heel a toe a celica Options

[pflau]

Im trying to learn to heel and toe my 6gc.. is it me or is the gas pedal a little woo low for such thing.. I cant seem to get my heel on the gas when Im braking.. anybody else think the pedal arrangement is OK?? I dont have another manual car to compare mine to..

btw.. I can double clutch alright..

[KAMiX]

Why would you need to heel toe our cars? they are FWD.... ?? Usually heel/toe is used to bring the back around a bit on RWD cars. All it will do on a celica is keep your revs up and give you some wheelspin/oversteer.

And yes you are right, the brake pedal is kinda long as stock. Accelerator is pretty normal.

This post has been edited by KAMiX: May 24, 2004 - 12:19 AM

[macavely]

this has been talked about.. and yea the 6gc.. is not the best car to do heal toe... but if you change the pedales.. that will help out alot..

[aaronc222]

I can heel/toe my car just fine. It's used to keep the revs up, and with good tires there is no understeer.
It does take a while to get used to the pedal arrangement, but once you do it will be fine.

[Exile04]

YA i like to do it in my automatic

[Pali_playa]

wtf is heel toe?

[Showoff]

The gas pedal is WAY too low for easy heel-toeing flicking the gas then getting back to the brake is somehow easier...and as to what heel-toe driving is: I couldn't write it better so I stole this from a post on Supraforums though I didn't copy the author so if you know who wrote it let me know so I can assign ownership..


Let's start off with what NOT to say. I've heard some really disturbing comments around here in the past year. Some favorites that stuck out were - "Heel & Toe'ing helps you stop quicker, that's all dude, not much to it." and my personal favorite - something about "I was at the track, doing good, hell & toe'ing through the turns yada yada ya etc ...". Bad, very bad. If you want to sound like you know what you're doing the next time you're at cruise night .. say things like "Heel & Toeing is simply smoothing out your downshifts under braking ... no big deal." or "Acura/Honda puts the brake and throttle too far apart, can't heel & toe very well at all in anything except the S2000 and NSX." "Took me a while to get it down, but now I heel & toe going to the supermarket, it's second nature at this point."

Heel & Toe'ing in concept, is very simple. We'll create a scenario ... you are at Limerock, you've just gotten a great drive off the Downhill and are running down the front straight. You come up on your braking marker for Big Bend ... there are a couple of things you need to do right now:

First thing is you have to brake. (Please see Braking 101 for that) Now, in the mere seconds you spend slowing down, you also need to shift. The act of shifting involves depressing the clutch pedal, blipping the throttle (more on this later), moving your shift lever, and releasing the clutch pedal. If you were keeping track, you realize that you have to actuate all 3 pedals (brake, clutch, throttle) at exactly the same time ... this is where God screwed up, he only gave you two feet unless you are part of some weird circus act, and if you are, this information doesn't apply to you so stop reading now.

So, your right foot is on the binders (brakes), your left foot is actuating the clutch and you are downshifting as you approach Big Bend. The key to smooth downshifting and keeping your clutch intact for longer than one track day, is matching your revs with your transmission/engine speed. Down the front straight, you topped out at 5700RPM in fifth gear before you had to throw out the anchor. You get on the brakes hard and since you've had some time at this track, you know that you're going to need to get down to third gear and ~65mph for Big Bend. For examples sake .. we'll say that 65mph in third gear is around 3500rpm.

As you depress the clutch pedal, the engine hastily loses speed, getting down to idle so fast your tach can't keep up in real time ... you've moved the shifter into third gear and you're almost done with your braking (for those unaware, we're in slow motion right now). Now you need to release the clutch pedal, the problem is that, as we devised before, your engine speed in this gear and at this MPH ... is going to shoot up to 3500rpm from the 800rpm (idle) it's at now. Your engine is not about to just spinup 2700rpm without some resistance ... and if you are at the limit of traction already since you are threshhold braking, this extra strain will transmit itself from the clutch, through the tranmission, to the drive wheels. In the case of a real wheel drive car, this will in 9 out of 10 cases, lock the rear tires until the engine speed can get to where its supposed to be, which will be too late since you just spun around and are heading toward the retaining wall.

