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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
Whats the deal with these cars steering? Its like when you go around a corner on a wet road and the wheel is turned to a certain point the car wants to slide. Its also very hard to feel the road with these things, the steering is pretty tight but its hard too and you cant feel when your tires are starting to break loose. When my g/f got her GT she almost crashed it getting off the highway when the roads were wet. She just turned the wheel alittle and the thing started sliding and the rear end broke loose also. You cant feel the road at all with this car, i even have 17's with low pro performance tires and you still cant feel crap. Anyone else find this out about yours? It does handle really well but the steering is alittle funky...what do you think?
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Aug 20, '03 From Annapolis, Md Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
I would first tell you an your g/f to learn how to drive. Second, get new tires, well for your g/f.... I can feel the road perfect, i try hard for the rear end to slide, i get it, but when i do, its because i try... These cars drive very well, and have a great feel, if your looking for better, go buy an m3..... an really learn to drive, im not trying to be an ass..
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 26, '03 From McKenzie, TN Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I have the same prob and I have 17's w/ low profs too . Teh handling is great but I cant feel how well the car is gripping. Ive almost lost it a couple o times. Its hard now since we've had 5+inches of rain in the past 3 days.
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
First of all..Both I and her have 6G celica's. I have also owned MANY other cars and driven tons also. She has new Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus tires (They run over 100$ per tire for 15's!!) They are excellent tires. I have Kelly HPT Charger Performance tires on mine and they have less wet traction than hers but thats besides the point..Its not the tires on the car, its the steering. If you think you can feel the road perfect in these cars then you have never driven a real sports car. You cant feel crap with these things. I have drive about 10 of these celicas and they have all felt the same during cornering. On dry roads you dont have much of a problem but as soon as it gets wet and you turn the wheel alittle too much there goes your front tires. Never had this problem with any other car ive had or driven.
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
exactly! They do handle excellent and the steering is nice! But there is just a point where the tires just want to come loose and its very unexpected. The car is just really solid and so is the steering so i think thats why you cant feel the point where the tires start to break loose. -------------------- ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Jan 8, '04 From LA Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I have never run into this problem.
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Feb 25, '04 From Wisconsin Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
well i've driven REAL sports cars many times. and i'll say this... its the tires. I've driven AWD (like my talon and STi's) on low pros and they will slip on wet surfaces. yes they have water channels, but they're meant for dry pavement. The celica is a great car for steering compared to others in its class. Yes, i'm probably sure a corvette handles a little better than a Celi.. but for the car we have its great. I dont know about the "not feeling the road" part. I feel my car 100% of the time and force it to understeer and slide. I'm the only one in my city to pull off the 5 sec FWD drift, and it was in the Celi on my stock 15's.
![]() Maybe since you're used to driving real sports cars, you're not used to a FWD setup. Figuring REAL sports cars are normally RWD, your probably breaking the front tires loose too early in the corner and causing understeer. In your g/f's case - tell her to not accelerate until the corner is done thus keeping some traction on those expensive tires. This post has been edited by turboinduction: Apr 24, 2004 - 2:04 PM |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
She wasnt accelerating into the corner..her foot was off the gas and she was making a slight turn and the tires started sliding sideways. These cars just have wierd steering and the break loose point is real soon. Maybe because its such a light car also...I dont know but i feel much safer taking turns with wet roads in my FWD 3000GT with wore out tires. I would have to turn the wheel twice as much to get the same sliding effect with my 3000. And at least i can feel when they are right on the verge of breaking loose and i can lay off. Different car and different setup is all it is..but im not too fond of the steering on the celica to tell the truth.
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined May 5, '03 From Toronto Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
I'm sorry to tell you this, but a good set of tires will cost close to 180 retail. Throw on a set of Toyo T1-S and then drive. You'll notice a big difference in the dry and wet. |
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Enthusiast ![]() Joined Apr 15, '04 From United Kingdom Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Perhaps there is some excessive play in the steering rack or surrounding bushes.
Whilst my car has a totally different suspension setup to the GT's I find that the car gives excellent feedback. Just out of interest I use Goodyear Eagle F1 tires, at the current exchange rate they work out at about $180 per tyre for me but the grip is excellent in both the wet and the dry. |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 12, '02 From Webster Ma. Currently Offline Reputation: 1 (100%) ![]() |
haahaha this happend to me today. screwed um my car.. sucks. but i think it just a matter of not cutting the wheel so hard maybe?
