best N/A engine, for toyota Options

[Hanyo]

What is the best Naturally Aspired engine for toyota?

I hear beams and silver top thrown around. But what is the BEST? Which one has the most power to weight ratio? Most power after modifications?

Is the 7th gen gts engine the best n/a engine toyota offers?

[FallenHero]

Probably is the 2zz for power and reliability. However, the formula atlantic 20v's were animals on the race track.

[orvillescelica]

3sge beams black top, but youll never find one in this country

[ST-204]

Nope, it has one swapped 3S-GE "BEAMS"-blacktop IS300 in Cali, this car was fecking cool with golden color.

[Coomer]

I've heard bad things about the 2ZZ-GE's design and components compared to the 4A-GE and 3S-GE. Isn't it a weaker aluminum block compared to the 4A and 3S iron blocks? I've experienced both a 4A-GE and a 3S-GE in my cars, and the 3S-GE felt torquier, but lacked the high RPM power that I get with my 4A-GE. I've never experienced a later-model 3S-GE or a blacktop 4A-GE though, but both the 4A-GE and 3S-GE are excellent engines.

[Hanyo]

i always thought the beams engine was the best, Because there is no replacement for displacement.

But with its additional displacement, comes additionaly weight. Is this extra displacement good enough to offset the extra weight?

[Dr_Tweak]

i always thought the beams engine was the best, Because there is no replacement for displacement.

But with its additional displacement, comes additionaly weight. Is this extra displacement good enough to offset the extra weight?
[right][snapback]336862[/snapback][/right]

Yeah, I'd say so. If I had to choose an n/a four cylinder, it would be the 3SGE Beams without a doubt.

-Doc

[macavely]

power to weight that has to dowith the chasie and the engine combo .

for what i have read and ther resarch i have done.. it all comes down to how much time and money you are willing to put into the block .. but if you want a good starting point i would go with the 3s ge black top...

[Akimbo]

beams or 2zz...the 2zz ran a 13.7 with I/E/H, I don't know much about either though

[FallenHero]

2zz is whp per ltr.and that 13.7 was with drag slicks I believe.... still impressive though.

You can add a Apexi PFC to the 2zz and consistently run low 14's with no other mods. Throw in the I, E, H, and you are making 180-200 whp NA.

[boosted_K2]

depends what you are talking about... car+motor factory combonation is probably the blacktop 3sge in the celica or the 2zz in the 7th gen celica... but if you are talking swapped... a 1mzfe in a 1st or 2nd gen MR2 is probably the best NA combo for all around... for streightline the V8 swapped 5th gen is probably tops (i think it was using a toyota truck motor wasnt it? or was it a domestic motor?)

[Boss-Celica]

Beams 3s or 20v 4age

[Coomer]

depends what you are talking about... car+motor factory combonation is probably the blacktop 3sge in the celica or the 2zz in the 7th gen celica... but if you are talking swapped... a 1mzfe in a 1st or 2nd gen MR2 is probably the best NA combo for all around... for streightline the V8 swapped 5th gen is probably tops (i think it was using a toyota truck motor wasnt it? or was it a domestic motor?)
[right][snapback]336944[/snapback][/right]

The blacktop BEAMS 3S-GE motor was only found in the Altezza...the Celica got the redtop version.

And yeah, that V8 swapped ST185 used a Tundra V8...wasn't it twin-turbocharged as well?

[95CelicaST]

Beams, no doubt. 4 cylinder with 210HP stock (redtop) is something I would say is pretty damn good.

[Shigexile]

Beams, no doubt. 4 cylinder with 210HP stock (redtop) is something I would say is pretty damn good.
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i thought the black top is 210.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

depends what you are talking about... car+motor factory combonation is probably the blacktop 3sge in the celica or the 2zz in the 7th gen celica... but if you are talking swapped... a 1mzfe in a 1st or 2nd gen MR2 is probably the best NA combo for all around... for streightline the V8 swapped 5th gen is probably tops (i think it was using a toyota truck motor wasnt it? or was it a domestic motor?)
[right][snapback]336944[/snapback][/right]

The blacktop BEAMS 3S-GE motor was only found in the Altezza...the Celica got the redtop version.

