New types of turbo's in the works., Interesting....READ!! Options

[d3monc3lica]

I was looking thru the new HCI magazine and i came across 2 new forms of turbo induction.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Squires Turbo Systems (STS)
The first being a new idea first tested on an Acura Integra (go figure) , but it had outstanding results. The turbo setup was situated in the back of the vehicle, under the wheel well!! Where the muffler was supposed to be, the turbo, filter and wastegate were located.........

Acura Integra STS


Turbo Assembly


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second interesting new induction method was created by Cry02, it basically utilzes compressed carbon dioxide gas to power a compressor similar to the compressors that are found on turbo setups. Looks like it could have potential, however finding information on it is becomming a loss for now, ill update when i find more on it.

[CheesyLobster]

Whats the point? wouldnt that just make it super laggy?

[d3monc3lica]

pfffft !? dont ask me, i just saw it and wanted others to know about it hahaha. I thought the Cry02 one was more interesting but its just a bitch to find info on it. But yeah the first one i guess had good potential but, haha lil too goofy of an idea. BTW anyone here know about Thomas Knights Electric Supercharger, that MO FO is a beast, hes a frikin genious. And no we arent talkin about those lame ass ones on e-bay selling for a nickle. this thing requires 3 spare yellow top batteries.

[pistatio56]

the STS is a really good idea, read the magazine articles that they have posted on their site, they say that it really doesn't have any lag because it is a straight pipe back and because the turbos were designed to instantly fill the pipe with pressure

i have seen the electric supercharger, but as i recall the three batteries only last for about as long as a bottle of nitrous and then need to be recharged

[Supersprynt]

I dont kno how you can get away with saying that there wouldnt be any increased lag because first the exhaust gases have to travel almost the entire length of the car to reach the turbine and then from the compressor the almost the entire length of the car AGAIN to get into the engine. How exactly that doesnt produce 10x the lag, I'd like to see for myself.

Secondly; theres alot of room between the turbine and the engine where not only one, but several exhaust leaks can develop. And not only holes, but debris from common rotting exhaust systems can get into the pipes and destroy turbine wheels.

Good things are obvious, everythings cooler. Thats about it.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Jan 3, 2005 - 1:04 AM

[Jdog1385]

yea that rear turbo setup is definitely sketchy. stuff getting kicked up from the road and a possible bottom out would ruin that turbo. i dont see the advantage

[macavely]

guys this is nothing new .. just something that hasn't been used on cars for a good 50 pluse years.... well trucks.....

[shid]

guys this is nothing new .. just something that hasn't been used on cars for a good 50 pluse years.... well trucks.....
[right][snapback]229317[/snapback][/right]

Yeah I read about this a couple months ago for high end trucks.. same spot too

[boosted_K2]

its just called a remote mounted turbo. ive seen them done before, not really sure the reasoning behind doing it.

[creis]

first off, wouldent tire rear tires kick up a sh*t load of mud and dirt into that filter, not to mention it would be very vonurable to damage from road debrees etc.

second, yeah it would not be as good as a reg (header mounted) turbo because its so far away the preasure on the motor would not be much because it would not push enough air to fill the whole pipe (although if its under there an intercooler would not really be nessisary due to the lenght of the exsposed pipe, it could give gread high end gains, but its doubtful that it would give anything over an N.A. when its under 2.5K rpm

a big truck would be a whole diff. story, I'm just taking about our cars.

edit - the BOV behind the wheel is kinda cool though, be it would give a little shock.

This post has been edited by creis: Jan 3, 2005 - 1:54 AM

[Anub1s]

Yeah for cars that is a very stupid thing to do.

First off, the filter could very easily get water in it and cause some serious crap. Second, the turbo lag would be very high. Third, how stupid does that look? I guess its a good sleeper kind of thing but man its just not as cool as engine bay mounted.

[0Re0]

http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0502_turbo/

[turboinduction]

its just called a remote mounted turbo. ive seen them done before, not really sure the reasoning behind doing it.
[right][snapback]229327[/snapback][/right]

exactly - works well in tight situations. I was reading a job done on the Toyota Matrix XRS. The bay is sooo tight that the filter would literally have to be sitting on the exhaust manifold if you'd like a turbo. A remote system works just as well but theres just alot of piping included. Nice for a semi-sleeper if you got hood crawlers Oh and guys, i'm pretty sure they put some sort of shield to protect the filter from hydro-lock.

Also lag isn't that big of a problem, little scenario -- you own a compressor with a 15ft air hose on it. When you turn on the compressor, how long does it take for air to reach the end of the hose. The turbo lag on a remote system is almost the exactly same as a in-bay system.

