Remanufactured Head (ebay), Need you all experts advise Options

[msk59]

In the near future, I plan on redoing the valves etc on the head and came across some ebay sites that sells remanufactured heads. all work done with cams etc for under $300. Engine is 7A-FE and my car is 1996 Celica ST (AT-200) with manual transmission.

What is your experience with these heads and what advise you can give me that can help me decide.

Thank You
MSK

This post has been edited by msk59: Jun 13, 2014 - 8:09 AM

[Langing]

In the near future, I plan on redoing the valves etc on the head and came across some ebay sites that sells remanufactured heads. all work done with cams etc for under $300. Engine is 7A-FE and my car is 1996 Celica ST (AT-200) with manual transmission.

What is your experience with these heads and what advise you can give me that can help me decide.

Thank You
MSK

In the future I might do the same thing. That's very good news for me. . . 94 ST with 7A-FE engine with 5-speed manual transmission that has already churned out more than 300,000 miles. Can you tell me who is selling the inexpensive remanufactured heads for it?

[VavAlephVav]

you can find a used head with maybe 150k on it at a salvage yard for $135, then take it to the machine shop for cleaning, resurfacing, valve work.
the engine shop I talked to said for $45 they clean and test it for cracks and give you an estimate for whatever else it needs.

[Smaay]

with cams? yeah i highly doubt that. I dont know where they can make any money at that price.

[msk59]

here is the link.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-1-8-DOHC-7A...deb&vxp=mtr

I was surprised too because I was thinking it should be around $400 or more

[Special_Edy]

For that price or less you could have your original head completely rebuilt.

[msk59]

I have not checked the local shops here yet so I will do the comparison. the only benefit is that you can put back the engine the same day if the head is ready to go. However, in my case I need to replace the rings as well.

I have not checked the local shops here yet so I will do the comparison. the only benefit is that you can put back the engine the same day if the head is ready to go. However, in my case I need to replace the rings as well.

[VavAlephVav]

when I searched for 'cylinder heads' on google it comes back with several sites of places selling remanufactured heads, many were right around $275 to $300.
http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA_c27.htm

but the product description just says they've been cleaned, tested, resurfaced and "any worn parts replaced". to me that doen't necessarily mean they've replaced
every working part, just the ones that absolutely had to be replaced. which to me is the same thing you'd get if you took a head to the machine shop yourself.
as long as you find a machine shop that you can trust and does good work they will test it and give you a good evaluation on what needs to be done.
the salvage yard I called said they guarantee it against cracks, and the core charge is only $15.
now if the Celica is not your Daily Driver you could have it down for a while and take the head you've got in and do the same thing, but you'll have to wait on the machine shop, and what if they come back and tell you
the head is cracked anyway?

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jun 15, 2014 - 7:29 PM

[Special_Edy]

when I searched for 'cylinder heads' on google it comes back with several sites of places selling remanufactured heads, many were right around $275 to $300.
http://www.shop.headsonly.com/TOYOTA_c27.htm

but the product description just says they've been cleaned, tested, resurfaced and "any worn parts replaced". to me that doen't necessarily mean they've replaced
every working part, just the ones that absolutely had to be replaced. which to me is the same thing you'd get if you took a head to the machine shop yourself.
as long as you find a machine shop that you can trust and does good work they will test it and give you a good evaluation on what needs to be done.
the salvage yard I called said they guarantee it against cracks, and the core charge is only $15.
now if the Celica is not your Daily Driver you could have it down for a while and take the head you've got in and do the same thing, but you'll have to wait on the machine shop, and what if they come back and tell you
the head is cracked anyway?

At least you get a warranty at a machine shop. If the head was cracked it would be obvious since the engine is running atm. Way more of a crap shoot buying something that didnt come off of a verifiably running engine.

If it costs 300 to do the work, then what level of work are you getting if they sell you the head and all the work for under 300? You think they are giving you free/discounted service?

[msk59]

Special Edy: You make a very good point in terms of how much effort/work has gone into preparing that head if they are selling it for 280 or 300. Obviously, they are charging for cleanup only.

