Edo's Celica DYNO TUNE., Gained some horses :D Options

[doGGy]

Well, the wednesday here for me was the Dyno day... The first day i got Edos car, after i drove her home, i was like holy damn..... this thing is slow as hell..... So to figure out what the heck was wrong with his car, i promised Edo to go on Dyno..

So.... Just to start of everything, who aint know his car here are the main things that are done to it:

1.8 7AFE
Bored out to 82 mm
Arias Pistons from GZE
CR is rised to 11.02
Head full prot and polish
3 angle valve job
Rods, pistons, crank balanced lightned
Custom build exhaust with resonator and rear muffler only (loud mofo )
Custom build CAI with Apex'i Power Intake filter and Cold air box.
Fule perssure regulator.

And Emanage with the Ignition and Injectors wirings.

So, the first run was just to check the condition of the car with hooked up Wide band. 4 gear - till the top (6200 rpm) and we got flames (about 1 meter long!) flying out of his exhaust and wide band going crazy cuz of the RICH mixture.....

First run: 110 hp and 152nm TQ at the crank..... Bad bad bad.......

Well, second run - fuel pressure droped from 60 PSI on WOT till 50 PSI, and ignition advance at +2.

120 hp and 160nm of TQ

better but still not good..... After this Emanage tuning has been done, air flow map was adjusted a bit, and ignition map was changet at +4 in all the RPM range..

Third run: 124 hp and 164nm of TQ.........

another test of ignition at +6...... gave the best result: 127 hp and 166nm of TQ....

here is the Dyno sheet. 1 and second run curves..... You can see how much we gained in some places..... And i can say - now this thing flyes (comparing to ST's celicas ) yes, it has the power in practicly all the rance and pretty rev happy, cuz you can go all the way till 6500 and listen to this mean deep sound





later (sunday maybe) i will put a 2 video files and LOTS of pics from Groundzero performance shop, cuz they had lots of goddies laying around

As for now this is all i have

[x_itchy_b_x]

Awesome to see an ST put out nice numbers

[doGGy]

Still Edos car is missing 10-15 hp and about 25nm of TQ cuz of the Cams he is using (he has USDM 7A head, and USDM ST cuz of emision has 1 mm smaller LIFT then Euro's ST's...)

If he is going with Euro's 7A cams, he will gain even more....

[presure2]

not bad doggy, what all that cost ya? or him i should say..lol
good job!

[lagos]

crap

[FAQdaWorld]

Yeah, i dont get it?

[FallenHero]

How is the car running with the 11:1 comp ratio?

[tim86]

crap
[right][snapback]303856[/snapback][/right]

not exactly "crap"... since its an ST, not bad at all

This post has been edited by tim86: Jun 24, 2005 - 1:19 AM

[Kwanza26]

Still Edos car is missing 10-15 hp and about 25nm of TQ cuz of the Cams he is using (he has USDM 7A head, and USDM ST cuz of emision has 1 mm smaller LIFT then Euro's ST's...)

If he is going with Euro's 7A cams, he will gain even more....
[right][snapback]303772[/snapback][/right]

Not bad... very respectable numbers... but Euro cams cannot have 1mm bigger lift. That'll put them at 8mm+... which is a moderate lift. Even 3SGEs and 4AGs and such don't have that much stock lift...

Very respectable numbers...

[doGGy]

Edo messured both cams i think, i will ask him for about exact number to be sure.

[edo17982]

Ok guys I'm at work now so I just write fast thing, then be back in afternoon with more explaination.
When I had my engine rebuilt I had to trash my cams cuz they were jammed by oil pump partial failure I had.
So I got a USDM complete head to rebuid.
Once done the rebuild, p&p etc, the machine shop had to make custom bend to tap the EGR port (and Rom this could be the cause of the noise u told me) and then they called me sayng that they compared the cams and:
Exhaust cams are identical...instead the intake cam was different: same duration but different lift.
Now I don't remember the value but the difference was of exactly 1mm in lift!!!
It's much so now I need to find euro intake cam
Anyway not bad numbers for the engine, now I just have to run it, I can't wait foooooooor

[nik]

good looking numbers edo

[edo17982]

well yes and no....I mean....now temperature is high so power is not at maximum and also the camshaft thing is a limit....
U know what, to have a complete idea of what a NA 7afe could put out I'd need good header, bored TB, injector balance, that damn camshat and so we could see a final power around 140, maybe little more and a torque of 180 Nm which is like the stock 5sfe if I'm not wrong.
So...the amount to spend would be 300 at least for header and most out there are crap and I have at least 100$ in shipping oversea
Then for a good TB work maybe around 150$, and then for cam could be low if I'd find one.
Solution: TURBO. I think it will be the easier and gain/cost most effective mod.

