Def's Dyno Runs, A learning experience Options

[Defgeph]

Hey guys,

I went to the dyno this weekend to find out what numbers I'm putting down. I came out very impressed. I was thinking along the lines of 230 hp to the wheels.

New Dyno Video 10MB

At 17.5 PSI, I put down 246HP and 261 TQ. Just insane.

Look at one of my run files below. I am still having trouble tuning my boost controller. You'll notice that after 4,000 rpm I have very strange spikes in boost. The theroy we have is, the controller is opening and then closing my waste gate door over and over after 4K. In the next few weeks I'll be tweeking the profec to run a constant number, then go back to the dyno. I believe I can squeeze out a couple more horses once this thing is set properly.




If you have any suggestions, I'm more than happy to hear them.

I'd like to again thank Manny, Jenn, and Dustin. With out them I would'nt be sharing this information with you. Again guys thank you, anything you need I'm there.

6GC. Without this place, I wouldnt have what I have. A thank you goes out to you as well.


Thanks ,
DEF

[x_itchy_b_x]

Nice air fuel curve! congrats man

[Doge]

Awesome Deph! That has to make you feel good.

[Chanh55]

You're so calm... haha

Nice vid.

[Defgeph]

LOL Thanks guys. I'm very happy with the results. I should have made the whole post using capital letters

[lagos]

nice numbers and VERY nice air/fuel curve. i wonder how much your new fuel rail has to do with that?

ps. you need an mbc..lol

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 25, 2006 - 1:13 AM

[Defgeph]

nice numbers and VERY nice air/fuel curve. i wonder how much your new fuel rail has to do with that?

ps. you need an mbc..lol

I really wish now that I did a before and after with the rail. The MBC sounds tempting

[lagos]

nice numbers and VERY nice air/fuel curve. i wonder how much your new fuel rail has to do with that?

ps. you need an mbc..lol

I really wish now that I did a before and after with the rail. The MBC sounds tempting

change your plugs and check them after letting the car idle for a few minutes. if they are not crazy black (like they normally are) ,then i would be willing to bet that the rail has something to do with the a/f curve.

[Defgeph]

The rail helps, but most of the A/F curve is due to the RC ECU.

As I Think about it. I can dig around for the plugs that came with the clip.
When I change my plugs, I'm leaving them in for a long time. Pulling plugs is at least and hour long process for me.

[urbandork]

nice

[CelicaZR]

Impressive

[presure2]

nice numbers and VERY nice air/fuel curve. i wonder how much your new fuel rail has to do with that?

ps. you need an mbc..lol

I really wish now that I did a before and after with the rail. The MBC sounds tempting

change your plugs and check them after letting the car idle for a few minutes. if they are not crazy black (like they normally are) ,then i would be willing to bet that the rail has something to do with the a/f curve.

the rail has nothing to do with the curve.
all the rail does is lower the pressure drop across the rail.
if anything, it'd make it richer.
its all in that RC ecu.

[OOBE]

Good stuff, man...congrats on the nice numbers!

[jgreening]

nice numbers and VERY nice air/fuel curve. i wonder how much your new fuel rail has to do with that?

ps. you need an mbc..lol

I really wish now that I did a before and after with the rail. The MBC sounds tempting

change your plugs and check them after letting the car idle for a few minutes. if they are not crazy black (like they normally are) ,then i would be willing to bet that the rail has something to do with the a/f curve.

the rail has nothing to do with the curve.
all the rail does is lower the pressure drop across the rail.
if anything, it'd make it richer.
its all in that RC ecu.

Agreed.

Very nice numbers. You are still on the ct26 right? If so, thats damn impressive.

[Defgeph]

Agreed.

Very nice numbers. You are still on the ct26 right? If so, thats damn impressive.

Yep, Still on the JDM CT26. You getting nervous Jay ? J/P

Thanks Jay.

[BBoYRuGGeD]

wow damn thats awesome jeff...those numbers and that a/f curve looks good as heck

bboy

[devilsden97]

ok well the world has a 500whp celica....its time the US got one....dont u? lol

Amazing numbers, i was like, "holy ****! 17.5psi! ah!" then i saw numbers and was like "AH!" lol

Simply amazing.