-Ti

This post has been edited by turboinduction: Jan 3, 2005 - 9:21 AM

[SlowCelica94]

You commonly see this done on V8's and f-bodies. Not to say it's common, due to how retarded the design is.

[toyotatech3]

anyone here know about Thomas Knights Electric Supercharger, that MO FO is a beast, hes a frikin genious

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tur_knight/

[spunky393]

it's a freaking type R, i was wondering why the no. were so low in the 1/8 and 1/4

[Jehuty]

That's rediculous. This has got to be a play by a shop that doesn't have what it takes to properly fit a turbo.

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....

2. I see cold water slpashing all over an orange-hot turbine housing.... I see... small cracks appearing over time.... I see.... small cracks turning into big cracks....

I'm all for trying new things, but this really looks like a hack job to me. I've seen a write up on it in a magazine once, and I was suprised they took it seriously.

[WannabeGT4]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?

[shid]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?
[right][snapback]230755[/snapback][/right]

he's not right, but he's not entirely wrong- hotter air out of the manifold will spool up the turbo faster; having the turbo far away from the manifold (allowing air under the car truck to cool it (but not by much) is going to lower the amount of air pressure spinning the turbine, leading to a longer spool time (maybe like... 20 miliseconds smaller? Exhausts are still friggin hot

[WannabeGT4]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?
[right][snapback]230755[/snapback][/right]

he's not right, but he's not entirely wrong- hotter air out of the manifold will spool up the turbo faster; having the turbo far away from the manifold (allowing air under the car truck to cool it (but not by much) is going to lower the amount of air pressure spinning the turbine, leading to a longer spool time (maybe like... 20 miliseconds smaller? Exhausts are still friggin hot
[right][snapback]230765[/snapback][/right]

Didn't say anything about air pressure so it sounded like he was saying only heat is responsible, which is completely wrong.

[shid]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?
[right][snapback]230755[/snapback][/right]

he's not right, but he's not entirely wrong- hotter air out of the manifold will spool up the turbo faster; having the turbo far away from the manifold (allowing air under the car truck to cool it (but not by much) is going to lower the amount of air pressure spinning the turbine, leading to a longer spool time (maybe like... 20 miliseconds smaller? Exhausts are still friggin hot
[right][snapback]230765[/snapback][/right]

Didn't say anything about air pressure so it sounded like he was saying only heat is responsible, which is completely wrong.
[right][snapback]230767[/snapback][/right]

the hot air expanding into the tiny space of the manifold is what causes the pressure

but yeah, who knows if thats what he was thinking. hmm

[biglipzit]

imagine forgetting a speed hump at night doing 40mph with one of those rear mounted turbos lmao

[shid]

imagine forgetting a speed hump at night doing 40mph with one of those rear mounted turbos lmao
[right][snapback]230873[/snapback][/right]

Man, I love how in europe they call them humps.

[biglipzit]

We also call them sleeping policemen... Do yall use that one?

[97sccelica]

We also call them sleeping policemen... Do yall use that one?
[right][snapback]230910[/snapback][/right]

strange

[rjbibeau]

i just call it a bent rim

[_rz_]

Here we call speed bumps - "lying policeman"
It a pleasure to say, and even a greater pleasure to go over

[popstar]

RZ

it more likly to be a p#$% and fallen over policeman over here

there only fun when you know thier there, and our shocks are all ok

i hit one the other night out our way mate (the road by the metro) thats on a corner and had a pot hole on the outher side that wasn't fun

[Jehuty]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?
[right][snapback]230755[/snapback][/right]

Altho a turbine wheel looks like a "pinwheel" or a "fan", it is a common miconception that its actually designed to work with exhaust pulses hitting the vanes. While exhaust pulses pushing the vanes soes come into play as a sort of secondary order force, turbines really are powered by heat.

Thats why if you look at the exit of a turbo manifold, the ports are pretty small. This would seem to go against the "less backpressure is better" rull for turbo cars, but that adviceonly applies to exhaust after the turbine. Forcing the fresh exhaust gasses thru a small space makes them hotter, which means they have more energy. Once the gasses enter the turbine housing, they expand into the larger spce, and dissapate heat. Again, the turbine wheel is not a "waterwheel" design. That is to say, it's not desigened to catch pulses around it's circumfrence. It's designed to harness the expansion of gasses and therefore the dissapation of heat.

[shid]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?
[right][snapback]230755[/snapback][/right]

Altho a turbine wheel looks like a "pinwheel" or a "fan", it is a common miconception that its actually designed to work with exhaust pulses hitting the vanes. While exhaust pulses pushing the vanes soes come into play as a sort of secondary order force, turbines really are powered by heat.