That's it.

Anyway from 110 to more than 140hp would be not bad

[BlackSTX]

I think that's a lot bigger gain than even you're giving it credit for. Remember on the dyno, you're measuring the hp at the wheels. So it's really going from like 90 or so at the wheels to 127, and if you got it up to 140 that would be like a 50% gain. I think the 5s-fe only puts like 95 to the wheels if it's dynoed, so it's even considerably more hp than that.

[edo17982]

crap
[right][snapback]303856[/snapback][/right]

Well u're not wrong but not right same time
U know what? the thing is that swap a 3sgte is kinda easy way to get power (here I risk prison if I'd do it ) but personally I have most respect for people like Frotou, Nik and all those who try to get maximum from what is not existing (like 7AGE/GTW) or from something u have to build yourself to improve just using the engine as a basa like 7AFTE or pushed 7AFE also cause people can learn from our experiment improving every time the work and avoiding errors that can cost time and $$$.
So it's just my 2 cents opinion.....

[edo17982]

I think that's a lot bigger gain than even you're giving it credit for.  Remember on the dyno, you're measuring the hp at the wheels.  So it's really going from like 90 or so at the wheels to 127, and if you got it up to 140 that would be like a 50% gain.  I think the 5s-fe only puts like 95 to the wheels if it's dynoed, so it's even considerably more hp than that.
[right][snapback]304167[/snapback][/right]

Mmmmmm I still hadn't time to talk well with Rom but I think the power graph shows the engine power not wheel power....

[BlackSTX]

Oh yeah he does say its at the crank.

[FallenHero]

How did he measure crank hp?

So this is with a stock intake manifold?

[Kwanza26]

Exhaust cams are identical...instead the intake cam was different: same duration but different lift.
Now I don't remember the value but the difference was of exactly 1mm in lift!!!
It's much so now I need to find euro intake cam
Anyway not bad numbers for the engine, now I just have to run it, I can't wait foooooooor    
[right][snapback]304130[/snapback][/right]

Umm... USDM specs also had different intake and exhaust cam lifts. The intake side had just slightly more lift than the exhaust, but that's not saying the euro specs have a full 1mm lift more than the USDM specs... 1mm is a lot in terms of camshaft lift. Maybe your people are confusing you. Take for example, a typical toyota FE cam profile would be something like 230 degrees duration with 7mm lift... now if they were 1mm larger (8mm lift), they'd be pretty much a moderate camshaft... the sort of profile that comes in stock racy engines... something like a 4AGE blacktop 20V, which has 8mm lift on the intake lobe. Agressive lift cams are typically 9mm lift and more... stock VTEC lift is typically around 9mm to 10mm, while primarys are in the 6mm range. Based on the powerband... I'd say at best, the 7AFE's have something like 6.5-7.2mm lift on stock cams. If there are differences between the european versions and the USDM versions... it'll be nominal... definately not 1mm cause that's a huge difference. I do have USDM camshaft lobe and journal specs... but am too brain dead to degree them and figure out the duration and lift profiles...

Regardless of that... the only real way to take full advatage of your mods... is to get aftermarket camshafts with longer duration and bigger lift. I'd suggest something like 270-280 degrees duration and around 8mm lift for a good street cam...

[edo17982]

Exhaust cams are identical...instead the intake cam was different: same duration but different lift.
Now I don't remember the value but the difference was of exactly 1mm in lift!!!
It's much so now I need to find euro intake cam
Anyway not bad numbers for the engine, now I just have to run it, I can't wait foooooooor    
[right][snapback]304130[/snapback][/right]

Umm... USDM specs also had different intake and exhaust cam lifts. The intake side had just slightly more lift than the exhaust, but that's not saying the euro specs have a full 1mm lift more than the USDM specs... 1mm is a lot in terms of camshaft lift. Maybe your people are confusing you. Take for example, a typical toyota FE cam profile would be something like 230 degrees duration with 7mm lift... now if they were 1mm larger (8mm lift), they'd be pretty much a moderate camshaft... the sort of profile that comes in stock racy engines... something like a 4AGE blacktop 20V, which has 8mm lift on the intake lobe. Agressive lift cams are typically 9mm lift and more... stock VTEC lift is typically around 9mm to 10mm, while primarys are in the 6mm range. Based on the powerband... I'd say at best, the 7AFE's have something like 6.5-7.2mm lift on stock cams. If there are differences between the european versions and the USDM versions... it'll be nominal... definately not 1mm cause that's a huge difference. I do have USDM camshaft lobe and journal specs... but am too brain dead to degree them and figure out the duration and lift profiles...