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
MY g/f's car have 67k miles on it..its basically brand new and tight as can be. There is no play in the steering, mine has alitle bit of slop but it has 156k miles. If you pay 180$ for each 15in tire then you make too much money. Ive had 180$ each goodyear RSA's on my 3000GT and they were the worst tire i have ever had. I'll stick with some 100$ Kuhmos. -------------------- ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Oct 13, '02 From Blairstown, New Jersey Currently Offline Reputation: 6 (100%) ![]() |
I ran my dads old '87 Mazda B2200 off a wet road into a guardrail once because he had 10% percent of his front brakes left and totally bald tires. I was only in second gear doing about 5-10 mph because its a very sharp turn that i knew would be slippery.
![]() Ive never run across any problems in my celica though. Only time the front tires ever let loose was going around a sharp corner late at night from a total stop at a stop light. I also had 3 people in the back seat plus a trunk full of sh**, so it didnt suprise me. Other than that ive had nothing wrong with the handling....i think that it handles great and provides great control due to the wide 15 x7 wheels and tires, so its a total injustice to say it handles bad. -------------------- 3rd gen ST205 3SGTE - Alive and boosting. |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined May 5, '03 From Toronto Currently Offline Reputation: 3 (100%) ![]() |
If i pay $180 for each tire doesn't mean i make too much money, its means I don't wanna complain about something that is a cause of me cheaping out. Kuhmo's are **** tires. And 180 on your 3000GT are **** tires. The tire size on the 3000GT is different from celica's. I would say your suspension needs an upgrade, your tires suck, or you expect to do 160khm and make a right angle turn. |
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Enthusiast ![]() Joined Apr 15, '04 From United Kingdom Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
The GT-Four comes with 16" wheels as standard, its a performance car, which demands a performance tire. The Eagle F1 is a very good tire, Just because the totally different Goodyear tire you tried on a completely different car wasn't any good it doesn't mean they are all trash. A tire is your sole contact with the road, not worth being cheap on in my opinion. 67k miles is plenty to have some wear creep in, perhaps you could try changing the belt. Check your running the right pressures in the tires. Check the springs and dampers, there are any number of components that could cause this. If you can't feel the amount of grip that the wheel has then there is something wrong with the car. |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined May 22, '03 From NOVA Currently Offline Reputation: 16 (100%) ![]() |
its called UNDERSTEER, typical of all front wheel drives, too much gas/fast = front slides out...personally me and my car are really close and she tells me everything.. every crack, bump, vibration, or tire slide that is wrong she tells me...the front of my celica only goes out when i want it to...all comes down to if you can drive or not
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Aug 29, '02 From ny to philly Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I know what he's talking about. I used to have problems in the wet, but somewhere along the line of upgrading my shocks and getting new tires it is no longer a problem.
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Aug 20, '03 From Annapolis, Md Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
ok, guys its called learning to drive your car... not a car, your car. Iv driven plenty of sports cars, but for this class, i would say this is the best iv driven..... Learn to drive..... all cars have dif things.. you just learn them and know the points, and then you wont have problems, unless you dont figur right.. or somthing.
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
Ive said that it has done it on every 6g celica i have driven. 180$ per tire for 15in rims is senseless no matter how you look at it. The celica is a 110/135hp car...you dont need transam WS-6 tires on it ![]() ![]() Anyways..i guess i better learn to drive ![]() -------------------- ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Aug 20, '03 From Annapolis, Md Currently Offline Reputation: 5 (100%) ![]() |
there ya go, now your getting it..... ![]() |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
Understeer...I guess thats what you can call it...seems like these cars might have alot of it? The car does handle really well, actually it Almost handles as well as my 3000GT with aftermarket suspension. I have yet taken it to its limits on dry road or wet. But when it is wet sometimes i just play with it taking a corner and twitch the wheel alittle farther while im turning and watch the front hop straight for a minute. It just seems to do it too easy is all. But i do beleive upgraded suspension would take car of most of that. SO you guys with aftermarket suspension must not remember what its like to drive a stock celica
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 3, '04 From Las Vegas Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
know your cars limits, i know all 4 tires can slide out from under me on smooth DRY concrete if i take a corner too fast/tight and i have my car dropped 2.5 inches(granted my tires suck). i know my car understeers if i get on the gas too early when turning. btw... what gave you the idea that low-pros have good traction in the rain? my suggestion for everybody is to take up autocrossing. thats the best way to learn your car.
