GT-4 vs GT, extra HP in GT-4 Options

[popstar]

You Guy's know all about weight and power ratio's and stuff like that !

so is a stock GT-4 really any more powerful than stock GT ?

A GT-4 has 250 ish bhp ! but the extra weight of the fwd running gear and the extra effort required to drive four wheels,
over just two wheels a stock GT (SS III) at 210 ish bhp !

i'm probable so wrong but i think the GT has got more power on the road..

So many guy's out here think the GT-4 four is such a quick car, and are supprised when (with my bad driving and such),there's not much in a head to head with a SS III.

I raced one of the lights the other week with no real conclusion due to trafffic and road conditions and care of our cars !!!!!

on paper in a straight drag, what are the facts, who will be quickest ??

anyone know ??

[blackbullet]

i think that when the race is on and the turbo starts to spin... the chances of winning are very different...because turbo's will kick faster and produce more pressure for power and speed... but also the difference in HP... mabe a GT will pick up in low end or mabe not at all but for sure i think it wont catch up at high end.. well thats what i think....have'nt seen a race like that yet...

[doGGy]

i knew a guy who owned a GT4 and his brother owns a SSIII. They raced few times, and the output of this was that of the line GT4 is way faster, but after 200 meter SSIII starts to catch on.. in 1/4 mile boths cars end up almost side by side. Both there stock, and SSIII was automatic, so if it wasnt auto, i think it maybe won, or atleast lost by half car..

This was tested, and both cars there in best condition.

[turboinduction]

You Guy's know all about weight and power ratio's and stuff like that !

      so is a stock GT-4 really any more powerful than stock GT ?

  A GT-4 has 250 ish bhp ! but the extra weight of the fwd running gear and the extra effort required to drive four wheels,
over just two wheels a stock GT (SS III) at 210 ish bhp !

     i'm probable so wrong but i think the GT has got more power on the road..
    
       So many guy's out here think the GT-4 four is such a quick car, and are supprised when (with my bad driving and such),there's not much in a head to head with a SS III.

I raced one of the lights the other week with no real conclusion due to trafffic and road conditions and care of our cars !!!!!

on paper in a straight drag, what are the facts, who will be quickest ??

anyone know ??
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I wont jump on you, because you're obviously new to this.

1. First things first. Since this site is composed of mostly Americans, a "GT" as you put it is a 2.2L 135 crank HP FWD car. If you are referring to a SSIII or any others, please use that term.

2. The SSIII with the Beams engine wasn't available til late, like 1998 if I remember right, whereas the GT4 started its prime back in 94. And even if you got the Beams (you lucky dogs you) you got just shy of 200 HP and roughly 150 in torque. Otherwise, it was 177HP and 142 in torque.

3. The GT4 has just over 250 HP adn 225 in torque. The car is also AWD. Amazing.

4. Despite what all the FWD racers will tell you, a AWD is better. Its better in everything. Racing, drag, drifting, turning, stopping, starting, EVERYTHING. The only thing some might bark at now is the oh-so-great "hey, what about the rolling start." Well, those people can kiss my ass because they dont know how a car launches otherwise they wouldn't bring that up.

Now you can say, hey mister, you dont know what your talking about, my FWD is fast. Well I've got a great depth in FWD, RWD, and AWD. In fact, I've owned a FWD and AWD Eclipse. Now, I say, thats a great example. Theres a car with the same engine, same body, and the only difference between the two is the drivetrain. HANDS DOWN, I'd pick the AWD. Launching a well built car at near redline and not getting anything except a slight chirp of the tires is the most beautiful sound one's ears can admire.

Now for my in-depth anyalsis. You experienced something my friend. Something I'll call VVTi. Why you thought the Beams was faster was the sudden burst of engine once you hit VVT. Thus at a highway speed, stomping on the gas gave the engine enough rpms to use the VVTi power and WAM you were off. Now granting, I love the Beams and love the SSIII. Great car, and oh boy, I'd love for our crappy 7A and 5S's to disappear from the US shores, but NOTHING will top the GT4 except a different car.

The end

-Ti

(also when I refer to you, I'm referring to the reader until the final paragraph where I talk about your drive in a SSIII)

This post has been edited by turboinduction: Dec 30, 2004 - 12:08 PM

[doGGy]

1. First things first. Since this site is composed of mostly Americans, a "GT" as you put it is a 2.2L 135 crank HP FWD car. If you are referring to a SSIII or any others, please use that term.

Read what he wrote

A GT-4 has 250 ish bhp ! but the extra weight of the fwd running gear and the extra effort required to drive four wheels,
over just two wheels a stock GT (SS III) at 210 ish bhp !

This post has been edited by doGGy: Dec 30, 2004 - 4:05 AM

[turboinduction]

1. First things first. Since this site is composed of mostly Americans, a "GT" as you put it is a 2.2L 135 crank HP FWD car. If you are referring to a SSIII or any others, please use that term.

Read what he wrote

A GT-4 has 250 ish bhp ! but the extra weight of the fwd running gear and the extra effort required to drive four wheels,
over just two wheels a stock GT (SS III) at 210 ish bhp !

And yes the Japan SSIII has 210 hp. And black top Beams (found in caldinas) has 220 hp.
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No prob, I'm just referring to the title

Really, I thought the red top beams in the SSIII only has 197? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and sorry.

-Ti

[doGGy]

No Ti, you are right... i was wrong ... red top 197 and black top 210...

I did a little research but beams did came with LSD...

1. First things first. Since this site is composed of mostly Americans, a "GT" as you put it is a 2.2L 135 crank HP FWD car. If you are referring to a SSIII or any others, please use that term.

Read what he wrote

A GT-4 has 250 ish bhp ! but the extra weight of the fwd running gear and the extra effort required to drive four wheels,
over just two wheels a stock GT (SS III) at 210 ish bhp !

And yes the Japan SSIII has 210 hp. And black top Beams (found in caldinas) has 220 hp.
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No prob, I'm just referring to the title

Really, I thought the red top beams in the SSIII only has 197? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and sorry.