Regardless of that... the only real way to take full advatage of your mods... is to get aftermarket camshafts with longer duration and bigger lift. I'd suggest something like 270-280 degrees duration and around 8mm lift for a good street cam...
[right][snapback]304371[/snapback][/right]

Believe me I would but no way to find someone making custom cams for 7afe
I already thought to thos values but....no maker = no cams

[dustin15brown]

How much money have you put into this for the extra 20 hp? can you give us a breakdown maybe? And would you recomend other 7afe's doing this for the limited power u gained?

[FallenHero]

more along the lines of 35hp. And I still want to know if the car was dynoed at the wheels.

What was the exhaust set up? Stock header? any cats?

[CelicaST18]

couldn't you just have a shop regrind the stock cam to the specs you request???

[MonsterBOX]

with those pistons and that engine build you could drop the compression and really kick some ass with a turbo up in the psi's

[doGGy]

The HP numbers are at the crank, if you look at the graph, you will see power loss curve at the very bottom. About 18 HP loss at 6K rpm.

As for exhaust - Header on Euro ST's is like on rollas, pipe header 4-2-1, Exhaust is all at 2" NO cat, one resonator (straight through) and rear muffler (straight)

Air filter - Apex'i, short ram air intake, with Cold air box.

more along the lines of 35hp.  And I still want to know if the car was dynoed at the wheels.

What was the exhaust set up?  Stock header? any cats?
[right][snapback]304699[/snapback][/right]

[FallenHero]

ok, so what is the hp at the wheels then? 128-18=110whp?

[doGGy]

Guess yea

ok, so what is the hp at the wheels then?  128-18=110whp?
[right][snapback]305111[/snapback][/right]

[dustin15brown]

so about 20-25 hp gain right? How much total went into it

[edo17982]

let's say that:

Pistons 400€
Head job (full) 500€
engine block jobs (lightening polish bore ecc) like 600€
exhaust 100€
intake: traded
Emanage +E01 (optional) 600€ more or less
FPR: 80€
Other little things...don't remember

Anyway u have to think that since my engine was blowing out I had to rebuil it so I got the moment to to those things so I can't say it costed me much cuz I need the rebuild and works in the whole count weren't so much

[FallenHero]

Wow, I love ya man, but it's time to let the 7a head go in favor of a 4ag unit. Can you do such things over there? If not, I'd do it and fab the 7afe valve cover to fit the 4ag. Claim 7a, but have da power to back it up.

[MonsterBOX]

i dont understand why youd would go through all that and only get 25hp...did u do the itbs?

[doGGy]

Get more out of the exact setup like this - and youll be a hero!

Why? Cuz someone like you would KNOW one thing - GO TURBO instead of asking questions like what N/A mod should i do to make my ST faster.....

i dont understand why youd would go through all that and only get 25hp...did u do the itbs?
[right][snapback]305597[/snapback][/right]

[FallenHero]

He was building for boost, but the compression didn't work out for that application. The 7a head is just... limitied. the 4ag with cams suitable would be great... that would drop the compression back down though...

[edo17982]

Get more out of the exact setup like this - and youll be a hero!

Why? Cuz someone like you would KNOW one thing - GO TURBO instead of asking questions like what N/A mod should i do to make my ST faster.....

i dont understand why youd would go through all that and only get 25hp...did u do the itbs?
[right][snapback]305597[/snapback][/right]

[right][snapback]305611[/snapback][/right]

Thanks bro, I wouldn't have been able to say that **** better

This post has been edited by edo17982: Jun 27, 2005 - 8:25 PM

[MonsterBOX]

Get more out of the exact setup like this - and youll be a hero!

Why? Cuz someone like you would KNOW one thing - GO TURBO instead of asking questions like what N/A mod should i do to make my ST faster.....

i dont understand why youd would go through all that and only get 25hp...did u do the itbs?
[right][snapback]305597[/snapback][/right]

[right][snapback]305611[/snapback][/right]

i understand but wasnt turbo his original intention?