[snapshotgt]

One of my favorite Celica’s in the world…such a HOT car all around! Very nice numbers.

~snap

[jgreening]

Agreed.

Very nice numbers. You are still on the ct26 right? If so, thats damn impressive.

Yep, Still on the JDM CT26. You getting nervous Jay ? J/P

Thanks Jay.

Actually, I think we are pretty close in power right now since I put the silencer on. It is coming off soon though as I am having a little more exhaust work done. I bet I lost 20-30whp with that thing. With it off, I won't be scared

[brianforster]

nice.. id never have the balls to run 17.5 psi though lol.. maybe for ONE dyno pull, do you DD that?

id be very pleased with 240 whp @ 15 psi with my upgraded ct26... i wanna go to the dyno as soon as i know my car is going to be reliable lol

[lagos]

nice numbers and VERY nice air/fuel curve. i wonder how much your new fuel rail has to do with that?

ps. you need an mbc..lol

I really wish now that I did a before and after with the rail. The MBC sounds tempting

change your plugs and check them after letting the car idle for a few minutes. if they are not crazy black (like they normally are) ,then i would be willing to bet that the rail has something to do with the a/f curve.

the rail has nothing to do with the curve.
all the rail does is lower the pressure drop across the rail.
if anything, it'd make it richer.
its all in that RC ecu.

i remember ChrisD from ctech telling me that once he installed an upgraded fuel rail, his spark plugs no longer fouled up like the do on every swap. so thats why i was thinking it might have something to do with it.

[burneeed]

@ 20psi I thought my wheels were going to fly off my car heh.

[lagos]

@ 20psi I thought my wheels were going to fly off my car heh.

you really should be running any more then 15 on a ct26.

[97sccelica]

time for a turbo upgrade

gt35r should do the trick

nice power

[Defgeph]

i remember ChrisD from ctech telling me that once he installed an upgraded fuel rail, his spark plugs no longer fouled up like the do on every swap. so thats why i was thinking it might have something to do with it.

I'm not doubting ChrisD, but I have never fouled out one plug with my swap. So, I dont really understand what you mean ?

Did you ever foul out plugs with yours ?



Thanks for all the complements guys.

BTW GT35R is a little to much for me

[lagos]

if you put in fresh spark plugs into a 3s, and just let it idle (not even drive or boost it) for about 2minutes, then take them out, they will be totally black. chrisD said this dosnt happen with an upgraded fuel rail .

[playr158]

time for a turbo upgrade

gt35r should do the trick

nice power

T04E 46T

very nice run jeff and great video

that RC is defenitly beating the expectations

[nik]

very nice numbers i cant wait to getmine on the dyno

[brianforster]

time for a turbo upgrade

gt35r should do the trick

nice power

T04E 46T

very nice run jeff and great video

that RC is defenitly beating the expectations

ill be posting dyno numbers with that turbo sometime in the summer

[Batman722]

actually those are REALLY great #s
we just NEED to get that boost controler set PROPERLY.

[presure2]

just for comparisons sake, heres an overlay of jeffs best run VS a bone stock usdm 95mr2T
i think jeff has a slight advantage...

[Defgeph]

I said whoa! When I first saw that run file, the difference is like night and day.

[lagos]

now look at the mr2s "tuning". dont you think there is something wrong with that? i cant understand how toyota could tune a car off the scale ritch and sell it like that. there has to be some type of issue going on. that car looks like it has no factory tuning at all.

[presure2]

actually, art, thats pretty typical of what you see outta a usdm 3sgte.
that specific dyno chart is one that is used all over mr2oc, and was given to me by ken blake, as refrence for my runs.

[presure2]

heres a copy past from KO racings website, its a street brawler VS stock setup, stock is the red graph, you can see its virtually the same as the one i posted.