-Ti
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[97sccelica]

eh

who drives stock?

a gt4 is a turbo car, and simple mods add big power to turbo cars.

it wouldnt even have to cost money, unbolt the exhaust at the downpipe on the GT4 and it will easily be faster than any NA fwd celica with similar mods(unbolted exhaust, lol)

[creis]

I think its probibly a close race but with good drivers the gt-4 could probibly take it, I think that off the line the gt-4 with the awd, even though it takes more to push them all, then just two you'll be making up for that intraction and the extra 50hp.

you gata remember stock for stock the ssIII has no chance, the gt-4 govener is higher then the ssIII so even if the ssiii gets ahead its not gana hold it in the long run. (of cource the top spead means nothing on a short drag, but when there is no definate start/finish it means everything.

[macavely]

well being that i have never driven eith a 6gc-GT-4 or a 6gc-(SS-III)... luck SOB that have....i really cant say which one will win in a race.. but the frist post makes perfect sence to me....weight does play a part .... and i think doggy is the only one here that has show any real prof to back up the frist post.... (i take his word on what ever he says on these boards) ....

[popstar]

Thanks guy's

it's still not answered the question on paper, but yeah it was pritty much as doGGy said, but we cooled it at 165km/h.... the road were wet from melted snow and not in good repair as most are over here...

2 turboinduction.
i don't know if it was a red top or black i never spoke with the driver of the SS III but it was a late model 'beams' imported, so i think it was the 210 bhp...
I was driving 'my' 1986 GT-Four (with winter tires)

As for what cars are called in the US and how there called in the rest of the world, sorry,
but for some of us out here just driving celica and not in the know .... maybe someone can make a break down of the different cars and engins through the US, Japan and the export market 'so we're all singing of the same song sheet' in furture. this could be something very usefull to a lot people looking on this site !!!

An lastly i might be new to this site but i've had 4 different celica in four different generations over the last 18 years.......... and i still love my first twin cam 20lt lift back 2nd gen !!!!

This post has been edited by popstar: Dec 30, 2004 - 6:09 AM

[doGGy]

Celicas came ONLY with red top beams engine, black top can be found in Caldina's (Toyota Avensis in Europe) in japan, euro Avensis never had anything like this, mostly they came as ECO versions only...

Thanks guy's

  it's still not answered the question on paper, but yeah it was pritty much as doGGy said, but we cooled it at 165km/h.... the road were wet from melted snow and not in good repair as most are over here...

2 turboinduction.
i don't know if it was a red top or black i never spoke with the driver of the SS III but it was a late model 'beams' imported, so i think it was the 210 bhp...
            I was driving 'my' 1986 GT-Four (with winter tires) 

As for what cars are called in the US and how there called in the rest of the world, sorry,
but for some of us out here just driving celica and not in the know .... maybe someone can make a break down of the different cars and engins through the US, Japan and the export market 'so we're all singing of the same song sheet' in furture. this could be something very usefull to a lot people looking on this site !!!
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[popstar]

Cheers Doggy

where do you get all this info from !!!!!!!

whatever it was a fun little race, and i'll wait for the summer to prove what my babe will really do

[Jehuty]

I can think of one big disadvantage to awd taht may have affected your race. Given that teh wheels will not spin under normal conditions, something has to take the pain. Launching under full power the only choice one has is dividing the damage between the clutch and the rest of the drivetrain. So many people would not be inclined to do an ail out launch in their awd car. I know I wouldn't.

[turboinduction]

I can think of one big disadvantage to awd taht may have affected your race. Given that teh wheels will not spin under normal conditions, something has to take the pain. Launching under full power the only choice one has is dividing the damage between the clutch and the rest of the drivetrain. So many people would not be inclined to do an ail out launch in their awd car. I know I wouldn't.
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Take the pain? The thing that takes the pain is the road. That and the transmission. However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break. I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin. I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

I just dont see how so many people are bais about an AWD without owning one. An AWD is the biggest beast ever on the streets. The reason the Celica went AWD was because the FWD model couldn't handle the power of the 3SGTE. Simple as that.

-Ti

[Kwanza26]

I wouldn't worry about launching an AWD car... if you can't do... you shouldn't be trying to.
Overall, the BEAMS is an overrated engine IMO. It was rated at 200ish hp only to compete with the Integra Type-R at the time. It's probably closer to 180-190 hp. VVT-i also is not what some Toyota enthusiasts are describing it as. You don't "feel" VVT-i kick in... it doesn't create any serious advantage aside from a better mid-ranged torque band. It doesn't add power. VVT-i works like a computer controlled camgear on the in take cam that retards and advances the intake cam timing depending on rpm, load, etc... The BEAMS blacktop had VVT-i on both intake and exhaust, so it is a much better engine, and I'm sure the head also underwent a bunch of changes. Another thing you gotta consider is weight. The FWD SSIII is gonna be about 500 pounds lighter, which will make it a threat. It's really a driver's race between these two cars, and it's really a matter of opinion which is better than the other.
And for those who like to guess about AWD... unless you've driven one... don't try to guess. They are perhaps some of the most dangerous sports cars (dangerous as in competition-wise... not safety) on the road and can handle most drivetrain set-ups in any situation.

[recycle]

when u go side by side with magic at 150kph and he hits the gas and u wonder y u are stoping u understand what gt4 is all about....
TORQUE

[DamDirtyApes]

when u go side by side with magic at 150kph and he hits the gas and u wonder y u are stoping u understand what gt4 is all about....
TORQUE
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speaking from experience ?

[recycle]

when u go side by side with magic at 150kph and he hits the gas and u wonder y u are stoping u understand what gt4 is all about....
TORQUE
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speaking from experience ?
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always

[Magic]

Guys this is wrong,you are comparing 2 cars that are coming from 2 different categories.
Of course the the bhp cannoct be covered by the extra weight,if you were talking about a Honda Integra GSR comparing to a Honda Prelude H22 then you have a point but comparing the GT4 with SS3 (GOD HELP ME ) then its wrong.
You cant imagine how many Celicas i am driving DAILY (SS1,SS2,SS3 and GT4) and of course we are talking about 2 completly DIFFERENT cars.
I will not say more on this beacuse the thought its not correct.

