Swap Guys, Track Times, Here We Go....lol Options

[Fastbird]

This interest is sparked by the fact that a good buddy of mine recently ran a 13.6@105 in his 05 GTO and is racing to get a set of headers and exhaust system for his car before our swap is complete because, in his words, "I will not have my car beat by that little Celica."

Which got me to thinking. Stock SRT-4 Neon's put out about 230 to the wheels. Turn (normally) mid 14's to upper mid 13's depending on the driver. From what Dr. Tweak is saying, our Celica should be in the 250-260 WHP range when we pick it up. I consider myself a good driver by any and all means, and given that the Celi only weighs about 2600-2700 lbs, should be able to turn a decent time.

What kind of times (if any) have you swap guys turned at the track??

Another thought I had is throwing some drag radials on the stock 15x7 wheels, but then it occured to me that it would probably be a littel better to plop a wider wheel (still a 15 or 16, just with an 8" width) on there for a better contact patch. Granted, I'm running a stock GT 5 speed and stock half-shafts up front, but what will they take in terms of abuse???

Just wondering. I know I said the car isn't going to see the track, but hey, I've got racing in my blood.

[jgreening]

our Celica should be in the 250-260 WHP range when we pick it up.

Are you going to get an upgraded turbo? If not, you will have difficulty hitting those numbers. I hit 214whp on my ct26 at 14psi.

[celicaST]

^250-260whp? not with the stock turbo. are you using a 2nd or 3rd gen 3s?

as for times. from defgeph's sig, he ran a 13.9@101@12psi.

[Fastbird]

I'm just quoting what Dr. Tweak told me. Gotta remember too that I'm having a Perfect Power SMT-6 added on by him and a full dyno tune in addition to a couple other little tweaks. He seems confident that we'll be in that range. We make what we'll make either way, and go from there. It's a JDM 2nd Gen motor and ECU by the way.

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Mar 23, 2006 - 9:48 AM

[bigal004321]

i am saying that you will hit a 14.4,,,mainly becauseof traction issues off the line. and the stock 3sgte only runs a 15.6, and shaving over a second off is hard especially on the stock turbo. But good luck.

LMK what you get!

Bigal

[Defgeph]

You'll never see those numbers with a smt-6 running on a 2nd gen. If you were going to install a ct27 or ct20b during the swap, I could then believe that. Look more towards 200-220 whp with a stock CT26.


As for myself I ran a 13.9 @ 12psi on street tires. Keep in mind that I have a full 3 inch exhaust, lightwieght flywheel, and a W/A intercooler. Not to mention alot of suspension upgrades.

I only ran 9 runs last year, this year I'm shooting for much lower numbers. I would say a stock 3s swap would be in the mid to low 14's at best.

[Dr_Tweak]

You guys are such a bunch of haters

According to the MR2 Power Primer, which I feel is pretty accurate, a 2nd gen 3SGTE should be making about 245 whp with these mods:

15 psi (with FCD)
Colder range spark plugs
Intake including larger throttle body inlet (this one isn't listed in)
Downpipe and Full 3" mandrel-bent exhaust
Front-mount intercooler
Dyno tuning with wideband (obviously) and SMT6 (fuel and ignition control) (This is one that makes a big difference that most people don't do.)

Add the fact that the GT tranny typically has a little less drivetrain loss than the E153 (MR2 tranny), I think we will be, as I said:

"Close to 250 whp" and as Fastbird said, "In that range".

And before some of you hop on here and start flaming that the CT26 only puts out hot air above 12 psi, I know and have advised Fastbird that the CT26 is not the ideal turbo and we WILL be upgrading that, but not at this present time.

-Doc

[Fastbird]

Just so you guys know, Doc and I were having a miscommunication about the power ratings. I thought he was talking WHP when he was actually talking FWHP. Simple error really, but enough to obviously cause controversy.

