Custom 5SFE Intake Manifold Project Options

[doory100]

Got this off a 97 3sfe rav4. I'm going to customize a intake manifold body for it at my work(custom sheet metal shop). this is the starting process should look close to a beams intake when in done. Ill be using 0.100" 5052 aluminum for the body with a machined 0.250" T6 aluminum flange. I will most likely make 2 when i take the intake form my 95 GT off. So I'll have one for sale then. Any thoughts??

This post has been edited by doory100: Oct 6, 2014 - 7:40 PM

[ILoveMySilly97]

nice. Should use a 1mzfe dual throttle body for this.

[doory100]

nice. Should use a 1mzfe dual throttle body for this.

what car would that be off ?? that would be sick!! Would it work??


This post has been edited by doory100: Oct 6, 2014 - 7:40 PM

[doory100]

nice. Should use a 1mzfe dual throttle body for this.

what car would that be off ?? that would be sick!! Would it work??

After reading this article on toyotanation.com I will be incorperating the 1MZ-FE throttle body and flange into my project since its plug and play and are easily accesable at the kenny-u-pull lot in Ottawa. $15 im just going to hack off the flange and TB with a saw in one shot !! (if I can)
here is the link if anyone is interested:
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/103-3rd-...-1mz-fe-tb.html

[Syaoran]

The one youll have for sale, Im interested. I'd like the option of keeping it flangeless wiyh a spot to weld on a flange, so I can weld a TB of my choosing.

[doory100]

The one youll have for sale, Im interested. I'd like the option of keeping it flangeless wiyh a spot to weld on a flange, so I can weld a TB of my choosing.

what TB were you thinking of I might be interested? so far the 1zm-fe I know will work but I heard the mustang TB is a option.

[Syaoran]

The one youll have for sale, Im interested. I'd like the option of keeping it flangeless wiyh a spot to weld on a flange, so I can weld a TB of my choosing.

what TB were you thinking of I might be interested? so far the 1zm-fe I know will work but I heard the mustang TB is a option.

In my case I have a standalone ECU so anything that fits will work. The one I can find cheapest is the one I'd buy, in my case. Probably a VW VR6 TB or something like that, since I have a friend with a junkyard's worth of spare VW parts.

[kurt95gt]

Hell if your gonna go 1mz tb
maybe pick one up from a later model that had dual throttle bodys

[Syaoran]

I don't see the use of putting a dual TB on a 4cylinder engine lol & especially a 5s. I understand the purpose of it in the 1mz manifold, but that's a v6.

[doory100]

I found both and the dual TB looks like its going to be a mess to hook up plus wouldn't I need two throttle cables? One on the front and on on the back of the manifold? I haven't removed them yet so I'm not sure how they will work with my setup.

This post has been edited by doory100: Oct 15, 2014 - 5:36 PM

[mkernz22]

Its one cable actuator which connects internally to both throttle bodies. You will have to wire a WOT switch because the TPS is 3 wire vs 4 wire of the 5s.

[kurt95gt]

Pending your plans the dual tb setup might be more than you really need.
if your going to boost it tho might be worth while

[doory100]

It looks like i wont have room since im increasing the L W and H of the intake itself.

[Bitter]

You know just hacking a plenum on some runners isn't going to net awesome gains. You need to calculate the plenum volume for the targeted RPM and have runners of a tuned length to match, tuned to 2nd order harmonics if possible for the target RPM. That's why you see 30whp gains from an intake manifold on a 2ZZ or Honda's. Also because those heads have the potential to use the air being supplied, but just better tuned intake will help but probably not as dramatically as you'd hope. The stock 5S manifold is a 3rd order manifold I believe and tuned for low to mid engine speeds to provide torque, the head is also suited to this design. Don't try to fight the head, work with it. You can see a nice increase in torque with the right volume and runner length.

http://www.schmidtmotorworks.com/engine_designer.html Software like that can help make an initial design.
http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/engin...take-manifolds/ this outlines some of the design principles and their effects.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Oct 16, 2014 - 9:54 PM

[doory100]

Maybe your right but I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm just going to increase the size and angles of the intake. I got the idea from the racer x web site. The replenum manifold has what looks like the stock runners.
http://www.racerxfabrication.com/products/...ica/intake.html

This post has been edited by doory100: Oct 17, 2014 - 9:33 PM

[Bitter]

Well that's why you're experimenting, be interesting to see how it turns out. Worse case you loose power and it's back to the drawing board, you can't really break anything playing around with this. Obviously tuning after installation would be ideal to realize any gains to their fullest.

