3rd Generation ST205 3SGTE Celica VS. 4th Generation ST215 3SGTE Caldi, Comparisons Options

[trdproven]

I was bored so I compiled this info together. I'm actually researching into this a bit. I wanted to get some info onto our own site, as its possible we might head into this movement as the mr2 homies are.

ST205 3rd Gen 3sgte

ST215 4th Gen 3sgte


3rd Generation ST205 3SGTE Celica VS. 4th Generation ST215 3SGTE Caldina
- 4th gen essentially needs only the motor, ECU, and everything that goes with the harness wiring while the 3rd gen pretty much needs the front clip or all the accessories complete
- 4th gen has a larger throttle body
- 4th gen uses ct15 vs 3rd gen ct20 turbo
- 4th gen uses a one-piece turbo/manifold vs 3rd gen but you can still get your own or make your own manifold and pick your own turbo
- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen but still fits same for all S family if 3rd can fit on 5s and 3rd can fit on 4th
- 4th gen different downpipe than the 3rd gen
- 4th gen Intercooler is Air to Air vice Air to Water on the 3rd Gen (Run FMIC for 4th gen unless you switch to air to water setup or create a Caldina style air scoop)
- Both 540cc/min injectors but 4th gen has top feed high impedance vs 3rd gen side feed low impedance
- 4th gen – quicker spooling turbo
- 4th gen has COP (Coil on Plug) while 3rd gen has distributor
- 4th Gen manifold is better with side feed while 3rd gen is almost a center feed
- Midpipe will need to be welded to connect downpipe and rest of exhaust – same for both gens
- S Family transmission or E153 transmission both fits keep the axles and shift cables based on the transmission you use. So you have to match your mounts to transmission as well.
Same Engine Mounts as GT, You can use a 3s flywheel, 3s pressure plate, and a 3s disc splined for 5s or just use the 5s disc.
- Radiator hoses stay the same, either use 5S or 3S
- 4th Gen now is getting cheaper and doable many shops like chico and prime have done many on celicas, mr2s, and even rav4s – more 4th gens are now popping up for sale
- Essentially and by assumption a 4th gen would provide a less beat up engine with low miles since it was mostly an automatic from Japan and newer, but that’s not guaranteed.
- 4th gen requires axle carrier bearing locating pins since the 2nd/3rd gens had them already pressed in but the 4th gen is missing them – get it from Primemr2 and press or tap it in
- 4th gen requires tach adapter. This device converts the tachometer signal from the Gen4 engine to be compatible with the existing tachometer
- Both still need the Supra TT fuel pump or Walbro 255
- 4th gen prior has mentioned internals are weaker such as the rods, but it was found that many of the internal part numbers are the same than 3rd gen.
- 4th gen cylinder walls are thicker than 3rd gen
- 4th gen runs a 9:0:1 compression ratio rather than the 8:5:1 of the 3rd gen
- External drive belts should be the same I believe
- 5S 2.2L PS and AC is possible to mount on to the 4th gen same as 3rd gen
- Head gaskets may be different I’m not sure but I see them as two different part numbers
- Question lies: Where do you get replacement parts for the ST215? It’s difficult to say at this point where a good source is at but with the 4th gen movement some used parts may soon become move available. I’m starting to see some parts being sold on ebay and other sites.
- Other info: The combustion chamber is different. It has a different shape for better pressure recovery. The ports are also different. They are cleaner (better machined) and have different intake valve angle grinds.

YEAR COMP DISPL. POWER TORQUE CAR
1994-1999 8.5:1 1998cc 241hp@6000rpm 225lb-ft@3400rpm ST205 (Celica)
1997-2002 9.0:1 1998cc 255hp@6200rpm 240lb-ft@4400rpm ST215 (Caldina)

Wiring: Can be done by Primemr2 or wiregapinc (mr220v) or by yourself if you want

Aftermarket downpipe: can be found on Primemr2

I’m not taking credit for anything, I’m simply compiling information instead of all this scattered information all over the web.

