I think to much some slap me, 3s < 5s Options

[macavely]

Ok so toyota has the 3s block which is a great one we all know this .. but see as its te 3th make of the S block wouldn't the 5S be a better block ? ... why would toyota make the 5 th version of the block weeker then that of the 3rd? .... and while at it why would the internals be weaker ? it just would make any senne for toyota to not move up .. and keep there "toyota is for ever " thing going ... and then why would they put the 5S in so many cars and in the one that they sell the most ? unless it can take abuse like a pro ? then i'm thinkin my eingine has 221,XXX K miles on it and she is still strong ... and doesn't burn oil ? now what i want to try is doing is fine and camary with the SS and boost it the right way and see how much before it will blow up ....

[Batman722]

[presure2]

mac, some of your posts are SO hard to understand man!! ...if your trying to say the 5s block is better then the 3s...sorry, i think your wrong man..lol

[macavely]

lol na i'm not trying to say that.. i'm saying for what it is designed for its better then the 3s .. 3s for performance .. 5s for everyday economical use ... ..

This post has been edited by macavely: Jun 17, 2005 - 8:09 AM

[presure2]

ooohh ok...well, you know, the 3s still kinda gets decent milage cosidering its a turbo motor ect..

[forkee]

maybe the higher number is worse (less performance, better mileage), eh? the supra is a 2j, then the 3s gt4, celica gt is 5s, st is 7a.

edit: oh and dont forget the 4a, fitting conveniently in the middle

all u need now is a 1 and 6

This post has been edited by forkee: Jun 17, 2005 - 3:04 PM

[FallenHero]

1MZfe. it's a 6 cylinder, but...

[SlowCelica94]

production costs

[Boss-Celica]

If lower the number, better the engine, How could a 4age be better than a 5sfe, or a 1zz better than a 2jz?

This post has been edited by Boss-Celica: Jun 17, 2005 - 5:10 PM

[orvillescelica]

i think its jsut the way they number the engines. You shouldnt think of it that they are always trying to improve on the engine. When they are, they create the 3rd gen 3s vs. the 2nd gen 3s.

When they 5s and 3s, think of it as the 3rd time they have used the s block and the 5th time they have used the s block. Although they were created using the same block, they were developed with very different requirments in mind. The 3rd time they used the s block as a base (3s) to start on, they requirements were performance and the ability to handle turbo pressures. The 5th time they used the s block as a starting base (5s), their requirements where fuel economy, long life, and cheaper production.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

Actually, from what I've read on MR2OC.com, the 5S block is stronger than the 3S block. Also I believe the crank is really tough and can be used to upgrade the 3S from 2.0L to 2.2L.

[Galcobar]

The block is determined by the second digit in the engine code: S block, M block, etc.

The preceeding number is the generation of the engine using that block. The 5SFE is therefore the fifth engine type to use the S block.

The reason the 3SGE is better than the 5SFE has nothing to do with the block per se. It is the head geometry, reflected by the F or G. F is a narrow valve-angle head aimed at producing a more torque-oriented engine with low-end power for drivability and fuel economy. The G head is a wider angle, encouraging higher RPMs and thus higher HP peaks, with a greater overall output.

The internals in the F-head engines are always lighter than in the G-head engines because they don't have to handle as much stress and, being lighter, encourage fuel economy. They last just as long as the internals of a G-head engine because their lighter build is matched to a lighter load. This would be why a 5SFE can never match a 3SGE's potential, particularly under boost, even though it has greater displacement -- it would break.

I would, however, love for someone to explain how replacing a crank increases displacement, since it's the size of the combustion chambers contained in the head which determine displacement.

[forkee]

lol

[Andason]

i knew right away before i looked at the poster that this thread was mac's

[BLADDER_MASTER]

I would, however, love for someone to explain how replacing a crank increases displacement, since it's the size of the combustion chambers contained in the head which determine displacement.
[right][snapback]301030[/snapback][/right]

http://www.mr2oc.com/showthread.php?t=7144...stroking+3s-gte

[Galcobar]

Changing the crank is not stroking the engine. Stroking the engine requires changing the crank, but that's only one part of essentially redesigning the engine internals.

[MonsterBOX]

if toyota made a 5sgte it would be better...5s block is larger

[Consynx]

IF, correct...
btw, using those numbers to compare different series is kind of tarded

i think what Mac was getting at was staying w/in the Series.
3s-ge
3s-gte
5s-fe

if you want to get into that try
1zz-fe
2zz-fe

1jz
2jz

i think there's a 1jz at least :\

anyways, no more input, just want to read.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

IF, correct...
btw, using those numbers to compare different series is kind of tarded

i think what Mac was getting at was staying w/in the Series.
3s-ge
3s-gte
5s-fe

if you want to get into that try
1zz-fe
2zz-fe

1jz
2jz

i think there's a 1jz at least :\

anyways, no more input, just want to read.
[right][snapback]301576[/snapback][/right]

Well theres no 2ZZ-FE, although theres a 2ZZ-GE. And yes there was a 1JZ-GTE.