[lagos]

what im tring to figure out, is why is it off the chart ritch? whats the problem thats going on here? is it the afm flapper door? is it from an upgraded fuel pump? could the factory ecu tuning be that horrible? i cant imagine the toyota engineers tuning the motor on a bench dyno and making it that crazy ritch. if anything they would want to lean it out so that they would sell more cars by being able to post a better mpg number. it almost seems like there is a common problem with all the cars, that toyota didnt intend to happen.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 29, 2006 - 12:35 AM

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yea, the A/F on the MR2 is wacky. Maybe Toyota just wanted to be way over-safe on the motor, but thats just crazy rich.

And Jeff, thats a beautiful dyno run. That thing really pulls now, my personal a$$ dyno agrees with those numbers as well.

[Defgeph]

Thanks Corey, anytime you wanna chill gimmie a call.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Anytime. I really want to see what the thing is like in the day, I think i've only ever riden in the RC at night. We're stealth like that.

I'm going to see if the weather is looking alright for tommorrow, I'll call you.

[presure2]

what im tring to figure out, is why is it off the chart ritch? whats the problem thats going on here? is it the afm flapper door? is it from an upgraded fuel pump? could the factory ecu tuning be that horrible? i cant imagine the toyota engineers tuning the motor on a bench dyno and making it that crazy ritch. if anything they would want to lean it out so that they would sell more cars by being able to post a better mpg number. it almost seems like there is a common problem with all the cars, that toyota didnt intend to happen.

there IS no problem, art.
heres ANOTHER....this time from celicatech...we all know the stock ecu is stupid rich from the factory...why are you denying it now?

mods at the time:

2.5" exhaust w/ gutted cat
3" DIY intake
tyfoon motorsports BOV on tmic
11psi

[lagos]

there IS no problem, art.
heres ANOTHER....this time from celicatech...we all know the stock ecu is stupid rich from the factory...why are you denying it now?

im not denying anything, read my posts again. im trying to understand WHY its that ritch. based on those dyno sheets, the 3sgte pretty much has no tuning at all. everything is just set to full bast, 100% duty cycle. it looks like a 5yr old kid tuned it. its kind of hard to belive toyota would intend to tune the car like that.


jeffs car on the other hand, looks like what you would expect a factory tuned motor to look like on a dyno. not too ritch, not to lean. just right.

[presure2]

art, one thing we need to look at is that when we look at these dynos, is the fact that we're only seeing one small slice of the ecu map, WOT only.
i would imagine that toyota set the maps so rich in the WOT part as a saftey measure, to protect the engine from us dumb americans..lol
i would think that on a load bearing dyno like the dyno dynamics ones, at diffrent load points we'd see huge diffrences in way the maps are programed as far as efficency, and a/f raitos would reflect that i would think.
IMO there are 2 things that makes jeffs run look so much better as far as A/F ratio is concerned.
one is the JDM RC ECU, which IMO just has an even more agressive tune than the normal JDM ecu, and a MUCH more agressive one than the USDM.
and, the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal, there are quite a few guys on mr2oc that have runs @ 15psi+ with richer a/f's then what jeff has.

[jgreening]

The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal

If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

[presure2]

The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal

If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

ohh i agree with that 100% jay,
im not saying hes maxing out, im just pointing out the fact that @ 15psi your gonna use more of the available fuel than @ 10psi.

[lagos]

finally, instead of giving me a hard time, we are talking about the topic i was trying to bring up !

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

the other thing we know is that the AFM is a different part number and is bigger. why did toyota do this? does the afm have a better resolution? or is it just bigger so that it can flow more air?

[jgreening]

The a/f at WOT in a USDM 3sgte is set that way for engine safety, reliabiliity, and infrequency of warranty claims.

In short, I agree with everything Manny has said except this:

the fact that on that run hes running an average of around 15.5 or so psi with like a 17.5 psi peak, hes just using up more of the available fuel, and IMO thats not even that big of a deal

If your a/f ration is leaning out due to maxing out your injector duty cycle, you are playing with FIRE!!!!!! I am quite confident that the clean a/f line is attributable to the ECU.

ohh i agree with that 100% jay,
im not saying hes maxing out, im just pointing out the fact that @ 15psi your gonna use more of the available fuel than @ 10psi.