Right now, besides the oil consumption, there are no other symptoms such as running or idling rough or anything. Runs fine, pulls in each gear and when I shift, it puffs smoke. My next step is to get the compression test and the leak-down test done to clearly show me where the problem might be. I have most of the tools to pull the head or the entire engine. Not sure which route i will go. The biggest concern I have is that I don't know the tricks of the trade etc. that help do the job correct the first time. For example, I read on Toyota Nation, one guy put the head gasket backwards (since the gasket is symmetrical) and after putting all of it together, he realized it and had to redo it.

Thus far, I have done one soak treatment. I have not seen much improvement so I will do another one with MMA instead of Seafoam. This may not cure the engine completely, I know that, but at lease it will cleanup the majority of the sludge/carbon-build before the tear down.

I would need help as I am counting on you all experts out there ;-)

Thank You in advance.

[VavAlephVav]

This is the same boat I'm in. I could manage to do the head, but lack the experience to do it right the first time. I know a guy at a local shop who I trust and will do the labor for $500, when it pays 8hours so i'd rather let him do it.
But if I get another head and have it worked on first I won't have to leave it with him for several days.
The salvage yard has heads with only 125k and if it turns out to be bad I'm only out the $45 for the machine shop testing it. And maybe later I can have the other head tested and sell it for maybe $75.
I think with most reman shops they keep your old core for only $15 and rebuilt it, and that is how they manage to make money on the rebuild.
So $500 for labor, $140 for the head, maybe $150 for the machine shop, and another $150 for a Cometic head kit. This way I'm spreading out the head and work on it over the summer and ill have enough for the labor in the fall.

[VavAlephVav]

I should add that in the past I thought I was better off making a car payment, and bought a dodge neon. And I was still working on it before it was even paid off.
The head gasket busted when it was still under warranty and I took it to Chrysler, and they slapped a head gasket on it, without resurfacing the head. TWICE while it was under warranty they
Replaced the head gasket and did no work to the head. And it was forever one problem after another. The third time I took it to a shop an that retard damaged the wirelimb when he did the job and
Caused an intermittent short to the fuel pump which took us months to figure out.
Lets just say I know that when you're dealing with an aluminum head do the whole Job and don't just half-ass it.

[msk59]

Yes that is my worry too. The tricks of the trade and the 'short cuts' they used is the key. I will pull the head myself and will have a knowledgeable buddy with me who will help me. I also want to do the piston re-ring. That would be a challange laying on the ground and unbolting it from underneath.

The other option would be to pull the engine out of the car along with transmission and replace the clutch as well. It definetly involves additional work but the benefits are many as well.

[Langing]

Yes that is my worry too. The tricks of the trade and the 'short cuts' they used is the key. I will pull the head myself and will have a knowledgeable buddy with me who will help me. I also want to do the piston re-ring. That would be a challange laying on the ground and unbolting it from underneath.

The other option would be to pull the engine out of the car along with transmission and replace the clutch as well. It definetly involves additional work but the benefits are many as well.

Please excuse my long-winded reply. You don't have to read it, but I needed to sort things out for myself after reading all the comments in this thread. I AM very interested in your question because I am facing it myself.

This thread began by asking "What is your experience with these heads and what advise you can give me that can help me decide." Two links were provided to similar sources to show examples of places that sell rebuilt heads at a price-point of approximately $300.

Those sources claim to sell heads for all vehicle types, trying to keep an inventory where anyone could get immediate satisfaction when they want any particular head: engine heads in which they claim they have replaced all worn parts; heads which have been resurfaced; heads which have worn valves replaced and the valve seats all ground properly; heads which are cleaned up and tested for cracks; heads which are guaranteed for 12 months. They can sell their rebuilt heads for less than $300 because they rebuild so many thousands of heads each year from all kinds of motors (Volume) and you have to send your current head back to them when you install theirs as part of the deal (Recycling), and, they pay the return shipping! Further, they say they do not care what condition your head is in when it gets back to them, so long as all of its parts are shipped to them.

