Free speech vs. religious ideals, current events in question. Options

[jayi12-15psi]

If you watch the news you're aware of the events taking place in the middle east reguarding violent protests against anti-Muslim danish Cartoons. Most people will tell you that violence is obviously not the answer, but the issue at hand here is... Do you think that the rights of free speech should be curbed so it does not offend a religion?

This post has been edited by jayi12-15psi: Feb 8, 2006 - 5:23 PM

[BlackSTX]

It's kinda a silly question. Of course, we as Americans are in favor of free speech. Those who live in the Middle East obviously have a different opinion. That opinion being that their religious laws are more important than political rights.

[jayi12-15psi]

I'm sure there are people here that would be offended if there was offensive pictures of Jesus published, and I'm sure most people will favor free speech. I would also think that other people would think that freedom of speech goes to far sometime. There's already laws that inhibit total free speech, maybe we should include religious offenses in these laws in order to stop violence in countries where religious laws are more important than political rights.

[jayi12-15psi]

we're also not all Americans.

[BlackCelicaGT94]

i went for religious ideals on this specific topic.


Freedom Of Speech is not a right without responsibility.

The cartoons are clearly offensive attacks on the faith of all Muslims and it is not surprising that people are upset \\


Heres a link to the cartoons - scroll about halfway down

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698
boos teezee

This post has been edited by BlackCelicaGT94: Feb 8, 2006 - 7:33 PM

[Supersprynt]

Freedom of speech is a natural right you are born with. Religion is something you aquire. Responsibility comes with BOTH however the freedom of speech lets you say "praise god" without being thrown in jail.

[nader]

boos teezee[/quote] lol not nice whered u pick that up

[saleeka]

in regards to whats going on with the cartoons and this particular question- freedom of speech trumps any attempt to have religious overtones silence it, in my opinion- In the middle east, you see in their media plenty of extreme defamatory material against you name it (jewish people and amricans come to the top of my mind)- yet the rest of the world is supposed to quelch anything that these people find offensive? i dont think so... You don't see americans buring Afgani or North korean flags in the streets over negative press they roll out... In my opinion, a lot of middle eastern "values" are just too ancient to function within our western culture. The cartoon of Allah having his eyes coverd with a black line, and of the two women fully covered except for their eyes is a perfect example of this to me. I think the cartoon makes a great point in that women certainly have no equallity when it comes to their society and how the the koran dictates that- and they see it as this huge insult to their culture because 'the book says so", even though most of the world sees differently... The outrage that has come of this, i find unwarranted... I do think, however, that the illustration of Allah's turbin resembling a bomb was in VERY bad taste, but honestly, it is most certainly not enough to justify people buring down embassies and so on and so forth...

[Celica_Fan]

There is no need for all that violence they should just grow up those cartoons were for humour and freedom of speech. Lots of people think those cartoons are quite funny.

[jgreening]

Its not even a close call: Freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is closely tied to the freedom to worship and both are jeopardized by this religious fanatism. Those people engaging in violence are criminals - plain and simple. Words, writings and cartoons cannot impede a true believer's convictions. Sure, they may be highly insulted by the things that were printed, but how can anyone believe that gives them the right to blow somebody up? The only alternative is to outlaw the speech and punish any offenders. We all know how well that works (Communist China, Hitler era Germany, etc.)

I think these guys need a beer and a lay to relax followed by a life long prison cell to reflect on their crimes while they rot away.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Its not even a close call: Freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is closely tied to the freedom to worship and both are jeopardized by this religious fanatism. Those people engaging in violence are criminals - plain and simple. Words, writings and cartoons cannot impede a true believer's convictions. Sure, they may be highly insulted by the things that were printed, but how can anyone believe that gives them the right to blow somebody up? The only alternative is to outlaw the speech and punish any offenders. We all know how well that works (Communist China, Hitler era Germany, etc.)

We also need to not shove it in peoples faces about freedom of speech. Just as we have the right to not believe a particular religoin, they have the right to believe it. And if we're talking about Muslims here, remember that the terorist are extreemist. Their are these extreemist in every religion, and shouldn't be confused with most others or the same religion.

[97lestyousay]

Freedom of speech sometimes gos to far, like on here if this topic
makes it till morning I will be amazed. I think it is a good topic, but
I read somewhere religious topics usually get deleted. Lots of people
have strong ideals which usually starts bickering then boom, delete
or lock. good luck with this one.

