st 204 turbo Options

[thorshammer]

Hi I have a st204 Celica with 5fse engine and am wanting o turbo it. I have read 1bwilson's and Shid's posts on turboing a 5sfe and list of components needed and this seems to be the best way to go. In my neck of the woods CT26 turbos are hard to come by, T3/T4 turbo is easier to sourc.e My question is what T3/T4 do I need and other than a CT26-T3/T4 adaptor is there anything else I need. I live in Australia so Mustangs and other American cars are not common here but plenty of Japanese sources. Thanks

[Smaay]

read my thread and Pressure2 threads. I have a few turbos left over from when i ordered 5 turbos.

[Syaoran]

If you're gonna use t3/t4 don't get the adapters unless you can't get a manifold fabbed up.

The most important part of turboing the car isn't the turbo, it's how you're going to tune it. The turbo you choose only matters when considering response, powerband and final power output.

If you have a Garrett GT2871R and have a ****ty SAFC as a tuning solution then you can expect your engine to go boom.


First see if you have the budget to install a good tuning solution and then choose what turbo you're going to use.

[JoshuaM]

Which state are you in, and are you off your P plates yet? Two very important things to consider if you want to turbo in Australia - because our laws are much stricter here when it comes to certifying modifications.

[thorshammer]

Thanks for the replies. Firstly I live in NSW and was off P-plates 30+ years ago. Im a mechanic but didnt start my apprenticeship till I was 32 so been qualified bout 14yrs. Picked up the celica dirt cheap at council auctions for abandoned vehicles, was going to fix and sell it but decided to build myself the toy I never had as a teenager instead. Im not looking to get it standing on its head just beef it up a bit, although ct26 might be a frag to small. Am going to rebuild engine, not going to use forged pistons or rods but if there are more suitable rod bolts, big end and main bearings, valve springs etc il put them in. As for tuning solution hopefully something in the $500 range will do, if anybody has any ideas id appreciate it. Been trying to source the rx7 blue top 440cc injectors cause they are ment to drop straight in but seem rare as hens teeth. How much for one of those T3s you have Smaay-changing oil filter looks like lots of fun lol. Thanks again, any advice from people who have been there done that is always appreciated.

[Chovies]

Do us a favor and do the 3stge engine swap and see how easy it is to do in NSW haha, Better for you and the rest of us will finally have a yes/no.

[Syaoran]

1. Im not looking to get it standing on its head just beef it up a bit, although ct26 might be a frag to small.


2. Am going to rebuild engine, not going to use forged pistons or rods but if there are more suitable rod bolts, big end and main bearings, valve springs etc il put them in.

3. As for tuning solution hopefully something in the $500 range will do, if anybody has any ideas id appreciate it.

4.Been trying to source the rx7 blue top 440cc injectors cause they are ment to drop straight in but seem rare as hens teeth.

1. CT26 is good enough for around 200-220whp, all else remaining stock with 93 octane fuel and a good tune. Like I said, the good tune is what matters, and I'd personally spend more on a good computer than a "good" turbo.

2. There are no suitable rod bolts. Either you grind the 5S-FE crank down to accept 3S-GTE rods (forged or stock), or you get forged rods for the 5S-FE.

3. For $500 you can get a piggyback. Piggybacks are not that good really. Only "useful" one is the GReddy E-Manage Ultimate. I'd go for a Megasquirt-II or similar standalone instead. A good tune means both power and durability, as well as fuel economy.

4. You are looking for the RX-7 red top injectors which are high impedance. The blue tops I had never heard of being used in the 5S, and the purple top are I think 550cc and low impedance.

Regardless of what you do, you should get a newer camry oil pump with the crank sensor provision, the crank sensor for it and the timing gear with the trigger wheel in it. It'll make your tuner's life a lot easier than having to deal with the stock distributor which is ****.

