7AFTE, Building up 7afe internals ect. Options

[94ST2]

Alright I've decided to go down the 7AFTE route. I want to know all the upgrades to the internals and any other upgrades that would allow me to get 14-20 psi for racing if this is possible and around 8-10 for regular street driving. Also would someone describe what blueprinting the engine means and if this would help. Also is there any way to run perhaps a dry or wet shot of NO2 to increse hp or there no internal upgrades strong enough to allow boost and nitrous?

[playr158]

wow sumbody has HIIIIIIIIGH ambitions but thats great dude

no N2o for you though you'll get killed with the motor

what you neeed

is to
get a 4age head
create a 7agte hybrid motor

now

get custom piston with a cr of ruffly 8:1 or sumthing nice an low
get custom rods
maybe even bore the motor to oooh i dunno 83mm or so
port and polish the head
3 angle vavle job
255lph fuel pump
bigger fuel lines
bigger fuel injectors (turbo probe maybe)
3" engine back exhaust this includes header
intercooler
BOV
greddy profec

and hmmm bout i dunno maybe another grand or 2 in more stuff

[FallenHero]

and hmmm bout i dunno maybe another grand or 2 in more stuff
[right][snapback]247544[/snapback][/right]

LoL....

[playr158]

hey
i actually plan on eventually
doing everything i stated up there^^^
but the 1 thing i'm not sure i'll do is the head swap
kinda wanna retain the whole motor
push it to barely street legal
and get all i can outta it
and say wooot best 7afe on the planet that we know of!

[Digndoug]

hey
i actually plan on eventually
doing everything i stated up there^^^
but the 1 thing i'm not sure i'll do is the head swap
kinda wanna retain the whole motor
push it to barely street legal
and get all i can outta it
and say wooot best 7afe on the planet that we know of!
[right][snapback]247548[/snapback][/right]

There has been a few articles saying that even with the fe poor head design it is still very good for a turbo. I think im gunna go the same rout as you, but first do a basic stock rebuild from high milage, and then just turbo with FMI.

[94ST2]

Yeah I dont want to do the head swap. What advantages would running an N02 cooled intercooler?

[94ST2]

OK forgot to add if I do the upgrades listed above, but do not do the head swap what is the amount of boost I can use when I want to race?

[Exile04]

how much would that stuff posted cost about? cuz i think its going ot be upgrade motor in spring/2005 work all summer maybe 2 jobs and then turbo fall of 2005

[94ST2]

Yeah I already have a job doin yardwork and im goin on the jobsearch to work at a store or sumthin so I can get the money to get it done.

[Dr_Tweak]

The things that are cool about doing the GE head swap:

You get access to both cams so you can tune them
You can use the 4AGZE low compression pistons
You can use the 20v head which work VERY well with a turbo

This post has been edited by raven_101: Feb 18, 2005 - 1:59 AM

[94ST2]

Yeah, but doing the head swap adds a lot more money to spend and also adds a lot of problems to deal with such as new wiring.

[nik]

Yeah, but doing the head swap adds a lot more money to spend and also adds a lot of problems to deal with such as new wiring.
[right][snapback]247598[/snapback][/right]

if you want to push 14-20 psi

new rods
new pistons
head work ( I would swap )
hone or bore heck custom sleeves
ems piggy or stand alone
t3 super 60 or t3 t4
electric BC
manifold (log are ok but i would go custom)
there is most of the man stuff

[playr158]

if you want to push 14-20 psi

new rods
new pistons
head work ( I would swap )
hone or bore heck custom sleeves
ems piggy or stand alone
t3 super 60 or t3 t4
electric BC
manifold (log are ok but i would go custom)
there is most of the man stuff
[right][snapback]247709[/snapback][/right]

head swap is not needed imo needless to say nik knows more on the subject
but you CAN achieve 12-14 easily and safely without a head swap you might even be able to reach 20
as i stated

