Is it worth it? somethin to ponder about..., ....small HP gain from mods Options

[No0bOne]

Seriously, do you think it's worth the 5-10hp gain from an intake or exhaust etc...that costs about 300-500$++? I'd say do other things on the car before deciding on adding some performance parts for it such as dropping it etc etc...Rather save up and turbo that baby with an engine built for it! Than you'll be seeing huge power gains. right...?

This post has been edited by No0bOne: Jan 26, 2003 - 4:36 AM

[StinkyFatPig]

you would get more than 5-10 Hp out of an exhaust and intake.. a full exhaust with header and a decent intake would probably get you closer to 30 HP.. well worth it i thing..

aswell, droping a turbo into an NA motor without any mods can be harmfull.. you would probably blow your motor shortly after.. need lower the compresion first off.. and Im sure the pistons and rods wouldnt take much more than like 200-250 HP ish.. I dont really know alot about these motor yet though...

I watched a local guy blow 2 civic motors because he bolted on a large greddy turbo on to a fully stock system...

This post has been edited by StinkyFatPig: Jan 26, 2003 - 3:39 AM

[Benevolence]

Im not the brightest person but 30 hp does seem a little steep, more like 20 tops (my estimate) and also turboing your motor doesnt require too much internal work if you just run it at around 5 psi.

[StinkyFatPig]

yeah i say 30 tops.. I still think it would be close.. when you have a good high flow cat and muffler and a nice intake a header makes a huge difference.. But then again.. Im working off average because i dont have any exp with this motor..

and for running 5psi boost... is it really worth a turbo in that case? thats not alot of boost..

to be honest, alot of my thoughts on a turbo in this situation are just personal believes.. I hate to use this word but when people put on aftermarket turbos on a car that has nothing else done to it just seems kinda "ricey".. almost just for show more than anything.. thats like sticking an NX kit in a stock civic.. sure it will give more power but it just doesnt seem right..

so yeah, dont get me wrong.. turbos rock and there pretty much the best way to make power so im not saying that they aren’t good, or them themselves are "ricey" just in this kind of situation..


Edit:Spelling

This post has been edited by StinkyFatPig: Jan 26, 2003 - 3:34 AM

[Mage]

I don't think you would get more than 15 at the most, and that would be a generous estimate... 30 from just replacing some tubes?

[Drunken_Style]

Yeah the most you will get from intake, header, exhaust on this motor is about 15 whp.

[StinkyFatPig]

QUOTE (Drunken_Style @ Jan 26 2003, 08:56 AM)

Yeah the most you will get from intake, header, exhaust on this motor is about 15 whp.

wow, thats alittle dissapointing

[Tony-94]

I don't reckon it's worth it doing engine mods like the air intake etc just for the power increase alone. On a 173 Bhp GT, even if you get 20-30 bhp more it's not going to make a great difference to how the car feels.
And even if you did notice it, you would soon get used to it and be bored with the extra power.
BUT ...it is worth it if it makes the car better to drive, more responsive, and with an exhaust you also get better sound and it looks good too.

[StinkyFatPig]

QUOTE (Mage @ Jan 26 2003, 04:00 AM)

just replacing some tubes?

wow, do you even understand how an internal combustion engine works?

[forkee]

hey now....no fighting , no need to turn this into celica.net

[Mynzeyes]

QUOTE (StinkyFatPig @ Jan 26 2003, 12:37 PM)

QUOTE (Mage @ Jan 26 2003, 04:00 AM) just replacing some tubes? wow, do you even understand how an internal combustion engine works?

well, in simple terms, that's all you're doin when you do intake/header/exhaust. and sure it's worth it, i mean we all talk about engine swaps and all that, but how likely are we all to do that? not very. so why not mess w/ what you have while you have it. as fart as going for other things first, that's notta bad idea...i think the path i took was:
intake
lower + exhaust at same time
wings west spoiler
header
JDM headlights
there was more, but they were just little things...not sig. enough to count.
so i mean, you just take it day to day, and depending on the money you have, you get what you can get at the time being.
-John-

[Guest_Jason_*]

I really don't want to dump 2500$ of performance add-ons to my car to feel another 30-50wHP. I can take that money and do the swap I was suppose to do already and get that 225wHP mark for the same money. Sadly, there was a reason I had to cancel my Swap, not for financial reasons or anything along those lines, it was something more along the lines I almost got a brand new car, but I decided not too. Now that i'm keeping the Celica, I had to reschedule the Swap with my mechanic since he already filled my spot in, and its not targeted till around beginning of August which is pretty far from now. Since I know i'm going to Swap, i'm not going to put anything on my bare ST 7A-FE besides a CAI for the most part, just to put something under the hood.