Just changing the plenum volume will have an impact, the 5S plenum is very small (and for good reason as outlined in the article).

[doory100]

Well that's why you're experimenting, be interesting to see how it turns out. Worse case you loose power and it's back to the drawing board, you can't really break anything playing around with this. Obviously tuning after installation would be ideal to realize any gains to their fullest.

Just changing the plenum volume will have an impact, the 5S plenum is very small (and for good reason as outlined in the article).

What article is that?

[Bitter]

the second link in my post with two links. the plenum volume is tiny to keep air velocity high at low RPM for best torque due to the head's low flow. a bigger plenum volume at low rpm with a low flowing head will cause a loss in power since the air will be stagnant and have to be literally sucked into the engine (meaning you end up with less air in the cylinder) instead of the ideal situation where air is a constantly moving column and the timing of the movement of the column of air hitting the valve has the valve opening before it rebounds off and looses it's energy and becomes a stationary mass of air. If you blow down a long pipe you can feel more air being pulled into pipe after your initial 'pulse' is sent down it, the whole column of air is now moving, the intake and runners do a similar think and that's the driving force behind exhaust scavenging. Those intakes on that racerx page are for forced induction which has less of an issue with intake tuning since the air being forced into the engine, it doesn't matter if you have the wrong plenum volume or runner length once the turbo is making boost, it's more just that all the cylinders are seeing an equal amount of air.

I'm willing to bet just putting a bigger plenum on the stock manifold runners will get you a loss in low RPM torque and a very very slight gain at higher RPM, but not enough to offset the loss. I'd love to see a back to back series of dyno's to compare and confirm my theory.

[doory100]

mrturrari did a good intake for his MR2 on mr2oc.com And I got way more eqipment at my disposal, like a 35 ton 20 turrent NC Stripit punch press (witch I run) fully auomated CAD SMP software. 8' Amada 50 ton NC break press (witch i can also run), A kick ass tig welder. And access to powder coating.
I was thinking of doing the mandrel bent runners with velocity stacks but I'm cheap and can't find any where that does mandrel pipe bending but I haven't looked all that hard.. Cars in the garage till spring so I'll have plenty of time to do the intake. Just picked up the 1z V6 TB today for $20

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=357056

This post has been edited by doory100: Oct 18, 2014 - 7:06 PM

[Bitter]

Is the engine all stock?

[doory100]

I have to do the head gasket and when I'm in there I am shaving the head, a port polish, apexi neo AFR, wideband O2 sensor and delta cams. The car currently has a CAI and 4-1 ebay headers plus a hollow cat and a DC sport muffler.

out of curiosity what would the affect of having a TB on either end of the intake Manifold have?

[Bitter]

Having one TB at each end or just switching ends? Switching ends wouldn't really have any affect I'm aware of, I'm not sure about having one at each end with one plenum, you'd probably want to have the plenum split in the middle to make effectively two tuned intakes. You'd get more even air distribution I'd imagine.

With those mods, yes a custom built intake will make a difference, just look up some of the math involved and figure the right plenum volume, runner volume, and runner length to hopefully hit your target RPM. I was assuming this was going on a bone stock 5S, my bad.

[doory100]

Splitting them up would be pretty sick! Sky's the limit...

[Bitter]

I've even seen race engines with unequal length velocity stacks (ITB) to spread out the engine's power peak, assuming the exhaust runners are all equal length. Velocity stacks need to be matched to the cylinder exhaust runner length if the exhaust runners are not all equal length. It's not as simple as it all sounds, you can get quite nit picky technical and doing so usually nets the best power gains.