I don't know enough about overhauling an engine to even begin to offer wise counsel on this matter, however, ISTM that this approach ought to actually be better than equivalent to taking your own head down to a machine shop to get the same work done on it, or DIY. In both of these approaches a big problem is consistency, meaning quality, another is going to be cost. Whereas these big rebuilders are doing it all day long every day they are in business, and must have every resource and all the information they could ever need at their fingertips, and because of volume can buy replacement parts (much cheaper) in quantity, a local machine shop or DIY (even with a 'good buddy who really knows his stuff") are one-offers. They may have done it before, but it isn't something they do every day. Therefore you really do not know what the level of quality you are going to get. Also, you are purchasing parts in small numbers and have to pay shipping on each part.

Of course, in the DIY case, if you are the least like me, when you are finally finished you know the job is done well. However, the parts of the job that require expensive machines and thus required you to farm them out, that sounds like the weakest link since you have no control over their quality. Its like the fellow who posted that he took his head back to the dealer more than once but they never resurfaced it, so it failed early. I don't trust dealer technicians, or most anybody to whom I might take my car to have something done on it because I have seen numerous instances of things they took short cuts in doing or not doing, and so on.

Also, of course, these rebuilders may have the same kinds of problems in their processes, or may use the cheapest possible replacement parts, or any of a number of untrustworthy scenarios one could come up with. However, you have an economic system helping you make sure you get a quality product from people like this because their reputation is all they have, and if someone posts negative remarks about their head work, they would soon enough feel the pain in their profits.

All that being said, using one of the rebuilders is much like removing your head, having it overhauled by a local machine shop or by you and an expert buddy, and then replacing the rebuilt head back onto the engine. That has to mean "downtime" for your vehicle, and it it were I doing the work with whatever help I could find, that "downtime" would be considerable. For you it might be rather short. But there would be some amount of downtime. It's not the same if you purchase a rebuilt head for $300 and simply change it out, like you would a starter motor, and then you just pack up and send your old head back to them, using part of the $300. That's the case of minimal work, minimal cost!

It seems a decision has been made to savor the experience of DIY, probably for the depth of knowledge and sheer joy doing so would bring, rather than buying a rebuilt head, but was that decision based on any related experiences with remanufactured heads? I'm just asking. That decision to DIY isn't BAD because it wasn't based on reliable information, but being clear eyed about decisions you make is important because you are deciding on the expenditure of a lot of time and energy.

I cannot help but feel that this is a 'no-brainer' of a decision if ONLY concerned about cost, quality, and time. And despite my own basic instinct to want to DIM, probably for the same reasons as you have, let me make a last effort to test your resolve by pasting what one of those rebuilders said in their advert (FYI: I have no financial interest in any of these companies):


TOYOTA CELICA 7AFE

PHOTO OF 7AFE HEAD


This listing is for a rebuilt Toyota Celica 7AFE cylinder head for the years 1993-1997. For other models see our store listings. This head is completely rebuilt. It has been pressure checked for cracks and resurfaced. Guides and seats have been replaced as needed. New VITON valve stem seals have been installed. All heads are given a three angle valve job. All valves have been vacuum checked to ensure proper sealing.

A LIKE CORE HEAD IS REQUIRED IN EXCHANGE.

ABOUT US

Since 1968, Cylinder Heads International has been selling quality rebuilt cylinder heads. By serving our customers better than our competitors, CHI has grown into one of the largest cylinder head rebuilders in the nation. Our heads are installed by shops nationwide and are the choice of many engine rebuilders. Our comprehensive inventory includes heads for domestic or import models and carry a 12-month unlimited mileage guarantee.

WE MAKE IT SIMPLE

We make it easy for you. Your head will arrive in our special foam lined box. Once your new head is installed all you have to do is put your old one in the box and tape it up, then apply the included prepaid UPS sticker to the box. You may then give the box to any UPS driver you may see, or take the box to any UPS pickup point, there will be no charge to you to complete the transaction and return your old head to us.