True, but all else being equal (i.e. I don't know the intricacies of the tuning of the Toyota ECUs) the a/f ratios should be similar if you have enough injector. The ECU will only send an amount of fuel required for the given airflow. I would suspect that for any given 3s on the AFM and stock ECU and fuel system, the a/f at WOT, if different, would be richer than off-WOT due to the limits of the AFM and programming the ECU for reliability.

[jgreening]

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

ART, YOUR A NOOB!!! hehe j/k

Is ChrisD running the stock regulator with an upgraded pump? If so, I think your right. There are a number of swappers, like me, who could not use the stock regulator because it allowed for a HUGE base fp. If he has a properly tuned afpr, I think there is something else going on.

The regulator keeps the f/p constant to the injector so that the injector injects the exact same amount every time (at a given load and rpm). If working properly, the fpr does not allow more fuel to "get by".

[lagos]

now what about the bigger AFM and the upgraded fuel rail. if what chrisD said about his sparkplugs with an upgraded rail is true, then this could also have something to do with the a/f ratio. when we put these huge fuel pumps on there, the fuel has to go somewhere. since an FPR is just a spring loaded valve, preset at one tension, its probably going to react differently when it has more fuel to deal with. .......THIS IS MY THEORY/OPINION ONLY. DONT CRUCIFY ME

ART, YOUR A NOOB!!! hehe j/k

Is ChrisD running the stock regulator with an upgraded pump? If so, I think your right. There are a number of swappers, like me, who could not use the stock regulator because it allowed for a HUGE base fp. If he has a properly tuned afpr, I think there is something else going on.

The regulator keeps the f/p constant to the injector so that the injector injects the exact same amount every time (at a given load and rpm). If working properly, the fpr does not allow more fuel to "get by".

BINGO!!!!!! yes, from what i remember it was a stock fpr with an upgraded rail .

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets.

This post has been edited by lagos: Apr 30, 2006 - 12:40 PM

[presure2]

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets

yea, but if that was the case, jeff would exibit the same results. hes running the walbro too.

[lagos]

jay, you are the only one who ever had his fuel pressure checked after having a walbro installed. for all we know, we all have the same issue you had and just dont know it. ...... this could explain the very ritch A/F ratio on some of the dyno sheets

yea, but if that was the case, jeff would exibit the same results. hes running the walbro too.

its possible that upgrading to a bigger fuel rail (like the ats) can fix that type of problem.

[jgreening]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

[lagos]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 1, 2006 - 11:53 AM

[presure2]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO!

[lagos]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO!

funny you should say that. im probably going to dyno today!

[presure2]

The rail has nothing to do with it. DEF's a/f ratio is explained by the fact he has a different ECU.

yes, thats right...and he is also not showing any negative drawbacks from an upgraded fuel pump with a stock fpr. who knows what his dyno would look like on the stock rail with a walbro.

thats where you come in, art....NOW GET TO THE DYNO!

funny you should say that. im probably going to dyno today!

awesome! be sure to bring a floppy so you can get the runfiles!

[lagos]

so i guess i was wrong about the upgraded fuel pump/ fuel rail issue. the upgraded pumps on a stock rail and fpr dosnt seem to cause the car to run too ritch. the crazy ritch issue that you see with the 3sgte dynos seems to be a problem on usdm ecu's.

[zipstrips]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

[lagos]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

This post has been edited by lagos: May 3, 2006 - 11:47 PM

[Defgeph]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.

[lagos]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.

do you have a link to any info that says this? based on our dynos, our tuning and power looks to be the same.

[Defgeph]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.

do you have a link to any info that says this? based on our dynos, our tuning and power looks to be the same.

The same ?

Lets take a look

You dyno'd 229HP & 240TQ @ 12- 13 PSI

I dyno'd 245HP & 245TQ @ 12-13 PSI Thats doesnt looks the "same" to me.

Your fuel curve is completely different from mine. You need to get over the your thoughts that the ST185 JDM ECU and the ST185RC ECU are the same. They ARE NOT the same.

Manny, in the morning could you post up a pic of my fuel curve vs. Art's fuel curve. Post up the graph so its easy reading for everyone.

I got one link for you
RC press release.

Even in this thread, people are telling you that you are WRONG.

And you probably going to say "show me proof". I'll continue to say look at your dyno.