get custom piston LOW CR <---must
get custom rods <---------------must
Bore to 83mm 84mm if your lucky--IMO a must
port and polish the head <------must
3 angle vavle job <--------------must
255lph fuel pump<---------------must
bigger fuel lines <-------------not neccassary
bigger fuel injectors <-----------must
intercooler <----------------------MUST
BOV <-----------------------------needed
greddy profec <------------------must ----this is your engine management system
3" downpipe back exhaust <---needed
custom header <-----------------must
T3/T04e turbo external wastegate <----must LOL
stage 3 clutch----------------------needed
rebuild tranny --------------------needed (titanium parts if you can find them)
boost/ air,fuel/ EGT/ oil pressure/ oil temp/ water temp -----all goood to have gauges
SYNTHETIC OIL------------------NEEDED

if you wanna go CRAZY
i might be on crack but
lighten crank
bore the throttle body
water injection
rework the intake manifold (bore or what ever they do to it)
heat wrap to wrap your intercooler piping and manifold (keeps temps down in the engine bay)
maybe port and polish the exhaust side of things on the motor


BE a GOOD kid say NO TO DRUGS SAY NO TO NOS
thats just a no no for this kind of motor/setup

This post has been edited by playr158: Feb 19, 2005 - 12:22 AM

[Mike431635]

Everything playr mentioned looks good, but I suggest getting a wideband O2 setup. They're falling in price and will be WELL worth it for tuning. And on that subject, you should seriously look into a standalone EMS, especially if you do the head swap. You will have to do custom wiring for the EMS so the wiring issue won't be a problem

I eventually plan to build a very nice 7AGTE 20V turbo setup for an AE86.

[MonsterBOX]

or u could get a 3sgte for the same price and probably less effort then just put some better pistons in it and 15psi easily and ull be higher than 260hp

[Kwanza26]

head swap is not needed imo needless to say nik knows more on the subject
but you CAN achieve 12-14 easily and safely without a head swap you might even be able to reach 20
as i stated

get custom piston LOW CR <---must
get custom rods <---------------must
Bore to 83mm 84mm if your lucky--IMO a must
port and polish the head <------must
3 angle vavle job <--------------must
255lph fuel pump<---------------must
bigger fuel lines <-------------not neccassary
bigger fuel injectors <-----------must
intercooler <----------------------MUST
BOV <-----------------------------needed
greddy profec <------------------must ----this is your engine management system
3" downpipe back exhaust <---needed
custom header <-----------------must
T3/T04e turbo external wastegate <----must LOL
stage 3 clutch----------------------needed
rebuild tranny --------------------needed (titanium parts if you can find them)
boost/ air,fuel/ EGT/ oil pressure/ oil temp/ water temp -----all goood to have gauges
SYNTHETIC OIL------------------NEEDED

if you wanna go CRAZY
i might be on crack but
lighten crank
bore the throttle body
water injection
rework the intake manifold (bore or what ever they do to it)
heat wrap to wrap your intercooler piping and manifold (keeps temps down in the engine bay)
maybe port and polish the exhaust side of things on the motor
[right][snapback]247853[/snapback][/right]

You should really really really NOT preach the gospel especially when you really don't have a clue what you're going on about.

First off... let's say your ultimate goal is to hit 20psi. You don't need to bore the block... and the MAX limits on a 7A block is 83mm. That is the MAXIMUM spec and beyond that you're compromising strength and your limbs. You don't need to port/polish the head, although it would be nice to change the flow patterns. With the FE head and forced induction... it's not about the ability to flow. It's about the flow pattern and the velocity... where it peaks, where it flattens, etc. This reflects directly back the torque band. You don't need to do a 3 angle cut... I'm afraid to even ask you player... if you even know what that is ... Fuel system upgrades are mandatory (pump, injectors). Bigger fuel lines... well... that sounds kinda funny... something someone who doesn't really know what he's talking about would say. Some sort of piggyback fuel controller or management system would also be mandatory, along with at least a 2 bar MAP sensor. The stock sensor is not gonna work at 20psi and the stock computer won't be able to read out the increased charged air. A 3" downpipe is not needed, but would be nice to have along with a larger diameter exhaust system. A custom header... or what we just say, a turbo manifold will be needed along with a turbo capable of spooling efficiently, 20 pounds of boost. A stage 3 clutch is not needed, but should be high on the list unless you like eating through clutches every few thousand miles. Rebuilding the tranny with "titanium" parts... heh. The general rule with titanium... don't make parts with titanium that "wear"... Titanium eats away at other metals and is not very comfortable around other metals. Hence why you don't see titanium engines and pistons and such in production cars. So in a tranny... umm... heh. A rebuilt tranny would be nice... but not needed if your current tranny is in good shape. The MAIN weakness and the biggest limiting factor... Rods and Pistons. The stock pistons can probably hold their own for a little while at 20psi so long as you run a good amount of fuel (slightly rich)... but don't plan on the long haul. Custom low-compression pistons and rods is pretty much mandatory if you wanna make this engine last.