After conversing though, if the primer holds true, I have full faith in what Dr. Tweak says. I realize that the CT26 is not the best option, but at the current point I just want to get the car up and running. We're obviously already planning for a larger turbo down the road (GT28RS anyone??) as we want to push it up over 300 to the wheels, but that's some time off right now. Frankly, it makes what it makes, but we're going to try to wrangle every bit we can out of it with what we've got. If Doc says we can make 245, I believe we can make 245. And I'd be tickled pink to see a number like that.

Defgeph, for your 13.9 run, were you tuned for that or just the stuff you had listed?? What was your short time like???

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Mar 23, 2006 - 1:08 PM

[Kadett]

We have a guy here with a JDM GT-4 boosting at 1,2 bar (stock is 0,8) with about 340 HP at the crank. Hitting the 1/4 mile in 12,5 sec. With stock turbo and internals.

[bigal004321]

I am not trying to hate though i am trying to be realistic. On street tires i highly doubt in the 13's, it is very possible that you will be close to 250, after tuning. I will be doing the same upgrades basically, so let me know what you end up getting.

Bigal

[scothaniel]

We have a guy here with a JDM GT-4 boosting at 1,2 bar (stock is 0,8) with about 340 HP at the crank. Hitting the 1/4 mile in 12,5 sec.

Thats the beauty of AWD - traction galore. I'm hoping for mid-13's with my FWD celi, and thats with LSD and a TD06.

[lagos]

yeah you can make 250hp... at the crank ! its important to remember that.

there is no way youll get that to the wheels on a ct26, but if upgrade to a ct27 or a ct20b and it shouldnt be a problem.


i think with basic mods, high 13s or low 14s is what you should expect. the car is very fast from a roll, but dosnt do that well at a track because of the fwd.

You guys are such a bunch of haters

According to the MR2 Power Primer, which I feel is pretty accurate, a 2nd gen 3SGTE should be making about 245 whp with these mods:

15 psi (with FCD)
Colder range spark plugs
Intake including larger throttle body inlet (this one isn't listed in)
Downpipe and Full 3" mandrel-bent exhaust
Front-mount intercooler
Dyno tuning with wideband (obviously) and SMT6 (fuel and ignition control) (This is one that makes a big difference that most people don't do.)

Add the fact that the GT tranny typically has a little less drivetrain loss than the E153 (MR2 tranny), I think we will be, as I said:

"Close to 250 whp" and as Fastbird said, "In that range".

And before some of you hop on here and start flaming that the CT26 only puts out hot air above 12 psi, I know and have advised Fastbird that the CT26 is not the ideal turbo and we WILL be upgrading that, but not at this present time.

-Doc

[Fastbird]

We'll see what happens everyone. I don't want to see this thread turn into a consant bantering back and forth over "yes it will" or "no it won't" make 250 WHP. I have every intention of completely documenting every little last thing that goes into and comes out of the car. Dyno sheets will be posted of coure.

[jgreening]

I thought he was talking WHP when he was actually talking FWHP.

Um, those are the same thing.

[Fastbird]

I thought he was talking WHP when he was actually talking FWHP.

Um, those are the same thing.

No they're not. WHP = Wheel Horse Power and FWHP = FlyWheel Horse Power.

[lagos]

I thought he was talking WHP when he was actually talking FWHP.

Um, those are the same thing.

No they're not. WHP = Wheel Horse Power and FWHP = FlyWheel Horse Power.

i think what he ment is that saying FWHP makes it sound like you mean, Front Wheel Horse Power. most people say Wheel Horse Power, or power at the crank

[afroman]

*edit * Why cant i read and type faster damn you art
i think he means FWHP= front wheel horse power
-Aaron-

This post has been edited by afroman: Mar 23, 2006 - 3:55 PM

[pure_dx]

yeah, most people will just say HP, with no W in front if they're not talking about Wheel Horsepower, you confused me too when you said FWHP, i thought you meant Front Wheel HorsePower, tomatoe tomata, o well

This post has been edited by pure_dx: Mar 23, 2006 - 7:53 PM

[Fastbird]

Sorry about all the confusion. I am mainly a rear wheel drive GM Performance guy, and am 100% used to speaking in terms of FWHP and RWHP. When we talk front wheel drive, we speak of FWHP and WHP for them.

