AWD Options

[fastcelica20]

Okay I have read many threads and im still confused. i've talked to baddica about his awd stuff he has. here are some pictures he sent me:







i was reading celiman05's thread about his awd conversion and he doesn't state how he did it. i will not be doing it because my cousin is helping me. he is great at fabricating and welding. but im not sure if baddica has all the stuff needed. someone help me out on things that are needed. YEs i do have the finances to do this. since baddica lives near me i could just scoop up his awd conversion stuff. well help me out. im very interested in doing this.

[lagos]

if you live around celiman05 and you have money, you should talk to his dad and ask how much he would charge to do it for you. its not an easy thing to do and you really have to know your stuff.

or if you really do have the money to do this, why not just buy the black one thats already converted and being sold right now on this site?

[fastcelica20]

if you live around celiman05 and you have money, you should talk to his dad and ask how much he would charge to do it for you. its not an easy thing to do and you really have to know your stuff.

or if you really do have the money to do this, why not just buy the black one thats already converted and being sold right now on this site?

^^ i live way far from celiman05. anyways well i want to learn to do things and 11K is outta my range.

[lagos]

YEs i do have the finances to do this

11K is outta my range.

so what kind of budget do you have for this project?

[snapshotgt]

YEs i do have the finances to do this

11K is outta my range.

so what kind of budget do you have for this project?

x2 ---> a AWD conversion costs as much, or more than the car in the B/S forum being sold here. I've heard around $15k.

~snap

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: May 29, 2006 - 1:25 PM

[celicasteve]

YEs i do have the finances to do this

11K is outta my range.

so what kind of budget do you have for this project?

x2 ---> a AWD conversion costs as much, or more than the car in the B/S forum being sold here. I've heard around $15k.

~snap

i highly doubt that! where is all that cost coming from? if you do all the fabricating yourself? Ill be doing it after i get the swapped st (hopefully..crosses fingers) i have a frind that owns a shop that does rollcages and fabrication, he gives me great deals..like back halfing my 1073 plymouth and doing a full cage for $2000! thats a 4 link also (i already had the frame and suspension)

This can't be much more work..ill probably add a cage also. the floors ont he 6th gens as the same (in the passenger compartment., the trunk is different)

Steve

[lagos]

its a lot of custom work and you need a lot of little stuff people forget about. pretty soon everything adds up to more then you think.

for starters you need to do a 3sgte swap thats at least 5 grand. if you already have one, you have to take your motor out and swap the awd tranny in . thats at least a grand right there to buy the tranny and a new clutch. then you need the whole rear end and drive shaft. probably need the suspension, and brake setup from the gt4 to make things work right with the new subframe. not to mention that you need to have done something like this a few times before to make sure you put the rear end on straight and that nothing will come loose and kill you one day.


for 11grand, the already converted and swaped one is a steal.

[snapshotgt]

YEs i do have the finances to do this

11K is outta my range.

so what kind of budget do you have for this project?

x2 ---> a AWD conversion costs as much, or more than the car in the B/S forum being sold here. I've heard around $15k.

~snap

i highly doubt that! where is all that cost coming from? if you do all the fabricating yourself? Ill be doing it after i get the swapped st (hopefully..crosses fingers) i have a frind that owns a shop that does rollcages and fabrication, he gives me great deals..like back halfing my 1073 plymouth and doing a full cage for $2000! thats a 4 link also (i already had the frame and suspension)

This can't be much more work..ill probably add a cage also. the floors ont he 6th gens as the same (in the passenger compartment., the trunk is different)

Steve

I talked to the person that has the converted st205 in the b/s forum, that's where i got the $15k number.

I agree with Art, that st205 is a HUGE steal, it already has a 3sgte swap, AND FULL AWD conversion with all gt4 OEM parts. Many experienced members here would tell you that the 11 k is great price.

~snap

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: May 29, 2006 - 2:28 PM

[celicasteve]

no doubt that is a steal!!! but im sure that i can do it cheaper, plus i have some one who build race car chassis and such so im sure that he could put it in with no problems. ill be looking for all the parts soon, it would be nice to buy a rear half cut

Steve

[fastcelica20]

man as im reading this, im thinking my awd aint going to happen then.