[doory100]

I just want better gains I'm not out to win a tittle or anything.

[Bitter]

Best gains come from proper design.

[doory100]

Obviously.

[Bitter]

Yes, so no sense just hacking some stuff together and spending all the time to make it and get it leak free to find out you screwed up the plenum volume or runner length or both and have actually lost power. The stock 5S runners are very narrow, I know it's a pain but see about getting some mandrel bent aluminum tube or something and making fatter runners, ideally you want them to taper to the cylinders to compress the air column some so it 'pops' into the chamber when the valve opens and has a good turbulence and swirl to mix the A/F thoroughly for complete combustion and knock resistance.




Funny thing is, I don't even do this stuff or build this stuff, I've just learned this reading way too much and researching about things that interest me. If you do this right you can bolt on some nice gains with the rest of the porting and cams and see some good flow numbers. Remember to leave about a 1mm anti reversion lip on the bottom of the exhaust ports.

Anti-reversion Headers

In our page on cylinder head porting, Henry (aka Double H) explains that the primary pipes in the exhaust manifold should at match the exhaust port diameter on the cylinder head; but to reduce reversion, a primary pipe that is slightly larger than the exhaust port is better. Reversion is the flow of exhaust gasses back into the combustion chamber when the downward movement of the piston creates a vacuum in the cylinder. As we mentioned in engine tuning basics, the exhaust valves are still open when the intake stroke begins. This presents the potential for exhaust gasses to be drawn back into the combustion chamber when the piston moves down the cylinder. Any exhaust gases that are drawn into the combustion chamber will displace the air/fuel mixture being drawn in through the intakes valves and will increase the temperature in the combustion chamber, thus reducing the volumetric efficiency of the engine, as well as engine power. Preventing reversion will reduce the contamination of the air/fuel mixture by the spent exhaust gasses and will improve the efficiency of the engine. An anti-reversion header or AR header that is specifically designed to inhibit reversion would be your best choice. Anti-reversion headers have a built-in lip that restricts exhaust gas flow back into the combustion chamber.

http://www.custom-car.us/exhaust/header.aspx quick dirty explanation of things.

[doory100]

yes but isn't the the intake flange the same width as the intake ports on the head?

[Bitter]

The ports in the head and the ports on the manifold probably match somewhat closely on the intake, but you may be surprised when you lay the gasket over both to see that the metal overlaps the gasket noticeably. I port matched the exhaust manifold on my 2ZZ to the exhaust gasket which left an anti-reversion lip all the way around the port on the head (I didn't touch the head). The 2ZZ in stock trim is a fairly healthy breather, even without anything gasket matched. The 5S is likely similar on the intake and exhaust. My 7A exhaust ports eclipsed the gasket a fair amount as well...easier to cast things a little small I guess.

If you're hogging out the ports in the head, go as big as the gasket openings then port the runners to match, however cast runners like that are very rough inside and there are often 'nodules' of aluminum sticking up and areas of severe roughness that hurt flow more than you think. You should get a flexible shaft and some flap wheels and get up in there and smooth it and hog it out some.

[doory100]

Thats not a bad idea. I don't plan on changing the intake runners but i will polish them from the inside. Here is a picture of the TB I picked up a few weeks ago.
It's off a V6 camry. I cleaned it up a bit. Its quite bigger than the 5sfe TB about 10mm

[doory100]

Finally starting the intake. Got the runner cutouts right. Formed the two sides. Now to weld on the runners and close off the intake and make a TB flange!

[Syaoran]

How much plenum volume are you going to have/chose to have?

[doory100]

I think I'm changeling the design. What's the formula for calculating plenum volume?
It's shouldn't be bigger 1.5 times than displacement. Right?

[Bitter]

It depends.

http://www.fsae.com/forums/showthread.php?...er-Calculations

This touches on some of the complexities, runner length/diameter/taper as well as cam specs, play a role in plenum volume.

This simplifies it some.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1142

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/plenu...-design.376326/
This has some good general design tips.

This post has been edited by Bitter: Jan 31, 2015 - 6:55 PM

[doory100]

Here is the new design?