And yeah, that V8 swapped ST185 used a Tundra V8...wasn't it twin-turbocharged as well?
[right][snapback]336962[/snapback][/right]

No. The V8 swapped ST185 used a 4.0L V8 from a Lexus LS400. And indeed it was twin-turbocharged.

Back to topic, IMO 4A-GE and 3S-GE are the best. The 2ZZ-GE can be as good but it needs more aftermarket. There still ain't no cams for the damn thing. Highest HP 4A-GE i've seen is the 240HP Formula Atlantic engine. Highest HP 3S-GE i've seen is the 270PS TRD engine. Still waiting on the 2ZZ-GE to come out with similar numbers.

Redtop = 200PS
Blacktop = 210PS

This post has been edited by BLADDER_MASTER: Sep 21, 2005 - 2:46 PM

[pokemeintheeye]

I know everyones talking bout the blacktop Beams, but how much better is a redtop Beams compared to the 3rd generation 3sge? I'd imagine the 3rd generation 3sge should have more aftermarket support cause the redtop Beams was only around for a couple of years. But how much better is it compared to the 3rd generation 3sge?

[ST-204]

But IMO,
I do think Honda F-20C, B-18C and K-20A engine ar three of the best N/A engines on the market now thou
Especially, S2000's F20c is the best 2 L. 4 cyclinder engine.

[Shigexile]

But IMO,
I do think Honda F-20C, B-18C and K-20A engine ar three of the best N/A engines on the market now thou
Especially, S2000's F20c is the best 2 L. 4 cyclinder engine.
[right][snapback]337109[/snapback][/right]

k20 is crazy... man... DC5

[boosted_K2]

yea sorry i meant redtop, not blacktop i was looking at a black crows CD case and was thinking black and meant to say red haha

[ST-204]

But IMO,
I do think Honda F-20C, B-18C and K-20A engine ar three of the best N/A engines on the market now thou
Especially, S2000's F20c is the best 2 L. 4 cyclinder engine.
[right][snapback]337109[/snapback][/right]

k20 is crazy... man... DC5
[right][snapback]337146[/snapback][/right]

Yes, it really does!
Coz K20 copies all goodness technologies from 2ZZ, it produces more hp than 2ZZ. But anyway, it's 2L engine.

[Kwanza26]

Yes, it really does!
Coz K20 copies all goodness technologies from 2ZZ, it produces more hp than 2ZZ. But anyway, it's 2L engine.
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LOL... if anything... the 2ZZ copied VTEC. K20A is a FAR FAR FAR better engine than a 2ZZ... IMO (much better than an F20C also). That's one strong arse engine. As for the 2ZZ... in terms of strength... I'd say it's OK. Not bad enough to worry... but not super strong as to not worry. I'm not so worried about the bottom-end however, as I am about the head.

As for toyota's best n/a engine... well... 2ZZ is by far the best for street performance. It makes the most power per liter, has the best potential for streetable power, and is newer. The BEAMS are cool and all... but they don't have any significant advantage aside from their displacement. The 4AG's are old school. They're solid engines, but they'll need significant mods to simply be able to hang with the likes of a 2ZZGE or 3SGE. If you're building a street car... 2ZZ is probably the best. If you're building a race engine... nothing will beat the 3SGE's potential...

[FallenHero]

Yes, it really does!
Coz K20 copies all goodness technologies from 2ZZ, it produces more hp than 2ZZ. But anyway, it's 2L engine.
[right][snapback]337188[/snapback][/right]

LOL... if anything... the 2ZZ copied VTEC. K20A is a FAR FAR FAR better engine than a 2ZZ... IMO (much better than an F20C also). That's one strong arse engine. As for the 2ZZ... in terms of strength... I'd say it's OK. Not bad enough to worry... but not super strong as to not worry. I'm not so worried about the bottom-end however, as I am about the head.