REFERENCES: www.mr2oc.com, alltrac.net (pitcelica), ilovemysilly, plachum, wiregapinc, 6gc.net forums, toymods.au, and others who I may not have mentioned that provided some input on threads

If there are corrections to be made or additions, that would be great.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 28, 2016 - 4:54 AM

[richee3]

One correction I see, the 4th gen is actually not VVT-i. Good thread though, hopefully it dispels a lot of the misinformation and assumptions about the 4th gen!

[trdproven]

One correction I see, the 4th gen is actually not VVT-i. Good thread though, hopefully it dispels a lot of the misinformation and assumptions about the 4th gen!

Thanks made correction. Hopefully it can grow into something more accurate and just plain more info.

[richee3]

I assume you're looking into a 4th gen swap for yourself? I would be happy to pull some part numbers to contribute to your thread. I'm eventually planning to go 4th gen myself but life keeps getting in the way.

[DarkDeath]

good stuff, also one thing though:

- Both use the same turbo CT20b

I believe the gen4 3sgte uses a CT15B?

Definitely going for a 4th gen swap right now, and I definitely want to be part of finding out the ins and outs of this engine, since alot of info of this engine is tossed all over (rods are weak, but some say they handle fine etc) it'll be good to get some concrete and new info by having it.

~DarkDeath

[lagos]

4th gen essentially needs only the motor, ECU, and everything that goes with the harness wiring while the 3rd gen pretty much needs the front clip

This is not correct.
If anything the 3rd gen is the easier swap since it originally came from a 94-99 Celica.

[richee3]

He's essentially just saying that the 4th gen is more self contained than the 3rd gen, and that it doesn't need any extra accessories that the 3rd gen does such as the fuel pump resistor pack, w2a heat exchanger, etc. I wouldn't say that either swap is more difficult than the other. You're trading extra accessories on the 3rd gen for a FMIC on the 4th gen.

[trdproven]

4th gen essentially needs only the motor, ECU, and everything that goes with the harness wiring while the 3rd gen pretty much needs the front clip

This is not correct.
If anything the 3rd gen is the easier swap since it originally came from a 94-99 Celica.

This is the information I got from a lot of boards. ilovemysilly also recently did the swap and says it was fairly simple given its a first time for a major project like this. I guess in comparison the two swaps are the same essentially if you really think about it. Although the 3rd gen did come out of our cars exactly, its still physically a bolt on 3s just like the 3rd gen. The only difference really is in electronics in the 4th gen while the 3rd gen you needed a lot of those accessories around the motor and the firewall which essentially required a clip - hard find. And the wiring for the 4th gen which makes it the hardest part can just be overcome with wiregap and primemr2. Tweak did the same swap years before and basically said the same thing.

I just wanted to have information to our site that we can build and make it more accurate and make it referenced for future builds. MR2 guys have been doing this day in and out so I'm guessing this is an option as well. I'm planning on this one instead of the 5sfte but I'm trying to do the gt-four front first if I could ever get a good price or even find any at all.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 24, 2016 - 6:01 PM

[trdproven]

good stuff, also one thing though:

- Both use the same turbo CT20b

I believe the gen4 3sgte uses a CT15B?

Definitely going for a 4th gen swap right now, and I definitely want to be part of finding out the ins and outs of this engine, since alot of info of this engine is tossed all over (rods are weak, but some say they handle fine etc) it'll be good to get some concrete and new info by having it.

~DarkDeath

according to some forum sources and mywikimotors, it was a ct20b

[Smaay]

You dont really need the fuel pump resistor or the water pump relay. When I did Amy's car I removed all that wiring from the harness and defeated CODE 54 at the ECU using the ST185 method. very easy.

Or you could use a 3rd gen MR2 ECU. I did that for her All-Trac. got rid of MAFS and ran larger injectors.