[jayi12-15psi]

Well, I hope it dosen't get deleted. I think things like this are important, it's very relative with alot of things going on with our civil rights such as the recent wire tapping and patriot acts. At what point should a government deny civil rights because they cause more harm than good? I can clearly understand the offenses in those cartoons, but it's a difficult task finding the perfect balance. I hope this topic stays open, I wasn't looking to start something to offend religions. Personally, I think ultra-liberals sometimes lose sight of the fact that certain rights shouldn't be abused, and to push the envelope sometimes causes things as severe as death.

[97lestyousay]

The constitution is 200 and somthing years old. They didn't have computers,
do we still need representitives? The government is inherently Fu--edup.
The people can decide anything nowadays. I voted with the major minority.

Don't dis me and I won't dis you. Kinda the life I try and lead.
I am not religious but know the difference between right and wrong.
Kinda like the do unto others. No, I think persocuting a whole religion
for the things a few have done is BS.

This post has been edited by 97lestyousay: Feb 9, 2006 - 12:16 AM

[jayi12-15psi]

I wasn't trying to persecute a whole religion and I believe that most people realize that every religion has extremists. I also believe that these extremists are being widely publicised in the muslim world as opposed to other religious extremists. As a collective religion, they're getting a bad name because it's trendy to feel hate for the Muslim world as Americans, and these acts of violence give people the little reason to justify how some Americans want to feel. I've of course seen these cartoons and they are offensive, but here are several cartoons offensive to Jews printed in Arab news papers.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/category/...uslim_cartoons/

(scroll down a bit)

I think they're talking these cartoons way to seriously and these acts of violence are unaccepable, but should the creator of these cartoons be responsible for a portion of the violence?

This post has been edited by jayi12-15psi: Feb 9, 2006 - 1:10 AM

[BlackCelicaGT94]

[quote name='nader' date='Feb 8, 2006 - 6:13 PM' post='391000']
boos teezee[/quote] lol not nice whered u pick that up
[/quote]


i know some arabic :-) ;-)

[jayi12-15psi]

what does that mean? for the rest of us who don't speak arabic.

[BlackCelicaGT94]

boos teezee = kiss my A$$

Jayi12 - ur a Gawwad

gawwad = pimp

ok im off to bed yall

Assalamu alaikum
Peace be upon you

This post has been edited by BlackCelicaGT94: Feb 9, 2006 - 1:18 AM

[97lestyousay]

I wasn't trying to persecute a whole religion and I believe that most people realize that every religion has extremists. I also believe that these extremists are being widely publicised in the muslim world as opposed to other religious extremists. As a collective religion, they're getting a bad name because it's trendy to feel hate for the Muslim world as Americans, and these acts of violence give people the little reason to justify how some Americans want to feel. I've of course seen these cartoons and they are offensive, but here are several cartoons offensive to Jews printed in Arab news papers.

think they're talking these cartoons way to seriously and these acts of violence are unaccepable, but should the creator of these cartoons be responsible for a portion of the violence?

Ur confused I'm on ur side. 4 votes.

This post has been edited by 97lestyousay: Feb 9, 2006 - 1:19 AM

[Batman722]

this forum is not for these kinds of discussions, it only leads to chaos

[jayi12-15psi]

well, now that I look at it, this conversation has many sides, I tried to stay impartial to begin with but I suck at not speaking my piece.

[97lestyousay]

this forum is not for these kinds of discussions, it only leads to chaos

Agreed!!

[jayi12-15psi]

I know it's taboo, but I think it's ok as long as we don't start making attacks on religion or political agenda.

Let's just keep it reasonable, we're all adults and we should be able to have inteligent conversation on such matters. If not, lock it, no big deal.

[presure2]

as long as you guys can DEBATE the topic, without it turning into a pissing war, it'll stay open

[Supersprynt]

Well, I hope it dosen't get deleted. I think things like this are important, it's very relative with alot of things going on with our civil rights such as the recent wire tapping and patriot acts. At what point should a government deny civil rights because they cause more harm than good? I can clearly understand the offenses in those cartoons, but it's a difficult task finding the perfect balance. I hope this topic stays open, I wasn't looking to start something to offend religions. Personally, I think ultra-liberals sometimes lose sight of the fact that certain rights shouldn't be abused, and to push the envelope sometimes causes things as severe as death.