[thorshammer]

Tanks for the reply Syaoran. Ordered a oil pump 10 days ago from Taiwan and put it in car today. Then got home and looked at your post-no biggie got to take the whole thing out when I rebuild anyway. I looked at photos of the pump I got and pumps for camry with sensor and cant see any difference? How would I go about hooking it up? I think these are the injectors your talking about RX-7 NA 460cc - Red Top #195500-2010. Again not easy to find but I have time on my side. Im thinking of GREDDY E-MANAGE EMANAGE ULTIMATE CONTROL - 15500501. Any lines on a twin intake CT26 would be appreciated.

[presure2]

trust me, instead of getting the emanage ultimate, get the megasquirt.

the emanage is just a more advanced piggyback, i had it for a few years on my 5sfte that made 300+whp. (read my thread like smaay posted, its worth the read to go thru both our posts, as well as syaoran's build thread he is working on.)
the megasquirt will give you full control of fuel and more importantly on the 5sfte, timing.
the stock ECU is setup for n/a, and has alot of timing, especially in the low load areas, too much for a boosted application, and that will cause issues, no matter the piggyback.

unless your ultimate goal is only 220-250whp, i would skip the ct-26 and at least go 20b. the '26 creates tons of backpressure at anything over stockish boost, and with that comes heat.
that extra heat is bad, especially on a 5s, even more so with a piggyback.

if your gonna build a t3/4 based setup, check out supershannons thread that i made, its got alot of details and pics that will show you what needs to be done.

the crank sensor bolts to the oil pump housing, and the crank pully for the timing belt has the trigger wheel built into it.
you cant use that with the stock ECU (in a 94-95, all the 96+ 5s had em)
its not absolutly needed, especially for a budget build, but it definetly allows more accurate timing information than the stock distributor.
rods i wouldnt worry about unless your looking to make 400+whp, or looking to raise your redline.

really have a serious read thru my build thread, there are alot of details in there that your totally missing, that would cover alot of the questions you seem to have.

ill have to do a podcast on the 5sfte in the next couple weeks.
if you havent yet, i suggest checking out the podcast thread in the general disscussion forum.

[lagos]

the stock ECU is setup for n/a, and has alot of timing, especially in the low load areas, too much for a boosted application, and that will cause issues, no matter the piggyback.

I can't stress enough how important this fact posted by presure2 is!

After tuning my megasquirt for the past few months and learning a lot about ignition timing maps, I am amazed that the 5sfTe setups running any type of piggy back manage to hold up as long as they do. In fact Id guess that the only reason they do is that the factory knock sensor is very good and stepping in and constantly pulling timing (and robbing you of power) in an attempt to save the motor.

To give you an example of what I mean, a none turbo motor runs around 30 degrees of ignition timing at high load (100kpa is high load for an NA motor).

*Not a real toyota map, just an example of the idea.

So these will pretty much be your timing values with something like an Emanage. With an SAFC, this will be even worse as the safc will fool the ecu into thinking its at a lower load in some cases giving you even more timing (the posted map is not a great example of this, but the factory ecu could run as much as 40 degrees in this range.

On a factory turbo ecu these timing values need to be tuned to decrease as boost increases (the area from 100kpa to 200+) to account for the extra heat/power produced by the turbo, and in the case of a 5sfTe, would probably need to be dropped down to the 10-14 degree range.


Because of this I believe the factory ecu is the next weak link in the 5sfTe setup.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 4, 2013 - 12:28 PM

[presure2]

agreed 100% art.
in all these 5sfte setups, the ecu is the weak link.
and your also 100% right about the knock system as well!