Friendly

Magic

[erics1one]

Anyone have the weight specs for these models we're referring to?

[redtcel]

2 turboinduction.
i don't know if it was a red top or black i never spoke with the driver of the SS III but it was a late model 'beams' imported, so i think it was the 210 bhp...
            I was driving 'my' 1986 GT-Four (with winter tires) 

you were driving your 86 gt-4 with winter tires? the 86 gt 4 wasnt rated at 250 horse was it? wasnt it more like 225 or less? in fact the 86 is the fourth gen so a celica with a beams motor and your 86 gt4 are going to be very similar in power because the power rating on the older gt4's were lower. if it were a 94-99 gt-4 it would have pulled a lot harder. am i right or am i completely off the mark here?

[saleeka]

gt-fours debued in 87 i thought, and all the 4th gens make 185 PS (approx 183 hp)

[Jehuty]

Take the pain?  The thing that takes the pain is the road.  That and the transmission.  However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break.  I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin.  I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

I just dont see how so many people are bais about an AWD without owning one.  An AWD is the biggest beast ever on the streets.  The reason the Celica went AWD was because the FWD model couldn't handle the power of the 3SGTE.  Simple as that.

-Ti
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The clutch, the tranny, 3 diffs and 4 shafts. Im talking about an all out launch here. The parts are strong, but not indestructable, and even if they don't break immediatly, there is some accelerated wear associated with this kind of treatment. I wouldn't do it to my car! And I think many feel the same.

From my experience, the really fast launches from awd cars are produced from hi-rpm clutch dumps. And Ive heard plenty of stories about transmissions getting ruined under these conditions, although Ive never had the pleasure of seeing it in person. =) Even new evo owners are busting halfshafts here and there.

Somewhere between a baby start and a full on dump you can still get a good start, but it takes skill, and still isn't as fierce as just abusing the drivetrain.

[Kwanza26]

Anyone have the weight specs for these models we're referring to?
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Estimates are pretty easy to make. Consider the ST185 Alltrac weighed about 3200-3400 pounds and the 5th gen GTS weighing about 2700-2800... a weight estimate can be made. The SSIII should weigh no more than a USDM GT (~2600) so it'll be logical to assume the ST205 should weigh in the 3000-3200 pound neighborhood... maybe a little bit lighter.

[erics1one]

So weight reduction on a GT, with a beefed up 3SGTE, and you're out in front?

[Kwanza26]

So weight reduction on a GT, with a beefed up 3SGTE, and you're out in front?
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No... real-world situations are different.

[maikl]

hi magic NO COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr_E]

ST205 is significantly *lighter* than a ST185.

And on a real road, I'm sorry to say that the SS-III wouldn't see which way it went.

From a rolling second gear pull a 2ZZ powered 7th Gen is close in a straight line. Good power and low weight and transmission losses.

Again, chuck in some corners and you can't argue with AWD poise and turbo shove.

[popstar]

Sorry guy's

tipo big time it's a 1996 model 205

sorry about that, check the photos on site .....

[_rz_]

Hi eveybody. Thoudht I'll add my 2 cents to this discussion.

First of - you DO feel VVTi kick in. At least I did. At about 5-6K RPM you really feel it GO.
Then the specs SS-I/SS-II/SS-III/GT-FOUR

Drive: FF/FF/FF/FULL 4WD
Transmission: 5 speed manual/5 speed manual/5 speed manual/5 speed manual
Engine volume (Cubic sentimeters): 1998 / 1998 / 1998 / 1998
Frame: E-ST202-BLMGK / E-ST202-BLMVF / E-ST202-BLMZF / E-ST205-BLMVZ
Price in Tokyo, Yen (x1000) 1813 (~$15100) / 2181 (~$18100) / 2448 (~$20400) / 3302 (~$27500)

Dimensions:

Exterior: (LengthхWidthхHeight), mm 4435 x 1750 x 1305 / 4435 x 1750 x 1305 / 4435 x 1750 x 1305 / 4420 x 1750 x 1305
Interior: (LengthхWidthхHeight), mm 1735 x 1450 x 1100 / 1735 x 1450 x 1100 / 1735 x 1450 x 1100 / 1735 x 1450 x 1100
Wheel base: mm 2535 / 2535 / 2535 / 2535
Distance between front and rear wheels: mm 1510, 1490 / 1510,1490 / 1510,1490 / 1510,1485
Clearence: mm 145 / 145 / 145 / 145
Weight: kg 1160 / 1200 / 1210 / 1390
Turn radius: m 5.2 / 5.2 / 5.5 / 5.6
Fuel tank volume: liters 60 / 60 / 60 / 68

Engine

Volume (cubic centimiters): 1998 / 1998 / 1998 / 1998
Engine type: 3S-FE / 3S-GE / 3S-GE / 3S-GTE
Bhp@rpm: 140 ps (102.97 kw) @ 6000 rpm / 200 ps (147.10 kw)@7000 rpm / 200 ps (147.10 kw)@7000 rpm / 255 ps (187.55 kw)@6000 rpm
Torque: N*m*(kg*m)@rpm: 19.0 kg*m (186.33 N*m)@4400 rpm / 21.0 kg*m (205.94 N*m)@6000 rpm / 21.0 kg*m (205.94 N*m)@6000 rpm / 31.0 kg*m (304.01 N*m)@4000 rpm
Killograms per HP: 8.29 / 6 / 6.05 / 5.45