This is kind of what it will look like when it's finnished.

[Bitter]

Looking good, the first one you posted looked way too large.

[doory100]

I have decided to use custom runners instead of the hacked manifold... Just got the pipe bent last week.. putting some finishing touches on the runners..

using the flateners and the Amada press break to oval out the ends of the 2" pipe to match up with the flange..









This is a piece of pipe that broke when they were bending it.. Im using it for a setup piece and I'm glad I have it now.. I might have to bore out the flange a bit. what do you think?? any input will be appreciated.


I made some velocity stacks at work.. well kind of.. Ill post some picks later of the stacks once there finished.. I would like some input on the stacks once there up.

[Bitter]

It's looking much better, sorry I can't offer any actual insight other than 'that looks like it'll work better' since I'm not well versed in the intricacies of manifold design but know enough to look at an engine and manifold and have a fairly good idea what may not work well.

[doory100]

Here is a couple photos of the velocity stacks (kind of) I made. I'm getting a new manifold flange made of 0.500 t6 with bigger ports. Should be finished in a week or so.

[Bitter]

The mouths look awfully flat.

[doory100]

I made them myself. I think there pretty good and they will be better than a straight pipe.

[Bitter]

Yes, just the transition from bell to pipe is pretty sharp, which the point of the mouth is to smooth that out. You can make them a little bigger and just notch them where they run into each other or vary the heights slightly.

[doory100]

I'm at the point where I really just need to get this finished. I'm sure it's not going to make a massive difference.

[Bitter]

Cool, there's always V2, V3, etc to get things perfect. I'll be excited to see the outcome and results! It's always interesting to see these projects, don't take my criticisms as all negative. I'm just trying to lend a little advice from what I know so that the project has a more favorable outcome and maybe inspires more creativity with these cars. Even though I don't own one, it doesn't mean I don't like them. I'd have a V6 GT in my garage if I had the spare money and garage space. One guy who already has two cars though....

[doory100]

Just got my cams back from delta camshaft. They look OK. I've never had cams reground before. Is it normal for the cams to look like they do?

[Bitter]

What is it you're worried about with the cams?

[doory100]

The lobes. Is it OK for the them to have chips at the sides and bottoms of the hard welds? Or is that normal in a regrinded cam?

[Bitter]

Are the followers going to make contact with any sharp edges? If they're not then it should be fine.

[doory100]

Followers? I'm sure they know what there doing at delta camshaft. It will be fine.

[Bitter]

Shims, whatever makes contact with the lobes (follows the lobes). You can always ask Smaay, he'd know.

[doory100]

What lubricant should I use to break in my cams? I was going to get new springs and valves. Should I spend the money or use my old springs and valves? I might just replace the exhaust valves, mine are pretty dirty.
exhaust valves

Intake valve

[Bitter]

Head is off the car right? Pull the exhaust valves and clean them up on a wire wheel then check them.

[doory100]

bought new valves for $100 CAD for all 16 of them!! I would have saved them if they cost more.
here is a picture of the ports and head all polished up and I also painted the front and two sides to match the valve cover. I also painted the V6 Camry TB red(its in the background).
The ports look rough but there not clean in the picture. I also lapped the valves but im having a hard time putting the springs back in. Any thoughts on that?





This post has been edited by doory100: Apr 23, 2015 - 9:16 PM

[doory100]

Finally got a machine to cut my intake flange! LOL

[Bitter]

Did you press in new guides too?

[doory100]

no. but I put in new stem seals. Should I? are they hard to do? they look like there casted right into the head

This post has been edited by doory100: Apr 26, 2015 - 6:56 AM

[Bitter]

You should at least check them for straightness and size, which requires a special tool set which probably costs more than the guides do.

Yes, I'd replace them if you're replacing the valves and seals and the head is off. You're also going to need to re-shim all the lifters to spec too, that's a fun process. You might want to PM Smaay about clearance specs, my understanding is you want them at the loose end of the spec so they don't get too tight when the engine is hot.

[doory100]

nah I think there ok Ill let that one slide. Im putting in all new lifters. do i still need to shim them. I thought you just have to tighten the lash?