[enderswift]

I'm not sure I agree with saying that the 3rd Gen 'accessories' make it a harder swap. the relay box is 6 wires...and the resistor is built in to the harness..

the only possibly annoying bit is the wta pump. but seriously guys? youre all gonna run screaming from something like that?

whereas the 4th Gen is a whole lot more wiring. which is either a significant time investment or an extra expense to get it done professionally

[trdproven]

ok so if I were to look into a 3rd gen swap, just the motor, ecu, and harness, how far more and where to find the rest of the accessories/sensors? i'm trying do this as headacheless as possible. my biggest issue is not the swap or the wiring, its more of nothing missing that would delay.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 24, 2016 - 7:30 PM

[DarkDeath]

good stuff, also one thing though:

- Both use the same turbo CT20b

I believe the gen4 3sgte uses a CT15B?

Definitely going for a 4th gen swap right now, and I definitely want to be part of finding out the ins and outs of this engine, since alot of info of this engine is tossed all over (rods are weak, but some say they handle fine etc) it'll be good to get some concrete and new info by having it.

~DarkDeath

according to some forum sources and mywikimotors, it was a ct20b

I've also seen some sources say that it was a ct20b but I've always noticed the post was really old. I'm certain the gen4 comes with a CT15b unless there are variants? can someone confirm if there were? my sources are:

http://www.atsracing.net/Parts/Details/TUR-SWEET16
http://www.primemr2.com/store/p339/CT15_St...bo_Upgrade.html
http://www.mr2oc.com/61-3sgte-turbo/501322...b-vs-ct15b.html (he's saying he wants to upgrade to the ct20b or keep the stock ct15b on his gen4)

~DarkDeath

[lagos]

ok so if I were to look into a 3rd gen swap, just the motor, ecu, and harness, how far more and where to find the rest of the accessories/sensors? i'm trying do this as headacheless as possible. my biggest issue is not the swap or the wiring, its more of nothing missing that would delay.

You need the same basic stuff that your NA engine would need to run.

Ingition Coil
Igniter
Map Sensor
Fuel Injector resistor pack
ECU
Uncut wiring harness.

Sometimes the heat exchanger and water pump are missing from an engine set. You can ask your seller to see if he has those or source aftermarket parts.

[mgnt232]

One correction I see, the 4th gen is actually not VVT-i. Good thread though, hopefully it dispels a lot of the misinformation and assumptions about the 4th gen!

Good info, I never really knew the difference.
It's good to have more options

[4-eyed-freek]

ok so if I were to look into a 3rd gen swap, just the motor, ecu, and harness, how far more and where to find the rest of the accessories/sensors? i'm trying do this as headacheless as possible. my biggest issue is not the swap or the wiring, its more of nothing missing that would delay.

As enderswift said, Its literally 6 wires. make a small harness from your fuse box in the engine bay to the relay box about a foot away.

[trdproven]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 25, 2016 - 5:03 PM

[enderswift]

Any engine reseller who actually knows what they're doing will include a map sensor, ignitor, fusebox, and other parts that are needed for the swap (though they do charge a premium compared to stripped down 3rd gens).
The only thing that might not be included is the wta pump and heat exchanger but that's a non issue for most because they go front mount anyway...

here is a perfect 3rd gen engine:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGINE-JDM-3SGTE-2...JUa&vxp=mtr

The map is included, so is the injector resistor, fuel pump fuse box, ignitor...hell even the stock blow off valve, turbo intake, and chargecooler overflow are included. Nothing else would be needed to get this engine installed over a weekend.