As for toyota's best n/a engine... well... 2ZZ is by far the best for street performance. It makes the most power per liter, has the best potential for streetable power, and is newer. The BEAMS are cool and all... but they don't have any significant advantage aside from their displacement. The 4AG's are old school. They're solid engines, but they'll need significant mods to simply be able to hang with the likes of a 2ZZGE or 3SGE. If you're building a street car... 2ZZ is probably the best. If you're building a race engine... nothing will beat the 3SGE's potential...
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What he said

[Hanyo]

who fast is a 6gc with the 2zz swap?

isn't the 6th gen heavier then the 7th?

[jdg371]

the 3.5 v6 (IS350) sounds like a crazy arse N/A motor

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

I really like the 2ZZGE alot, its a very fun motor and sounds mean as hell....but its been known to have some problems with the lift bolt breaking on earlier GT-S's. I would say the 4AGE and 3SGE have the upper hand because of their potential and proven durability, but the 2ZZGE is a close third because it was very innovative at the time it was released.

If Toyota would only put a newer improved version with a wider lift range and put it in a Scion or Toyota sport coupe it would be great, but it appears its no longer in Toyotas interest.

[SSJChar]

what are the specs on the 2zz engine? how easy/hard is it to get one into a 6gc gt, and get it working? when i went to go dyno my car, a 7th gen was there too, and he put down... 140hp i think, so around 35 hp more than me. if i ever needed a new engine, i was thinking of either getting a 3sgte, or a beams, but if the 2zz engine is not as expensive, and the swap is easy, might as well.

[jdg371]

I thought the 2ZZ was more expensive than a 2nd gen 3S?

Even if it IS cheaper getting it to work will probably be alot

[bonzaisushi]

Aluminum is for pop cans give me a 3s or 4a

This post has been edited by bonzaisushi: Sep 25, 2005 - 7:26 PM

[Kwanza26]

Aluminum is for pop cans give me a 3s or 4a
[right][snapback]338248[/snapback][/right]

That's a lame reason...

SR20's are aluminum horsepower engines... and they eat boost like candy. Given iron is stronger... but it doesn't really have a distinct advantage besides that, and with modern technology, design and manufacturing advacements, aluminum is VERY strong. Basically all new engines are all aluminum and engines like the K20A, VQ35DE, and even the older Honda B series have all eaten boost with great success...

[BLADDER_MASTER]

Aluminum is for pop cans give me a 3s or 4a
[right][snapback]338248[/snapback][/right]

That's a lame reason...

SR20's are aluminum horsepower engines... and they eat boost like candy. Given iron is stronger... but it doesn't really have a distinct advantage besides that, and with modern technology, design and manufacturing advacements, aluminum is VERY strong. Basically all new engines are all aluminum and engines like the K20A, VQ35DE, and even the older Honda B series have all eaten boost with great success...
[right][snapback]338313[/snapback][/right]

Very true.

[Celica_Fan]

Best engine 3S-GE That sounds mean as when it's revved hard

[recneps]

im gonna pop in here and say 2zz-ge, im biased.

the higest hp 2zz-ge was 245whp, with a stroked motor and 13:1 pistons.

the 2zz is a great motor and i love reving the hell out of it, but the 3sge is nice seeing how you dont have to go into the stratosphere searching for torque/power.

but 105 hp a litre is nice, whats the displacement of the black top 3s-ge, the 220 hp model?


the 4g63 shoudlnt even come into the equation, its very old technology sure 240bhp is great from a 1.6l but it woudl be nothing compared to a equally prepped 2zz-ge.

Tunable VVT is the best thing toyota ever did.

[Shigexile]

Aluminum is for pop cans give me a 3s or 4a
[right][snapback]338248[/snapback][/right]

That's a lame reason...