This post has been edited by doory100: Apr 26, 2015 - 6:24 PM

[Bitter]

new valves will have new clearances and need to be adjusted, as will new lifters. some stems may need to be ground as well.

[doory100]

Finally getting the intake welded together. starting to look good!!

the velocity stacks I made don't look to bad...

[doory100]

I have run into a problem. My intake fits but the plenum is right against the fire wall. I have not welded the plenum onto the intake just yet. Im wondering how far from the fire wall it needs to be? Im about 2 days from scrapping the whole intake project!!

This post has been edited by doory100: May 21, 2015 - 8:09 PM

[Bitter]

Depends how solid your mounts are. Get a big wad of Playdo or similar modeling clay and put a big wad on the back of the intake manifold touching the firewall with some cardboard under it (so it won't fall out) and go for a spirited drive, see how much smoosh there is and then add 20-30% to that figure and you should have a distance.

[rdyzz]

Not sure how close yours is but this was the 3sge in my corolla, I had a rear solid poly mount and a front rubber filled poly mount. It never hit. Also you can maybe put a stopper on your motor mount if you don't want to damage the manifold or maybe change the radius slightly.

[doory100]

Here is my new clearance.

I'm modifying the intake and I need some thoughts
Is this to big or should I go with this ?

[Bitter]

Do some math on plenum volume, runner length, and the RPM you want peak power to be around.

[doory100]

Went with a new plenum!! Looks awesome!

[doory100]

Does it matter where the breather spout is located? Example: after or before the TB?

[rdyzz]

Kinda cause one provides just filtered air while the other provides vacuum.

[doory100]

I have found a use for it

[doory100]

[Nial]

I have been looking at a similar thing for my project build, but was thinking about a side feed centre feed inlet manifold.......if that makes sense, a bit like the one in this picture, but with the inlet part veering off to the passenger side.



See if I can figure out a way of doing it......need to break out the calculator.

This post has been edited by Nial: Jun 14, 2015 - 2:23 PM

[doory100]

hopefully it will be painted by tomorrow

[doory100]

please delete this thread. the intake was a bust!!!

[richee3]

No need to delete it. How was the intake a bust? Let's keep this thread open and keep bouncing ideas around on how to improve the intake.

[doory100]

the pipe and the TB together were inches away from the distributor. It was not on the car and i forgot it was going to be there. plus it should have been closer and taller. I really wanted the 2.5" TB and the intake to work. I just dont have any time to go back to the drawing board.

[rdyzz]

I would still keep it in case you do have some time in the future. Its also nice to have something that only needs slight modification to have work.

[doory100]

Is this a waste of time or should I go for it? The runners look a bit to long! TB does not clear the firewall

[doory100]

Intake is done and ready to go in tomorrow... I hope!!
Going to repaint the intake body after the Celica stencil dries.

Using this weld to add pems for the bolts. Works incredibly well.



This post has been edited by doory100: Aug 18, 2015 - 8:47 PM

[doory100]

[Bitter]

Does it run?

[doory100]

Trying to figure out the vacuums hoses.. Huge cluster mess. Are there any write ups on the vacuums lined and where they go?

[Bitter]

Well for the engine to run you have...

Manifold vacuum:
MAP
Brake booster
Uh I think that's pretty much it to get it driving, emissions stuff can wait.

[doory100]

Thanks for the info it should help. But what do I do with the stuff that I don't connect? Just cap them off?

[Bitter]

For now yea, just get it up and running and see how it does. Evap and EGR can wait as they're not going to impact how it runs (technically EGR will but not in a negative way). I think there's a vacuum switch or air bypass for the power steering somewhere maybe and an AC idle up air bypass too, but I'm not 100%, those would be manifold vacuum as well I think. Should be OK without those, may notice an idle dip when the wheel is over hard turning tight or the AC kicks on.

[doory100]

Thanks for the info I appreciate it.

[doory100]

Made this out of stainless steel. For my afr guage. Pretty neat!







]

[Bitter]

Looks nice, pretty close fit too!