[Baddica95]

how much do all the awd parts usually go for???

[presure2]

well, your looking at in the neighborhood of 3k for just for a clean front cut, then at least another 2k+ or so for the rear, and thats if you can find a great deal.
and thats the easiest part.
unless you or someone you know that likes to work free is a master fabricator, (like celiman05) or you have VERY deep pockets to drop into a 10yr old car, it just aint gonna happen.

[Baddica95]

well, your looking at in the neighborhood of 3k for just for a clean front cut, then at least another 2k+ or so for the rear, and thats if you can find a great deal.
and thats the easiest part.
unless you or someone you know that likes to work free is a master fabricator, (like celiman05) or you have VERY deep pockets to drop into a 10yr old car, it just aint gonna happen.

well, yaa see, im the one selling the awd parts...they came with my st205 front clip and im pretty sure i have everything to make it happen, and im not selling it for much at all.. so i dont think a project like this is going to cost as much as people make it seem...

[celicast3sgte]

too many people are nay saying on this forum... its not going to help moral for this guy. so lets HELP him instead. celiman05 if you can think of any parts you dont see and had to buy to make ur swap happen. help out and post it. also ask guys like gt4wrc for pics of their under carriage so you can get an idea of what youll need.

STOP SAYING NO!!!!

..and im spent

[FORGMANN]

i have mentioned this so many times my fingers hurt typing it again .. as one of the old guys on this forum i have to say when your dealing with drivetrain and structual parts of a car doing things "cheaply" may seem great at first but i assure you in time you will end up paying more ..this a fact ...

there is no awd conversion celica in the US that even remotely impresses me in overall build quality except for rod millens 7th gen but he had unlimited budget . a few on this site had done it and i applaud them for trying to have a complete st205 as possible ..

anyone seriously commited to awd swap .. you really need to get a hold of a importer and get a roof cut st205 which will cost you 4-6k .. with this you will have everything needed to have a complete st205 .. gas tank, lines, floor pan, drivetrain ..etc.... this will save you a ton of money in the long run and if done correctly no one could tell it was converted .. you might even have a car that could bring some good money if you decided to sell later on

later this summer i will set up a thread full of detailed pictures of just about every inch of my st205 for all to use ..

This post has been edited by FORGMANN: May 29, 2006 - 8:25 PM

[celicast3sgte]

thanks forgmann for the help and the word to teh wise to do it, but do it right. i may just want that info here shortly

[celicasteve]

well the car im getting is already turbo...and fully built. a trans is pretty cheap.as noone uses theres for there swap.... there are plenty of race cars that are backhalfed..whats the difference??? its acutally easier!!

i agree try to help people instead of saying no, becuase every year there is more and more poeple doing it.

Again toyota is a master at re-using parts. don't think that the st205 is a totally different car! the driveshaft tunell is already there..so the fuel tank isn't in the right spot, that probably has to do with crash saftey..plus it gives the person to mount it rearward, to help with traction on the rear.

Im not saying that anyone can do this, it is a very seriuos matter you don't only indanger yourself but anyone else around you. This is only left to profesionals (or atleast looking over and checking).

And why hasn't anyone that has acutally done it, posted photos and give detailed instructions on whats was needed???

Steve

[lagos]

every year there is more and more poeple doing it.

really? where? because i only know of 2 that exist, and one of them is for sale.

[fastcelica20]

every year there is more and more poeple doing it.

really? where? because i only know of 2 that exist, and one of them is for sale.

^^^well you never know man. only a handfull of us here. there's the other million or even billion people. there could be some people out there who has done it but never came out. no one knows for sure. those are the only two you know because they're really the only ones who came out.

[Defgeph]

There is a red one in europe. It was a ST converted into a ST205.
It was mentioned here about a year ago.

If you have the means to do the conversion, do it. I would love to have AWD in my car. I have been thinking about doing it as well. Like noted above this is not something you can cheap out on. Everything has to be very well planned, calculated, and built perfect. Time, money, and skill is all it really takes. I hope you can pull it off, I would like to some day.

A how to in the future would be freaking amazing !

[jgreening]

Here is my opinion: The fact that 3 or 4 known people have done this swap is not a good thing for the average reader of this forum. Some people will be encouraged to try this despite not having the skills or budget.

