who came up with the idea that supra injec., are 360cc? Options

[presure2]

so...anyone know whos idea it was that supra 315cc injectors become 360cc in our cars?
after doing a little research, i noticed that our FP and the na supra fp is the same, its the TURBO that has a lower fp.

this means that those injectors are only good for about 192hp or so @ 100% duty cycle..ill have the printout from RC Engineering scanned into the 'puter and put it up here in a day or so.
i think without a FMU, some of us will be running real close to the edge thinking we're safe..
gee, and we wonder why theres all these dead 5sfte's out there
cant be THAT simple, can it guys??
itchy, if what im thinking is true, man your REAAAALLLY close...
is anyone running a fmu? if so which?
hmmmm

[Drocay]

now thats interesting.

[Supersprynt]

You can say that again, wait you did.

The turbo injectors, arent they 440's like the 3s's? The FP is lower because its a bigger injector. Now IDK what you guys are using to turbo your 5s but if the 7mge injectors fit why not use the 7mgte injectors?

Do the 3s injectors fit?

[macavely]

You can say that again, wait you did.

The turbo injectors, arent they 440's like the 3s's? The FP is lower because its a bigger injector. Now IDK what you guys are using to turbo your 5s but if the 7mge injectors fit why not use the 7mgte injectors?

Do the 3s injectors fit?
[right][snapback]222787[/snapback][/right]

thats what i want to know.... its said that the 3s are to big which i kind understand but at the same time i'm like what the fook ... i want to know if this is just someones guess or proven....

great find manny .....

[Supersprynt]

They is most likely aftermarket injectors for the 7mgte so get those and try those.

[presure2]

from what understand the "te" injectors are side feed..no go in the 5s rail

[macavely]

so doesn anyone know what else would work? cause for the looks of it... its going to be a no go for anything over 200hp ... which i'm not planning on going over.. but i like to cover my own ass so i don't ware a thong...

[Supersprynt]

Could always try adding an additional injector and having a seperate controller for it.

[macavely]

na.. don't think i'll be doing that... .. its more and more looking like it might be custom injectores.... has anyone tried injectors from another maker.. audi .. sabb ... bmw ??

[redtcel]

how about this guys, i have some 440's from a 7mgte my buddy gave them to me, i'll try them and see if they work.

[macavely]

sounds like a plan red... let use know ...

[shid]

so...anyone know whos idea it was that supra 315cc injectors become 360cc in our cars?
after doing a little research, i noticed that our FP and the na supra fp is the same, its the TURBO that has a lower fp.
this means that those injectors are only good for about 192hp or so @ 100% duty cycle..ill have the printout from RC Engineering scanned into the 'puter and put it up here in a day or so.
i think without a FMU, some of us will be running real close to the edge thinking we're safe..
gee, and we wonder why theres all these dead 5sfte's out there
cant be THAT simple, can it guys??
itchy, if what im thinking is true, man your REAAAALLLY close...
is anyone running a fmu? if so which?
hmmmm
[right][snapback]222757[/snapback][/right]

Well since the supra comes stop with more hp than that. ...

Thats my probably wrong 2 cents, and the only thing I could add to this discussion

[redtcel]

cool im playing hookie from work today so it might be today it might be tomorrow but it will be done and i will post results. oh and by the way if you didnt know i am dabbling in the 5sfte now as well.. i have the FREE injectors, FREE intercooler and i have a st165 header... can i join yer guys' 5sfte club?

[presure2]

Well since the supra comes stop with more hp than that. ...

Thats my probably wrong 2 cents, and the only thing I could add to this discussion

well since the NA supra is just that, NA the BSFC for that car is less then our application, thats why the numbers seem off.
shid, if you dont have anything worth sayin, just dont say it, you make yourself sound silly otherwise
BTW all my math can be checked over @ rc's technical page
its all there and black and white. anyone with a claculator can figure it out...just so you know, the bsfc for the 5sfte is .61

This post has been edited by presure2: Dec 17, 2004 - 3:21 PM

[macavely]

Well since the supra comes stop with more hp than that. ...