If anyone watched the Viper track-day crash video posted here and at ViperClub.org recently ... that is EXACTLY what happened in his case. The student didn't match what his revs properly (or at all I imagine) and as he let out the clutch, the heavy rotating mass of that V10 locked the rear tires .... it would've unlocked them in a second or so once the engine caught up, but by that time he was already sideways and heading towards the wall.

Back to the lesson ... what you need to do to prevent swapping ends like that, is match the revs ahead of time. Both feet are already preoccupied, so you use the ball of your right foot to brake, and the heel to "blip" the throttle to get the revs up into the vicinity they need to be for this maneuver. If you have big feet like me and stock or "poser" aftermarket pedals, you probably will just end up hitting the carpet in front of the throttle with your heel, in these cases, use the side of your right foot to blip, not the heel.

Practicing is tough .. if you try it while only using a little or medium braking .... you're almost definately going to jerk the brake pedal as you try to blip the throttle. You're going to be very unsmooth at first ... don't worry, everyone was at some point, just make sure no one's watching It helps to be at full braking while practicing because the binders are less sensitive and it's just easier to manipulate your foot while exherting the extra pressure for some reason .... but then you end up concentrating on not ripping the seat belts ... it's a pain the arse.

Just keep in mind your goal, to keep everything as smooth as possible. Ideally, under braking, a passenger should not be able to tell you even shifted ... although if it takes you years of practive to get to that point, don't be alarmed, that's about average. You'll pick up the basics quick however. Try not to get stuck in a 1-gear-down habit either, or if so, work on making it fast, so you can do 1-gear downshifts in repetition very quickly. What I had a bad tendency of doing when I first started practicing was I would concentrate so hard on what my right foot was doing, I'd forget about my left and sometimes release the clutch at "less than optimal" times. For this reason alone I suggest you practice with no one else around and plenty of room, lock up the rears by releasing the clutch at the wrong time and you WILL swap ends.

Let me know if you have any questions, I'll answer anything I can.

[aaronc222]

[Chrobis]

[turboinduction]

I knew how to do this... but i wished someone wrote it out like this for me when I was a newb. Correct me if I'm wrong... but the more HP the harder it gets. Granted with my 135 Horse BEAST that I own, if I'm off my 500 rpms... no biggie. But with a 500+ HP Viper... 500 rpms can be drastic. Shut me up if I'm wrong.

... I wish i owned a 1985 Toyota Corrola GT-S ... AE86 - Go Initial D

[Pali_playa]

oh lol i alrdy do that....just didnt knwo wht it was called

[Anub1s]

I have no problem Heel-Toeing my car. Then again it might have to do with how big your feet are. And yes heel-toe refers to match-rev downshifting which I do everytime I drive. Its easier on the brakes that way. I was having a hard time doing it at first but then I found a spot where my feet will allow me to do it and its fun now!

[pflau]

yeah what I do now is to move my foot to flick the gas REAL QUICK while I down shift.. or do the really not good thing of not releasing the clutch until I'm almost through the turn and have let go of the brake so I can flick the gas the engage the lower gear.

[wind]

[ghostdog]

[obi1kinob]

I doubt the 86 corolla is the same as the trueno. The trueno has the 4age in it.

You know.. that thing coomer has.. yeah that.

i'm just guessing though, but dont all american versions of our cars get the ****ty end of the engine stick?

[Uppitycracker]

I always thought that heal toe was to keep the turbo spooling around turns so your still hitting boost coming out. Thats just what I read, never really cared what it was for sure.

This post has been edited by Uppitycracker: May 24, 2004 - 11:33 PM

[Exile04]

i thought people just used it for when they were stopped on a steep hill...hahaha <

[macavely]

I thought you didn't need to use it unless you were on a track.. and would be pointless on the street.. well i guess thats just me..

[Uppitycracker]

[Uppitycracker]

[aaronc222]

[turboinduction]

[KAMiX]

Some of you are talking about using heel toe just to rev in between down changes.. double clutching.

I was referring to using it into and out of apexes to control the way the car is handling. There is a difference.