[lagos]

the DYNO WARS are on buddy!





you didnt do any runs at 12-13psi. your lowest run was at 15psi (lets round up, that 14.79psi).

first run (blue) is your 245hp 246tq @ 15psi
2nd run is my 2nd run after major knock response. 229hp 240TQ @ 12-13psi. you gained 16hp and 6tq by running 2-3psi more then i did.

last run (green) is my last run on the dyno. as you can tell, i 3 runs in a row less then a few minutes apart, so the car lost some power from the heatsaok, but look at the A/F curve. with each dyno run, my ecu kept correcting inself after that massive knock response i got on my 1st run.

thats pretty damn close considering that:

you ran more boost then i did,
you have a lightweight flywheel and im on the stock one,
you dont have your AC and i do,
you dont have powersteering and i do,
and that you have a water to air IC, while i have a fmic.

Even in this thread, people are telling you that you are WRONG.

the past coments about tuning and A/F ratio were made by comparting dynos of a stock USDM mr2 to your "RC" ecu. after my dyno runs, it turns out that our a/f ratio is very similar, and the usdm one is the only one that is crazy 10:1 ritch from 3grand on up

I got one link for you
RC press release.

the press release dosnt say anything about different fuel maps. all it says is that the car gained 4hp from the water to air IC, over the stock st185

This post has been edited by lagos: May 4, 2006 - 12:48 AM

[playr158]

im jumping into the thread here, but with the RC, does it have the same injectors as the other 3s motors? i would think the AFM and injectors would be paired. (larger afm, larger injectors)

its the same 440cc injectors.

i wonder what the reason for changing the afm was?

Different fuel maps in the RC ECU.

do you have a link to any info that says this? based on our dynos, our tuning and power looks to be the same.

The same ?

Lets take a look

You dyno'd 229HP & 240TQ @ 12- 13 PSI

I dyno'd 245HP & 245TQ @ 12-13 PSI Thats doesnt looks the "same" to me.

Your fuel curve is completely different from mine. You need to get over the your thoughts that the ST185 JDM ECU and the ST185RC ECU are the same. They ARE NOT the same.

Manny, in the morning could you post up a pic of my fuel curve vs. Art's fuel curve. Post up the graph so its easy reading for everyone.

I got one link for you
RC press release.

Even in this thread, people are telling you that you are WRONG.

And you probably going to say "show me proof". I'll continue to say look at your dyno.

i'm not in this to argue but you just said "245hp @ 12-13psi"

your sig says "245hp @17.5psi" and from your first post "At 17.5 PSI, I put down 246HP and 261 TQ. Just insane"

which one is it?
Art on the high end ran 13psi...a difference of 4.5psi...
i'm pretty sure a 15hp gap can be closed ( +/- 2hp) if he upped his 4.5 pounds

This post has been edited by playr158: May 4, 2006 - 1:01 AM

[brianforster]

i agree with dan

[lagos]

in all fairness, i wish my local dyno places could log boost. at least inf jeffs runs, you get an exact peak as specific a 14.79psi (also where the car made its peak HP), while im only looking at my crappy autometer gauge, while trying to keep an eye on the rpms.

[Consynx]

Dyno war?
what?!
Yesssss!
i'll join asap

[brianforster]

ok i read the press release and found this


"The 3S-GTE 2.0-litre engine with 16 valves and twin overhead camshafts is largely unchanged, but the turbocharger now features a water (instead of air) cooled intercooler increasing power from 201 to 205 bhp at 6000 rpm."

so.. if im reading this correctly the RC version has 4 more bhp stock? and the article says thats entirely because of the w2a intercooler?



edit: oh i see, thats usdm?

jdm rc has about 10 more hp than the regular jdm then?

ok then i add this:


if they are different, and the difference is only 10 crank hp, i think this is a stupid arguement

This post has been edited by brianforster: May 4, 2006 - 2:28 AM

[presure2]

jeffs run is an average if 13.97 psi, call it 14.
with his erratic boost control, it was a spiking up and down.

you can very clearly see the diffrence in the fuel curve there.
IMO you guys should both just relax, you both have awesome, well built, fast cars.
besides, if you wanna start "dyno wars" i have BOTH you guys beat for area under the curve...
art in blue
jeff in green
me in red

its on like donkey kong!