SR20's are aluminum horsepower engines... and they eat boost like candy. Given iron is stronger... but it doesn't really have a distinct advantage besides that, and with modern technology, design and manufacturing advacements, aluminum is VERY strong. Basically all new engines are all aluminum and engines like the K20A, VQ35DE, and even the older Honda B series have all eaten boost with great success...
[right][snapback]338313[/snapback][/right]

ooo i like the SR20.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

im gonna pop in here and say 2zz-ge, im biased.

the higest hp 2zz-ge was 245whp, with a stroked motor and 13:1 pistons.

the 2zz is a great motor and i love reving the hell out of it, but the 3sge is nice seeing how you dont have to go into the stratosphere searching for torque/power.

but 105 hp a litre is nice, whats the displacement of the black top 3s-ge, the 220 hp model?


the 4g63 shoudlnt even come into the equation, its very old technology sure 240bhp is great from a 1.6l but it woudl be nothing compared to a equally prepped 2zz-ge.

Tunable VVT is the best thing toyota ever did.
[right][snapback]338413[/snapback][/right]

What the **** are you talking about?

[jess_i_74]

If Toyota would only put a newer improved version with a wider lift range and put it in a Scion or Toyota sport coupe it would be great, but it appears its no longer in Toyotas interest.
[right][snapback]337812[/snapback][/right]

Heh. Toyota doesn't seem to know much anymore about sporty cars. I mean, cancelling the Celica, bringing in the ugly Scion xA, B, and C, esp. the first two with their *gasp* 105 horses and styling every bit as bad as the echo. Now the xC does have some speed potential, but it's loaded with luxo options and can't touch a Celica of any vintage for looks.

Oh, offtopic. Sorry.

BTW, the idea of the 190 hp out of 1.8 L is crazy, but it certainly fits the Lotus Elise. As a daily driver I'm sure it feels pedestrian. I like the feel of having an engine's ship come in at about 3-4k.

[ST-204]

If Toyota would only put a newer improved version with a wider lift range and put it in a Scion or Toyota sport coupe it would be great, but it appears its no longer in Toyotas interest.
[right][snapback]337812[/snapback][/right]

Heh. Toyota doesn't seem to know much anymore about sporty cars. I mean, cancelling the Celica, bringing in the ugly Scion xA, B, and C, esp. the first two with their *gasp* 105 horses and styling every bit as bad as the echo. Now the xC does have some speed potential, but it's loaded with luxo options and can't touch a Celica of any vintage for looks.

Oh, offtopic. Sorry.

BTW, the idea of the 190 hp out of 1.8 L is crazy, but it certainly fits the Lotus Elise. As a daily driver I'm sure it feels pedestrian. I like the feel of having an engine's ship come in at about 3-4k.
[right][snapback]338544[/snapback][/right]

"Toyota doesn't seem to know much anymore about sporty cars??"
For real, years ago, Toyota began to join the world's fastest auto race--Formula One. Toyota began to process and make everything for their rides, such as frame, engine, aero, and even small as a screw in their Formula One race car.
I think Toyota is not a stupid to spend so much their technologies and effort for this ****ing long time in this challenge F-1 race world, right?
Let's see, guys. Toyota should be release a super race car at a right time...
On the other hand, so do u think Honda is a sport car specialist?
Yea, Honda's cars ar fast on Street, and even on some division 2 race around the world, such as JGTC GT-300, Super-Taikyu.....
But the reason is can u see any NSX or S2000 can win some division 1 race on the workd, I can tell u the answer is "NEVER!"
Moreover, due to Toyota is the second-largest auto manufacturer in the world, his market goal is for all consumers, so Toyota seems to release more luxury and comfortable cars than sport cars. That's why the reason Honda can't catch up Toyota's sales in the world, and even Toyota's technologies.......

V-tech and i-Vtech ar so good at all, but VVTi and VVTL-i ar kind of more Hi-tech a bit than the former.... Coz the technology on VVTi and VVTL-i ar on both intake sides when it's running, but Honda's V-tech and EVEN i-Vtech ar only on one intake side. So Toyota's race technologies ar directly comeing from their valuable F-1 experience, and even their consumers all over the world......

[Kwanza26]

V-tech and i-Vtech ar so good at all, but VVTi and VVTL-i ar kind of more Hi-tech a bit than the former.... Coz the technology on VVTi and VVTL-i ar on both intake sides when it's running, but Honda's V-tech and EVEN i-Vtech ar only on one intake side. So Toyota's race technologies ar directly comeing from their valuable F-1 experience, and even their consumers all over the world......
[right][snapback]339122[/snapback][/right]

You should just apologize and admit you don't know what you're talking about. You should also work on your grammar and spelling.