Like John says, work with what you got while you have it. All that money I had for the swap, I had it spare now since the Swap was cancelled. I'm not going to put it to my engine for the Swap reason, so I put it into a Sound System and my 18" Gunmetal Rims. Probably for the next 3-or so months (since the swap is 6-7 Months away), i'm going to put my money to my Altezza Carbon RSX Taillight Conversion, VIS Body Kit and Sport Sideskirts, and my Gunmetal Silver paint Job.

When dealing with a car, its all about financial planning!

[Guest_Matthew_*]

QUOTE (StinkyFatPig @ Jan 26 2003, 01:32 AM)

yeah i say 30 tops.. I still think it would be close.. when you have a good high flow cat and muffler and a nice intake a header makes a huge difference.. But then again.. Im working off average because i dont have any exp with this motor.. and for running 5psi boost... is it really worth a turbo in that case? thats not alot of boost.. to be honest, alot of my thoughts on a turbo in this situation are just personal believes.. I hate to use this word but when people put on aftermarket turbos on a car that has nothing else done to it just seems kinda "ricey".. almost just for show more than anything.. thats like sticking an NX kit in a stock civic.. sure it will give more power but it just doesnt seem right.. so yeah, dont get me wrong.. turbos rock and there pretty much the best way to make power so im not saying that they aren’t good, or them themselves are "ricey" just in this kind of situation.. Edit:Spelling

If you take a look at the burien toyota website they say that with their turbo kit for the 5S-FE that they ran it about 7 psi and got it around 190 or so. That was in a 91 5S. Obviously we have better engines like bigger throttle body's, injectors, and other internal engine parts. And I bet that a 6G celica probably has less mileage and wear than the 91 celica. So what I am trying to say here is that 7 psi (which isn't that much boost) will probably give you 200hp on a 6G. They say that you can run about 14 psi safely with prooper engine tuning. Like an intercooler, bigger injectors, etc. You can get a stock supra intercooler off of ebay for really cheap. And you can get new injectors from a mr2 for like $100 off of ebay too. Then add an exhaust to that and you will see 15-20hp gains from the exhaust alone. If nobody believes me ask neverstop or somebody else that has a turboed engine then added exhaust. That's all. But if you are broke then make you own Cold Air Intake. You can buy the piping and filter for less than the injen intake costs.


Matt

[Mage]

QUOTE (StinkyFatPig @ Jan 26 2003, 11:37 AM)

QUOTE (Mage @ Jan 26 2003, 04:00 AM) just replacing some tubes? wow, do you even understand how an internal combustion engine works?

Excuse me, I may not be an expert, but at least I know what I'm talking about. 30 WHP from just decreasing air resistence to the throttle body and providing better flow through the exhaust? Only a honda riceboy would come up with those figures. Please point out to me where I was wrong when I said all you would be doing is replacing tubes, on an economy engine none the less. I believe you forgot to mention iridium spark plugs that will add another +10 HP


I honestly don't see the point of spending upwards of $500-1000 just to make an economy car marginally faster. Doing suspension mods and turbocharging, or doing a a swap, would be more practical in my opinion, and would dwarf whatever gains you may get with those simple mods. If you don't have the time or money, just wait, save up, plan, and invest it in something far better down the road.

[boosted_K2]

most of the performance gains from bolt ons is just in your head...

well following in johns footsteps my path was:
1. Greddy cat-back
2. head unit
3. wings west spoiler
4. alarm
5. gauges/interior
6. body kit
7. rims
8. TRD springs

just the essentials till swap.

[snadman]

OK.

OK...

Hmmm...have we all been hording over the testosterone buffet lately? lol...fighting over such piddly little things.

Intake - Only true horsepower gains you will get is from a CAI. Otherwsie not much to be expected, although on average Injen intakes (that includes all intakes that they make averaged out) get about a 15hp gain. I've looked at intakes they sell which show dyno testing information that are on cars similar to ours....and gains vary from 5-13hp. People, though, have gone the DIY way, and I'm sure they can get more if they make a CAI for their vehicle....such as the headlight idea or when the guy that only makes CAIs for ST's starts making them for GT's...I'm curious if anyone could raise a little money so that guy could take a stock ST to a dyno and test it with and without the CAI he makes for it.

Exhaust - Bigger than a 2.5" exhaust, doesn't do any good for stock engines....it actually decreases horspower. (This was in Sport Compact Car mag and it is what I can remember becaue I can't find the article. It may have even been 2") Now, if you have some kind of boost such as a supercharger or a turbo, then the bigger the better.

Also, our engines (I'm told by a guy that knows them inside and out...jhull over at toyotacelicas.com) can only take 250-300hp.

Now, there are other bolt on mods to get some good hosrepower gains. People fear that Nitrous will blow their engine to pieces, which is true if used incorrectly which it often is. If nitrous is fed into the manifold (via a dry nitrous kit) at WOT then our engines can take a 76 shot of it without harm. That's 76 extra horspower. Actually, even if you just wanted to play it safe, the Zex kit offers a 55 shot nozzle...which gives you a 21 hp range of safety.