[recneps]

Mmina_XXX was the only member i knew of to take a swap celica to the track i think with 260+whp and no where near stock he pulled upper 13's maybe someone could verify this.

[Akimbo]

Ugh. Pwned by FWD again

[brianforster]

track times arent everything

i think if you want fast in a straight line, everyone knows its all about american muscle

id rather have a clean looking (swapped) celi with power options, cd player, and a comfortable interior and run 14's, than run 12's in a stripped down gutted old muscle car

This post has been edited by brianforster: Mar 23, 2006 - 11:16 PM

[Digndoug]

track times arent everything

i think if you want fast in a straight line, everyone knows its all about american muscle

id rather have a clean looking (swapped) celi with power options, cd player, and a comfortable interior and run 14's, than run 12's in a stripped down gutted old muscle car

Its not the fact that its gutted or stripped, 'Its that it has more power, and rwd. RWD cars will allways be better on the track, a true sports car. A swapped celi is a very close alternative, and should keep insurance down too.

[nate95]

theres no way a stock 3sgte is only running a 15.7 in the 1/4 mile. my ST is running a 16sec. 1/4 the 3sgte has to be more than .3 seconds faster than my ST.

[Defgeph]

Fastbird, The only things I had where 10lbs FW, turbo back 3inch exhaust, and my W/A intercooler. The suspension was stiffened up quite a bit. Which helps a ton.

My advice, forget all these after market parts. Buy just one a ct27. It will put you right where you want to be. And it will probably save you a little money while your at it. Also in the long run you'll have less things to trouble shoot later on.

And one question. Why not do the swap yourself ? You seem very knowlagable with mechanics. Doing the swap yourself will teach you everything about your car.

GL

[scothaniel]

i think if you want fast in a straight line, everyone knows its all about american muscle

FWD cars can be very fast in a straight line - only its on the highway starting around 50 MPH! I've got FWD DSM buddies that suprise unsuspecting vette owners. Just as long as it doesn't require them stopping, then its nothing but screeching tires and cursing..

Still loving the AWD!

This post has been edited by scothaniel: Apr 2, 2006 - 3:07 PM

[bigal004321]

there is no way a stock celica st run a 16 flat...my GT cant even run that stock.

stock 1996 GT 16.4
1993 celica turbo 15.6

[Fastbird]

Fastbird, The only things I had where 10lbs FW, turbo back 3inch exhaust, and my W/A intercooler. The suspension was stiffened up quite a bit. Which helps a ton.

My advice, forget all these after market parts. Buy just one a ct27. It will put you right where you want to be. And it will probably save you a little money while your at it. Also in the long run you'll have less things to trouble shoot later on.

And one question. Why not do the swap yourself ? You seem very knowlagable with mechanics. Doing the swap yourself will teach you everything about your car.

GL

The CT27 is what I've been looking at, but that's going to be a down the road thing. ATS has definitely put together a nice package with that turbo.

I'm not doing the swap myself mainly because of how unfamiliar I am with turbo cars but more importantly, my amazing lack of electrical ability. I just don't trust myself doing a wiring harness, and yeah, I know I could have just sourced that out, but what you guys don't know is that I've got the midas touch, only I make things go poopie. I just have rotten luck at times, not to mention that with the motor build for my Trans Am I just don't have time for another project for myself to work on. Once the car is in my hands...that's another story. I'll have something to tinker with bit by bit and not something so daunting staring at me.

It's not that I'm so concerned with straight line traction I've got two 93 Trans Am's for that fix (heck, I've got a build in progress on my 93 Trans Am right now that we're shooting for single digits and 140+ trap speeds with on a full interior and air conditioning car), but I think it would be cool to say that "Hey, I took this stock unassuming Celica, had some work done, and lookie now as I blast through a low 13 run.

[presure2]

i think with GOOD tires, and a proper launch, mid to low 13's are possible with the FWD setup. just a matter of getting a really good launch.
jeff ran a 13.9 last year on street tires, with basicly no practice.
im sure he'll knock at least a few .10ths off the time this year with a little practice.
next thing you'll be hearing is the 5sfte in the 13s!