[BLADDER_MASTER]

V-tech and i-Vtech ar so good at all, but VVTi and VVTL-i ar kind of more Hi-tech a bit than the former.... Coz the technology on VVTi and VVTL-i ar on both intake sides when it's running, but Honda's V-tech and EVEN i-Vtech ar only on one intake side. So Toyota's race technologies ar directly comeing from their valuable F-1 experience, and even their consumers all over the world......
[right][snapback]339122[/snapback][/right]

You should just apologize and admit you don't know what you're talking about. You should also work on your grammar and spelling.
[right][snapback]339211[/snapback][/right]

lmao. shift_pwned

[Celicaguy13]

When talking about the 3sge beams vs 2zz-ge, all of you are talking about a jdm vs usdm engine. The jdm celica sports M celica has a upgraded 2zz-ge that if I remember correctly is about 200-210 hp. I'm not saying the 3s is bad or the 2zz is better. It's just that the 3s is such a rare engine that we don't really know much about. I cant find any dynos of it. Any 1/4 mile times with it. But IMHO the jdm 2zz and the 3s beams are same in power STOCK.

Any N/A engine can be great but with work. Honda people sometimes annoy me with the whole "honda is the best" because from the factory.... Honda's arnt really that fast. They're fastest car is a S2000 and only hits low 14's to high 13's, but that is a real "fast car" I guess you want to say. Everything else they make is 15.0+ And they're supposively "Super car" the NSX I think can only hit low 13's high 12's???? I dont think it's worth paying 85k on something a slightly modded supra could beat. But this is all just what I think and not trying to state facts.

[Shigexile]

When talking about the 3sge beams vs 2zz-ge, all of you are talking about a jdm vs usdm engine. The jdm celica sports M celica has a upgraded 2zz-ge that if I remember correctly is about 200-210 hp.
[right][snapback]339750[/snapback][/right]

190ps or so i thought

This post has been edited by Shigexile: Sep 30, 2005 - 8:41 AM

[Shigexile]

Any N/A engine can be great but with work. Honda people sometimes annoy me with the whole "honda is the best" because from the factory.... Honda's arnt really that fast. They're fastest car is a S2000 and only hits low 14's to high 13's, but that is a real "fast car" I guess you want to say. Everything else they make is 15.0+ And they're supposively "Super car" the NSX I think can only hit low 13's high 12's???? I dont think it's worth paying 85k on something a slightly modded supra could beat. But this is all just what I think and not trying to state facts.
[right][snapback]339750[/snapback][/right]

honda has so many (too many) after market parts to put on that builds up the engine to go fast... its not fair.

This post has been edited by Shigexile: Sep 30, 2005 - 8:43 AM

[BLADDER_MASTER]

When talking about the 3sge beams vs 2zz-ge, all of you are talking about a jdm vs usdm engine. The jdm celica sports M celica has a upgraded 2zz-ge that if I remember correctly is about 200-210 hp.
[right][snapback]339750[/snapback][/right]

190ps or so i thought
[right][snapback]339828[/snapback][/right]

He's right. The 2ZZ-GE in the TRD Celica Sports M has 210PS.

[macavely]

When talking about the 3sge beams vs 2zz-ge, all of you are talking about a jdm vs usdm engine. The jdm celica sports M celica has a upgraded 2zz-ge that if I remember correctly is about 200-210 hp.
[right][snapback]339750[/snapback][/right]

190ps or so i thought
[right][snapback]339828[/snapback][/right]

He's right. The 2ZZ-GE in the TRD Celica Sports M has 210PS.
[right][snapback]339944[/snapback][/right]

isn't the ecu programmed diffrenet and also doesn't it not have and egr system ?

[Celicaguy13]

The elise is the one that has 190. I honestly don't know much about what they did to get 210, all I know is that it exists and they were sold in japan. I'm not sure if it has EGR or not but from what I remember neither does the 3sge beams.