[thorshammer]

Read through your entire post tonight-what a ride. Pretty much going to stick to the formula that has been tried and tested. Will get the Megasquirt and other parts you suggest. Sourcing the 460 injectors is proving troublesome, are there any others of a similar output that can be used? The only reason Im considering the T3/T4 is because they are easy to get. Besides the CT26 and CT20b are there any other turbos you recommend? I noticed the difference in strength of the 98 block and am considering just getting a clagged out engine out of a 98 model from the local wreckers and rebuilding that, then I have the stronger block and crank angle sensor all in one. I do alot of business with them and can probably get it for $400 or so. Also I noticed or didnt notice a catalytic convertor on your car, did you remove it? Thats something I have to have to fit in with emission laws in Australia. Really appreciate the work you put into your build and sharing the information, ta.

[presure2]

if your gonna go t3/4 based, read thru supershannons 5sfte thread, heres a link
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52431&hl=

for a t3/4 based setup, i'd look for a 46trim compressor, with the .63 hotside.

the 98+ block is nice, but not needed unless your looking to make big power. you can just rebuild your own motor, and have your machine shop prep the block and head for a metal headgasket, and just get the 98+ hg.
you can get a high flow cat, i didnt need to on my car, so i took them all out when i redid the exahust for the turbo setup.

you should size your injectors based on your power goals, but if your gonna go mega squirt i wouldnt get smaller than the 460s. with the stock ecu in place it gets difficult to get the car to run properly with larger injectors, but with the MS that wont really matter, so you can get pretty much any injectors that will fit in the rail and head.

[delusionz]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

[Syaoran]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

Megasquirt is 16x16 if it's a Megasquirt-III, both for fuel and ignition maps. Megasquirt-I isn't worth the time or money.
I found that to be more than enough in my case. Given the price of the Megasquirt-II, the unit is more than worth it for a project like a 5S-FE turbo setup.

@OP: Regardless of what turbo setup or whatever you will need this:



The Megasquirt-II loves the stock sensor and (36-2) trigger wheel.

As for the turbo I would get the t3/t4 because of the availability and ease of repair/rebuild when it's needed.

The 98+ block isn't necessary as presure2 said BUT, if you can afford it I'd build that instead mainly because your engine I assume is running alright. I would just build another engine and keep yours stored in case of emergency.

Aside from that, the newer 98+ SHOULD bring everything you need (oil pump, crank angle sensor, timing gear with trigger wheel and both coil packs for a wasted spark ignition.

This post has been edited by Syaoran: Jul 5, 2013 - 11:30 PM

[lagos]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

The timing map is 12x12 and the fuel map is 16x16.
I honestly don't know what you need more resolution for as the entire thing interpolates between all of the table values to give you basically infinite resolution. 32x32 tables might sound great on paper, but good luck tuning 1,024 individual cells.

But if thats still not enough, you can trigger the table switching function in the ecu to give you 30 x 16 or 16 x 30 fuel tables and 12 x 22 or 22 x 12 spark tables by having the ecu use the dual map feature that ms2 has.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 5, 2013 - 11:45 PM

[Syaoran]

Wow, is megasquirt only 12x12?? f**k that my power fc is 20x20 and i find that not enough.

also I find GT28* series turbos exhaust side too small, I made a huge mistake in choosing one. Would recommend GT3071R with the small option rear housing instead

The timing map is 12x12 and the fuel map is 16x16.
I honestly don't know what you need more resolution for as the entire thing interpolates between all of the table values to give you basically infinite resolution. 32x32 tables might sound great on paper, but good luck tuning 1,024 individual cells.

MS3 is 16x16 on both, too. I see that all the time, even on piggy backs like the AEM F/IC, where they boast a 20x17 table, I believe... but is it really that necessary? I mean, 12x12 in my case is more than enough. My tuner likes it that way and the car ran fine before the engine finally gave way after horrible years of abuse from a neglecting PO. The MS3 is 16x16 so if you're into larger numbers go ahead and get that (even though the main reason you should is because the MS3X outclasses most other ECUs in its neighborhood, considering feature:cost ratio)

[thorshammer]

Mate down at the wreckers has got a 5sfe out of a 98 Camry he'll sell to me for $220, the head is cactus but seeing as Im rebuilding its not going to cost me any more than if it was in good nick. Questions-can I drop the 98 eng. head and all straight in after rebuild and just change the ecu. I assume I have to to change the ecu cause of coil pack and crank sensor, il probably be running it unmodified for a while before I get Megasquirt and other stuff I need together.