So no, you don't need a clip to swap in a 3rd gen. You just have to find a quality seller.

here's another:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/94-99-TOYOTA-CELIC...NvU&vxp=mtr


As for where to get parts, here's a few links to good stores:

http://www.primemr2.com/store/c15/GEN3_Rep...e-Up_Parts.html
http://tcbparts.co.uk/
http://www.gt4-racing.eu/index.php/toyota-celica-st205
http://www.gt4-play.co.uk/catalog/index.php/cPath/24_25_67

This post has been edited by enderswift: Aug 25, 2016 - 7:22 PM

[njccmd2002]

I dont hate the 3sgte, but is there a reason why only a handful go V6, i mean smaay has got it down to a science. Cheap and affordable. I know this is off topic to the OP, but no one does.

The 2gr i know its expensive, but the hybrid smaay built seems awesome. and its certifiable in cali... my 0.02

[presure2]

3rd gen uses 20b, manifold and turbo are seperate peices.
4th gen uses a one peice mainfold/turbo, usually called ct15.

[4-eyed-freek]

The 2gr is a monster engine, only problem is its about as maxed out as it gets performance wise once swapped. a few bolt on's and the 3s is on par if not exceeding the performance of the 2gr.
On a side note, dat v6 sound track wouldn't get old

[lagos]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

The Map sensor is the most essential part and the hardest to find. You can source the igniter and coil from ebay for a few bucks since those are common in a few Toyotas.

People recommend buying a clip because it ensures you get every little thing like all of the parts of the heat exchanger, and it help to be able to label things as you uninstall them if its your first time working on a project like this.

[4-eyed-freek]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

The Map sensor is the most essential part and the hardest to find. You can source the igniter and coil from ebay for a few bucks since those are common in a few Toyotas.

People recommend buying a clip because it ensures you get every little thing like all of the parts of the heat exchanger, and it help to be able to label things as you uninstall them if its your first time working on a project like this.

www.primemr2.com has map sensors for both 3rd and 4th gens

[trdproven]

what about like the bar map sensor, ignitor, etc? where did all this information on this forum and others say best to buy a clip cus it sounded like a lot of accessories? just trying to make this thread cleaner.

The Map sensor is the most essential part and the hardest to find. You can source the igniter and coil from ebay for a few bucks since those are common in a few Toyotas.

People recommend buying a clip because it ensures you get every little thing like all of the parts of the heat exchanger, and it help to be able to label things as you uninstall them if its your first time working on a project like this.

First time doing a project like thus the research, everything I've done to my car and all my friends cars are first time, not scared at all and I basically have a shop at my house. I leaned to a 4th gen cus my wiring skills are not great which I could just pay to get it done. My concern for the 3rd gen is making sure I have everything to complete a swap. I'll still be researching with everyone's help. Searching still for a st205 front to complete it at the same time

Thanks to everyone, I hope we keep 6gc going.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 27, 2016 - 9:02 PM

[pitcelica]

- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen

About this, even if the bolt pattern seems different because the number of holes on the 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't the same as the 3rd gen, you can still bolt a 3rd gen exhaust manifold on a 4th gen head. So, by definition, the bolt pattern is the same. The 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't using all the available studs on the head (especially the top left, upper one)

As for the turbo naming, it is now a convention (at least on the 3SGTE-related forums) that the 3rd gen is a CT20b and the 4th gen is the CT15b. So, I think it would be wise to modify your first post about the turbo name.

Have a good day!

Sam

[trdproven]

- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen

About this, even if the bolt pattern seems different because the number of holes on the 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't the same as the 3rd gen, you can still bolt a 3rd gen exhaust manifold on a 4th gen head. So, by definition, the bolt pattern is the same. The 4th gen exhaust manifold isn't using all the available studs on the head (especially the top left, upper one)

As for the turbo naming, it is now a convention (at least on the 3SGTE-related forums) that the 3rd gen is a CT20b and the 4th gen is the CT15b. So, I think it would be wise to modify your first post about the turbo name.

Have a good day!

Sam

Thanks Sam, makes sense as I've heard about the bolt pattern being different but just like the 3rd gen not being exact as the 5s doesn't mean it won't bolt on, good info.