Attached image(s)

 

[Consynx]

ooOOOOOo No!
lol

[Defgeph]

i'm not in this to argue but you just said "245hp @ 12-13psi"

your sig says "245hp @17.5psi" and from your first post "At 17.5 PSI, I put down 246HP and 261 TQ. Just insane"

which one is it?
Art on the high end ran 13psi...a difference of 4.5psi...
i'm pretty sure a 15hp gap can be closed ( +/- 2hp) if he upped his 4.5 pounds

I did more than one run Dan. 17.5 was my higest pressure. At the same boost pressure my car has more HP.

if they are different, and the difference is only 10 crank hp, i think this is a stupid arguement.

I agree Brian. But some people can accept that as a fact.

besides, if you wanna start "dyno wars" i have BOTH you guys beat for area under the curve...
its on like donkey kong!

Presure2

[lagos]

jeffs run is an average if 13.97 psi, call it 14.
with his erratic boost control, it was a spiking up and down.

you posted his runfile7. thats where he ran 17.5psi. not 14 like you claim. it dosnt matter if he only hit 17.5psi for a second, because dynos measure PEAK VALUE, not an average. post that file again, with the boost being displayed !

you can very clearly see the diffrence in the fuel curve there.

i stared my run at a later RPM then his dyno. also, my A/f ratio was all messed up from the 1st knock response run, and kept getting better and bettter with every run. no 2 cars are going to look 110% exactly the same, but i have no doubt that if i reset my ecu, and start my dyno run at the same rpm, then the 2 fuel cureves will look closer (only difference now is that im ritcher at 3kish and a little richer from 5k up. im also running less boost. )

IMO you guys should both just relax, you both have awesome, well built, fast cars.

jeff. i think you have an awesome car, that makes great power. mad props to you jeff (in not kidding). this isint anything about that.
the only thing i dont understand is how you try to alwasy say that your motor is 10times better then a normal st185 because its "RC". it DOES have a much better water to air IC, but besides that, ive never seen any other proof that its any better then a normal ST185. ive never read anywhere about these better fuel maps that jeff always claims his ecu has and ive very confident that i can hit the same power levels if i turn up the boost to the same setting as you.

besides, if you wanna start "dyno wars" i have BOTH you guys beat for area under the curve...

on RACE GAS!

[lagos]

this is jeffs runfile7 that manny claims is a 13.97 psi. you can clearly see that the cars peak boost is 17.5psi and thats where it also made its highest power. remember dynos are ment to measure peak value, not average. even jeff posted that run in his sig as "245 WHP 260 TQ @ 17.5 PSI"




This post has been edited by lagos: May 4, 2006 - 10:08 AM

[Defgeph]

jeff. i think you have an awesome car, that makes great power. mad props to you jeff (in not kidding). this isint anything about that.
the only thing i dont understand is how you try to alwasy say that your motor is 10times better then a normal st185 because its "RC". it DOES have a much better water to air IC, but besides that, ive never seen any other proof that its any better then a normal ST185. ive never read anywhere about these better fuel maps that jeff always claims his ecu has and ive very confident that i can hit the same power levels if i turn up the boost to the same setting as you.


Thanks for the complement.

But,
I have never said my motor is ten times better than anything. All I do is share every experience I have with this swap. You seem to knock the ECU, AFM, and motor everytime I post. The only time I spoke highly about my engine is when someone bashed it.
And you can quote me on that.

[Defgeph]

Here is a run where I spiked to 14.7

[lagos]

jeff. i think you have an awesome car, that makes great power. mad props to you jeff (in not kidding). this isint anything about that.
the only thing i dont understand is how you try to alwasy say that your motor is 10times better then a normal st185 because its "RC". it DOES have a much better water to air IC, but besides that, ive never seen any other proof that its any better then a normal ST185. ive never read anywhere about these better fuel maps that jeff always claims his ecu has and ive very confident that i can hit the same power levels if i turn up the boost to the same setting as you.


Thanks for the complement.