Now for the "Crack"... which you do sound like you're on player...
Lightening the crank. Umm... not needed for a turbo set-up. Lightening the crank is risky business not to mention almost redundant in a f/i set-up because of way a turbo set-up works. Light crank, light fly, etc... reduces load and when extreme, can affect spool, which relys a lot of load. Water injection is a safety thing and would be nice to have... Modified throttle body... well... ehh... it only work if you port match the entire intake manifold. At that point... might as well get a completely different TB and manifold. ITBs anyone? Heat wrap isn't neccesary either... nor is "porting the exhaust side of things". That would be included with "Port and Polish"...

To close... as you all may know... I've singled out playr158 today as my annoyance. It's nice that he's doing his research, reading up on some of the more knowledgeable discussions... but don't be quick to pass it on if you don't know what it is. It may seem mean... but some people don't "get" it until it comes to this. For the most part... I think the original question is too general and too uninformed. There is a LOT of information out there to gather, and to ask such detailed questions without even knowing simple things is not worth the time to explain it... unless I'm annoyed or angry... tis why I barely respond to some of these questions anymore. For now... the information is what it is. I'm sorry playr for singling you out... but if you know you can't chew it... don't take such big bites brotha... ;]

[94ST2]

Wow lots of info from you guys and some contradicting things being said, to kwanza and player since you both basically supplied the big lists of upgrades not to be rude or anything, but just wondering if any of you have a turboed 7afe? Info that you gave though is still appreciated and im just gonna have to decided which information will help me the most to get to my ultimate goal of 20 psi.

[Kwanza26]

Wow lots of info from you guys and some contradicting things being said, to kwanza and player since you both basically supplied the big lists of upgrades not to be rude or anything, but just wondering if any of you have a turboed 7afe?  Info that you gave though is still appreciated and im just gonna have to decided which information will help me the most to get to my ultimate goal of 20 psi.
[right][snapback]247877[/snapback][/right]

Engines all work on the same principle. Do you know what it takes to go turbo? FYI... most of the guys that have done it, I don't recall ever asking these sorts of questions. They do their research, they buy the parts, they set it up, and they work with what they have. They're the ones who supply the short answers... mine was only long because I was breaking down playr's post. Read the last sentence of that post... and consider yourself in the same catergory. All in all... it comes down to PISTONS, RODS, Turbo set-up, FUEL, and a way of controlling the fuel. That's all it is... and that's all I'm gonna answer. If you're really serious... that's all you *really* need to know.

FYI... I've set-up turbo cars before... never a 7AFE... but 22R, B18, K20A3, just to name a few. I'm mostly an n/a guy though...

[94ST2]

I said I didnt care how long the information was and that I appreciated it and yes most people do know more about engines and turboing them and all that and good for them im just trying to learn a little at a time and get to that point some day. Im asking these questions cause the st aint like some honda where you can just buy all the **** you need and it bolts on all nice and easy. Hell everything basically has to be custom and since im not the engine expert I figure ill ask questions to the people who are apparntly you know some stuff and if im going to be goin for high boost I dont want to set up some ****ty weak internals and run a higher risk of destroying my engine which would put me further back than where im starting right now. And as for the whole last sentence thing about big bites and not being able to chew them and how you dont want to answer such questions then what is this section of the forum for? Are only the high and mighty people who "know" all the **** about engines to bag on the beginners and say to them how stupid the questions are and how research needs to be done and all that. I know research has to be done what do you think asking questions like these is. That is all.