[Fastbird]

Well, my aim for the traction issues is going to be to get a 9-10" wide tire on the stock 15x7 wheels. Figure I'm running a 26x10.5x15 on a set of 15x8's for my Trans Am, same concept would apply to the 15x7 wheels for the celica. Obviously this would be a track only configuration (and to-from track obviously) but I figure with a sticky tire up front a relatively aggressive launch shouldn't be too difficult to attain. Hardest part I see is going to be overcoming the lack of power prior to the spool up. Two stage anyone??

I will say that I consider myself to be a pretty good driver. I normally pedal street tires in the F-Body cars to low 1.9 60' times with a Six speed. If anyone has ever driven one of those you know how easy it is to break traction too. Figure with some practice with the new motor in the Celi I should have no problems getting something decent.

I will admit that I'm probably going to be doing this on borrowed time on the stock half-shafts and tranny though.



This post has been edited by Fastbird: Mar 24, 2006 - 7:59 AM

[Rjb23]

there is no way a stock celica st run a 16 flat...my GT cant even run that stock.

stock 1996 GT 16.4
1993 celica turbo 15.6

The USDM 93 alltrac has about 20 hp less then the 2nd gen JDM 3s, also it is about 300 to 500 lbs heavier than a swaped 6gen. A stock 2nd gen JDM 3s in a 6gen will run low 14's stock.

A stock st will not run 16's try 17 or 18's.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

My very-tired, old, dirty whore of a 5SFE only ran a low 17 second run my first time ever on a track.

Most guys that track a swapped FWD Celica run in the low 14's with a fairly stock motor. Like everybody else said its all about utilizing the traction available and making it take off as quickly as possible.

[Fastbird]

You guys also have to remember that my car is going to be running a full 3" downpipe and exhaust, approx 15 PSI boost, ATS TB Inlet, FMIC, and a dynotune with SMT-6 piggyback. It should be pretty dang stout.

[Defgeph]

I'll give you some of my experience.

My car @ 12psi on the strip
street tires

If I dont feather the clutch on the launch. I wont have any traction till I shift into third. With feathering the clutch, I can launch very well with minimal tire spin.

@15psi
street tires

I could baby that clutch all I want, those tires are going to break loose. In 1st gear and in 2nd. I have absolutely no lag at all so this helps add to my problem of traction.

So far I seem to have better luck with 12 psi on the track. This year I'm going to try 12 & 15 psi on street tires. I have a feeling that 15 psi runs will be saved for the slicks.

Street tires just can hang on to the launch @ 15psi at all.

[Fastbird]

Exactly why I'm looking into a drag radial or DOT slick for the front stock 15x7 wheels. If I can get a 9 or 10 inch wide tire on the rim that should be a healthy enough contact patch.

[Rjb23]

Stock tires are 15 x 6 at best not 15 x 7

[Defgeph]

Exactly why I'm looking into a drag radial or DOT slick for the front stock 15x7 wheels. If I can get a 9 or 10 inch wide tire on the rim that should be a healthy enough contact patch.

I have hooser drag radials. I believe the size is 225, they give me about 9 inches of contact I'm gonna give those things a full workout. I'll have to double check on the size.
Do you live in Jersey? If so you should come out the the strip when we go.

Stock tires are 15 x 6 at best not 15 x 7

The stock celica rim is 15x7 which is what he means. Steelies are a differnet size.

[DG_Performance]

My celica ran a 14.1 on 14-15 psi. @ 100mph
stock suspension, full interior, system, a passanger, and 18" wheels.
stock ct26, full 3" exhaust, fmic, ats inlet, boost controller

My MR2 runs a 13.6 on same boost and basically same mods. @ 103.?
ran that number with a completely full fronk and full trunk cause i was on the way home from Def's house to PA when we hit up the track

the mr2 being RWD with LSD... is what helped!
DG

This post has been edited by DG_Performance: Mar 24, 2006 - 11:59 AM

[Fastbird]

Exactly why I'm looking into a drag radial or DOT slick for the front stock 15x7 wheels. If I can get a 9 or 10 inch wide tire on the rim that should be a healthy enough contact patch.