[presure2]

Mate down at the wreckers has got a 5sfe out of a 98 Camry he'll sell to me for $220, the head is cactus but seeing as Im rebuilding its not going to cost me any more than if it was in good nick. Questions-can I drop the 98 eng. head and all straight in after rebuild and just change the ecu. I assume I have to to change the ecu cause of coil pack and crank sensor, il probably be running it unmodified for a while before I get Megasquirt and other stuff I need together.

No, u will use your stock ecu and accessories until you install the megasquirt.
The 96+ stuff requires obdII wiring to work properly.
You will just leave the crank sensor ect there, ready to use when u install the ms unit.

[Syaoran]

Mate down at the wreckers has got a 5sfe out of a 98 Camry he'll sell to me for $220, the head is cactus but seeing as Im rebuilding its not going to cost me any more than if it was in good nick. Questions-can I drop the 98 eng. head and all straight in after rebuild and just change the ecu. I assume I have to to change the ecu cause of coil pack and crank sensor, il probably be running it unmodified for a while before I get Megasquirt and other stuff I need together.

No, u will use your stock ecu and accessories until you install the megasquirt.
The 96+ stuff requires obdII wiring to work properly.
You will just leave the crank sensor ect there, ready to use when u install the ms unit.

^Exactly. Leave the crank sensor installed and take off the coilpacks and put the distributor in place before putting on the megasquirt.

Your ECU works fine as long as you use all of your accessories and wiring harness on the new engine.

[thorshammer]

So basically its the 98 block with 95 head and (just guessing) you wire the crank angel sensor into the megasquirt?

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

[lagos]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

It requires a few modifications to use (particularly installing a Zeal Dual VR conditioner board.

Taking measures from the crank directly is way more accurate than having the ECU translate the cam revolutions into crank revolutions, since what it actually needs is crank position and not cam position. (cam position is only necessary for sequential ignition if I'm not mistaken, and really only one tooth is necessary, you don't need a trigger wheel on the distributor for COP ignition if you have a crank angle sensor with a trigger wheel mounted on the crankshaft itself.)

Believe me when I say it works much, much better with the crank sensor than the distributor from the 5S. I don't know if you've ever seen one on the inside, but the distributor on the 5S has a weird trigger wheel, it's not exactly a trigger wheel like the conventional ones (36-1, 36-2, 60-2, 24-1 etc)

Besides, distributors aren't better than the wasted spark coils that the 98+ Camry engines have. They put out more energy than the stock distributor ignition coil, too, and there's absolutely no chance of interference from the magnetic field generated by the coils since the crankshaft position sensor is down there, and the coils are all the way up here.

[lagos]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

It requires a few modifications to use (particularly installing a Zeal Dual VR conditioner board.

It might require the Zeal board, but only if you are using the standard MS2/PCB setup. The DIYPNP kit (microsquirt based) I used on my 3s had an optional LM1815 circuit included, but I never needed to use it. All I had to do was install a 33 kohm pull down resistor, to lower the pickup threshold for the the cam signal. The NE crank signal had no problems being picked up with or without a pull down resistor.

Because of this I think the DIYPNP kits are the best solutions for the 5s/3s. Same setup that I have should work with a 5s distributor (aren't all toyota distributors 24-1?) , and if you happen to find out that you need to run the signal through the conditioner, there is one included on the circuit board.

You might be able to get a crank only setup to work, but personally Id rather have sequential injection.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 8, 2013 - 10:41 PM

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Can't you just use the crank angle sensor inside the distributor on a 5sfe?
I know some 5s models came with an actual crank sensor, but on the 3sgte we take both crank (NE) and Cam (G1/G2) from the distributor.