[Kwanza26]

I said I didnt care how long the information was and that I appreciated it and yes most people do know more about engines and turboing them and all that and good for them im just trying to learn a little at a time and get to that point some day.  Im asking these questions cause the st aint like some honda where you can just buy all the **** you need and it bolts on all nice and easy.  Hell everything basically has to be custom and since im not the engine expert I figure ill ask questions to the people who are apparntly you know some stuff and if im going to be goin for high boost I dont want to set up some ****ty weak internals and run a higher risk of destroying my engine which would put me further back than where im starting right now.  And as for the whole last sentence thing about big bites and not being able to chew them and how you dont want to answer such questions then what is this section of the forum for?  Are only the high and mighty people who "know" all the **** about engines to bag on the beginners and say to them how stupid the questions are and how research needs to be done and all that.  I know research has to be done what do you think asking questions like these is. That is all.
[right][snapback]247890[/snapback][/right]

People plan things... that's a given. To plan... they research. You may call it research... but really all you're doing is asking opinions. nik and myself are the only ones who gave you a straight answer. nik is currently a 7AFTE... just so you know... and he gave you the information you need... like myself. It's not like some big secret where we're holding back all sorts of juicy details and stuff... what is posted is all you really need to know. You say it yourself... "custom"... That makes the entire set-up a learning process. I'm sure when you have more specific questions, such as "where is the best place to tap oil lines?", "what cc injectors should I consider using?", "is my radiator gonna melt?", the "experts" will be more than happy to help.

[playr158]

I've singled out playr158 today as my annoyance

hey man its all good

yea i know wat 3 angel is

as for the crank ---lol thats why its in the crack head section

and hey its good to learn were i flawed things

and i wasn't saying he HAD to do every thing thats why i stated
what i would do for the most part as a practically optimum/final setup
instead of the 1 stage in the complete build up of the system

and 83mm is the max hence the reason i said that
cause that would be a nice addative in the build up since you could probably (not sure) get better sleeves even though thats not really needed either

as for the tranny the only reason i say titanium cause i know sum people with them that like them that and titanium is the strongest metal since i know the 7 tranny isn't that great well thought if its available then why the hell not lol
the bigger fuel lines hmm i must been not thinking there? but hell if you have more fuel might as well get it there with bigger lines but still a retarded thing i said woops

but all in all if you combine KWANZA me and NIK
you have great info right there (mixing the info of course to kwanzas corrections)

you have great info oh and for ITBs yea at my stated intake mods yea you would consider ITBs i guess

oh kwanza i can CHEW i can CHEW BIG
so if i'm wrong then hell yea correct me and kick my butt i appreciate it
if my understanding is wrong and its corrected

[Kwanza26]

and 83mm is the max hence the reason i said that
cause that would be a nice addative in the build up since you could probably (not sure) get better sleeves even though thats not really needed either

as for the tranny the only reason i say titanium cause i know sum people with them that like them that and titanium is the strongest metal since i know the 7 tranny isn't that great well thought if its available then why the hell not lol
the bigger fuel lines hmm i must been not thinking there? but hell if you have more fuel might as well get it there with bigger lines but still a retarded thing i said woops

oh kwanza i can CHEW i can CHEW BIG
so if i'm wrong then hell yea correct me and kick my butt i appreciate it
if my understanding is wrong and its corrected
[right][snapback]247997[/snapback][/right]

Heh... you can't chew *that* big... ;]

I don't care if you spit out information from past discussions... just let it be known that you're "assuming"...

[playr158]

yea i will in future but there were only 2 assumptions the rest i just suggested or was needed

thanks kwanza

[nik]

ok i'll just break down a basic set up

9-10 on a 7afte should get 170 whp 180 trq this is dyno provine
i think the limit of the 7afe stock engine is 12-14 psi max and thats pushing it
getting you in the 200 horse and 230+ trq

for your goal of 20 psi
i want to ask you why 20 psi? Do you just want the bragging rights of 20 psi
or are you shoting for 250+ whp?