I have hooser drag radials. I believe the size is 225, they give me about 9 inches of contact I'm gonna give those things a full workout. I'll have to double check on the size.
Do you live in Jersey? If so you should come out the the strip when we go.

Stock tires are 15 x 6 at best not 15 x 7

The stock celica rim is 15x7 which is what he means. Steelies are a differnet size.

Yeah, I purposely bought my house 15 minutes from Atco Raceway. I presume you go to Island or Englishtown given that your profile says North Jersey??? I don't get up there too often but will make an exception if you want to do a mini-meet one day!

[Kadett]

In order to get as much traction as possible I will get the next parts. Tho not all parts are directly for traction alone.

TRD/Kaaz LSD
Tires, first Toyo T1R when they are worn i get Goodyear Eagle F1 GD-S3 (Best tyre out there) width is 225
Tein SS
Replacing Swaybars
Cusco Front Strutbar

When all of the above is not sufficient enough to get enough grip (also in corners) I will go for a standalone TCS like Racelogig. Or getting a AEM with RLTC

The only worries i have for the TCS is that i will get a lot of wheel hoppin.

[jgreening]

When all of the above is not sufficient enough to get enough grip (also in corners) I will go for a standalone TCS like Racelogig. Or getting a AEM with RLTC

Those Racelogic systems are very nice. Unfortunately they cost $1000 and require some wiring experience to install. The AEM traction control is not as nice and requires a lot of tuning. If money isn't an issue, go for the Racelogic.

[Kadett]

1000 Dollars. If so it would already be on the car :D

The system itself is about 600 pound (1000 euros = 1200 dollars)
But if you dont have ABS (Which i dont have ) you need wheel sensors that will cost about 250 pounds ( 400 euros = 480 dollars)

And those have to be placed real precise and solid otherwise it wont work. So i will need a company to do that for me = 400 euros
But as the saying goes:
TCS 1000$
Sensors 400$
Getting them equiped 400$
New tires 350$

Whooping every 4wd ass on the track with a FWD = Priceless

So i have to think about that. But if place you can score very good 1/4mile times especially with the Launch Control function.

This post has been edited by Kadett: Mar 24, 2006 - 1:01 PM

[Defgeph]

Yeah, I purposely bought my house 15 minutes from Atco Raceway. I presume you go to Island or Englishtown given that your profile says North Jersey??? I don't get up there too often but will make an exception if you want to do a mini-meet one day!

I plan on taking a few runs down Englishtown this year. You are correct, I mainly stick to Island its 15 mins from where I live. I get more runs there, but Englishtown is a much nicer facility. I'll PM you when we start to run.

[nate95]

My ST isn't stock.. and WILL run a 16sec. 1/4@86mph with some wieght reduction- back seats out, and spare out.

[Rjb23]

My ST isn't stock.. and WILL run a 16sec. 1/4@86mph with some wieght reduction- back seats out, and spare out.

Unless your turbo'd or have a ton of work done it isn't happening.

[nate95]

well its happenin

[yungazzdriver]

yeah i believe this guy because i ran high 16's and just did the tire pressure and weight.............other than that it was stock back then

[dans_st]

I ran a 16.7 on my ST with a CAI,MSD SCI+,2.5" exhaust, with 2-15's in the hatch and no spare.
and that was at a good track with good elevation

[Rjb23]

Produce some time slips and we will believe you.

[bigal004321]

A Stock ST celica runs mid 17's at best stock. and the stock GT run mid 16's....with only weight reduction that doesnt help that much...100lbs. = .1sec...Furthermore, i have a full exhaust, CAI, and my best time was 15.8 with an good launch and also driving an GT, not an ST...so without being heavily modded (exhaust, Intake, suspension, clutch, etc.) the ST will not run a 16 flat.

Bigal

This post has been edited by bigal004321: Mar 25, 2006 - 12:37 PM

[Defgeph]

Guys this thread is about swapped Celica track times.