It requires a few modifications to use (particularly installing a Zeal Dual VR conditioner board.

It might require the Zeal board, but only if you are using the standard MS2/PCB setup. The DIYPNP kit (microsquirt based) I used on my 3s had an optional LM1815 circuit included, but I never needed to use it. All I had to do was install a 33 kohm pull down resistor, to lower the pickup threshold for the the cam signal. The NE crank signal had no problems being picked up with or without a pull down resistor.

Because of this I think the DIYPNP kits are the best solutions for the 5s/3s. Same setup that I have should work with a 5s distributor (aren't all toyota distributors 24-1?) , and if you happen to find out that you need to run the signal through the conditioner, there is one included on the circuit board.

You might be able to get a crank only setup to work, but personally Id rather have sequential injection.

Again, the 3S distributor is different. If I could take a picture of the 5S 93+ distributor I would right now but I don't have a camera. Trust me when I say it's not 24-1, and it has no cam AND "crank" wheel on the distributor. It's only got 4 slanted teeth that send a particular signal that CANNOT be properly interpreted in its full extent by the traditional MS2.

DIYPNP is different. I'm talking about what I've dealt with which is MS2, and now will deal with MS3X. In reality, everyone should run MS2 with crank trigger wheel and wasted spark. It can run sequential injection with just the crank trigger wheel. You don't need cam and crank triggers for sequential injection. You need the cam signal only for true COP. Wasted spark works fine, though. If it didn't, Mitsubishi wouldn't have used it in the 4g63 for many years.

It's not a "might be able" to get a crank-only setup to work. It simply works. You might not have had the starting issues that I had with my 5S running on a bare MS2. Sometimes it would crank and start, sometimes it would not. The MS2 doesn't like the stock distributor wheel on the 5S. It does however love the 36-2 wheel and stock sensor.

Think about it: why try to get something to work, when something else simply just does? The DIYPNP isn't worth it when you take into consideration that the normal MS2 works fine if you use a regular crank trigger wheel.

Personally, I prefer having the wiring loom on the regular MS2 and now the MS3. I can splice in that extra connection when needed much easier than I can on the DIYPNP. I don't mean to sound condescending or anything really, I'm just sharing what I know which I believe is a lot more simple.

[lagos]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

[Syaoran]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

[lagos]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

So once your friend swapped over to the pre 93 distributor, he had to modify it by shaving off one of the teeth to get that setup to work with MS2 because the G1/G2 signal wouldn't pick up, right?

I think there is a difference in how that whole circuit is run between the standard MS2 and the Diypnp PCB boards. The DIYPNP has a circuit for adjustment of the signal coming from the distributor, is there such a thing on the standard MS2? I believe that on Toyota distributors, the problem isn't so much that there is noise or anything that needs to be conditioned. Its more of an issue with the signal being fairly weak and needing adjustment to get picked up. I know that that this has been an issue for years, and it was one of the things that kept me from installing ms2 all these years (I wanted a plug and play solution).

I originally really struggled with getting mine to work, as it didn't want to work even with the pull down resistors the DIYPNP uses. It wasn't until I switched from g1 to g2 cam pick up that the entire thing starting working correctly.

This is some good info btw. Id like to really know what can/can't work with the 94+ 5sfe when it comes to megasquirt.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 9, 2013 - 1:02 AM

[Syaoran]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

So once your friend swapped over to the pre 93 distributor, he had to modify it by shaving off one of the teeth to get that setup to work with MS2 because the G1/G2 signal wouldn't pick up, right?

I think there is a difference in how that whole circuit is run between the standard MS2 and the Diypnp PCB boards. The DIYPNP has a circuit for adjustment of the signal coming from the distributor, is there such a thing on the standard MS2? I believe that on Toyota distributors, the problem isn't so much that there is noise or anything that needs to be conditioned. Its more of an issue with the signal being fairly weak and needing adjustment to get picked up. I know that that this has been an issue for years, and it was one of the things that kept me from installing ms2 all these years (I wanted a plug and play solution).