[d3monc3lica]

w000t i cant wait til summer, my kits just sitting here, now....not to pirate this post, but ......... can we talk vacuum lines? That is one of the only things making me a little iffy.......... because Im not sure which go where... thanks..

[94ST2]

OK as for the 20 psi I figured that pushing 14-20 would get me between 200-250 and thats all I really want. Im not gonna be using it for bragging rights or anything and I dont think what people put down on the dyno is everything you gotta be a good driver too to race in more than a straight line.

[nik]

OK as for the 20 psi I figured that pushing 14-20 would get me between 200-250 and thats all I really want.  Im not gonna be using it for bragging rights or anything and I dont think what people put down on the dyno is everything you gotta be a good driver too to race in more than a straight line.
[right][snapback]248756[/snapback][/right]

i was just asking some people are like that and just brag out there stuff.
Anyways here is what you need to do

build your head (p&p maybe valves etc)
new low comp pistons (forged)
new gaskets (metal head)
good turbo
good intercooler
fuel control

pretty much like the stuff i and others have said earlier in the posts

with all those you should hit 250 whp oh and good luck on your project

[brianforster]

kwanza is the man, i mean seriously, id go with any advice he gives you, ive read this forum 6 months before i owned my celica and 6 months after i wrecked my celica, and his advice is pretty much my celica bible, ive seen a lot of his stuff and i really trust him with advice.

he will point you in the right direction

[FallenHero]

kwanza is the man, i mean seriously, id go with any advice he gives you, ive read this forum 6 months before i owned my celica and 6 months after i wrecked my celica, and his advice is pretty much my celica bible, ive seen a lot of his stuff and i really trust him with advice.

he will point you in the right direction
[right][snapback]248863[/snapback][/right]

Agreed, he knows his stuff.

[nik]

kwanza is the man, i mean seriously, id go with any advice he gives you, ive read this forum 6 months before i owned my celica and 6 months after i wrecked my celica, and his advice is pretty much my celica bible, ive seen a lot of his stuff and i really trust him with advice.

he will point you in the right direction
[right][snapback]248863[/snapback][/right]

Agreed, he knows his stuff.
[right][snapback]248873[/snapback][/right]

i know my my stuff but i still ask Kwanza on stuff (4age and other toyota engines)
so ditto Kwanza's the man

This post has been edited by nik: Feb 22, 2005 - 1:23 PM

[Kwanza26]

thanks for the compliments fellas.

[playr158]

word kwanza is a great dictionary not a bible

[94ST2]

Thanks for all the replys guys as for the head work on the valves what besides 3 angle valve job could I do?

[94ST2]

Does anyone know how much boost the Garrett T25 turbo with a wastegate can get?

[BBoYRuGGeD]

Does anyone know how much boost the Garrett T25 turbo with a wastegate can get?
[right][snapback]249624[/snapback][/right]

im looking at that very same turbo man i been reading and it said the turbos good all the way to 300hp. but at safe boost (6PSI) u should get a good 30%-50% increase in hp depending on the setup. so with an ST... prolly what.... 130-150hp? build ur internals a bit and u can go higher boost. also said the turbo can handle 15PSI no prob. im giving this turbo (turbo kit) a good thinking myself minus the internals work since im looooow milage. also... look at the garret T25BB turbo. same turbo but its dual ball bearing, suppose to reduce lag and add more power. i know some members here got the T25 so if u guys can.. enlighten us on how this turbo handles