Engine type Serial 4 cylinder DOHC16 valve / Serial 4 cylinder DOHC16 valve / Serial 4 cylinder DOHC16 valve / Serial 4 cylinder DOHC16 valve / IC turbo
Additional engine info: -- / VVT-i / VVT-i / --
Fuel delivery: EFI / EFI / EFI / EFI
Turbo: No / No / No / Turbo with intercooler
Fuel type: Unleaded regular gasoline / Unleaded premium gasoline / Unleaded premium gasoline / Unleaded premium gasoline
Compression: 9.5 / 11 / 11 / 8.5
Piston diameter: mm 86 / 86 / 86 / 86
Stroke (???): mm 86 / 86 / 86 / 86
Fuel consumption (City), liters/100 km (new car): 7.3 / 7.9 / 7.9 / 9.4
Highway, liters/100 km (new car):

Front wheels: 195/65r14 89s / 205/55r15 87v / 205/55r15 87v / 215/50R16 90V
Rear wheels: 195/65r14 89s / 205/55r15 87v / 205/55r15 87v / 215/50R16 90V
Front brakes: Ventilated disk / Ventilated disk / Ventilated disk / Ventilated disk
Rear brakes: Disk / Disk / Disk / Ventilated disk
Suspension type: Strut type coil spring / Strut type coil spring / Strut type coil spring / Strut type coil spring
Rear suspension: Strut type coil spring / Strut type coil spring / Strut type coil spring / Strut type coil spring

ABS: yes / yes/ yes / yes
LSD: no / no / yes / yes

AC: Manual / Full automatic / Full automatic / Full automatic

Sorry for my bad english or any mistakes in translation.

So as you can all see the GT-FOUR has half a killogram of weight less per HP from its closest competitor the SSIII.

So Peter don't worry you have a great car. But we can trade cars if you want

[recycle]

so from what u are saying an ss2 is faster than ss3

[_rz_]

so from what u are saying an ss2 is faster than ss3
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Hmmm..... nice point. We'll try racing all of those cars together on the next meet and film a small video. But theres a chance that a SSII is faster than a SSIII but when you start to think about LSD and stuff

[Kwanza26]

Hi eveybody. Thoudht I'll add my 2 cents to this discussion.

First of - you DO feel VVTi kick in. At least I did. At about 5-6K RPM you really feel it GO.
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Good info... I'll have to add this to my files... ;]

HOWEVER... you do not feel VVT-i "kick"... VVT-i is on as soon as 2000 rpms and is constantly on and adjusting... ;] Pulling harder on the top-end is the normal action of a sporty engine.

[97sccelica]

Take the pain?  The thing that takes the pain is the road.  That and the transmission.  However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break.  I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin.  I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

I just dont see how so many people are bais about an AWD without owning one.  An AWD is the biggest beast ever on the streets.  The reason the Celica went AWD was because the FWD model couldn't handle the power of the 3SGTE.  Simple as that.

-Ti
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The clutch, the tranny, 3 diffs and 4 shafts. Im talking about an all out launch here. The parts are strong, but not indestructable, and even if they don't break immediatly, there is some accelerated wear associated with this kind of treatment. I wouldn't do it to my car! And I think many feel the same.

From my experience, the really fast launches from awd cars are produced from hi-rpm clutch dumps. And Ive heard plenty of stories about transmissions getting ruined under these conditions, although Ive never had the pleasure of seeing it in person. =) Even new evo owners are busting halfshafts here and there.

Somewhere between a baby start and a full on dump you can still get a good start, but it takes skill, and still isn't as fierce as just abusing the drivetrain.
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a quick slip launch will get nearly the same results as a dump launch and it only puts more stress on the part thats cheaper to replace(clutch $300, tranny $3000)

[popstar]

Sorry for my bad english or any mistakes in translation.

So as you can all see the GT-FOUR has half a killogram of weight less per HP from its closest competitor the SSIII.

So Peter don't worry you have a great car. But we can trade cars if you want     
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Hey buddy, don't worry about the translation...
it's better than mine is the other way

yeah that's the info i wanted guy's, now we all know the numbers for 'stock' cars, as trying to work out anything with cars that have been tuned is just not going to happen.....

yeah Zhenya, you can drive my baby, no problems at all with that, but lets what for the summer to arrange the promised race

[Lenny_mc]

ive got an ss111 and there is no way that it will keep up with a gt4
the vvt sure does kick in at about 4500 and you can feel it (kinda like a 2 stroke bike powerband).
0 - 60 times for ss111 are 6.7, gt4 is about 5.5 i think. unrestricted (all jap cars are limited to 112 mph) the ss3 should do about 145. think the gt4 is 155 mph.

the ss111 is a fast car, but not as fast as the gt4

[Lenny_mc]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)

@ rz - the ss2 had the same 3sge motor as the gt model with about 177 bhp. The ss3 has the beams motor which is 197 bhp. both have superstrut suspension (SS) as does the gt4.

[Lenny_mc]

the beams motor is a great motor and im sure with some work it would kick ass but even with the ptw difference the gt4 will kick its ass.

Actually toyota used the beams motor as their base motor for the corolla wrc cars.

[Mr_E]

Actually toyota used the beams motor as their base motor for the corolla wrc cars.
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They did indeed.

SSIIIs get superstruts as standard. They were an expensive option on SSIIs

[popstar]

Mr E or anyone out there ?

when where the last GT-Fours issued mines a '96' (got it right this time ) did toyota keep up production in to '99' ?

[Mr_E]

1999 was the last of the ST205s I believe. Post 1998 was JDM only I think. Projector lights and stuff.