Bottom line: If you want a powerful AWD import buy a STI thats a few years old. Much wiser move.

[Defgeph]

I agree with you Jay.

Searched alittle

Kinda side tracking here, but I really like this thread. RWD

What a job that would be.

[jgreening]

an oldie but a goodie.

[Andy B]

Just to butt in here, you are taking on a mamoth task doing the 4wd conversion. I have to agree with previous posts, it is not a simple job to do. But if your serious about it and have the time and means to do it - fair play.

There is a guy on the GT4OC who did the conversion bout a year ago. Who found it easier to remove the entire floorpan from his 6th gen and replace it with the gt4 floor pan, thus having all the fittings etc for the 4wd. Again though the quality of fabrication and strength is a must. His turned out absolutley brilliant and the photo gallery of the piece by piece of the work showed just how big a job it was.

I would take some time to plan your conversion before tackling it.

Good luck fella,

Andy.....

[brianforster]

reminds me of me just a couple months ago about my swap.. my my

This post has been edited by brianforster: May 30, 2006 - 10:24 AM

[lagos]

His turned out absolutley brilliant and the photo gallery of the piece by piece of the work showed just how big a job it was.

do you have a link to his photo gallery?

[Andy B]

I will have a search around the GT4OC and see if i can find it for you. Basically it was a complete strip down of the car, to the bare shell, then re built. Not an easy task !

Andy....

[sinner96ST]

Fixing the bugs that come up with just swapping the motor in to the GT/ST shell can be pretty intense, I don't even want to know what kind of problems you'd have with a complete drivetrain swap. These guys that are 'nay sayers' in this thread are just doing it to save people a headache which could cost thousands of dollars, or personal injury due to improper installation.

Even if the swap was done professionally by 1000's of Toyota engineers, it would still not be 100% the same as a genuine ST205.

While nothing is impossible with a huge budget, the ends do not justify the means. If you want an AWD turbo'd car, buy one that was made that way.

This post has been edited by sinner96ST: May 30, 2006 - 11:44 AM

[celicasteve]

To make sure that everyone knows, this isn't something that i would do in my garage, i know someone that does chassis and race cages. now backhalfing a race car with a prebuilt frame and suspension isn't crazy hard. Its just time to make sure everything is perfect! Im sure that it can't be much different. And im positive that someone that does stuff like that for a living can do it!

Now if you have to change the whole floorpan, you might aswell put in a tube chassis and such.

Now this car will be a race car that is streetlegal. it will be a weekend car and for races around my house...some scca and such.

Steve

and also it will have a full welded cage

This post has been edited by celicasteve: May 30, 2006 - 6:07 PM

[burneeed]

11K for the setup might sound right depending on what route you decide to go. Honestly my car would be a great candidate for it if I decide to keep my car and not sell it. I keep on thinking this winter I should try it. I already have the e153 tranny. I could easily get a awd e153 swap that over. I have the front of the car figured out. I keep looking at it when its up on the lift thinking of possibilities and how I would do it. Im not very good at fab but my buddy is who owns a shop http://1st-try.com. He says the driveshaft wouldnt be to hard to do. Just re do the floor pan and pop a drive shaft there. And the last part would be the gas tank/rear end.

Im thinking if it works out....
trade my fwd e153 for a awd e153.. If I cant trade ill always ell it and get a awd one back
already have new spec 3 clutch / fid flywheel...

Custom driveshaft
Floor pan....
Drop tank make a fuel cell in the trunk
I would need all rear suspension / rear end from a gt4.

Im wondering if all rear end parts from a usdm alltrac would work or not?

Im not sure I have to do alittle more research. But if I do decide on keeping my car and I could do some more work on it before winter hits... head work plus I wanted to do a turbo upgrade with an awd swap I could put down some pretty good track #s as well as having a unique car....

Theres no real writeup on it. I have the first part of the car figured out heh.. almost like I have 33% of it figured out and that tranny was A pain to get on the car!!! If someone had a writeup like celimans dad had one I would prolly be more daring. But Im not sure if I would want to go through the headache of doing it.