[FallenHero]

He was building for boost, but the compression didn't work out for that application.  The 7a head is just... limitied.  the 4ag with cams suitable would be great... that would drop the compression back down though...
[right][snapback]305612[/snapback][/right]

Get more out of the exact setup like this - and youll be a hero!

Why? Cuz someone like you would KNOW one thing - GO TURBO instead of asking questions like what N/A mod should i do to make my ST faster.....

i dont understand why youd would go through all that and only get 25hp...did u do the itbs?
[right][snapback]305597[/snapback][/right]

[right][snapback]305611[/snapback][/right]

i understand but wasnt turbo his original intention?
[right][snapback]305820[/snapback][/right]

Yes, it was

[doGGy]

Yes, it was, but if you have 11.02 CR under your hood, where is no way to go turbo with such thing... So instead going turbo - he stoped the project and left it as N/A for some time, changed his mind few times, thought about head swap to 4AG, thought about ITB's and etc.... Almost vent with ITB's till i overtalked him AGAIN to forget about all these N/A things, and just go FI.

Cuz N/A will still just be N/A, gonna eat alot of fuel, scream like it was doing 100, but gonna go at 10.... I would understand, if this was Honda motor, all N/A with (just like the one what FallenHero posted on Off-topics), this would be a killer... But then you try to make our Amazing 7AFE the N/A monster - all you will get is just a money Eater, and smoked everyday by a stock cars...

7AFE N/A motor - NOT WORTH A PENNY, better go Turbo, blow this mofo 3 times in a row, and still this will be cheaper then to have strong running N/A 7A....

Get more out of the exact setup like this - and youll be a hero!

Why? Cuz someone like you would KNOW one thing - GO TURBO instead of asking questions like what N/A mod should i do to make my ST faster.....

i dont understand why youd would go through all that and only get 25hp...did u do the itbs?
[right][snapback]305597[/snapback][/right]

[right][snapback]305611[/snapback][/right]

i understand but wasnt turbo his original intention?
[right][snapback]305820[/snapback][/right]

[FallenHero]

agreed, this car has like.. 110 whp. Basically stock 4ag's are putting down 95ish, and the SIMPLE bolt on ones are getting over 110. I saw a ITB one the other day with cams make 115 at the wheels. And, it was RWD, so there was more drivetrain loss.

7a=-not a NA motor in 7afe form. 7age... we'll see.

[MonsterBOX]

yea but all the head work he did switching now would just suck

[FallenHero]

which is why I'd slap on a high quality thick head gasket and boost the hell out of it.

[doGGy]

I told the same to Edo, he should get HKS 2 mm 6 layers metal head gasket and put it on, and then just slap the turbo... But he aint listen to me

which is why I'd slap on a high quality thick head gasket and boost the hell out of it.
[right][snapback]306374[/snapback][/right]

[FallenHero]

I told the same to Edo, he should get HKS 2 mm 6 layers metal head gasket and put it on, and then just slap the turbo... But he aint listen to me

which is why I'd slap on a high quality thick head gasket and boost the hell out of it.
[right][snapback]306374[/snapback][/right]

[right][snapback]306414[/snapback][/right]

He aint? lol, So you're from Alabama also ehh?

EDO, LISTEN TO ROMAS!

[playr158]

don't use a think head gasket it will blow

EDO listen to me

get custom low comp pistons with me

This post has been edited by playr158: Jun 29, 2005 - 11:36 AM

[FallenHero]

don't use a think head gasket it will blow

EDO listen to me

get custom low comp pistons with me
[right][snapback]306510[/snapback][/right]

as long as he gets a quality one it won't. They are, after all, made for it. Plus, he has already had his crank balanced with the pistons he has, so getting new pistons could be a problem... he also JUST re-built the engine.

This post has been edited by FallenHero: Jun 29, 2005 - 11:51 AM

[playr158]

true true

but considering stock cr is like 9.5:1 and my ideal is like 8.5:1 how thick of a headgasket would you need? and i mean for edo he's at like wat
11.5:1? he'd need a pretty thick one?

[FallenHero]

in all honesty, 7th gen celicas boost safely to over 250whp, and they run 11.5:1 compression. If you could get it down to 10:1 or in the 9's, that would significantly reduce risk. All in all htough, tuning is what is needed. Lower compression is just widens the errors less detramental.

