around now. I wrote a serious post earlier but decided to go with the cry for a 3S based on the original post. Mike, I totally understand the desire to have an uncommon swap, but honestly the 2ZZ is a terrible pick. There's a reason that we all say go for a 3S-GTE, not a 2ZZ. Your 5S has more torque than a 2ZZ, and let's be honest... the 3S swap looks common on 6gc, but how many have you seen in real life? It's not a common thing at all. If you want a high compression N/A engine, swap a BEAMS. The swap will be far simpler and cheaper than a 2ZZ, has loads more torque and 17 hp more, and is a far better choice for a 6gc chassis. But if you're going to swap a BEAMS, then why not be more sensible and swap a V6? See how it all comes back around to what makes the most power for the least work and money?

What I'm getting at is if you want to do a swap that hasn't been done before, then a 6gc isn't the right chassis to do it in. There are better cars out there to do swaps in. If you're determined to do a complicated swap in a Celica, then do a 2GR. Wiring will be equally complicated to the 2ZZ, you'll have the same exhaust hitting the steering issue, except you'll have a motor that can actually handle the weight of a 6gc without thousands of dollars to boost. You know I'm not trying to shut down your ideas or enthusiasm, but a 2ZZ isn't the engine to pick. There are better engines for a T20 chassis. I'm absolutely not saying don't do something new or interesting, but I am saying that you'll regret a 2ZZ swap. Ever driven a Celica GT-S? They feel dreadfully slow until they hit lift, then you have to shift and the fun is over until you hit lift again. Let me give some number for comparison... The 7th gen is ~ 100 lbs lighter than the 6th gen, yet has less torque than a 6th gen GT until like 6,500 rpm.

Also, let me throw this out there. I have a Celica with a high revving, high compression engine. It isn't fun to DD. Revving to the sky is no fun unless you're somewhere where you can keep the engine revved up that high. The Celica is a heavy chassis so an engine that makes power in the low RPM's is a better choice. High revving, low torque engines like the 2ZZ are more suited for a lighter chassis.

This post has been edited by richee3: Feb 4, 2013 - 5:15 PM

[Smaay]

NOBODY has made 250HP in a 2ZZ NA

the 7th gen is much lighter that a 6th gen.

[travisxcore]

7th gen motors are crude. I see more 7gcs in the yard then I do 6gcs. Funny thing is all the 6gcs look like they were in a destruction derby, the 7gcs look pretty decent...well besides the fact most of them are riced out like crazy.

There is a reason everyone suggests the 3SGTE. Its way more bang for your buck. Plus its a whole lot more reliable, you really think that 2ZZ will make it to 250k and beyond? I doubt it.

Don't turn that 6gc in to a poor crudey sad car!

Make her happy and keep an era/chassis appropriate motor!

[czwalga]

V8 rwd not much more work! why the hell not.

[C-Lara]

NOBODY has made 250HP in a 2ZZ NA

the 7th gen is much lighter that a 6th gen.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f25/smw-2z...t-results-9023/

Weight does play a big role for this engine

This post has been edited by C-Lara: Feb 4, 2013 - 5:38 PM

[njccmd2002]

Wow all this negativism. Why?

[BonzaiCelica]

the 7gc is 100-120 lbs lighter than 6th gen gt with 5sfe. which is not that much

the st celica with 7afe weighs 100 lbs lighter than Celica gt2 with 2zz engine. so its ideal to put 2zz into a at200 chassis. as it will put that quite nicely like a beams motor in the high rev range

but have you ever seen or tried looking for a salvage 2002+ integra or civic with k20 engine honestly. the guys who have 2000-2005 mr2 do this swap every so often. There is more info on wiring than there is info on wiring for 7afe to 2zzge

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 4, 2013 - 5:59 PM

[Ted95]

Everything Richee said is 100% correct. If your looking for a fun N/A ride I'd go for the V6 or a Beams but leaning towards the V6 as you will an opportunity to SC it down the road if you wanted to. usually you would want to put a larger motor into a lighter car not a smaller motor into a heavier car..