I originally really struggled with getting mine to work, as it didn't want to work even with the pull down resistors the DIYPNP uses. It wasn't until I switched from g1 to g2 cam pick up that the entire thing starting working correctly.

This is some good info btw. Id like to really know what can/can't work with the 94+ 5sfe when it comes to megasquirt.

I'm not entirely sure but I believe that he did it not because he was having issues but because he knew it would work like that. He ground the tooth off prior to re-configuring the setup.

I can't answer that question regarding the circuit for adjustment of the signal, as my knowledge on the circuitry aspect of the MS is limited in some areas. I didn't build mine, nor will I build the MS3X. The same person who built my MS2 will build the MS3X I am going to be running. I don't remember seeing anything for adjusting signals coming from the VR sensor other than a potentiometer that could be adjusted in order to get a (cleaner?) signal going through the RPM circuit of the MS2. It might be that, but I'm not sure.

[lagos]

Hmm so its the 93+ that is different. I haven't seen the insides of a celica distributor for a while, so Id love to see a pic of how it compares of someone feels like throwing one up.

This one is from an early 90s 5sfe mr2. Its exactly the same as my 3s one. I wonder If this distributor could be swapped over for 5s guys (not because its better, but to ease installation).


I mentioned "might be able to work", because my 3s didn't want to start with just an NE signal (with sequential injection). Once I managed to get both a crank and a cam signal from the distributor, the setup has worked flawlessly. The car starts up faster than the stock ecu, and overall runs better and smoother than the stock ecu ever did.

I think the DIYPNP is great because its a smaller box, easier to solder, comes with pnp connectors and has the LM conditioner built in should you need it. The standard MS2 is also a great way to go (and I think cheaper as well), but I personally wanted a solution that would work out of the box with my stock distributor.

I have one of those. Initially, I was going to go with that distributor and a Chrysler 420a dual tower coilpack. I have a friend who assembles megasquirts and he setup a pre93 distro onto a post93 MR2 5S with the 420a wasted spark coils. He ran semi-sequential injection with that distributor.

The MR2 was on MS2 and he modified the trigger wheel to make it a 24-1 so that he didn't have to use anything but the MS2's native trigger wheel decoder. It ran good and solved the previous issue it had with the stock 5S distributor. However the semi-sequential injection never worked properly after trying different settings so it went back to batch fire.

That same MR2 now has the trigger wheel I gave him, the OE sensor and a 98+ oil pump on there, and it's running full sequential injection with 0 issues, with wasted spark 420a coils. He was looking to set it up with a different coil pack but it's running fine on those ATM.

The newer 98+ camry engines should have a cam sensor and a different cam sprocket with a tab on it. They come set up for sequential ignition and injection, but Toyota decided to use wasted spark ignition and I believe sequential injection.

So once your friend swapped over to the pre 93 distributor, he had to modify it by shaving off one of the teeth to get that setup to work with MS2 because the G1/G2 signal wouldn't pick up, right?

I think there is a difference in how that whole circuit is run between the standard MS2 and the Diypnp PCB boards. The DIYPNP has a circuit for adjustment of the signal coming from the distributor, is there such a thing on the standard MS2? I believe that on Toyota distributors, the problem isn't so much that there is noise or anything that needs to be conditioned. Its more of an issue with the signal being fairly weak and needing adjustment to get picked up. I know that that this has been an issue for years, and it was one of the things that kept me from installing ms2 all these years (I wanted a plug and play solution).

I originally really struggled with getting mine to work, as it didn't want to work even with the pull down resistors the DIYPNP uses. It wasn't until I switched from g1 to g2 cam pick up that the entire thing starting working correctly.