[doGGy]

Playr, you aint reading again....... He is at 11.02:1.... Im at 10.8 with GZE pistons.... Using 2 mm head gasket at 10.8:1 CR i will get the 9.2 CR...... so in Edos case he will ge around 9.5 - 9.8, as for exact nnumber i have to count..

true true

but considering stock cr is like 9.5:1 and my ideal is like 8.5:1 how thick of a headgasket would you need? and i mean for edo he's at like wat
11.5:1? he'd need a pretty thick one?
[right][snapback]306541[/snapback][/right]

[doGGy]

Not only tuning..... Higher CR means higher Octane fuel. And hig CR and Boost means almost race fuel.... Detonation would kill.....

in all honesty, 7th gen celicas boost safely to over 250whp, and they run 11.5:1 compression.  If you could get it down to 10:1 or in the 9's, that would significantly reduce risk.  All in all htough, tuning is what is needed.  Lower compression is just widens the errors less detramental.
[right][snapback]306591[/snapback][/right]

[FallenHero]

oh, I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that those seventh gen guys are making good power. You just can't screw anything up or the engine will have a short life.

[playr158]

so are we back to the forget custom pistons and use
4agze pistons with a HKS 2mm 6-layer metal headgasket?

[FallenHero]

no, the custom pistons would be better, but they cost money.

[JoKeRkId613]

i dont get it... in the first run, it says hp is 110... isnt that what st's come with stock??? because it says compression is 11 whatever. obviously this car has performance mods. i dont understand.

[OOBE]

They come with that to the crank, which is like 8x-9x to the wheels depending on various factors.

[edo17982]

i dont get it... in the first run, it says hp is 110... isnt that what st's come with stock??? because it says compression is 11 whatever. obviously this car has performance mods. i dont understand.
[right][snapback]307529[/snapback][/right]

Well yes but mixture was rich as hell, that's the reason it only gave power as stock

[JoKeRkId613]

still dont get it. lol. so whats the hp when everything is working correctly? with a perfect mixture and all that.

[Hanyo]

still dont get it. lol. so whats the hp when everything is working correctly? with a perfect mixture and all that.
[right][snapback]307853[/snapback][/right]

127 hp at the crank.

[nik]

edo sell the head and come to the dark side (7age or 7agte)

[edo17982]

Well nick I'm gonna come to gark side but still not sure if the side is for 7AFTE or 7AGTE.
If doing 7afte I'd just need few things, instead if doing a 7AGTE I want to build it seriously to reach at least 300WHP so good internals etc, and to do so I'd need a spare blocks, a spare GE head and then all new electronic etc and really I dunno if at this point I would build an entire engine....
Well, we'll see what will happens

[FallenHero]

for sake of easiness, I'd just get a thicker head gasket and be done with it.

Jon

[nik]

for sake of easiness, I'd just get a thicker head gasket and be done with it.

Jon
[right][snapback]309181[/snapback][/right]

yeah and turbo it with a good t3 turbo at about 10 psi thens its a whole different car

[JoKeRkId613]

127? thats nothing... for buying gze pistons and all that other stuff. thats a lot of money and all youre getting is 17 horses? i got 185 hp with the flip of a switch. and then that'd also mean i have a blown engine. lol. so it stays at 110 for me right now.

[edo17982]

127? thats nothing... for buying gze pistons and all that other stuff. thats a lot of money and all youre getting is 17 horses? i got 185 hp with the flip of a switch.  and then that'd also mean i have a blown engine. lol. so it stays at 110 for me right now.
[right][snapback]309246[/snapback][/right]

Well since u blown it as for now I have 127 hp and u 110
Anyway the gain is proportional to the type of engine so people who have good engine knowledge say: for that type of engine is a good gain; people who just know numbers say: oh only few hp for those money?

This post has been edited by edo17982: Jul 6, 2005 - 4:55 PM

[Hanyo]

127? thats nothing... for buying gze pistons and all that other stuff. thats a lot of money and all youre getting is 17 horses? i got 185 hp with the flip of a switch.  and then that'd also mean i have a blown engine. lol. so it stays at 110 for me right now.
[right][snapback]309246[/snapback][/right]

he only has a 17hp gain, but he is getting more hp and torque at other area's of the power band compared to a normal 7a.

[doGGy]

Exactly, in some areas he is gaining about +25Hp, but in total curve it is +17Hp...

he only has a 17hp gain, but he is getting more hp and torque at other area's of the power band compared to a normal 7a.
[right][snapback]309931[/snapback][/right]