If your looking to potentially boost the 2zz down the road then you really are better off swapping in a 3s as the motor is already built factory to produce ~300hp.. (yes I said 300hp..) and it really isn't that common of a swap (although there are 5 swaps with in 40miles of me which all belong to this forum, East Coast loves 3sgte lol) outside of this forum NO ONE has any idea about the 3sgte and what the Celica can do. They really are sleepers.

Heck toss this around in your head, you could potentially have a SC V6 celi and a 3sgte celi.. best of both worlds if you ask me lol. I admire your eagerness to do something completely outside the box, but I think you might find yourself wanting to jump back in and it will already be to late

This post has been edited by Ted95: Feb 4, 2013 - 5:56 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

Wow all this negativism. Why?

people here are just ranting as always. richee you made good points. and novak already knows them.

so just do it and while you are doing the swap ask us questions simple as that. enough talk already we need action from you.

[richee3]

You should put an SR20 in there. Gotta do it more than a week before Race Wars though, those things start to pull a premium.

[NOVAKx17]

100 lbs won't make that huge of a difference, especially considering the whole car will be gutted and we'll lose some weight there as well.

and czwalga, i thought about the tempting idea of a sbc 350 in there with rwd conversion after seeing the guy in wv sucessfully do that swap to his 7th gen celica

You should put an SR20 in there. Gotta do it more than a week before Race Wars though, those things start to pull a premium.

okay johnny tran (;

[klue]

the 2zz is a turd, if your gonna do something different make it good. Do a k20

[C-Lara]

the 2zz is a turd, if your gonna do something different make it good. Do a k20

Not offended but really? Lol .. I'm hoping your basing this off experience and not youtube videos

This post has been edited by C-Lara: Feb 4, 2013 - 7:14 PM

[Tigawoods]

SO MANY WORDSSS

[BonzaiCelica]

beams blacktop into 6gc its been done here on the st182 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJSEl30qn6s

since the 2zzge is returnless fuel line and as well is the beams blacktop its the same crap.

but your best bet would probably be buy a 3sge redtop, get the internals from a beams blacktop and then buy an aftermarket aem standalone ecu.

you'd be at 220hp and about 30 more lbs of torque over the 2zzge.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 8, 2013 - 4:17 AM

[klue]

the 2zz is a turd, if your gonna do something different make it good. Do a k20

Not offended but really? Lol .. I'm hoping your basing this off experience and not youtube videos

whats youtube?

270whp on a k20, and I needed a supercharger to make 230 on a 2zz(no cams)

but thats not my only reason for saying it. K20 is a better designed motor, better transmission.

Either way I think its a bad ass idea. I would never do it, because I rather make power than be different(3sgte) but to each their own.
Good luck dude

[C-Lara]

the 2zz is a turd, if your gonna do something different make it good. Do a k20

Not offended but really? Lol .. I'm hoping your basing this off experience and not youtube videos

whats youtube?

270whp on a k20, and I needed a supercharger to make 230 on a 2zz(no cams)

but thats not my only reason for saying it. K20 is a better designed motor, better transmission.

Either way I think its a bad ass idea. I would never do it, because I rather make power than be different(3sgte) but to each their own.
Good luck dude

With bolt ons and a tune, we managed to hit over 200hp no internals. Not all k20s are a greater designed for the k20a3 had much lower hp and redline than the rest of the fleet. The other k20 does have a better foundation that didn't start till after the 2zz was produced.
And I see the 2zz most compared to the b-series engines.

But yes, the 2zz isn't best choice for this car

[Syaoran]

C-Lara you are right, 2ZZ is supposed to be competition for the B18C, the Integra GSR engine. In fact, VVTL-i was introduced exclusively in the 2ZZ to be Toyota's take on Honda's VTEC (which includes variable valve timing and lift, aka VVTL)

VTEC is not the same as VVT-i, because VTEC is a fixed increase/decrease in valve timing and lift, while VVT-i is continuously variable valve timing. With the VVTL-i, variable lift was introduced as well.

Then Honda made i-VTEC which is the same as VVTL-i, where the timing is continuously variable and has lift increase as well.

[mgnt232]

good luck, gonna take a while