GOOOOOOOOO HACHI ROKU!!


my friend has one hehe.

This post has been edited by KAMiX: May 26, 2004 - 3:22 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

yes heel toe is hard to due on a stock 6gc. Even with a big foot, I wear size 11 that doesn't even help at all unless you have some wide shoes. I did this little modification over the weekend and it works great! I'm probably going to buy some glue in the next couple of days because those zip ties will not hold up for much longer.






This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Nov 1, 2010 - 4:20 AM

[delusionz]

Why would you need to heel toe our cars? they are FWD.... ?? Usually heel/toe is used to bring the back around a bit on RWD cars. All it will do on a celica is keep your revs up and give you some wheelspin/oversteer.

And yes you are right, the brake pedal is kinda long as stock. Accelerator is pretty normal.

does st205 mean anything to you?



woah sh*t this is an old thread


This post has been edited by delusionz: Nov 1, 2010 - 3:41 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

ya I know huh 6 years old damn. Ya I thought I'd share what I did over the weekend

[95CelicaST]

Who wears black socks with tennis shoes?

[HectortheRican]

Who wears black socks with tennis shoes?

*raises hand* lol

I like black socks because they don't appear as dirty!

[BonzaiCelica]

haha no this pic was taken on sunday the day after oct 30th. I was wearing Halloween costume. I was the doll from Saw. So I had a black blazer, black dress pants, white shirt and a reddish bow tie. that's why!!

[barterj]

I heel and toe downshift all the time with no issues, I actually use the technique when I Autocross. The purpose of it is to be able to get into the car into the right gear for an upcoming corner without unsettling the car. If you downshift without rev-matching then the car lurches and unsettles the car a lot, this can ruin a good approach to a corner slowing you down and also may throw your apex off slowing you down even more. BTW, I think someone should put together a driving techniques thread if one doesn't already exist.

[Euphoria]

I actually think heel and toe in 6th gens is alot easier than majority cars out there, out of about 20 cars I've driven I love heel and toeing in my car.

I apologize if someone already said this but heel and toe is for smoothness also and is ALOT better on the car, it gets you faster and smoother out of a corner.

Can't heel and toe because its front wheel drive LOL.

This post has been edited by Euphoria: Nov 2, 2010 - 10:35 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

I actually think heel and toe in 6th gens is alot easier than majority cars out there, out of about 20 cars I've driven I love heel and toeing in my car.

I apologize if someone already said this but heel and toe is for smoothness also and is ALOT better on the car, it gets you faster and smoother out of a corner.

Can't heel and toe because its front wheel drive LOL.

common dude you must admit that the pedal is a little deep, I'm not the only person who has the opinion as well. I test drove my friends s2000 ap2 and that easier to heel toe than our stock celica pedal setup. But now with my little mod its as good as the s2000.

[nics]

i have np in doing heel toe in both of my celicas. no need for mods.

euphoria, i dont get your point that you cant heel toe in a fwd.

[mkernz22]

its not a bad thing if i heel toe an auto is it? lol
I'm swapping in the spring so im just starting to get use to it

[HectortheRican]

its not a bad thing if i heel toe an auto is it? lol
I'm swapping in the spring so im just starting to get use to it

You don't have to heel toe an auto. Just use both feet

[mkernz22]

lmaoo truee, but i cant use two feet once i do my swap

[HectortheRican]

lmaoo truee, but i cant use two feet once i do my swap

If you can't use two feet, how're you gonna clutch? Lolol sorry, I'm a smart ass

[mkernz22]

you know what i mean lol
i can't use two feet to heel toe! i can only use one!

my left foot will be occupied with the clutch because they make a good couple...
and my right foot will be heeling and toeing with the brake and gas cause he's a playa like that haha

[HectortheRican]

my left foot will be occupied with the clutch because they make a good couple...
and my right foot will be heeling and toeing with the brake and gas cause he's a playa like that haha

LOL that was good

[Euphoria]

i have np in doing heel toe in both of my celicas. no need for mods.

euphoria, i dont get your point that you cant heel toe in a fwd.

haha no, I was laughing at people saying that.