Obviously, 5psi of boost, however, doesn't do crap for our enignes. The Burien kit produces almost 50 hp, then add Perfect Power's SMT6i piggyback computer system...which will make the most of our enignes. Now, with a turbo and the piggy back, exhuats becomes an issue.

My main point I'm trying to make is that everything's interconnected. To get the most of one thing, you may have to have something else. And then there's the whole situation that if you buy one thing, it may not do crap for you unless you buy something else. All in all, to see some good horsepower gains from our cars, you must be willing to spend some serious cash (at least for most of us it's serious). I'm thinking around 2,000 - 4,000 in just engine mods...and that would pay for either a 3sgte swap (the best idea) or to come up with your own turbo kit, as well an exhaust.

I already epxlained the ways of bringing about serious HP with the stock 5sfe....but it has its limits. Now if you have a nice sized budget, you'd probably prefer the 3sgte swap. But wait a minute for you say yes...what else do you need to get even more of that engine....

JE Engine products is a must. They offer new rods, pistons, and a bunch of other crap for the 3sgte engine. You also may want to look into a stand-alone fuel management system such as Perfect Power's PRS8 system. Now you want to get a newer and nicer intercooler to cool down the hot air your blowdryer's forcing into your engine. This will get you some nice horspower gains.


All of this is JUST looking at engine mods. What about racing fuel that has a higher octane? How much si that going to cost you? AND, what about your suspension and wheels/tires to keep your car sticking to the ground...as well as handle better?

In conlusion:
If you're just looking for some mods to make your ride bump and look like the best...then don't waste your time even considering turbo's....this also applies tot hose of you with a tiny budget. Spend your money on an exhaust to sound ricey, an intake to make it growl, and thne the rest on exterior mods to make it look nice as well as stereo stuff. BUT!!! If you're looking for some serious (and 100% safe which excludes nitrous because no matter what it's not 100% safe even if you take all the necessary precautions) horsepower, be ready to expand your car budget into a whole new dimension.

I hope my ranting has at least made some sense to some fo you. Later

This post has been edited by snadman: Jan 26, 2003 - 7:35 PM

[StinkyFatPig]

QUOTE (Mage @ Jan 26 2003, 03:21 PM)

QUOTE (StinkyFatPig @ Jan 26 2003, 11:37 AM) QUOTE (Mage @ Jan 26 2003, 04:00 AM) just replacing some tubes? wow, do you even understand how an internal combustion engine works? Only a honda riceboy would come up with those figures.

sorry man, didnt mean to hit a sweet spot.. up to 30 HP is a reasonable # for most cars..
as i said up to 30 HP.. I guess for this motor that is not the case..

and what’s the deal with the rice boy comment? if you ask me i think rice boy is bailing out on your motor and leaving it stock wile putting on wings, wheels and everything else that makes your car look a certain way but doesn’t perform that certain way..

[Guest_Matthew_*]

Hey, snadman good info.


But...I disagree with one thing. The Burien Toyota Turbo produces more than 50hp. All depending on the boost and components that you have like I said before. Other than that, nice reply and I am gonna go check out JE Engine products for my 3S-GTE.

[Mage]

I don't quite understand what you mean by "sweet spot," considering you got all upset and insulted my intelligence when I described the mods in layman's terms and the expected gains . And even if you only said "up to" 30, you also said "I still think it would be close," showing just how little you know about the 3sfe / 7afe engines. I don't think it's a normal figure for any car, actually, unless the stock system is ridiculously restrictive for no apparent reason, or it was turbocharged and had a restrictive exhaust.

And I said "rice boy" because that's exactly what the majority of them do; add the simplest bolt ons and think they doubled their horsepower, aside from the usual ugly body kits, wings, rims, paint graphics, etc. Just because I think "bailing out" from doing those paltry mods on our economy engines (though a quality exhaust could be used later, for a turbo or swap) is wiser doesn't mean I would spend the money on something else (gaudy exterior mods) just for the sake of spending the money.

This post has been edited by Mage: Jan 26, 2003 - 11:28 PM

[snadman]

No, that's using Northwest TRD's(the manufacturer of that kit) data. They did a dyno test and at 5 psi it increased 45.4 horsies. That's where I ogt my data. With a correctly tuned engine laong with the recommended not included options ofr that kit such as a turbo timer, electronic boost controller, intercooler, boost guage, and an AFR guage....then you can expect much more. BUT, since I don't have the kit and no other data is shown, we have no idea of knowing for sure how much unless someone gives actual data and not just an estimate. Thanks for the comments, and yeah...for a bunch of 3sgte mods and what-not contact jhull over at toyotacelicas.com. He's got awesome ideas and a kickin ride.

This post has been edited by snadman: Jan 26, 2003 - 11:39 PM

[FallenHero]

A bolt on turbo is far from rice.

[macavely]

if you want it and it makes you fell go about your ride i say yes it's every worth it. if you want real hp gains for you buck i would say no save up for and engine swap.