This is some good info btw. Id like to really know what can/can't work with the 94+ 5sfe when it comes to megasquirt.

I'm not entirely sure but I believe that he did it not because he was having issues but because he knew it would work like that. He ground the tooth off prior to re-configuring the setup.

I can't answer that question regarding the circuit for adjustment of the signal, as my knowledge on the circuitry aspect of the MS is limited in some areas. I didn't build mine, nor will I build the MS3X. The same person who built my MS2 will build the MS3X I am going to be running. I don't remember seeing anything for adjusting signals coming from the VR sensor other than a potentiometer that could be adjusted in order to get a (cleaner?) signal going through the RPM circuit of the MS2. It might be that, but I'm not sure.

Yeah, he did it because it was a very common issue and grinding off a tooth was a recommended solution to get things working in the early days . The DIYPNP now has the adjustments needed to get it working with the stock setup on the 3s (and maybe even the 5s) distributor without modification. They ended up using the DIYPNP as a basis for their MSPNP that they officially sell for the 3s.

You should really solder your own board. Its not hard at all and kind of a fun project.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 9, 2013 - 1:55 AM

[thorshammer]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Thanks I toyed with the idea of swapping out the ecu and loom completely to match the engine as a exercise in curiosity but maybe no. I have a line on some RX7 non turbo 460cc injectors high impedance at last bloody hard to find down here.

[Syaoran]

You can use the 98+ head too. You just gotta put all the electronics from yours into the newer engine. The crank angle sensor can be left unplugged into any ECU but installed onto the engine for later use with the megasquirt, yes.

Thanks I toyed with the idea of swapping out the ecu and loom completely to match the engine as a exercise in curiosity but maybe no. I have a line on some RX7 non turbo 460cc injectors high impedance at last bloody hard to find down here.

If you're gonna run Megasquirt, don't limit yourself to RX-7 Injectors. With it, you can run anything that fits.

Personally, I'd recommend these, which fit: "Miata" 550CC High Impedance Injectors

They use the same OEM plug and are the same length as the OEM injectors. They use a different nozzle for firing the fuel which is more efficient than the pintle-type RX-7 injector as an added bonus.

[Syaoran]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

[thorshammer]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

Im just going with what is suggested, personally I thought 460 was a little to big for what I needed. This seems like a better deal cause I would have had to have the others serviced as well and here that costs about $30 per unit

[Syaoran]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

Im just going with what is suggested, personally I thought 460 was a little to big for what I needed. This seems like a better deal cause I would have had to have the others serviced as well and here that costs about $30 per unit

The only reason why 460cc are suggested is because most people who turbocharged the 5S... scratch that, EVERYONE who turbocharged the 5S in the past went with a piggyback. They all can only scale the injectors so much, that if you were to get bigger than 460cc it would be a little difficult to tune the off-boost part of the map.

With a megasquirt, you input your injector size and you can scale them to whatever pulse width you prefer. Technically it'll behave like a stock car off-boost (leaner than stock, if you want, to save a lot of fuel), and it'll dump in the necessary fuel when on boost.

I personally recommend you get the 550cc and wait until the Megasquirt is installed. I'd rather run a large injector at 50% duty cycle than an injector that is just enough at 90% duty cycle.

[thorshammer]

If you insist on 460cc injectors, then get these instead: Miata 440cc Injectors

They've also got the same plug.

Im just going with what is suggested, personally I thought 460 was a little to big for what I needed. This seems like a better deal cause I would have had to have the others serviced as well and here that costs about $30 per unit

The only reason why 460cc are suggested is because most people who turbocharged the 5S... scratch that, EVERYONE who turbocharged the 5S in the past went with a piggyback. They all can only scale the injectors so much, that if you were to get bigger than 460cc it would be a little difficult to tune the off-boost part of the map.

With a megasquirt, you input your injector size and you can scale them to whatever pulse width you prefer. Technically it'll behave like a stock car off-boost (leaner than stock, if you want, to save a lot of fuel), and it'll dump in the necessary fuel when on boost.