For the ct20b there's a lot of info on it being a ct20 but a ct15 makes more sense for a quicker spool.

[Patrick3sgte]

I was bored so I compiled this info together. I'm actually researching into this a bit. I wanted to get some info onto our own site, as its possible we might head into this movement as the mr2 homies are.

ST205 3rd Gen 3sgte

ST215 4th Gen 3sgte


3rd Generation ST205 3SGTE Celica VS. 4th Generation ST215 3SGTE Caldina
- 4th gen essentially needs only the motor, ECU, and everything that goes with the harness wiring while the 3rd gen pretty much needs the front clip or all the accessories complete
- 4th gen has a larger throttle body
- 4th gen uses ct15 vs 3rd gen ct20 turbo
- 4th gen uses a one-piece turbo/manifold vs 3rd gen but you can still get your own or make your own manifold and pick your own turbo
- 4th gen different exhaust manifold bolt pattern than 3rd gen but still fits same for all S family if 3rd can fit on 5s and 3rd can fit on 4th
- 4th gen different downpipe than the 3rd gen
- 4th gen Intercooler is Air to Air vice Air to Water on the 3rd Gen (Run FMIC for 4th gen unless you switch to air to water setup or create a Caldina style air scoop)
- Both 540cc/min injectors but 4th gen has top feed high impedance vs 3rd gen side feed low impedance
- 4th gen – quicker spooling turbo
- 4th gen has COP (Coil on Plug) while 3rd gen has distributor
- 4th Gen manifold is better with side feed while 3rd gen is almost a center feed
- Midpipe will need to be welded to connect downpipe and rest of exhaust – same for both gens
- S Family transmission or E153 transmission both fits keep the axles and shift cables based on the transmission you use. So you have to match your mounts to transmission as well.
Same Engine Mounts as GT, You can use a 3s flywheel, 3s pressure plate, and a 3s disc splined for 5s or just use the 5s disc.
- Radiator hoses stay the same, either use 5S or 3S
- 4th Gen now is getting cheaper and doable many shops like chico and prime have done many on celicas, mr2s, and even rav4s – more 4th gens are now popping up for sale
- Essentially and by assumption a 4th gen would provide a less beat up engine with low miles since it was mostly an automatic from Japan and newer, but that’s not guaranteed.
- 4th gen requires axle carrier bearing locating pins since the 2nd/3rd gens had them already pressed in but the 4th gen is missing them – get it from Primemr2 and press or tap it in
- 4th gen requires tach adapter. This device converts the tachometer signal from the Gen4 engine to be compatible with the existing tachometer
- Both still need the Supra TT fuel pump or Walbro 255
- 4th gen prior has mentioned internals are weaker such as the rods, but it was found that many of the internal part numbers are the same than 3rd gen.
- 4th gen cylinder walls are thicker than 3rd gen
- 4th gen runs a 9:0:1 compression ratio rather than the 8:5:1 of the 3rd gen
- External drive belts should be the same I believe
- 5S 2.2L PS and AC is possible to mount on to the 4th gen same as 3rd gen
- Head gaskets may be different I’m not sure but I see them as two different part numbers
- Question lies: Where do you get replacement parts for the ST215? It’s difficult to say at this point where a good source is at but with the 4th gen movement some used parts may soon become move available. I’m starting to see some parts being sold on ebay and other sites.
- Other info: The combustion chamber is different. It has a different shape for better pressure recovery. The ports are also different. They are cleaner (better machined) and have different intake valve angle grinds.

YEAR COMP DISPL. POWER TORQUE CAR
1994-1999 8.5:1 1998cc 241hp@6000rpm 225lb-ft@3400rpm ST205 (Celica)
1997-2002 9.0:1 1998cc 255hp@6200rpm 240lb-ft@4400rpm ST215 (Caldina)

Wiring: Can be done by Primemr2 or wiregapinc (mr220v) or by yourself if you want

Aftermarket downpipe: can be found on Primemr2

I’m not taking credit for anything, I’m simply compiling information instead of all this scattered information all over the web.