I think you kinda have it backwards. The liberals are the ones fighting for your liberties more than anybody else.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I think you kinda have it backwards. The liberals are the ones fighting for your liberties more than anybody else.

lol, that's what they want you to think. I'm very anti-American at this point in my life. Any remember "Animal Farm?" Whose to say the only time something like that would happen is when it's a Communist system? It just takes longer for Napolian and Snowball to take power. Communism is the greatest thing in the world in theory. But like all systems of government, it has it's flaws. Like the wicked coming to power and controlling. You have to give America credit for making it as long as it has.

This post has been edited by Bigmeanbulldog55: Feb 9, 2006 - 9:49 AM

[Supersprynt]

Communism fails because its very anti-human.

[jayi12-15psi]

I think you kinda have it backwards. The liberals are the ones fighting for your liberties more than anybody else.

No, I fully understand that the liberals fight for our liberties, but what I'm asking is, at what point do we have more liberties than our society can handle? Freedom of speech is great unless you're walking up to random people on the street and telling them "your baby was just run over by a dump truck."(if it's a lie) Freedom of speech is great until a simple cartoon is enough to cause death.

This post has been edited by jayi12-15psi: Feb 9, 2006 - 12:13 PM

[Supersprynt]

There are people who take it a little to literally. During WWI & II you really couldnt speak out against the government and protest to stop drafting and joining the army. And I agree that its pretty horrible that there are people who would say stuff like that. But there also comes a point in time where anything anybody says its going to offend someone, and the fact of the matter is that people gotta get over it. If you sit and get offended by such things as a cartoon, then you really need to open a window and chill out. Its a fuggin cartoon - its the whole society over there that takes religion way to seriously and to the extreme. IMO religion is a FAR worse culprit of causing deaths than free speech.

[jayi12-15psi]

I agree with you about religion being a worse culprit than freedom of speech when it comes to death. Is it worth doing something as extreme as possibly going to war with the muslim community because they can't take a joke?

If we draw Muhammed, they attack, we retaliate it becomes war.

Granted they shouldn't resort to violence everytime they're offended, but we have so few ways to deal with the situation if they start using violence. We know muslim extremist react with violence, should we simply try to not offend in the first place? I understand offending someone is inevitable this day in age, but maybe conflict could be avoided by being a little more PC(even though I hate being PC)?

[ILuvMyCelica95]

I think you kinda have it backwards. The liberals are the ones fighting for your liberties more than anybody else.

No, I fully understand that the liberals fight for our liberties, but what I'm asking is, at what point do we have more liberties than our society can handle? Freedom of speech is great unless you're walking up to random people on the street and telling them "your baby was just run over by a dump truck."(if it's a lie) Freedom of speech is great until a simple cartoon is enough to cause death.

I think people are misunderstanding what exactly “freedom of speech” is. Freedom of speech does not mean you can go around misrepresenting the truth. A democratic form of government cannot survive unless people can freely voice their political opinions and criticize government actions or polices.
Of course there are restrictions on you’re freedom of speech, for example the burning of a U.S. Flag is not protected by the first amendment, even though it has been argued that doing so is a freedom of expression. The government has to be able to place restraints on people’s freedom of speech but only when they are necessary to protect other substantial interest and rights. This is why we have courts to determine the point at which laws restricting free speech can be justified by the need to protect other rights.
Consequentially if someone were to run around saying untrue things like "your baby was just run over by a dump truck." And this statement caused some type of harm to the other party For example ( and yeah I’m exaggerating a bit on the consequences here.) The mother of the baby then commits suicide. The father/husband of the victims here could sue the person who misrepresented the truth, if this person had knowledge that the statement was in fact untrue, and used it with malicious intent, this could probably fall under the tort of intentional infliction of emotion distress, if you stretch if far enough, blah blah blah.

Yes I went of on a tangent here but I think it’s important that people understand what freedom of speech means.

Cliff notes: not all things are protected under freedom of speech.

[jayi12-15psi]

right, I realize that but is it possible that the danish people should be restricted from publishing cartoons that bash a culture? It is a liberal nation, but that doesn't mean they can be **** distubers.

Sorry, I was not clear on the fact that saying things such as "your baby was run over by a dump truck" is illegal. I was trying to make the point that if something like that is illegal, maybe it should be illegal to make culturally bashing cartoons that cause violence?

This post has been edited by jayi12-15psi: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:00 PM

[ILuvMyCelica95]

I know what you're saying Jay. The problem is that ( well at least in America) Freedom of speech for the media and corporations is different then freedom of speach for the everyday man.