I personally recommend you get the 550cc and wait until the Megasquirt is installed. I'd rather run a large injector at 50% duty cycle than an injector that is just enough at 90% duty cycle.

Are these what you had in mind. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-1989-92-RX-7...054&vxp=mtr
Think I owe you and a few others a beer or 3 if I ever get back to the States again

This post has been edited by thorshammer: Jul 10, 2013 - 12:37 AM

[Syaoran]

Are these what you had in mind. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mazda-1989-92-RX-7...054&vxp=mtr
Think I owe you and a few others a beer or 3 if I ever get back to the States again

The first ones I linked you are the ones I purchased and fit into my fuel rail and head, and are the exact same plugs as the OEM Denso injectors.

Haha that would be nice but I'm in Puerto Rico

[thorshammer]

Thanks for everybodys help and input but after adding it all up have decided that the cost of doing this properly is prohibitive. I lived in Texas for 6 months awhile back and the cost of stuff over there compared to here is like chalk and cheese. Its also unlikely I could get it engineered legal, when I was young dumb and full of cum that didnt matter so much but nowadays its a bit different. Thanks again all when I get it finished will post some pics in the unmodified section-cheers

[delusionz]

I didn't know the megasquirt interpolates values, i'm not sure if my ecu does that or not

but i do know that for example if boost references are 5psi apart... and say you had references -5, 0, 5, 10 etc, then optimal timing would be at those points, but 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 etc psi levels will have less than optimal timing

i'm betting if i had 50x50 over 20x20 i'd have more overall torque and smoother power, and my highboost where i run out of resolution would be alot more punchy

[lagos]

I didn't know the megasquirt interpolates values, i'm not sure if my ecu does that or not

but i do know that for example if boost references are 5psi apart... and say you had references -5, 0, 5, 10 etc, then optimal timing would be at those points, but 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 etc psi levels will have less than optimal timing

i'm betting if i had 50x50 over 20x20 i'd have more overall torque and smoother power, and my highboost where i run out of resolution would be alot more punchy

They all interpolate the values.
The only real benefit to larger maps is that you can add different fuel or timing values in very odd cells, like 10 kpa to slightly smooth out the transition during throttle lifts. Or you can add specific cells for very high boost levels your car will never run.

If you look at your boost gauge, the transition from 0psi to 7psi to 10psi to 15psi happens almost instantly. So you only really need to tune the car for those values, with one extra row for something like 20psi, should you decide to up the boost to a crazy level. If you dial you boost to 13psi, its just going to use the interpolated value between 10 and 15, and since the changes in timing and fuel are linear, that value will be correct.

Personally I think 16x16 for both fuel and timing is perfect. No one is going to dyno tune their car at 1psi, 2psi, 3psi, 4psi, 5psi, 6psi, 7psi + and need some specific settings in each of those to warrant some 50x50 ignition table.

say you had references -5, 0, 5, 10 etc, then optimal timing would be at those points, but 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,9 etc psi levels will have less than optimal timing

Thats actually not true. The transition is linear. No professional tuner takes the time to tune each psi level, because 1) it would take a lot of dyno time and 2) the values they would find would be somewhere in between of the highest and lowest cell they already tuned for.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jul 27, 2013 - 1:06 PM

[delusionz]

my st205/powerfc was tuned with small increments

my dyno tune was from 9am to 4pm with half an hour lunch break to cool down the car

finished off with a 15 minute road tune and i completed the rest

my map is fully in increments of 10kpa from vacuum to 40kpa over atmo (140), then jumps to to increments of 30-40kpa up to a total of 2bar over atmo (300kpa)

its very nice and smooth to drive in the high-res zones, but on highboost im certain i can have more torque as my ignition timing falls by 3-4 degrees per row

IF it is indeed interpolated, then yeah none of this matters