REFERENCES: www.mr2oc.com, alltrac.net (pitcelica), ilovemysilly, plachum, wiregapinc, 6gc.net forums, toymods.au, and others who I may not have mentioned that provided some input on threads

If there are corrections to be made or additions, that would be great.

So Basically I can run a higher boost settings on my 3rd gen out of the box ?? so in other words a 3rd gen is better

[trdproven]

Kinda yes since the compression is lower but the caldina engine in its stock form was a refined tune for its setup. The 4th also offers some features that has its benefits such as the side feed, larger tb, better off boost, and cop. If upgraded accordingly the 4th gen is a beast of its own. But both engines pretty darn good. It's a really a choice.

This post has been edited by trdproven: Aug 30, 2016 - 6:42 AM

[enderswift]

I run 20 psi on my 3rd Gen all day long. Some times 22 psi on cool evenings. all it took was a boost controller, and water injection as a safety blanket.

this turns out to be 300 whp at 19.5 psi on the dyno. It's so easy to get power from a 3rd gen...

I don't have first hand experience with a 4th, but I imagine higher comp makes it harder to push boost as high

also, why is everyone always talking about COP like it's the greatest thing ever? OEMS only switched to it to reduce the number of maintaince parts(cap, rotor, etc). There isn't any performance benefit since a standard distributor system can advance and retard ignition timing just as well.

Don't believe me? go hook up a timing light and watch the timing adjust on a distributor car while it idles

[richee3]

Ignition timing is controlled more accurately by COP'S, but not to such an extent that a stock 3S and stock turbo will have any real benefit. But I personally prefer COP's for exactly what you said- fewer parts to maintain.

Once we wander away from 6gc.net, we see that the 4th gen has proven to be just as capable as a 3rd gen. Which begs the question, why argue in favor of one motor or the other? Both are great choices. Both swaps are simple enough. Both give you a 2 liter turbocharged engine that is dead reliable, gives 300 whp all day, and bolts right in. Neither is superior to the other, but they both have slight benefits over each other.

So, why in a thread that is an informative thread about the 4th gen, has a pissing contest started between 3S owners? It's just a matter of personal preference, nothing worth arguing over.

I personally prefer the 4th gen for a few reasons, just the same as many prefer a 3rd gen. For me, the BEAMS has me spoiled. It's self contained (in the sense of just buying the engine/harness/ECU and that I need) so the 4th gen appeals to me for its similarity. Nothing against the 3rd gen, just what I prefer.


*This post is in no way directed at anyone here. Just referring to the inevitable argument about an essentially similar motor.

[trdproven]

Ignition timing is controlled more accurately by COP'S, but not to such an extent that a stock 3S and stock turbo will have any real benefit. But I personally prefer COP's for exactly what you said- fewer parts to maintain.

Once we wander away from 6gc.net, we see that the 4th gen has proven to be just as capable as a 3rd gen. Which begs the question, why argue in favor of one motor or the other? Both are great choices. Both swaps are simple enough. Both give you a 2 liter turbocharged engine that is dead reliable, gives 300 whp all day, and bolts right in. Neither is superior to the other, but they both have slight benefits over each other.

So, why in a thread that is an informative thread about the 4th gen, has a pissing contest started between 3S owners? It's just a matter of personal preference, nothing worth arguing over.

I personally prefer the 4th gen for a few reasons, just the same as many prefer a 3rd gen. For me, the BEAMS has me spoiled. It's self contained (in the sense of just buying the engine/harness/ECU and that I need) so the 4th gen appeals to me for its similarity. Nothing against the 3rd gen, just what I prefer.


*This post is in no way directed at anyone here. Just referring to the inevitable argument about an essentially similar motor.

yea make sense, never started this thread to make it a REAL VS of which is better, more of a VS for comparison of differences or similarities.