Thats why if you look at the exit of a turbo manifold, the ports are pretty small. This would seem to go against the "less backpressure is better" rull for turbo cars, but that adviceonly applies to exhaust after the turbine. Forcing the fresh exhaust gasses thru a small space makes them hotter, which means they have more energy. Once the gasses enter the turbine housing, they expand into the larger spce, and dissapate heat. Again, the turbine wheel is not a "waterwheel" design. That is to say, it's not desigened to catch pulses around it's circumfrence. It's designed to harness the expansion of gasses and therefore the dissapation of heat.
[right][snapback]232013[/snapback][/right]

Thats incorrect. Forcing the gasses through a small space doesn't make them any hotter, but it raises the pressure of air hitting the turbine. The turbine wheel is a waterwheel design, it does catch gas and thats what spins the turbine- it catches gas by the expansion of the heat from the engine which then forced into a smaller opening raising the pressure the force by which the turbine spins.

The reason the manifolds aren't 3 inches big is not because backpressure is good before the turbine, it's to limit and focus the amount of surface space of the air particles hitting the turbine. if the manifold is too big pressure across the entire fan drops, creating a longer spool time and a less efficient turbo.

[WannabeGT4]

1. Turbines are spun be HEAT. That's why turbos are mated right up to manifolds. Putting the turbo way back there looks like a good way to shed alot of heat....
[right][snapback]230750[/snapback][/right]

You sure about that?
[right][snapback]230755[/snapback][/right]

Altho a turbine wheel looks like a "pinwheel" or a "fan", it is a common miconception that its actually designed to work with exhaust pulses hitting the vanes. While exhaust pulses pushing the vanes soes come into play as a sort of secondary order force, turbines really are powered by heat.

Thats why if you look at the exit of a turbo manifold, the ports are pretty small. This would seem to go against the "less backpressure is better" rull for turbo cars, but that adviceonly applies to exhaust after the turbine. Forcing the fresh exhaust gasses thru a small space makes them hotter, which means they have more energy. Once the gasses enter the turbine housing, they expand into the larger spce, and dissapate heat. Again, the turbine wheel is not a "waterwheel" design. That is to say, it's not desigened to catch pulses around it's circumfrence. It's designed to harness the expansion of gasses and therefore the dissapation of heat.
[right][snapback]232013[/snapback][/right]

Ok So if I stick my turbo in an oven I'm going to be making boost? Heat being the main factor in making the turbo spin doesn't make any sense.

[shid]

No, heat still IS the main factor to turbo spool. Without heat air expanding, you would never spool up or suck in air; because it'd always be at the same pressure. You'd suck in cool air, and just as much cool air would "push" the turbine. it doesn't work.

[Jehuty]

Ok So if I stick my turbo in an oven I'm going to be making boost? Heat being the main factor in making the turbo spin doesn't make any sense.
[right][snapback]232018[/snapback][/right]

Haha, not quite! But if you where to dissapate heat from your pressurized exaust gasses by say... running them down the length of your car's underbody where cold air rushes by... they would remain pressurized, but not have as much of the energy to expand, dissapate, and spin the turbine as would hot gasses.

Of course, according to the Ideal Gas Law, we could be arguing semantics here, as there is a direct relation between pressure and heat. However that does not make my initial statement that turbines are driven by heat any less true. Nor does it change the fact that turbine performance would suffer if the exhausts gasses where cooled before reaching the turbine.

[shid]

Ok So if I stick my turbo in an oven I'm going to be making boost? Heat being the main factor in making the turbo spin doesn't make any sense.
[right][snapback]232018[/snapback][/right]

Haha, not quite! But if you where to dissapate heat from your pressurized exaust gasses by say... running them down the length of your car's underbody where cold air rushes by... they would remain pressurized, but not have as much of the energy to expand, dissapate, and spin the turbine as would hot gasses.

Of course, according to the Ideal Gas Law, we could be arguing semantics here, as there is a direct relation between pressure and heat. However that does not make my initial statement that turbines are driven by heat any less true. Nor does it change the fact that turbine performance would suffer if the exhausts gasses where cooled before reaching the turbine.
[right][snapback]232022[/snapback][/right]

Your arguments are true, but how you arrived there is false.

[Jehuty]

Your arguments are true, but how you arrived there is false.
[right][snapback]232024[/snapback][/right]

If you are reffering to the part about the outlets of the turbo manifold, then it's down to heat and pressure not being completly interchangable in that part of the turbo system. However, different manifold/turbine housings have been designed to emphasize either pressure, heat, or both. Is that the part that could be considered false or am I lost here?