[Shigexile]

When talking about the 3sge beams vs 2zz-ge, all of you are talking about a jdm vs usdm engine. The jdm celica sports M celica has a upgraded 2zz-ge that if I remember correctly is about 200-210 hp.
[right][snapback]339750[/snapback][/right]

190ps or so i thought
[right][snapback]339828[/snapback][/right]

He's right. The 2ZZ-GE in the TRD Celica Sports M has 210PS.
[right][snapback]339944[/snapback][/right]

ohh i see. i thought he ment like stock gts

[BLADDER_MASTER]

When talking about the 3sge beams vs 2zz-ge, all of you are talking about a jdm vs usdm engine. The jdm celica sports M celica has a upgraded 2zz-ge that if I remember correctly is about 200-210 hp.
[right][snapback]339750[/snapback][/right]

190ps or so i thought
[right][snapback]339828[/snapback][/right]

He's right. The 2ZZ-GE in the TRD Celica Sports M has 210PS.
[right][snapback]339944[/snapback][/right]

isn't the ecu programmed diffrenet and also doesn't it not have and egr system ?
[right][snapback]339963[/snapback][/right]

More than that. The whole engine got re-done using lighter pistons, re-profiled camshafts, lighter valves and a lighter flywheel. It's like the Type R of Celica's. Only a small limited amount of Sports M's were available for sale.

Edit: Whoops, made an error. The TRD Celica Sports M has 200PS and not 210PS like I stated earlier.

This post has been edited by BLADDER_MASTER: Sep 30, 2005 - 7:45 PM

[macavely]

still thats not bad.... something to think about when rebuilding an engine ..

[Kwanza26]

200ps is like 195hp... whoopie! 5hp more than the stock overseas versions... ;] The TRD version weren't exactly highly tuned (engine-wise)... very light tuning with a body kit and wheels more or less...

Any N/A engine can be great but with work. Honda people sometimes annoy me with the whole "honda is the best" because from the factory.... Honda's arnt really that fast. They're fastest car is a S2000 and only hits low 14's to high 13's, but that is a real "fast car" I guess you want to say. Everything else they make is 15.0+ And they're supposively "Super car" the NSX I think can only hit low 13's high 12's???? I dont think it's worth paying 85k on something a slightly modded supra could beat. But this is all just what I think and not trying to state facts.

Unless you know Hondas... don't start talking Hondas. Hondas aren't fast from the factory... but depends on how you define "fast". USDM ST185 Celicas weren't fast either then (stock high 15 car), nor is the MR2 turbo (stock mid 15 car). These cars all have... what's that word... oh yeah. POTENTIAL... 200HP n/a from the factory is pretty damn decent to me, especially since these engines can squeeze an additional 20-30 whp with minor bolt-ons (especially the K series). Name another factory car in that same class that can match 200hp n/a with that buildability... I can only think of one (Celica SSIII)... Also... unless you've built and raced cars on the strip, or at least have ventured there more than once or twice... don't assume to know what's fast and what's not fast. FYI... low 14's to high 13's is very fast for most street built n/a 4 bangers. Low 14's to high 13's can handle just about 80% of the cars on the road. Even the 3SGTE swapped Celicas can only manage high 13's with the stock turbo... so what's so bad about running high 13's? High 13's is fast enough to embarass C6 corvettes especially since they'll underestimate you and your 4 banger. Maybe your standards for a fast car is worthy of being fast and furious... but in real life... most decently quick street cars are high 13 cars... simply because exponential increase in power is needed to break into the 12-11 second barriers (which means $$$). And... and NSX cannot run 12's... nor is comparing a stock NSX to a "modded" Supra fair. Hell... if I wanted a fast car I'd buy a starlet and drop in a 405 big block. Much cheaper than a Supra... but obviously people pay 85K for an NSX for other reasons than running the 1/4 mile. Think about that for a second. You know what I hate... bias against Honda because "it's cool for loyal Toyota tuners to hate on Honda"...