[Kwanza26]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)
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No... but I have much more experience than probably anyone else here. I've driven just about every single new Toyota, which ALL incorporate VVT-i. I build VTEC engines and I KNOW how VVT-i works. It doesn't turn on at a certain rpm. VVT-i is constantly on, hence the "i" for "intelligence". It alters cam timing for the optimal torque, like you say, but it doesn't add "kick" in the upper powerband. Kick is VTEC. Kick is VVTLi. Both VTEC and VVTLi have as much as 60-70 Horsepower jumps between primary lobes and Lift lobes. VVT-i only advances or retards cam timing depending on throttle position, load, rpms, etc. The increased pull you describe is NORMAL for a sporty engine. 16V 4AGEs do it without VVT-i... so it has NOTHING to do with VVT-i... ;]

[turboinduction]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)
[right][snapback]230993[/snapback][/right]

No... but I have much more experience than probably anyone else here. I've driven just about every single new Toyota, which ALL incorporate VVT-i. I build VTEC engines and I KNOW how VVT-i works. It doesn't turn on at a certain rpm. VVT-i is constantly on, hence the "i" for "intelligence". It alters cam timing for the optimal torque, like you say, but it doesn't add "kick" in the upper powerband. Kick is VTEC. Kick is VVTLi. Both VTEC and VVTLi have as much as 60-70 Horsepower jumps between primary lobes and Lift lobes. VVT-i only advances or retards cam timing depending on throttle position, load, rpms, etc. The increased pull you describe is NORMAL for a sporty engine. 16V 4AGEs do it without VVT-i... so it has NOTHING to do with VVT-i... ;]
[right][snapback]231037[/snapback][/right]

God I love Lift

-Ti

[Negative]

[/quote]
Take the pain? The thing that takes the pain is the road. That and the transmission. However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break. I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin. I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

[right][snapback]228226[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

I'm not trying to get in on the rest of this conversation just wanted to add my experience to this statement:

I personally witnessed a brand new WRX break his drive shaft and shut down the motor because he tried to launch at redline. The kid was stupid and his daddy had just bought the car for him that weekend - so there should be some accountablity for stupidity (I like the way that sounds - gonna have to remember that one the next time I'm writing lyrics for my band ).
Now then I do believe Toyota makes a better quality Product than Subaru but the above blanket statement about AWD's is too absolute. Anything can break.
Just my .02.

[Negative]

BTW - VVTi does kick around 4500RPM - even my '02 Camry does it - you can feel it. What you may be thinking of is the way better kick that you get from a VVTL-i and yes it is very nice. Still slower than my 6th gen though - proven not hype. Oh and for proof of experience I have owned 5 Celicas now including the Celica/Supra ('84), an '88 Al-trac and two 6th gen GT's. The '86 ST-185 Swap I had was by far the fastest so far with the exception of the Al-trac which was about dead even until you hit curves and then was the fastest.
But whatever.

[Kwanza26]

BTW - VVTi does kick around 4500RPM - even my '02 Camry does it - you can feel it. What you may be thinking of is the way better kick that you get from a VVTL-i and yes it is very nice. Still slower than my 6th gen though - proven not hype. Oh and for proof of experience I have owned 5 Celicas now including the Celica/Supra ('84), an '88 Al-trac and two 6th gen GT's. The '86 ST-185 Swap I had was by far the fastest so far with the exception of the Al-trac which was about dead even until you hit curves and then was the fastest.
But whatever.
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Umm... no. You gotta get you gotta get your facts straight. VVT-i is a constant mechanism, as in no "on-off" sort of deal. What you describe as a crossover point in the rpm band and VVT worked like that, NOT VVT-i. As far as I know... the ONLY Toyota engines to use the early VVT system were the 4AGE 20Vs. Neither system was designed to make power (VVT and VVT-i). They were designed to improve response and torque. What you guys are "feeling" as kicks, is normal in that rpm range, but I tend to think some of you simply want to compare VVT-i to VTEC... which are NOT the same. VVT-i is rarely felt because it's almost always on. VVT on the other hand can be slightly felt, but it's rather mundane...

Read this for more info...
http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm

Oh... and if you wish to impress me with experience, do so with facts and your knowledge... not opinion. People can say whatever they want, but their experience shows only when they can spit out facts... ;]

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Jan 7, 2005 - 8:14 PM

[turboinduction]

Take the pain? The thing that takes the pain is the road. That and the transmission. However, since the AWD tranny was meant for that, it wont break. I've never seen or heard of anyone in a AWD that broke their trannies because the wheels dont spin. I guess in my experience, I'd be more worried about burning the clutch out in a FWD trying to keep its tires on the road.

^^ I wrote that. And oh boy did people like to jump at it.

Ok, lets re-read it.

Did I say "I never saw anyone break an AWD under ANY situation" No. That WRX driver is a moron. I can also say that rotors dont have redlines, but I'm sure a moron with a rx7 can eventually break the no redline limit. I've owned AWD's. Launching a AWD at the proper max torque (NOT FRICKING REDLINE) and settin the car back without spinning the tires is normal. Nothing is gonna break. Its just as 'dangerous' as launching a FWD or RWD. Wheel spin doesn't release pressure. Spinning the tires releases pressure. So... If the tires are spinning out of control on the pavement making smoke or the tires are gripping and throwing the entire car forward like a bat outa hell - the effect is the same. You CANNOT break a AWD driftshaft because theres no 'wheelspin'. You CAN break it however, its not invincable. But before anyone else with no experience besides "my friends dad's got one" says anything, THINK.

Also, to add to Kwanza's battle in the last 2 pages. I said Kick - I did. What I meant was the feeling of power in the upper range. Kick comes from Lift. The reason you feel it 'kick' is because you are used to a sucky ass car. Sucky ass cars have power in the beginning through the mid RPM range and die. VVTi keeps the power going. So at 4500 when a normal car of the same attributes dies, your car is surprising and has oogles of power and oh boy its so fast. VVTi is great, but as stated creates no jump effect. What I meant by kick, again - since I may have caused this all, was the feeling of VVTi in the upper range since the lower range its less effective.

-Ti

[richgt4]

Well that took some time to read through. Happy New Year to you all by the way

I've got a ST205 & can confidently say that stock for stock, it would feel as though you'd be going backwards if you were to challenge one either on the road or track.

It's a road going rally car for god's sake

My one has only got a HKS filter fitted & last time it was put on the rolling road it pushed out 278bhp, boost as standard.