[nik]

this is IMAO but i think just the T3 bottom trim is just fine for 7afte set not really any lag and can put out 250 horse (on the turbo)

but you guys need to look and the maps to see where your goals are and the efficency (sp) of the turbo in that range

a turbo 7afte is a fun car not the fastest and a quick car

[playr158]

i suggest a t3/t04 its a great turbo IMO
gets minimal lag and a great topend pull
just an improved T3 lol

but t25?
comes in most "bolt on" kits

not my cup of tea for that turbo
t3 is best bet

[nik]

i suggest a t3/t04 its a great turbo IMO
gets minimal lag and a great topend pull
just an improved T3 lol

but t25?
comes in most "bolt on" kits

not my cup of tea for that turbo
t3 is best bet
[right][snapback]249836[/snapback][/right]

i disagree i think the t3t4 would lag more and kick in later in the rpm band

[BBoYRuGGeD]

yah i hear ya guys... the T3 is probably a better turbo. but i cant seem to find any turbo KITS with the T3 for the 7afe (i say 7afe cuz im looking/thinking into buying a corolla 7afe turbo kit... since theres prolly no turbo kits made for our cars anyway). the question is how good/reliable IS the T25? since there is a kit made already with this turbo for the 7afe. not to get off topic but where would the best place to buy a turbo kit be? im looking into the kit since i dont plan on running high boost anyway.. just reliably safe boost

[playr158]

anywhere with a corrolla kit i guess

nah the T3/T04 to my understanding was made to reduce lag with the ability to extend the top end as well?
but then again i could be wrong lol kwanza?

[FallenHero]

Zipstrips used a T3To4b and swaped to a T3 because the lag... I'm pretty sure that's how it was at least.. it was a while back.

[94ST2]

How much boost is the T3 or T3/T04 capable of?

[initialdrift55]

i believe around 300-350 correct me if im wrong

[94ST2]

Yeah that is the hp but im talkin about how much psi of boost can you get out of it before the turbo will get damaged 15, 20???

[playr158]

the t3 and t3/t04 can both handle that HP
your engine will most likely blow b4 that turbo haha

but you can't hit that (300-350hp) mark with a 7afte
flat out just can't be done?
don't think the block itself can handle 300
if it can your pushing the limit of the block
at that point just better to go 3sgte

even though i'm pro 7afte and keeping "original motor" pride!

[nik]

don't think the block itself can handle 300
if it can your pushing the limit of the block
at that point just better to go 3sgte
[right][snapback]250167[/snapback][/right]

7agte by ray hall use the 7afe block and he pushs 300+ to the wheels

[Kwanza26]

the t3 and t3/t04 can both handle that HP
your engine will most likely blow b4 that turbo haha

but you can't hit that (300-350hp) mark with a 7afte
flat out just can't be done?
don't think the block itself can handle 300
if it can your pushing the limit of the block
at that point just better to go 3sgte
[right][snapback]250167[/snapback][/right]

You're just guessing again...

Iron blocks are really the strongest they come... The only major issue I would see trying to push 300+ hp is the rods, pistons, and the fuel... but seriously now... what's the point of talking about it?

[94ST2]

All talk about the hp but none about the psi capability?

[playr158]

the HP talk is related to PSI or vice versa

if you have stock hp its
how much boost does it take to get to the max hp level

when the rods, crank, pistons, and such crap out
so you find ruffly how much boost it takes to get to HP

[94ST2]

Yeah I realize that but if you buy a turbo that can only create 15 psi then your not goin to be able to achieve as much power so I am just wondering if there is any boost limit to the turbos that have been discussed.

[Exile04]

ok say i buy a 7afe fro ma junk yard, build up internals and all that turbo it when all said and done pushing 250hp and some og psi(not good with turbo lingo) anyways if i wanted to switch to a 7atge whould i have to buy all new internals and everyhting or just the head

[playr158]

hrrm a boost limit for the t3 or t3/t04
i don't think is an issue with our cars

both turbos should be able to boost 15-20 psi

go to www.turbocalculator.com and check that sitte out

[nik]

ok say i buy a 7afe fro ma junk yard, build up internals and all that turbo it when all said and done pushing 250hp and some og psi(not good with turbo lingo) anyways if i wanted to switch to a 7atge whould i have to buy all new internals and everyhting or just the head
[right][snapback]251166[/snapback][/right]

you would need pistons 4ag to match the head
plus the head intake manifold new exhaust manifold
you will want to use the 4ag wiring harness or a stand alone
belt from 924
and a bunch of little things