In this case because these cartoon are clearly offensive material they probably should not be protected under the right of freedom of speechin the opinion of the people it is offending, on the other hand, This is something in the media, people also have the right to pay no attention to it, no one is forcing people to view these cartoons.

For example: Even in the US numerous state and federal statues make it a crime to disseminate obsecene materials, however, the Supreme Court has often uphelf such laws, including laws prohibiting the sale and posession of child ponography. I find that offensive, as do most people, and IMO it should not be leagal,but that is only my opinion and i chose not to buy said obscene materials which is also my choice.

Determining what is protected under freedom of speech and what isn't is treading on thin ice.

controversial issue this is.

This post has been edited by ILuvMyCelica95: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:01 PM

[jayi12-15psi]

I'm not sure what publication these cartoons are printed in, but lets say you opened up a copy of the daily paper and something in their cartoons offended you? You most likely would not resort to violence, but you'd be upset non the less.

I know it's a controversial issue, that's why I'm asking it. What do you guys think should be protected under free speech and what should not be protected? Should the United States interfere in this instance?

[ILuvMyCelica95]

I don't think the US should interfere at all.

[LuDaChRiS]

good taste and respect should rule over all

[jayi12-15psi]

Do you find the fact that they are burning our flag offensive? I'm not an evil right-wing anti liberal, but I do find that very offensive as I'm not some peace loving, no-war-at-any-cost hippie. Perhaps I find it as offensive as they find the cartoons, but I'm not about to shed blood.
I do however think these extremists can't just **** all over America's name.

I'm having my cake and eating it too.

I think the world is getting sick of the conflicts in the middle-east, but they're also getting tired of our antics.

[ILuvMyCelica95]

good taste and respect should rule over all

Good taste and respect according to who?

Like i think my car is done in good taste according to me, but you might think it's hideous. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. These people just happened to show it through a cartoon.

This post has been edited by ILuvMyCelica95: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:27 PM

[BlackCelicaGT94]

They are just using it as a reason to start more violoence. I dont think its so much the cartoon as it is EVERYTHING thats going on over there.

[jayi12-15psi]

good taste and respect should rule over all

When I find a way to make this a universally applied ideal, I will rule supreme.

[ILuvMyCelica95]

Do you find the fact that they are burning our flag offensive? I'm not an evil right-wing anti liberal, but I do find that very offensive as I'm not some peace loving, no-war-at-any-cost hippie. Perhaps I find it as offensive as they find the cartoons, but I'm not about to shed blood.
I do however think these extremists can't just **** all over America's name.

I'm having my cake and eating it too.

I think the world is getting sick of the conflicts in the middle-east, but they're also getting tired of our antics.

Sure i find it offensive, it's meant to be offensive. People offend people and that is life. I'm not about to go out and kill someone because they hate America. They are free to hate whoever they choose. I don't think America needs to "flex their muscles” on this issue.

[LuDaChRiS]

good taste and respect should rule over all

Good taste and respect according to who?

Like i think my car is done in good taste according to me, but you might think it's hideous. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. These people just happened to show it through a cartoon.

true. but at the same time, generally speaking, a car does not invoke as much emotion as one's religion.

i see this on the news, and i always think, they could not have thought this was a good idea. "Hey, lets make cartoons about religions! Yeah, that would be hilarious!"

edit: thought about it, didnt want to open up another can of worms.

This post has been edited by LuDaChRiS: Feb 9, 2006 - 2:40 PM

[Supersprynt]

First of all. How many of you have actually SEEN the cartoons they're talking about?

Heres a link because I dont know if due to its controversy it should be posted: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Now most of them, arent even funny. Theres one (virgins one) thats funny. The thing is this is how people cope with some stuff, they make jokes. Ever heard of the saying you either laugh or you cry? The reason that alot of ppl resort to violence is because many are uneducated and dont know anything else. The world is never going to be a 100% peaceful place, everything offends somebody at some point. Is this worth going to war over? Absolutely not. But if people who find this offensive are getting violent over it, then they gotta be put down. Being offended is one thing, you can get over it, being dead is another, killing people is another, you cant get over that.

Free speech is a natural right. You as a living being have the right to worship w/e u do, say how you feel about something, but if it what your saying endangers lives, and you still say it, then you need to be shut up. These cartoons we never meant to endanger peoples lives, they're simply offensive. The offended decided to take it over the line and get violent.