Ta,

Rich

[soundmangt4]

I personally witnessed a brand new WRX break his drive shaft and shut down the motor because he tried to launch at redline

Firstly the Subaru parts are not even in the same league as Toyota parts, and a good example is that a good friend of mine has a Scooby with full exhaust from the block back, and a full ecu remap to 1.3 bar, and he also has a hybrid turbo which he can't fit right now because the gearbox is only good up to 300bhp, and above that 3rd gear is apparantly likely to be sheared!! For more power he'd need to buy and fit an STi box.
However, my 1992 ST185 RC gearbox is good for over 500bhp no problem. How do I know this I hear you ask, well Fensport's legendary Corrola running over 600bhp now, runs a 3SGTE with ST205 running gear and an RC box. He is only now starting to lunch gearboxes and he is running sub 11 sec 1/4 miles times.
I personally ran a 13.7 at 100.8 mph running totally stock clutch, gearbox and diffs etc. Anyone who runs redline and side steps the clutch in the dry will firstly kill the clutch, and then before the gearbox breaks on a GT-Four, you will light up the wheels.
I do think a stock SSIII will give a stock 185 a run for it's money with a rolling start though, but an ST205 is a different kettle of fish. Also a small boost increase in a ST185 will mean the SSIII is a small dot in the rear view mirror.

Rob Hughes
Sunny England
JDM ST185 RC
SQM 13.7 @ 100.8 mph

[Insanity-74]

I`ve gotta agree with soundmangt4, the GT SSIII would not be able to give much of a challenge to a GT4, I`ve driven both, and own a GT4 st205 and was disapointed with the SSIII after driving it around for a couple of hours while I was shopping about for a new Celica, so brought the GT-4

As for launching a AWD/4WD car from redline, not good if you want your car to live long, I`ve seen a brand new Evo (less than 100 miles on the clock) destroy its gearbox doing this, actual pieces of it on the floor. I shouldnt imagine it would do too much good to a GT-4 either, I certainly wouldnt do it, no matter how tempting it is

[Mr_E]

I actually know very few instances of a ST205 having a transmission issue. They appear to be *very* strong.

I still wouldn't wind her up and sidestep the clutch every day......

[popstar]

1999 was the last of the ST205s I believe. Post 1998 was JDM only I think. Projector lights and stuff.
[right][snapback]231024[/snapback][/right]

Thank's Mr E

Any idea how available the '99' model's are ?
I checked the Jap' auction sites and haven't seen any, you have any idae of a 'ball park' price on one......

As i'm thinking to either replace mine with a newer model, or just spend 5k in tunning ???

And what does the JDM stand for ? i just imported a ST 205 but see posts stating JDM, USDM, Class A railly ?????

[richgt4]

1999 was the last of the ST205s I believe. Post 1998 was JDM only I think. Projector lights and stuff.
[right][snapback]231024[/snapback][/right]

Thank's Mr E

Any idea how available the '99' model's are ?
I checked the Jap' auction sites and haven't seen any, you have any idae of a 'ball park' price on one......

As i'm thinking to either replace mine with a newer model, or just spend 5k in tunning ???

And what does the JDM stand for ? i just imported a ST 205 but see posts stating JDM, USDM, Class A railly ?????
[right][snapback]231941[/snapback][/right]

That would mean Jamanesd Domestic Market (JDM/Imports) & USDomestic Market (USDM).

Rich

[popstar]

Thanks Rich

[Mr_E]

I don't know how many 98/99 spec cars there are. I'd guess at not many, as everyone bought subarus or Evos......

[popstar]

I don't know how many 98/99 spec cars there are. I'd guess at not many, as everyone bought subarus or Evos......
[right][snapback]232033[/snapback][/right]

thanks then...

i'll just have to keep looking, and see what i find........

saw an imported 97 GT-4 in moscow for $ 14,500 on the net yesterday, with only 70,000km on the clock...... might have to have a look

[_rz_]

@ kwanza - you ever driven a beams? the whole point of vvt is that the cam profile is aletered somehow to give better low end drive with top end performance. the vvt on the beams kicks in at 4500 +_ 200 rpm and you certainly can feel it. Hell under half normal acce;leration in the wet the thing will spin up when it hits 4500. under hard acceleration in the wet it wil spin up in 3rd when it hits the vvt (at about 75 mph)
[right][snapback]230993[/snapback][/right]

No... but I have much more experience than probably anyone else here. I've driven just about every single new Toyota, which ALL incorporate VVT-i. I build VTEC engines and I KNOW how VVT-i works. It doesn't turn on at a certain rpm. VVT-i is constantly on, hence the "i" for "intelligence". It alters cam timing for the optimal torque, like you say, but it doesn't add "kick" in the upper powerband. Kick is VTEC. Kick is VVTLi. Both VTEC and VVTLi have as much as 60-70 Horsepower jumps between primary lobes and Lift lobes. VVT-i only advances or retards cam timing depending on throttle position, load, rpms, etc. The increased pull you describe is NORMAL for a sporty engine. 16V 4AGEs do it without VVT-i... so it has NOTHING to do with VVT-i... ;]
[right][snapback]231037[/snapback][/right]

Yep, sorry for my mistake kwanza. When I was talking about kick I was describing my expirience driving a 7th gen GTS and it does have VVTLi so you are completly right.

[mmorg3053]

No disrespect to any non GT4 owners but to be honest the non turbo celicas get wasted. There is none of this getting off the line better or catching up at a higher speed or the GT4 is not pulling away anymore stuff . The GT4 (bear in mind im talking about a ST205) gets off the line better and WILL continue to pull away all the way to the top speed. I hope I dont offend anyone by what i have said but lets face it, the GT4 was built for acceleration, its a rally car!
But I do think it will be a lot closer in with a ST185 as they are very heavy and less powerful than a ST205

[Supersprynt]

Yeah this is true I dont kno why this is debated.

Except im non-gt4 and I could probably put up a good fight.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Jan 13, 2005 - 2:24 PM

[Lenny_mc]

my bad kwanza. i totally misunderstood the vvt-i system. The power certainly does kick in about 4500 tho.

mmmorg - the st185 v st202 beams - would be a close one i think. never had the opportunity to check that tho

[maikl]

yes!!!!! it realy does kick around 4000rpm!!!!! well my engine does...... and you can feel it!!!!! it's not like v-tec maiking noise and everything it just kicks!!!!!