Preston |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
I never said low-pro's give better traction. They have less sidewall roll and make the car ride harder but thats about it. I was just stating the type of tires on mine and my g/f's car and both act pretty funny when turning in the rain. My g/f had sunfire before she got the celica..in the sunfire its just like every other car i have driven and there isnt much of a problem with sliding even when you turn the wheel really hard on wet roads..but when she got the celica she found out the hard way and slid around alittle ![]() -------------------- ![]() |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
BTW...the tires on my celica were about 130$ each !! awww...i didnt buy them though. They are nice tires i have to say but not any better than the cheap kuhmo's i like
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Sep 12, '03 From Portland , Oregon , United States Currently Offline Reputation: -1 (33%) ![]() |
Yeah Just sayin I had the Same Problem expect I learned where that point was, so I would Break it loose when I wanted too. I had 4 really bad tires, and really bad brakes, so mabey that helped.
DTE -------------------- I am a thief.
do not buy anything from me. |
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Enthusiast Joined Mar 3, '04 From Las Vegas Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
kumhos are great tires my friend autocrosses them on his cooper S and they do take a beating
you kinda contradicted yourself there didnt you? unless you meant something else
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
Going straight and taking off the line when wet isnt a problem at all so i would say they do have good traction. -------------------- ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Heh... honestly now guys... you need to re-think your driving habits. If you're going wayy wayy too fast into and coming out of a turn... then it's understeer. You're looking to get yourselves killed in you're understeering in the rain. It's not a matter of judgment or ability or tires... it's a matter of stupidity. The only time you understeer... too much speed into a corner and not slowing down trying to accelerate through it. Tires have little/nothing to do with it in the rain. If you're just sliding and losing traction in regular stop and go driving, (dry road, wet road) then it's bad tires. Speaking as a person who has autocrossed and rallycrossed a 6th gen celica... they're fairly neutral stock with proper braking. They're predictable, slow, they stop/slow down well, and they're well balanced with good spring rates in stock trim. There shouldn't be any traction issues because of the stock suspension. If you're having traction problems, let alone 'breaking loose' the rear-end not because of bald tires... then I'd say you better re-think those driving habits. FF cars don't loose rear-end traction unless you have TERRIBLE rear tires... or you're actually trying to do it... even in the rain. That's the nature of a FF set-up. Predictability. Have fun with your cars... and do it safely.
-------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
i drive this car slow...the freaking thing bearly wants to move and have to bob my head to make it go fast
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Sep 22, '02 From Detroit Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I don't know what kind of Kumho's you have, but the Ecsta 711's I had sucked. They were about $100 a piece and had horrible traction.
My favorite tires are Bridgestone Potenza RE730($150 a piece for 205/50/15), though I have RE910 on now(all season Potenza, about $140 a piece). Between the two, the Kumho slide like mad and were actually less predictable when they got warm. I get more traction out of the RE910 then I did out of the Kumho 711. As far as the rear sliding, I don't have to use the ebrake on dirt(Rallycross) or when it rains. Every car has it's own charecteristics, and the Celica is easy to slide, you just have to become more sensitive to the input. It's there, you just have to be missing it.(Or your Kumhos are giving you problems like mine did). |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I'd like to know how you slide the rear without the e-brake. It's very interesting to me that wheels which are being dragged can slide on their own with control being maintained... -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Aug 31, '02 From KC Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
The Michelin Pilots that came on my 97GT were terrible in the rain after they got a little wear, it really did feel unsafe in wet turns even at lower speeds, The stock 7th gen 16"wheels and Yokohama A680 tires are MUCH better in the wet, but dont handle as good in the dry. I'm now looking at either Continental Conti-Extreme or Cooper Zeon 2XS for all-around everyday driving. anyone have experience with either of these?