[celicasteve]

you wouldn't need a floor pan or a custom drive shaft, just use the st205 shaft, and just the trunk pan has to be clearenced.

Steve

[burneeed]

Might be cheeper to go custom with the drive shaft.... not exactly sure yet.

[burneeed]

I dont know if its worth it or not. I would like to talk to celiman and see how he or his dad did it. If I can figure out the floor pan its just the rear end and rear suspension I would have to worry, I should call jarco today and see how much they w ould charge me if they could get all the parts if not them anyone have any suggestions?

[presure2]

celiman did it by choping out all the parts of the '4 he needed and welding them into the chassis.
with a fuel cell.

[celicasteve]

Just see if you can get a rear cut...

Steve

[snapshotgt]

11K for the setup might sound right depending on what route you decide to go. Honestly my car would be a great candidate for it if I decide to keep my car and not sell it. I keep on thinking this winter I should try it. I already have the e153 tranny. I could easily get a awd e153 swap that over. I have the front of the car figured out. I keep looking at it when its up on the lift thinking of possibilities and how I would do it. Im not very good at fab but my buddy is who owns a shop http://1st-try.com. He says the driveshaft wouldnt be to hard to do. Just re do the floor pan and pop a drive shaft there. And the last part would be the gas tank/rear end.

Im thinking if it works out....
trade my fwd e153 for a awd e153.. If I cant trade ill always ell it and get a awd one back
already have new spec 3 clutch / fid flywheel...

Custom driveshaft
Floor pan....
Drop tank make a fuel cell in the trunk
I would need all rear suspension / rear end from a gt4.

Im wondering if all rear end parts from a usdm alltrac would work or not?

Im not sure I have to do alittle more research. But if I do decide on keeping my car and I could do some more work on it before winter hits... head work plus I wanted to do a turbo upgrade with an awd swap I could put down some pretty good track #s as well as having a unique car....

Theres no real writeup on it. I have the first part of the car figured out heh.. almost like I have 33% of it figured out and that tranny was A pain to get on the car!!! If someone had a writeup like celimans dad had one I would prolly be more daring. But Im not sure if I would want to go through the headache of doing it.

Are you not the person that has gone through 3 trannys in a short amount of time? ...figure out those bugs b 4 taking on such a HUGE project!

[burneeed]

Snaps I appreciate that. And I appreciate you trying to help me. But big projects.... I duno if I can handle them or not. I am also the guy who took On Putting in a 3sgte + a e153 tranny myself!!! I dont know if I can handle this.. I might need you to hold my hand while I try this? Maybe you can help me install a 15-25 hp speed chip thats in your car.

[snapshotgt]

Snaps I appreciate that. And I appreciate you trying to help me. But big projects.... I duno if I can handle them or not. I am also the guy who took On Putting in a 3sgte + a e153 tranny myself!!! I dont know if I can handle this.. I might need you to hold my hand while I try this? Maybe you can help me install a 15-25 hp speed chip thats in your car.

Firstly, I was just posting a comment about you solving your tranny issues before you try other bigger things. It is completely logical. And for you to come back with such a smart a** comment. Not cool.

Props for doing your 3sgte and e153 tranny yourself, but that does by no means justify your ability for a AWD conversion. Read this thread over a few times to see what i mean.

oh, and about the hp chip: I'd be glad to help you install it, but you'd get more hp from installing a front mount intercooler on your 3sgte ---> also, the chip does nothing, I’ll be the first to tell you. Just so happens that I was naive and thought it might a long time ago, so I thought I’d give it a shot, we all had those times.

~snapshotgt

edit: I'm not going to reply to any "comeback" post. This thread does not need to be ruined like that.

This post has been edited by snapshotgt: May 31, 2006 - 9:39 PM

[fastcelica20]

[quote name='snapshotgt'


thank you snapshotgt. we need to keep clean. we want other people to learn NOT to learn how to, you know. thanks guys. and thanks everyone for commenting about the AWD. it's very informative.

[jamesyb]

Hey guys

Can't really see the point of going through the expense and time constraits of doing an AWD conversion and turbo conversion. Why not just buy a ST205 GT4 straight out. You know factory is always the way to go! Just my 2 cents.