Simple question to ask yourself... How many car manufactures can boast 120 hp per liter STOCK?

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: Sep 30, 2005 - 10:45 PM

[Celicaguy13]

200ps is like 195hp... whoopie!  5hp more than the stock overseas versions... ;]  The TRD version weren't exactly highly tuned (engine-wise)... very light tuning with a body kit and wheels more or less...

Any N/A engine can be great but with work. Honda people sometimes annoy me with the whole "honda is the best" because from the factory.... Honda's arnt really that fast. They're fastest car is a S2000 and only hits low 14's to high 13's, but that is a real "fast car" I guess you want to say. Everything else they make is 15.0+ And they're supposively "Super car" the NSX I think can only hit low 13's high 12's???? I dont think it's worth paying 85k on something a slightly modded supra could beat. But this is all just what I think and not trying to state facts.

Unless you know Hondas... don't start talking Hondas. Hondas aren't fast from the factory... but depends on how you define "fast". USDM ST185 Celicas weren't fast either then (stock high 15 car), nor is the MR2 turbo (stock mid 15 car). These cars all have... what's that word... oh yeah. POTENTIAL... 200HP n/a from the factory is pretty damn decent to me, especially since these engines can squeeze an additional 20-30 whp with minor bolt-ons (especially the K series). Name another factory car in that same class that can match 200hp n/a with that buildability... I can only think of one (Celica SSIII)... Also... unless you've built and raced cars on the strip, or at least have ventured there more than once or twice... don't assume to know what's fast and what's not fast. FYI... low 14's to high 13's is very fast for most street built n/a 4 bangers. Low 14's to high 13's can handle just about 80% of the cars on the road. Even the 3SGTE swapped Celicas can only manage high 13's with the stock turbo... so what's so bad about running high 13's? High 13's is fast enough to embarass C6 corvettes especially since they'll underestimate you and your 4 banger. Maybe your standards for a fast car is worthy of being fast and furious... but in real life... most decently quick street cars are high 13 cars... simply because exponential increase in power is needed to break into the 12-11 second barriers (which means $$$). And... and NSX cannot run 12's... nor is comparing a stock NSX to a "modded" Supra fair. Hell... if I wanted a fast car I'd buy a starlet and drop in a 405 big block. Much cheaper than a Supra... but obviously people pay 85K for an NSX for other reasons than running the 1/4 mile. Think about that for a second. You know what I hate... bias against Honda because "it's cool for loyal Toyota tuners to hate on Honda"...

Simple question to ask yourself... How many car manufactures can boast 120 hp per liter STOCK?
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But this is all just what I think and not trying to state facts.
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Damn lets not have opinions here anymore because some people dont read. Did I ever say toyotas or celicas were better. I said "STOCK" I read about 2 sentences of your post then skimmed it and saw "blah blah blah I know everything blah blah big block blah blah"

Just to let you know, I've owned more hondas and tuned more hondas then toyotas, so do us all a favor and think and try to be a little courteous next time you post. thank you.

By the way, If I would have said something close to what you posted it would have sounded a little like this...

Hi everyone. Hondas suck a$$. They are worthless and stupid and smell. Anyone who buys them are complete RICERs! Yeah they are powerless and dont make any power what so ever from modds. They are nothing compared to toyotas now. Like the awesome AWD TURBO!!! That's right you heard right TURBO! celica that's really really fast and is unbeatable. And you cannot forget about the Even faster MR2 TURBO!!! And trust me, I KNOW WHAT IS FAST! It's just plain fact that I know everything and know the actual meaning of "FAST" when talking about cars. You know what else I hate... bias against Toyota because "it's cool for loyal Honda tuners to hate on Toyotas"................ because they're better!!!

This post has been edited by Celicaguy13: Oct 1, 2005 - 1:36 AM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

You know what I hate... bias against Honda because "it's cool for loyal Toyota tuners to hate on Honda"... 
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I'll second that. I've spent a good bit of time with this issue on here.