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 9, '03 From Dayton, OH Currently Offline Reputation: 2 (100%) ![]() |
Im getting kuhmo 711's on my 3000GT. Its not my daily driver and i dont drive it in the rain unless i have to so it doesnt matter to me. On my celica i have 215/45/17 Kelly HPT Chargers, Pretty decent tires to say the least. -------------------- ![]() |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Sep 22, '02 From Detroit Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I thought it was you that mentioned the Kumho. I was just skimming over quickly. As for the Kelly, I haven't used them, but I've always trusted Bridgestone. I've had Sumitomo(don't bother, they suck), Firestone(Firehawks on the 85 RWD Celi, they were decent but slid some in the wet), Kumho(hated them), and a couple other off brands(on the Hyundai) that I didn't care for. As for sliding the rear, like I said it has to be in the wet or in the dirt for a FF car. You can use the cars weight with a 'Scandanavian Flick'(turn the opposite way and then back quickly). It takes some getting used to, but there are a couple corners that I can get a full four wheel drift in the rain. I've tried in the dry, and can get the rear to come out a hair, but nothing like when it's wet. I used the technique a lot when I was Rallycrossing too, when I started I had to use the ebrake all the time, but eventually learned how to control the car better and could do it without the ebrake without thinking about it. |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Doesn't work. What you're mentioning is a weight-shift feint drift technique... which doesn't work in a FF car. You can weight-shift, but all it'll do is understeer, then correct. I say again... the rear wheels are being pulled... so they follow the front wheels only... They can't break traction by themselves unless you e-brake or stop/slow/reduce traction directly to the rear wheels somehow. It'll do the same in the rain or dirt... it'll just do it with less driver input because of limited traction. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Mar 4, '03 Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
Kwanza you are wrong mate, you can get them out with a flick. I wouldn't exactly call it drift, more like a slide
![]() Bufferdan I think you are crazy. The understeer in our cars is awesome, I know within a mm of how far i can push before i lose it. I am always getting a bit of front slide happening through the wet hill drives, you just need to know when to accelerate. What you are talking about will NOT happen if you don't have your foot on the gas. And only when you are in a certain zone when your wheels are excessively turned and you are going a certain speed (accelerating at about 25 kph). You are talking about spinning your front wheel (inside) or wheels in the wet which then causes understeer... it's usually the inside one because bodyroll will lift it up... this happens because you have carried too much speed into the corner and are oversteering to get out of it. |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Nov 4, '02 From Hecho en la Republica Dominicana/Living in NJ Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
New Wet/Dry Tires
This post has been edited by macavely: Apr 24, 2004 - 10:13 PM -------------------- |
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
You guys are confusing understeer with rear traction loss. Like I said in my before post... Even with weight shift... you can't get the rear wheels to break traction opposite of the front wheels (without direct input). The only time the rear breaks traction, and slides, is when the front does also (under normal driving). That's understeer. That's just how the car works. Say for example, if you're coming out of a corner with understeer... and then feint, the rear will kick in response to the weight-shift and steering correction... but it'll correct to follow the front. It's not even what one would consider a slide... If you count the understeer as the slide... then yes... that's a slide... but the only real way to lose traction in the rear (while maintaining fron traction and control) on a FF car is to pull the e-brake, or run mismatched and thrash the hell out of the rear tires. I think many of you need to go out to the track and try it before you imagine it. It happens very differently from what you all are thinking. Also... this has nothing to do with drifting. It's just basic physics on why a FF car can't lose rear traction without direct input. That's why traysliding was invented... This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Apr 24, 2004 - 11:24 PM -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Enthusiast ![]() Joined Jan 20, '04 From princeton, new jersey Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
thread was too long to read through but i don't know if anyone has mentioned that all frontwheel drive cars have bad understeering problems...if your coming around a turn with a f- drive car to fast when its slick the car will start sliding the direction the car is facing the rear wheels won't slide but the fronts will go straight instead of the direction they are pointing in because of the momentum of the car...and uhhhh why is it that you were taking a turn that fast when it was slick out? were not in nascar...and we don't have pit crews lol not trying to be a dlck but when its slick out you can take fast turns espeacially in a front wheel drive car
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![]() Enthusiast ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Joined Dec 27, '03 From Nor Cal Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
I think you're a bit confused. I read your post again... and yeah... you have the 2 mixed up slightly. First off... Understeer, although can be fun... is terrible in racing. You want to understeer as little as possible... cause understeer forces you to slow down. If not... the more you accelerate during and understeer... the more you will understeer. As for correcting understeer... well... that's where skill comes in. If you change the steering and let off the gas... you spin. FF cars are very forgiving... and still... you'll spin. It's even worse with FR and MR. The only way to correct understeer, is to ride it out while slowing down and/or slowdown before the turn and avoid it all together. You don't want to overcorrect to fix the understeer... because then you'll still have to be accelerating to keep the car in control. On a FF car... it's very very hard to fix underteer with acceleration and overcorrection. At higher speeds... that will most likely cause more understeer. Anyways... the techniques I mention are for high-speed track runs, and you shouldn't even come close to those situations. If you do... I hope it's not on a public street. -------------------- "It's ok to be naked girl... I'm an artist!"
1995 AT200 Celica ST: stocked out daily driver... 1984 AE86 Corolla GT-SR5: silvertop 20V 4AGE project car jacked up with goodies... 1991 SW2x MR2 n/a: bare bones hardtop model soon to be... |
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Enthusiast ![]() Joined Apr 15, '04 From United Kingdom Currently Offline Reputation: 0 (0%) ![]() |
My GT-Four has 306hp - perhaps I will need a better tyre than most ![]() |
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