Thats my probably wrong 2 cents, and the only thing I could add to this discussion

well since the NA supra is just that, NA the BSFC for that car is less then our application, thats why the numbers seem off.
shid, if you dont have anything worth sayin, just dont say it, you make yourself sound silly otherwise
[right][snapback]222929[/snapback][/right]

can i add to this ... happy B-day manny .... lol

[shid]

I'll just go home now

(and I have no idea who first said that)

[presure2]

ok guys after checking this all out again, it seems the intial formula that i got from someone on the mr2 board wasnt correct.
the formula goes like this:

injector size 315cc=30lbs per hr X 3.2(80%duty cycleXnumber of cylinders)=96 X .61(brake specific fuel consumtion)=58.56hp per cylinder X 4 =234.24 flywheel hp THIS MATH IS WRONG!!!!!
so thats what we're "safe" up to. after that, who knows..lol
the formula was taken from rc engineering's tech section, so i trust that.
sorry for gettin on ya shid.. just like to try and keep the posts helpful
its that rule that mamma always taught me, "if you dont have anything good to say, dont say anything at all"
:::EDIT:::chris D from celicatech posted the correct was to do this math. here it is.

You need:

(Inj. Size)*(duty cycle) / (BSFC) = HP/cylinder

(30lb/hr)*(0.8) / (0.61) = 39.344 * 4 cylinders = 157hp

Reported numbers higher than this very likely have a duty cycle higher than this. If you use 100%:

(30lb/hr)*(1.0) / (0.61) = 49.18 * 4 cylinders = 197hp

This also assumes that the base fuel pressure is 42psi or whatever the 315's are rated at.


This post has been edited by presure2: Dec 18, 2004 - 8:36 AM

[macavely]

ok guys after checking this all out again, it seems the intial formula that i got from someone on the mr2 board wasnt correct.
the formula goes like this:

injector size 315cc=30lbs per hr X 3.2(80%duty cycleXnumber of cylinders)=96 X .61(brake specific fuel consumtion)=58.56hp per cylinder X 4 =234.24 flywheel hp 
so thats what we're "safe" up to. after that, who knows..lol
the formula was taken from rc engineering's tech section, so i trust that.
sorry for gettin on ya shid.. just like to try and keep the posts helpful
its that rule that mamma always taught me, "if you dont have anything good to say, dont say anything at all"
[right][snapback]223001[/snapback][/right]

yea manny but if that exhust isn't right.. and everthing else is working the way it should... it might still be a problem.... i haven't done the math yet.. but i do trust your numbers..... so we should be good... but still you know what i'm worried about...

[1bwilson]

what about the 2jzge? They MAY have a higher cc rating. As for the first person who said 360......well its been a while but.

Years ago when Nuke first started the 5sfTe trend into the celica world he along with many other celica and MR2 owners never could find out the exact #'s. Some sites said 315 some said 360. Most old topics did say there was confusion in the cc rating and both terms were used. I guess over the past 3ish years people either went with 315 or 360. Id find one of Nukes old quotes from c.net but the site has been cleared.

[presure2]

ok guys i couldnt get the printout from rc scanned, so i just took a pic of it..here it is. before cleaning in the left column, after in the right... as you can see, even at a bsfc of .50, we're gonna REALLY be pushing it..so i go back to my original statement. we're gettting DANGEROUSLY close to the edge with these injectors..



heres a pic of the collection so far, exaust mani. elbow & cat are missing from the pic, theyre at moms for test fitting on the old engine.


...just a few more things..hehe

This post has been edited by presure2: Dec 18, 2004 - 8:39 AM

[Sev408]

^how much as that run you so far?^

[presure2]

so far, a little over 1k

[Punch]

i'm getting som parts also got my SSQ used looking for a intercooler.
good luck to you !!!

[shid]

Where'd you find the intercooler pressure, what brand and how much?

[1bwilson]

hey, talk to DG. He can make you a 5sfTe mid pipe.. Or should be able to.