If you guys want to discuss ST track times, start a thread with slips or videos.

Lets try to stay on topic.

DEF

[zipstrips]

i was at the strip last weekend, 2nd gen sway, 3"DP back, with cat and muffler, light weight flywheel and spec clutch, bald yoko's and i ran a 14.6 sec pass. @ 100.7mph and i have my boost at 5-6psi....

[x_itchy_b_x]

i was at the strip last weekend, 2nd gen sway, 3"DP back, with cat and muffler, light weight flywheel and spec clutch, bald yoko's and i ran a 14.6 sec pass. @ 100.7mph and i have my boost at 5-6psi....

why 5-6psi? just wondering. thats below stock.

[yungazzdriver]

hahahahaha well for all of yall that said a stock st cant make 16 seconds got something for ya!!! well i got a 16.68 with a passenger and withought the passenger of the seat i got 16.48,.....................yes i repeat 16.48 on a STOCK celica st (low tire pressure/weight reduction)

16 second pass ae86 (trd headers,intake ,rsr exhaust) vs stock celica st

[nate95]

HAHA finaly some can prove it can be true!!! EAT THAT YOU ST HATERS,,LOL.. thanks yungazzdriver!!

[brianforster]

a 16.68 and a 16 flat are way different.

but that is an impressive time yungazz, congrats

This post has been edited by brianforster: Apr 1, 2006 - 6:26 AM

[Rjb23]

LOL you can't even read it, looked more like 18.61 to me.

[Kwanza26]

HAHA finaly some can prove it can be true!!! EAT THAT YOU ST HATERS,,LOL.. thanks yungazzdriver!!

Heheh... fact of the matter is... YOU can't prove a thing. You don't even sound like you have a remote clue about what you're talking about... so talk doesn't mean jack.

That said... it's not whether or not a Celica ST can or cannot run 16s... the fireworks you get is because YOU definately do NOT sound like someone who can run 16 flat in a Celica ST. I on the other hand... CAN



As for the video... the trap speed speaks as loud as the 16.4 claim. 16.4 CAN be achieved with a VERY low 60 footer... at what looks to be an 81mph trap speed... however it'll be hard. I ran 2.0-2.2 60 footers, which is good for a FWD car, on slicks mind you... so I personally think that video is overrated. Also... from the looks of it... I'd venture a closer guess of 16.6-16.8 or so... cause that blur doesn't look much like a .4... but that's just me. How about a timeslip instead?

[nate95]

you guys aren't happy with anything.. i have more performance done to my car than you and you dont think i can run in the 16s?

[yungazzdriver]

LOL you can't even read it, looked more like 18.61 to me.

hey man i dont want to be mean but can you read????? i mean really its not that blurry!!! its either that or,..........u wont admit a 16 year old with a stock celica st can run 16's wether its 16.9 or 16.0. i did run a 16.48 and it was another race against some crapped up monte carlo that ran 17's. and i really had no reason to put up this video to prove you guys with gt's i dont know why i cared so much as to put that video up cuz i dont give a crap what you think (your opinion ) i dont fight over one opinion, but when it comes to facts ill let yall know st's stock can run 16's!!

[Kwanza26]

you guys aren't happy with anything.. i have more performance done to my car than you and you dont think i can run in the 16s?

LOL... an ebay chip and spark plugs...

Just so you know... I went back to stock... that means I was NOT stock at one point or another... and I had more meaningful mods than spark plugs and a fuel "chip"... not to mention I HAVE a timeslips... now... back on topic and just shut up about your little ST's.

[Kodak]

Congrats I on running 16's!!! Whether its 16 flat or otherwise. I'm an ST owner but I'm really getting tired of reading about an ST owner trying to prove to a GT owner what there Celica can do. I think half of the GT dudes don't even care. I also know that the mods are tired of locking threads because of this bickering. DAMN Toyota.... why did you have to make that badge?

[presure2]

again, this is thread about SWAPED car times. NOT ST.
once more and its locked.
and kwanza, stop acting like your the god of thunder.