[shid]

A turbo works almost exactly like a gas turbine engine (Link: http://travel.howstuffworks.com/turbine.htm )

and here's how turbochargers work:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm

because heated gases take up more space than cool gases; you are correct in saying without heat, the gasses would cool and take up less space- less pressure. However, you are incorrect in saying that the air does not move the turbine like a waterwheel- it is exactly like that.

[Jehuty]

A turbo works almost exactly like a gas turbine engine (Link: http://travel.howstuffworks.com/turbine.htm )

and here's how turbochargers work:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo.htm

because heated gases take up more space than cool gases; you are correct in saying without heat, the gasses would cool and take up less space- less pressure. However, you are incorrect in saying that the air does not move the turbine like a waterwheel- it is exactly like that.
[right][snapback]232031[/snapback][/right]

Oh, I see. I was just trying to illustrate the difference between the way many people think a turbine works and the way it acutally does. That is, the picture many (if not most) people get in their head is that of the exhaust gasses "blowing" the turbine wheel. Hmmm, even that description can be ambiguous. Anyhow, yeah it's hard to clearly converse about. But I think we're on the same page. I hope I didn't make it more confusing than it needed to be by trying to explain myself.

[shid]

but exhaust gases DO blow the wheel.

[WannabeGT4]

but exhaust gases DO blow the wheel.
[right][snapback]232036[/snapback][/right]

LOL That's what I was trying to say.

[Jehuty]

... exhaust gasses "blowing" the turbine wheel.  Hmmm, even that description can be ambiguous...
[right][snapback]232035[/snapback][/right]

I'm going to run out of ways to say this. I'm trying to point out the distiction between flowing gasses simply pushing the turbine around, and energy (heat) being reclaimed by the turbine wheel. And while you could say that flowing gasses do indeed simply push the turbine around, I think it's worth making the distinction.

And after all this, bleading the heat from the exhaust before it reaches the turbine still hurts the performance of the turbine. Re-interpretation of my admittedly gray-area language doesn't change that.

[shid]

... exhaust gasses "blowing" the turbine wheel.  Hmmm, even that description can be ambiguous...
[right][snapback]232035[/snapback][/right]

I'm going to run out of ways to say this. I'm trying to point out the distiction between flowing gasses simply pushing the turbine around, and energy (heat) being reclaimed by the turbine wheel. And while you could say that flowing gasses do indeed simply push the turbine around, I think it's worth making the distinction.

And after all this, bleading the heat from the exhaust before it reaches the turbine still hurts the performance of the turbine. Re-interpretation of my admittedly gray-area language doesn't change that.
[right][snapback]232144[/snapback][/right]

What you don't seem to realize is that a turbine would spin just fine even if there was no heat energy. Energy is energy; and the turbine changes that form of energy. Thats all. Heat has no special part in driving the turbine any more than blowing on a uhh.. one of those hand head windmill spinner things does.

You're getting confused because you believe that the transfer of energy is straight from the hot air (heat energy) to kinetic energy in the turbine; thats not true. The heat energy makes NO direct thermodynamic transfer to the turbine wheels.

here's what it comes down to; in a supermarket there is a revolving door. People want to get into the supermarket so they cram in together; and the revolving door takes lik 4 people at a time.

Inside the store, they get fat because they open and eat all the candybars, and they only leave one at a time- but they're still the ones pushing the door.



Inside the engine, close proximity air molecules are combusted and heated so that they take up more space. This explosive force directly drives the turbine; heat has no direct relation to it.

yes, it still would be a bad idea to give the molecules a chance to cool down and group together; but thats not the same thing.

[rjbibeau]

ohhh someone seems to be a physics major...

[Hanyo]

Yes the main energy source of a turbo is to have air spinning the turbine. But the extreme hot gasses also help the turbo increase its efficency.

simply..

20 gallons of 5psi cold air will make a turbo put out 3 units of energy..
but..
20 gallons of 5psi hot air ( like car exhaust temp) will make 3.1 units of energy.

why would there be more energy put out? Well, we all know hot air likes to expand. If the turbo design manages to catch this expanding energy, the more energy it can produce.

[turboinduction]

Simple -

Exhaust gas blows on the turbine making it spin

Hot and Pressurized air makes the turbine spin faster.

And since you don’t seem to grasp the idea that your exhaust pipe really doesn't dissipate heat like you think, I’ll say it again. The spool time between the two is roughly the same. You’re arguing that this is a bad design. Sometimes it’s the only design. Hell the new LF-A has the radiators in the back! Sometimes odd designs must come into play to make things to work. The difference between to two is small, and also, maybe the difference is made up because all that heat you talk of is in the back far away from the intake.

-Ti