[uzthedentist]

GT4 ST205 injectors are 540cc, mr2 turbo are 440cc

[1bwilson]

GT4 ST205 injectors are 540cc, mr2 turbo are 440cc
[right][snapback]223380[/snapback][/right]

MR2's are side feed.

Not sure but Chris d said the 205's will work but 540's are alot. I think I might try the AT tallon's 390's and get a set of MT tallons for the upgrade. What do you think Pressure?

[presure2]

well, brian, id say go for it, we're gonna need to find some kind of solution if we wanna run higher boost...itchy was at what 186 at the wheels? i wonder just how close to 100% duty he was @ 13psi..lol
we can buy injectors right from rc engineering, theyre right about 90$ each tho.
one thing im looking at is having my turbo upgraded, ive been talking with aaron and ken from ATS racing, they both agree that the upgraded ct26 or even they're ct"27" would be a better choice.
the thinking is the least amount of boost you use to get to your goal, the better, seems to make sense to me. so i think im gonna wait till i have the money to upgrade and have it done....ken was also telling me about a new 3" dp thats gonna be released and exclusivly distibuted by them( www.ATSracing.net ) thats supossed to be priced right about the same as the KO..good stuff..
i figure if i do the ct27 upgrade, and the 3" dp, i can prolly run about 4lbs less or more than the stock setup and get the same power

[1bwilson]

Good idea oon the upgrade. I have the ct26 upgraded to to4e. Its used and I think will need new seals.

Ive got a KO and am having fitment problems. Its hitting the AC lines but just by a little. I might sell this one off and have DG make me one but would rather keep it since I domped $300 into it so many years ago.

I think I will stay with the 315's for the first few months since their in the car now and then upgrade to a set somewhere around 440-490. When I upgrade I might add water injection also to keep the detionation down.

[presure2]

sounds like a good plan brian...think you could snap a couple pics of the ko fitment?

[1bwilson]

sounds like a good plan brian...think you could snap a couple pics of the ko fitment?
[right][snapback]223748[/snapback][/right]

I'd like to but everything is put away for the winter. Ive got 3,500 more miles to go with the break in on the new pistons.


This post has been edited by 1bwilson: Dec 20, 2004 - 12:04 AM

[Fox-N-It2]

A local 5sfte was running 550CC RC Engineering injectors at upwards of 300hp.

[1bwilson]

Was it a celica or mr2?

I havent seen a celica pass much over the 200hp mark yet for the 5sfTe.

I want to lay 220 wheel and then retire.

[Fox-N-It2]

5th gen celica. He mentioned pauter rods, JE 9:1 pistons, and Tec 2 management on 15psi. I forgot what turbo he was running.

[1bwilson]

well if you see him again get him on here.

[nik]

i'm only running venom injectors but there only 10% more flow than stock with a vortech fmu 12:1 and pushing them to 12 psi you think i'm at 100% duty on 7afe motor ??

[presure2]

nik, not really sure, all this stuff we're talking about is for the 5sfte..but with the 12:1 fmu, im sure thats ramping up your fuel pressure quite i bit..id be more worried about the pressure drop across the rail more than anything.

[nik]

sorry didnt mean to side track you guys

[1bwilson]

you didn't side track, but he/we all wouldn't feel right answering a 7afTe question due to differences we might not know about.

[nik]

its all good

its just harder to find info on some 7afte question that have to do with tuning etc not the basic. there is a few 7afte out there not many gotta keep the torch burning

[Fox-N-It2]

well if you see him again get him on here.
[right][snapback]224037[/snapback][/right]

He said he'd give me a hand when I help my friend do his 5SFTE. If I see him around town i'll see what he has to say and if he can send me his dyno. I remember for a trans he ran a 5S trans with TRD limited slip.

[x_itchy_b_x]

dam maybe thats a problem. i was looking a 7mgte 440cc low indepence. we have high stock. im gunna look up the formula to see what ohm ressiter we will need to put in but these injectors will jsut drop in. right? oh ok great guys so now i need a new turbo AND injectors lol

ps nice find