But,
I have never said my motor is ten times better than anything. All I do is share every experience I have with this swap. You seem to knock the ECU, AFM, and motor everytime I post. The only time I spoke highly about my engine is when someone bashed it.
And you can quote me on that.

your ALWAYS saying that your rc ecu is much better then a normal jdm st185, and that you are making a lot more power then a normal st185 ever could, because your "RC" and the fuel maps are way better. in my eyes i have never seen any poof of anything like that.

dont take any of this the wrong way. im really not trying to give you a hard time. i alot of this is good ol trash talkin and nothing more. im also trying to learn what sets the RC version of the 3sgte apart from a plain st185 based on testing and comparing.



now, where is jgreening, with his dyno sheet that puts us all to shame! hahaha

This post has been edited by lagos: May 4, 2006 - 10:18 AM

[Defgeph]

your ALWAYS saying that your rc ecu is much better then a normal jdm st185, and that you are making a lot more power then a normal st185 ever could, because your "RC" and the fuel maps are way better. in my eyes i have never seen any poof of anything like that.

The only time I have said it was better is when people bash on the ECU. I have never said my car or engine is better then something else.

I dont enjoy constantly defending something that we put alot of hard work into.

[lagos]

Here is a run where I spiked to 14.7

yeah, thats 15psi. my car was only able to hit somewhere around 13psi. so you made 16hp and 6TQ more then i did because you ran about 2-3psi MORE BOOST then i did. this would also prove what people say about 1psi giving you about 10 more hp.

you made more power, because you ran more boost, plain and simple.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 4, 2006 - 10:31 AM

[Batman722]

OK in all fairness, this argument or "discussion" is crap.

this may sound bad but I have to point it out. We are missing an important fact, something that makes all of this real.

We do not know for sure what Art ran for PSI. Manny's and Jeff's are logged, but we are going on Art's word. Not that we do not trust Art, that not what I am saying, we just need it documented. That is a huge variable that makes and breaks everything.

until that is documented, this arguing is just plain dumb.

(once again, not that I do not trust Art, I am only pointing out a fact)

[lagos]

We do not know for sure what Art ran for PSI. Manny's and Jeff's are logged, but we are going on Art's word. Not that we do not trust Art, that not what I am saying, we just need it documented. That is a huge variable that makes and breaks everything.

dustin, i TOTALLY agree with you. thats why i posted, that in all fairness, i wish my dynojet could log boost so that we can compare things better.

my plan is to hit the dyno again soon. this time, i will be using an EBC so that i can dail my boost in to 15psi peak while on the dyno. i will also use jeffs awesome camera mount, to record my gauges while doing the run, instead of video taping how bad my motor mounts are again this year...lol

[playr158]

Here is a run where I spiked to 14.7

well if your now going to claim this.....i think you need to change up your sig and previous statements cause your making conflicting statements

and if you really wannt talk A/F i have you ALL BEAT

i got more area under my A/F graph then most of you got under your HP

on a side note.....why don't we make a dyno day were we can all go up and battle it out

[lagos]

on a side note.....why don't we make a dyno day were we can all go up and battle it out

that sounds like fun.

i can probably set something up with my place if you guys want.

[brianforster]

we should change one day of the 3 day mega meet to a dyno day, we dont need 2 track days!

[Defgeph]

well if your now going to claim this.....i think you need to change up your sig and previous statements cause your making conflicting statements

Dan read the thread I did more than one run. I just used the above run as an example.



This run justifys my sig.

on a side note.....why don't we make a dyno day were we can all go up and battle it out

that sounds like fun.

i can probably set something up with my place if you guys want.

We NEED boost log !

lets go up to RI.

[brianforster]

DYNO DAY IN THE NJ MEET the 3 DAY ONE!

it will be aaaaaaaawesome

[lagos]

We NEED boost log !

lets go up to RI.

yeah, your right. we do need boost log to make things fair and mannys place would be a great place to do it at..... but i still cant do a far away trip or an overnight thing, so i wouldnt be able to make it to something like that

[Defgeph]

Finding a dyno open on a sunday is almost impossible. Day 3 will be at Enlishtown which will be a huge event. They always have a dyno comp there.