[Kwanza26]

Whatever makes you guys feel better. You've already agreed VVT-i isn't what you thought it was... yet you still want to go on about "kicks"... You ever realized that is normal with sporty engines? It's not something that needs emphasis. That, or you haven't ever driven something that really "kicks"...

Oh well, I'm done with this pointless discussion. It's pretty much agreed that the GT4 can out accelerate an SSIII, but I'll put my money on the SSIII on a track. Power isn't everything.

[Hanyo]

Oh well, I'm done with this pointless discussion.  It's pretty much agreed that the GT4 can out accelerate an SSIII, but I'll put my money on the SSIII on a track.  Power isn't everything.
[right][snapback]233793[/snapback][/right]

but what about the awd system? (for the track)

[Magic]

Kwanza26 Did you ever drive a 4WD sports car???First time i hear somebody talking about such an issue FWD vs AWD on the track,for 1/4 ok but on the track???????!!!!!!!I am confused guys!!!!

[Kwanza26]

Kwanza26 Did you ever drive a 4WD sports car???First time i hear somebody talking about such an issue FWD vs AWD on the track,for 1/4 ok but on the track???????!!!!!!!I am confused guys!!!!
[right][snapback]233802[/snapback][/right]

It's not a matter of AWD vs FWD. It's weight and power. The biggest factor would be the GT4 is much heavier, and is turbo charged. It may be fast, but Celica guys here act like it's the best thing since sliced bread. Unless you've sat behind the wheel of a bunch of different cars in race situations, you can't assume how a car will handle in the low-speed tight corners. I have driven turbo AWD cars before, all of them. WRX's, Evos, Alltracs, DSMs... all of them. Let me ask you this... what makes you think a GT4 can out-handle a lighter weight n/a car in the tight corners? The power difference is small enough, IMO, that a well driven SSIII can take a GT4. That's all I'm saying.

[Magic]

Kwanza26 my previous cars,ALL JDM and heavy modified with many proves:

JDM Honda Prelude H22A 2.2 Vtec
JDM Impreza WRX Version 4
JDM TOYTA GT4

I am the owner of the Celica Club Cyprus with more than 250 Celicas including (SS1,SS2,SS3,GT4,5th Gen and 7th Gen) ALL JDM not USDM and TRUST me you HAVENT even close to the 1/10 of the Celicas that i have drive.

I am 28 years old born in the racing cars (my father was a professional Rally driver for more than 20 years) and i dont undertsand why i am continue this discussion with you and many other drivers.

We are talking about SSIII and GT4 in the Track????????????????????

I think a responsible administrator of this site should close this post.

Friendly

[Mr_E]

The power difference is small enough, IMO, that a well driven SSIII can take a GT4.  That's all I'm saying.
[right][snapback]233906[/snapback][/right]

Power is not everything, agreed. And the Four loses a lot of power to the wheels due to the complex drivetrain, so it's closer than most people would think from a roll in ao straight line.

Where it slaughters the SSIII is the ability to get on the power earlier in the corners, so by the time the SSIII driver is past the apex and putting the power down, the Four is already on hard boost and pulling away.

It's also got brakes that are likely to last more than 3 laps....

[Kwanza26]

Kwanza26 my previous cars,ALL JDM and heavy modified with many proves:

JDM Honda Prelude H22A 2.2 Vtec
JDM Impreza WRX Version 4
JDM TOYTA GT4

I am the owner of the Celica Club Cyprus with more than 250 Celicas including (SS1,SS2,SS3,GT4,5th Gen and 7th Gen) ALL JDM not USDM and TRUST me you HAVENT even close to the 1/10 of the Celicas that i have drive.

I am 28 years old born in the racing cars (my father was a professional Rally driver for more than 20 years) and i dont undertsand why i am continue this discussion with you and many other drivers.

We are talking about SSIII and GT4 in the Track????????????????????

I think a responsible administrator of this site should close this post.

Friendly
[right][snapback]234022[/snapback][/right]

Buddy... you know NOTHING of what I do... so why are you even tripping? Don't assume. I didn't say anything towards you personally so what's with you questioning me? If anything, you just talk the talk... You guys have this worshipping attitude towards the GT4, when in actuality, it's only a decently good chassis, hence why it only lasted as it did in WRC. I've been around the block and back again when it comes to track racing, AutoX, Solo, Pro Solo, even had a few Club runs, and of course, drag. I may be young, but this is the sh!t I grew up around. My dad raced, my uncle raced, lots of my family members race. You can talk all you want about how great the GT4 is and how we Americans know little because we haven't driven an ST205, etc... but the truth is in the chassis design. You're not gonna easily convince me that an ST205 will simply slaughter an SSIII based on power and drivetrain. I, unlike others, know far better than that. The SSIII will take the corner entries almost everytime. The GT4 has Awesome brakes as Mr_E says, but it's a tank. It weighs what... almost 500 pounds more than an SSIII? The weight difference in a tight track will equalize things. This is EASY to predict. If you have as much experience as you say... you'd agree. Mr_E agrees to some degree, and I agree with his statement that the GT4 will always catch up at the corner exit because of the turbo... but depending on the track, this can be nullified. Think about it before you start worshipping again. Same chassis, same suspension. SSIII gives up only about 50-60 hp and torque... but makes up for it with lightness. Corner entry speeds and n/a response is far better than all-out power dude... especially when the cars are so close.

[spunky393]

I don't know why i have the impulse, but i've honestly never really believed in the ST205. Kwanza, and anybody else, if you choose to believe me or not, i don't really care, but i've always had the same onsights as kwanza is talking about, and i was thinking the same things kwanza's last post said throughout this entire spieal. This is really retarted. I don't care if you think you're a real tuner or not, kwanza's a real tuner, and by-goli, i'll be confident enough to say the same for myself. Some of the things i see on this site or just blown out of proportion. Some people talk out of there mouths with the money, and then some people talk from inside the engine bay, who would you rather believe?