YOUR OLD HEAD

We will accept your old cylinder head no matter what is wrong with it as long as it includes all the parts that our head came with. You will never be charged extra because your old head is damaged. Cracked head? OK! Bent valves? OK! Head taken apart? OK! (as long as you put all of the parts in the box). We have no up-front core charge. Our comprehensive inventory includes heads for domestic or import models and a 12-month unlimited mileage guarantee.

HEADSONLY, also known as Cylinder Heads International has thousands of rebuilt cylinder heads in stock. We strive to have the heads people need when they need them. Due to the fact that we sell heads Nationwide to professional installers, garages, dealerships and engine rebuilders, occasionally we may be temporarily out of stock on certain hard to find or high demand items. This is rare. In this case we will offer to rebuild your head, or a full refund, your choice.

[msk59]

Langing. I did read the entire post, a few times in fact. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

The original purpose of my post was to gain more information about the rebuilt heads and to see if anyone has any good or bad experience with these heads. that is all.

[Langing]

Langing. I did read the entire post, a few times in fact. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

The original purpose of my post was to gain more information about the rebuilt heads and to see if anyone has any good or bad experience with these heads. that is all.

Thanks for verifying my understanding, and thanks for reading “gone with the wind.”


Please understand that my intention was not to attempt to change your mind. In fact, I am jealous of the experience you are going to gain in your undertaking, and I wish you the best as you are setting out on that journey to DIY manhood.


It would still be so nice if someone who had actually incorporated one of those $300 heads in their Celica could speak to us, based on having had that experience, to things like the quality of those suppliers, etc. Your initial question piqued my interest and it still isn’t satisfied.

[msk59]

LOL. I never read 'Gone with the wind' nor did I saw the movie. that is bad, I know!



Thank You for your thoughts.

This post has been edited by msk59: Jun 17, 2014 - 7:57 AM

[VavAlephVav]

the first book I ever read was the uncut version of The Stand.

I totally agree, and rather than try and do too much diy I'd rather give my money to local people who do good work, the shop that will do the labor are people I trust and the machine shop has been building racing engines for people since the '70s.
I want people like this to stay in business so I take them my money. and I'm still coming out way less than if I took it to the dealer and got hosed.

This post has been edited by VavAlephVav: Jun 17, 2014 - 8:45 AM

[Langing]

the first book I ever read was the uncut version of The Stand.

I totally agree, and rather than try and do too much diy I'd rather give my money to local people who do good work, the shop that will do the labor are people I trust and the machine shop has been building racing engines for people since the '70s.
I want people like this to stay in business so I take them my money. and I'm still coming out way less than if I took it to the dealer and got hosed.

Never read The Stand, but have read other Stephen King novels. Great writer. When I think of The Stand, I hear the word "tome."

I applaud your sentiment and wholeheartedly agree with your approach. Wish I knew of a shop nearby that I could trust the way you trust yours. I also think it is important to help businesses that good stay alive and thrive.

On the other hand, looking at this question purely in dollars and cents terms, stripping away our better values and ideals, none of these shops can compete with mass produced rebuilt heads, so when someone is on a strict budget or happens to be hard up for cash and cannot afford to act 'generously' they would most likely save money by using a big remanufacturer. The truth of this seems self-evident to me.

But, that isn't all that needs to be known about them. I'd surely like to know what their quality standards are, and if I put one in my car, would it last as long as the first engine did. That's really important to me because if I put one in at $300, and it only lasted, say 50,000 miles, then the cost based decision reverts to favoring a local shop, not to mention the hassle of multiple replacements done at times that are not of your choosing.

[VavAlephVav]

Well, we have this little tire shop and the old guy that runs the place has been there for a long time, so I went down and asked him who around here I can trust.
I told him I wasn't afraid to pay a regular rate, but who is Not going to FuKK me?
And he told me who I should go and see, and I had them put a motor in an Astro van, which was like a 12 hour job where you had to drop the Subframe, and he did the labor for $650 and everything worked great.

Ive also considered changing out the whole motor as its 8 hours labor for the head and only 10 for the whole motor. There was a guy on the FB group selling a rebuilt 5sfe for $600 just a couple weeks ago.