[jayi12-15psi]

The cartoons are listed on the first page, and I saw the cartoons before I made this post. I even posted some more extreme anti-Jew cartoons to show that the violence is rediculous, nobody should die over this, I think we can all agree to that. However there are alot of things that people shouldn't die over, but they do. They didn't mean to, but the creators of these cartoons did unintentionally, indirectly cause this outcry. I'm not saying that they are 100% to blame, but I think we need to consider the fact that the simple free speech can be used as a weapon in areas of the world where people have different values than we do in America.

Sure, in most of the world it wouldn't be a deadly offense to insult one's religion, but it's obviously a deadly offense in some places.

I would like to state again, I don't think these cartoons justify violence or death.


Super, you say that the people being violent over these offenses need to be "put down." Who will put these violent protesters "down."

[BlackCelicaGT94]

First of all. How many of you have actually SEEN the cartoons they're talking about?

Heres a link because I dont know if due to its controversy it should be posted: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Now most of them, arent even funny. Theres one (virgins one) thats funny.

i posted a link to teh cartoons previosly

also thats interesting you think the virgin one is funny! I find that personally as a woman to be the worst one.

[jayi12-15psi]

That one's pretty bad, I think the one where he has a bomb for a head is pretty terrible.

I would have thought this debate would have been alot more lopsided, I'msurprised it's only 7-18

This post has been edited by jayi12-15psi: Feb 9, 2006 - 4:00 PM

[Supersprynt]

The country in which violent protests are occurring are reponsible for settling this.

I'm all for staying out of this.

[jayi12-15psi]

well, these riots are not starting to spread into western africa, this could actually become a global crisis affecting many countries. Many of these are third world countries, with weak governments incapable of putting down mass riots. I personally don't think we should intervene, but if we wait until the riots hit the US shores it might be too late to escape major violence. Tension with the Muslim world has been spreading forever, I suppose the UN will mediate conflicts as they get out of hand?

[BlackCelicaGT94]

i love the muslim culture. its fascinating to me! i actually own the Quran. dont own a bible though! lol! :-)

This post has been edited by BlackCelicaGT94: Feb 9, 2006 - 4:43 PM

[Jeremy1210]

You guys gotta remember that over there all they have is Hate. Its what they know. It is what comforts them. They fight all the time.

Also, remember that the middle east countries fought with Europe all the time, heck almost even took over europe at one point. The fighting bewtween Them and us have only recently stopped(last 200-300 years. Once they stopped fightin Europe they fought themselves. Also it didn't help when the british owned that area as territories then just left leaving no government to run things.

Do I think they are going overboard, yes, but we aren't borught up in a world that consists of Hate and war. Its all they know...

[BlackCelicaGT94]

You guys gotta remember that over there all they have is Hate. Its what they know. It is what comforts them. They fight all the time.

Also, remember that the middle east countries fought with Europe all the time, heck almost even took over europe at one point. The fighting bewtween Them and us have only recently stopped(last 200-300 years. Once they stopped fightin Europe they fought themselves. Also it didn't help when the british owned that area as territories then just left leaving no government to run things.

Do I think they are going overboard, yes, but we aren't borught up in a world that consists of Hate and war. Its all they know...

I dont think i fully agree with this statement. You cant generalize and say THEY like its all of them over there know hate! Thats not true. I think you should find a different way to state that.,

This post has been edited by BlackCelicaGT94: Feb 9, 2006 - 5:13 PM

[Jeremy1210]

I didn't mean every single person. But in General its what they know. I mean since I've been alive (im 27) I haven't ever heard of peace over there. Im not saying that everyone resorts to violence, but hate and violence is what they have a lot of and its what they are born into and what they grow up with. A child growing up isn't taught to talk when they get in an arguement like what we are over here. Society is different here, that when 2 sides disagree we try to talk it over first. There they kinda skip that step and resort to violence. I mean it is a totally different mindset of hate. To kill yourself b/c you are so pissed at someone else for having different ideals than you is just not anything that we think about over here.

By no means am I saying that every single person is like that, but I think a good 20% are.

This post has been edited by Jeremy1210: Feb 10, 2006 - 9:55 AM

[Drocay]

okay by saying " I haven't heard of peace over there" were exactly do you mean. You've never heard of peace in a muslim country or in the middle east or were exactly. Do you know why the palestinians are angry at the jews. Do you know why they don't like the US policys. 20% of Who are in that state of Hate as you put it, Muslims?