[Magic]

for all you GT4 owners lets built an "Army" with our "TANKS"



Last post

[recycle]

Kwanza26 my friend u are talking bull sh it . EVERY SINGLE TIME i tried to catch up magics or tufys gt4 IN ANY ROAD i could only see the rear lights getting smaller. and dont start telling me that i have an SS2 and not than SS3 cos both cars have the same fcuking beams engine.

when i drove a gt4 the main trick about it its the way it sticks on the road. almost never have to really slow down on a corner and that is cos of the 4wd. to turn on the same speed with my car i will meet very closely any field pole or building is on the opposite side of the road

further more i will agree with magic that this i topic with no actual meaning cos u have absolutely no experience with st205


This post has been edited by recycle: Jan 15, 2005 - 8:41 PM

[recycle]

and cos u mentioned the short wrc life of st205 let me tell u that the toyota was banned from wrc cos a patent they made with a belt enlarging the opening of the turbo at high revs.

[Kwanza26]

Hahah... you guys can talk all you want. It doesn't bother me. I deal with people like you on a daily basis and I let them have their ego. It's no big deal to me. It's the blind leading the blind. When it comes down to it, experience is what counts. Experience comes from seeing things, doing thing, and not letting some super ego hold you to their ideals. There are other great cars out there...

First off... I'm not talking ****. I said something VERY basic (SSIII can take the GT4 on a tight track)... and you (the people who worship the ST205) just can't handle it. That really got magic's panties all up in a bunch for some reason. On the other hand, Mr_E seemed to not think my comment was something, shall we say, *unthinkable* *GASP*! I could care less. You can give your opinions all day long... but you've yet to say anything but express your opinions. No facts, no reasons. I at least gave my reasons for what I said. I already know how magic thinks, and considering you all are in a little "group"... it's probably the same ideal all around (with exception to neoklis... I still have some respect for him).

To close... you guys are fighting a fools battle. I doubt you want to compare resumes against me. I rarely see any of you write up anything insightful about engines and performance. I don't see you guys, with your VAST JDM ST205 knowledge provide anything aside from fancy pictures of cyprus meets. If what I said was so stupid and unthinkable... why is it that only your bunch are attacking me? I know there are other members out there who consider me quite rude and arrogant and would jump at the chance to attack me...

and recycle: Didn't Toyota replaced the ST205 with the Corolla Hatchback before they bowed out? It wasn't just because of the illegal turbo...

[Mr_E]

and recycle:  Didn't Toyota replaced the ST205 with the Corolla Hatchback before they bowed out?  It wasn't just because of the illegal turbo...
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They didn't.

ST205 got Toyota banned for 2 years.
They returned under the WRC car rules with the Corolla, which was heavily based on the ST205. Changes in the sorts of stages run meant that higher cockpit and a shorter wheelbase made for a faster car.

Carlos Seinz still thinks the GT-Four is his favorite rally car ever.

Anyway, back on topic. SSIII is lighter and gets slightly less power to the wheels. But it gets power to the wrong wheels. The front end has to do all the turning, all the power and 80% of the braking.

On a track (and I've done this with both a UK spec GT and a 2ZZ powered 7th gen) the GT-Four is significantly quicker. Once spun up, the 2ZZ has a chance of keeping station down the straights, but loses serious distance out of the corners. I imagine a Beams powered SSIII to be very similar.

And the point I'm trying to make is that the Four isn't a very good track car. It's too heavy and the 4wd isn't much of an advantage on nice smooth tarmac.

On a real road, it's gone. Over the hills and far away. Doubly so if it's wet.

If it makes you feel any better, on my local track I'm a mobile chicane for all the Catafields that fly around.....

This post has been edited by Mr_E: Jan 16, 2005 - 9:52 AM

[Mr_E]

when i drove a gt4 the main trick about it its the way it sticks on the road. almost never have to really slow down on a corner and that is cos of the 4wd. to turn on the same speed with my car i will meet very closely any field pole or building is on the opposite side of the road

And this is garbage too. 4wd doesn't change the laws of physics. The Four doesn't grip like hell because it's 4wd. It grips like hell because it's got trick suspension and huge great sticky tyres.

The SSIII also has this. What the SSIII cannot do is allow the driver to get back on the power early, as it will simply understeer off the road. That is where the Four is crushingly effective. Huge brakes scrub the speed off, decent suspension gets it turned in and then a huge shove of turbo torque (and it's torque that matters) hooks up all four wheels and fires you down the next straight bit. The extra power is probably eaten up compensating for the complex drivetrain and extra mass.

[recycle]

when i drove a gt4 the main trick about it its the way it sticks on the road. almost never have to really slow down on a corner and that is cos of the 4wd. to turn on the same speed with my car i will meet very closely any field pole or building is on the opposite side of the road

And this is garbage too. 4wd doesn't change the laws of physics. The Four doesn't grip like hell because it's 4wd. It grips like hell because it's got trick suspension and huge great sticky tyres.

The SSIII also has this. What the SSIII cannot do is allow the driver to get back on the power early, as it will simply understeer off the road. That is where the Four is crushingly effective. Huge brakes scrub the speed off, decent suspension gets it turned in and then a huge shove of turbo torque (and it's torque that matters) hooks up all four wheels and fires you down the next straight bit. The extra power is probably eaten up compensating for the complex drivetrain and extra mass.
[right][snapback]234367[/snapback][/right]

can u over steer with a fwd car?

[Mr_E]

can u over steer with a fwd car?
[right][snapback]234422[/snapback][/right]

Not under power. Lift-off oversteer is possible depending on how the car is setup.

[recycle]

but is impossible for a stock fwd celica to oversteer on any dry road. even on wet oversteering is never controlled. this is what i mean never use the brakes. oversteering does the brakes work.

[doGGy]

Lets send this topic to best motoring, and let them test both cars

[popstar]

ok guy's we've got another meet on saturday....

we'll see if we can get some sort of road test of all four cars worked out, if the roads stay dry and snow free......