[Celicaguy13]

You know what I hate... bias against Honda because "it's cool for loyal Toyota tuners to hate on Honda"... 
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I'll second that. I've spent a good bit of time with this issue on here.
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If you all think about it.... That's how it is on any side. That's not how I am. Quite frankly, I don't give a crap. I honestly am one of those people that no matter what kind of car you have, it's cool with me because that's your project and you have the same hobby as I do. As long as its not riced out to the point where it hurts your ears or your yelling to the person next to you because of some farty exhaust, or a wing bigger then rod millens on pikes peek.

[Celicaguy13]

By the way, sorry for being a dick.

[Hanyo]

BUMP FROM THE DEAD!!!


how much potential does the beams have?

lets assume the beams gets 195 hp at the flywheel. How much horsepower will you expect to get from bolt on tuning. (AKA intake header and exhaust).

[macavely]

with any engine the potential is found by failuer (sp) .... if you mean with stock internals /fuel/air/ecm ... i couldn't tell you ..don't have the engine .. but with the and S blaok and GE head.. the potental are up there ..... if you looking on the over seas borads... you will find alot of usefully infor to those guestions... and don't be scared to pick up the phone call performance shop.... reace teams ans ask questions... you'll be suprised how much info you can find by just picking up the phone ..

[Hanyo]

i know the ge head and the 11 compression ratio will make serious horsepower. But toyota doesnt cheap-out as badly on the intake and exhaust like honda does. So the performance increase might not be as signifacant.

[FallenHero]

beams... I wonder how the pistons/rods are... that is your indicator. If they are solid (like most 3SG's) you could mill the head down and get higher compression, run a 4-1 exhaust system, and get some nice ITB's and have Serious power. I'd dare say you'd make as much whp NA as the S2000, and would likely have more torque. Still, however, it is 4:00a.m. here so I might be babbling.

[Hanyo]

higher compression ratio?

the beams already has 11.0:1. Isn't 12:1 ratio the limit for pump gas?

[FallenHero]

I have heard of 13:1 on 93 octane. And I do say "heard." However, the difference between 11:1 and 12:1 would be quite pronounced.

[bonzaisushi]

Aluminum is for pop cans....

4age, Ra24




Im not a honda fan boy at all, but when people say that the NSX is gay because it runs low 13s for payin 80k it just pisses me off, i have a friend who owns a 94 nsx...... it wasnt neck wrenching fast on the streets, but on the course it was effing amazing! the NSX wasnt made to race a corvette, or viper, it was made to show up the 355/360 on the tracks, and it pretty much did.

This post has been edited by bonzaisushi: Oct 13, 2005 - 3:23 PM

[Outsider]

I'd have to say for N/A it's BEAMS.

but then I'm a bit biased.

[snowbunny]

2JZ-GTE

'."


+1

[vangSTa_celica]

So the 2JZ-GTE is a N/A engine? HmmMMmm...

[Hanyo]

yes its a n/a engine. Its n/a before 3k rpm before the turbo spools.

[creis]

^ actualy a true NA (2JZ-GE) motor would be better in the 0-3k rpm rage because it does not have to run the turbo, although once the turbo spools its no contest. although its such a small diff it really does not matter.

Does the 4A-GZE cound as an N/A?

how about the 3.3 ltr Solara V6 (225 ish hp I think)
the motor in the FJ crouser has good numbers (240 hp v6)

or the 3S-GE

basicly Toyota has a good history of good motors

[maikl]

my engine? ti thing the main thing for you is to tell ushow much money you are willing to give for your swap..... but i will go with ANY 3s-ge they have ALOT of pottencials (i thing my spelling sucs) !

[bonzaisushi]

^ actualy a true NA (2JZ-GE) motor would be better in the 0-3k rpm rage because it does not have to run the turbo, although once the turbo spools its no contest. although its such a small diff it really does not matter.

Does the 4A-GZE cound as an N/A?

how about the 3.3 ltr Solara V6 (225 ish hp I think)
the motor in the FJ crouser has good numbers (240 hp v6)

or the 3S-GE

basicly Toyota has a good history of good motors
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lol 4agze na? lol think not. because if superchargers are NA, then Turbos would be Na..... blah blah blah.....