[Consynx]

ah, so they changed the f to g, didn't know that...thought it was still f even though the vvtl-i was introduced and another 40hp squeezed out of the same engine.

[macavely]

what i was getting at this was what the blocks where designed for .... the 3s-fe/ge/gte for performance and the 5s-fe for ecomey .. yea its like comparing apples and oranges.. but its also like which one tastes better this time of year and apple or orange.... both are great mottor for what they are ment to do... so i was getting at which one does what its ment to do better??? and from thinking about it.. i say the 5s is better at what it does then the 3s is ... simply just by looking at which is in more cars ??

[soven]

so confusing lol .... isnt 3sfe aimed towards economy as well as the 5sfe. Don't worry bout me, I don't even know what is the difference between the two engines

[OOBE]

The numbers only signify a revision of the bottom end; just because it is higher does not necessarily mean it is a larger block...or stronger or better, hehe.

EDIT: I forgot to add...the letters BEFORE the dash mean the engine family or series. The letters AFTER the dash specify the features of the engine, like turbo, supercharger, fuel injection, etc. Here are the letters after the dash!


G - Wide angle Twin Cam (sportier head)
F - Narrow angle Twin Cam (economical head)
T - Turbocharged
Z - Supercharged
E - Electronic Fuel Injection
U - Emissions control (Japanese)
C - Emissions control (Californian).

This post has been edited by OOBE: Jun 20, 2005 - 2:32 AM

[celicaracer18]

what i was getting at this was what the blocks where designed for ....  the 3s-fe/ge/gte  for performance and the 5s-fe for ecomey ..  yea its like comparing apples and oranges.. but its also like  which one tastes better this time of year and apple or orange....  both are great mottor for what they are ment to do...  so i was getting at which one does what its ment to do better???  and from thinking about it.. i say the 5s is better at what it does then the 3s is ... simply just by looking at which is in more cars ??
[right][snapback]301584[/snapback][/right]

ok you can't go by just because the 5s is in more cars. toyota puts the 5s in more cars because they sell more econmy cars than they do performance hence why they have pretty much stopped makeing performance oriented cars, celica, supra, mr2

[Kwanza26]

The only reason it was designated "5S" is because the block is physically different from the 3S (taller). True the blocks vary by number, but typically with Toyota, unless the changes are fairly big, as in stroke changes or bore changes, they don't re-number the block codes. Bigger numbers doesn't always mean better... and the 5S bottom-end is by no means any better than the 3S bottom-end... in fact, the 5S is far inferior, IMO. Its not a performance oriented design...

Also, when an engine is stroked, basically the stroke value is increased. What affects the stroke value? rods, or crank. In most cases, the crank is what most affects the stroke value, although stroking an engine requires a bit more technical work than simply throwing in a crank with a larger stroke. The 5S crank can be used to "stroke" a 3S bottom-end... but regardless of the set-up, whether it be stroke with the 5S crank, or a 5SG hybrid, either custom rods or custom pistons are gonna be needed.

All in all, dispite of what the MR2 guys may want to think, the 5SFE bottom-end has a very apparent weakness when it comes to making horsepower. It has fairly short rods for its stroke, so speaking from a performance standpoint, it's not so great. The 3S on the other hand, is a squared design... and you really can't go wrong with a squared performance engine.

[bigblock261]

I would, however, love for someone to explain how replacing a crank increases displacement, since it's the size of the combustion chambers contained in the head which determine displacement.
[right][snapback]301030[/snapback][/right]

Just for the record, plain and simple, the displacement of an engine is determined by the volume of the cylinders that are swept by the pistons. Bore and stroke. Pistons and crankshaft. For 4 cylinders the formula is: bore x bore x stroke x 3.141592654 (pi).

As has been discussed, changing to a crank with a longer stroke will increase displacement, but the pistons and/or rods also have to be changed to address piston height dimension conditions, meaning the piston can travel lower into the bore but not higher than stock. A stroker kit solves all these issues.

Now, compression ratio IS determined by the size of the combustion chamber. Small chambers equal high compression.

[soulshadow]

Toyota's got a weird line up of engines. It goes somewhere from old = best to new= worst. Take a look at the 4ages and the 7mges.

4age = better than a 7afe
5mge= better than a 7mge
3s= better than a 5s

Am I right in a sense?

[samguglielmo]

So from the quick tutorial that I have gathered would it be fair to say a person with a 3sfe would simply need to change the head to make it a 3sge ??(according to material stated above)??

This post has been edited by samguglielmo: Oct 13, 2005 - 10:38 PM

[samguglielmo]

Can anyone let me know if this is a fair statement?

[Dr_Tweak]

The number has nothing to do with how "good" the engine is, it's just the number to designate that engine.

[zachattack15]

*slaps you* there you go


-----------------------

[JoKeRkId613]

If lower the number, better the engine, How could a 4age be better than a 5sfe, or a 1zz better than a 2jz?
[right][snapback]300708[/snapback][/right]

I thought the 4A-GE was stronger/better/whatever than the 5S. I don't understand what you mean by "better". Get a Blacktop 4A and I'm pretty sure you can spank a 5S.