The shop in RI is very nice, we could book a whole saturday there.

[presure2]

this is jeffs runfile7 that manny claims is a 13.97 psi. you can clearly see that the cars peak boost is 17.5psi and thats where it also made its highest power. remember dynos are ment to measure peak value, not average. even jeff posted that run in his sig as "245 WHP 260 TQ @ 17.5 PSI"

art, dont put words in my mouth.
i CLEARLY said, its an AVERAGE , not what he ran.
i mean, its pretty obvious that his boost is VERY incosistant.
and yea, when i run more than 12 lbs, on a 9.5:1 compression motor, thats not built to take boost, i run a 50/50 mix of race gas and 93 pump, to stave off detonation...got a problem with that??

[Rjb23]

This forum has gotten pretty dumb when people are argueing over who's ecu is better, and who's fuel curve is better!

[brianforster]

on the contrary the forced induction forum is the only one i regularly check

[lagos]

This forum has gotten pretty dumb when people are argueing over who's ecu is better, and who's fuel curve is better!

its good to compare things in the real world and see how they really work. we just need to not take anything as a personal attack, because its not. its like scinece class in highschool. you have a theory, and then do a lab day where you test the 2 things under the same conditions and post your findings.

[presure2]

This forum has gotten pretty dumb when people are argueing over who's ecu is better, and who's fuel curve is better!

IMO its not about whos is "better" ...90% of the last 2 pages is personal jokes.
its about the diffrences in the factory tunes between the usdm ecu, jdm ecu and RC ecu.
my joke about "area under the curve" was just that, a joke, and the people it was meant for i think CLEARLY understood that.

::edit::
id also like to add for the record, that this type of thread, that has DOCUMENTED info, and lots of good discussion about the ins and outs of things, is GREAT stuff.
sometimes people may take things a little personally, but its only because we all put so much time and effort into our cars, sometimes its hard to NOT take things personally.
as long as we can all stay civil, and continue to learn and take away good info, this is EXACTLY the kind of tech talk this site should be based on.

[lagos]

IMO its not about whos is "better"

i agree. let not forget that we all have awesome cars that are in the 200hp+ club.

[presure2]

IMO its not about whos is "better"

i agree. let not forget that we all have awesome cars that are in the 200hp+ club.

225+
yea, like ive said before THIS is THE thing to remember:
run 3 is my car, stock 5sfe with the injen intake with heatsheild


thats what we've come from, and even more so for jeff, with the ST

good stuff!

Attached image(s)

 

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Manny thats awesome......going from near-stock to your current readings, the A/F ratio has stayed nearly the same running almost a factory-healthy ratio. Just sick dude.

All you guys have sick cars. Look out for a certain blue GT and certain silver celica owner to be hitting up these dynos soon. I really can't wait to get rolling on a swap already.

[playr158]

well if your now going to claim this.....i think you need to change up your sig and previous statements cause your making conflicting statements

Dan read the thread I did more than one run. I just used the above run as an example.



This run justifys my sig.

on a side note.....why don't we make a dyno day were we can all go up and battle it out

that sounds like fun.

i can probably set something up with my place if you guys want.

We NEED boost log !

lets go up to RI.

in that run i see peak HP of 245 @ 90mph which is ruffly (rounded) 14psi

[madmods]

Good posts, dyno sheets talk the talk. Whats next jeff?

[Defgeph]

Good posts, dyno sheets talk the talk. Whats next jeff?

Correct the horrible boost level is on top of the list.

Then once that is all set, I'm not to sure whats in store for this car. Maybe you guys have some ideas as to what steps I could take, or upgrades I should look into.


Jeff

[jgreening]

Good posts, dyno sheets talk the talk. Whats next jeff?

Correct the horrible boost level is on top of the list.

Then once that is all set, I'm not to sure whats in store for this car. Maybe you guys have some ideas as to what steps I could take, or upgrades I should look into.


Jeff

GT30R, larger injectors, cams and EMS. I see 375whp in your future.

[Defgeph]

I like it
But not in a FWD.

[jgreening]

Nothing some big 9" DRs in the front couldn't help.