[celicasteve]

the only legal one that i know of is $16,500, and it needs a clutch.
it is so hard to get one here, then get it legal! sheesh...

Steve

[snapshotgt]

Hey guys

Can't really see the point of going through the expense and time constraits of doing an AWD conversion and turbo conversion. Why not just buy a ST205 GT4 straight out. You know factory is always the way to go! Just my 2 cents.

We did not get any gt4's here in the US, so the people that live here in the US are trying to see how they could fab one...BUT, you guys in Europe have it great! Just go buy a real one!

it is so sad we did not get any here

~snap

[CilverSeliST205]

Did anyone ever attempt to use alltrac drivetrain to do awd conversion? How much harder would it be? Is it even possible?

[presure2]

Did anyone ever attempt to use alltrac drivetrain to do awd conversion? How much harder would it be? Is it even possible?

the 5th gen subframe is narrower than the 6th gen.

[burneeed]

actually hes talking about the one silver gt4 that was imported to the us in florida. I cant believe that guy brought the price down more. I tried to beat a better deal out of him and he wouldnt do it. If that car needed a new clutch no biggy.

[celicasteve]

actually hes talking about the one silver gt4 that was imported to the us in florida. I cant believe that guy brought the price down more. I tried to beat a better deal out of him and he wouldnt do it. If that car needed a new clutch no biggy.

It really isn't a biggie, and it is acutally a good price, but how many others are there for sale in the us that are legal, acutally how many period..i know of two.

another thing, i know someone that has an alltrac that he imported and made it legal, he has atleast $16,000 into it, mostly importing and to get it legalized..plus it wasn't a walk in the park.

Steve

[burneeed]

dude that guy down in florida his car isnt legal. A guy from here in pittsburgh took a look at it and said it doesnt have a legal vin.

[celiman05]

first things first, all this talk about floor pan is driving me crazy.
the tunnel for the shaft already exists in our cars so the driveshaft fits perfectly in there. the only problem i had with the shaft part of the swap was the fabrication for the shaft mounts. they took alot of time to make and figure out. the exhaust can just follow the driveshaft right down the tunnel.

as for the rear end, all i did was just cut out the spare tire well, and fabricated a holder for the fuel cell. you could also just use a piece of sheet metal if you would like to use the st205 fuel tank.

the rear sub frame was a totally different story. the back two mounting brackets on the 205 rear end line up perfectly with the existing holes. mounts just need to be made because the 205 sub frame sits differently in the car. just make sure everything is straight. also i couldnt use the 205 rear sway bar cuz it wouldnt fit, so i had to buy an aftermarket straight one to make evrything fit.

i got very lucky on mine cuz when i bought my front clip, it came with everything that i needed. including full drive shaft, complete rear sub frame, etc. that cost me about $4500.

dont under estimate all of the little things that could possibly be missing cuz that adds up very very fast. i wanna say there had to be at least $1000 in petty little things that i needed.

oh ya, good luck finding rims to fit over the huge breaks that come w/ 205 stuff. i had to have gone through at least 3 sets of rims, shipping back and forth, untill i finally found a set that fit. and i still only have about an 8th of an inch clearance between the rim and the caliper.

the biggest problem that im having now is getting replacment parts for the car. everything has to come from the UK and none of its cheap by any means. if something breaks or if there is a prob with something, im pretty much screwed untill i spend the big money and get the part. anything can go at any time.

all in all it had to have cost me prob about $8000 to finish the swap completely. (if not more).
the swap is not at all easy but it is possible. good luck.
if i think of anything else i'll post it.

[burneeed]

Hey if the floor pan is good without being modified then that makes things a little easier. Still thinking of doing this just not sure yet.

[celicast3sgte]

its not as hard as everyone is saying it is. the majority of people that are saying its hard do not have a gt4 and have no really looked nor attempted the swap. and as for the people that have tried and failed, ask them if they knew what they were getting into to begin with? they most likely didnt.

[celicasteve]

talked to my chassis guy, said no problem! im going with a fuel cell becuase im putting a cage in it.
now ill i need to find is a fiberglass hatch with lexan.....

Steve

[GMan]

> post Jun 2, 2006 - 6:15 PM
> '96 ST Hatchback

U have not updated with AWD ? :-)

> From connecticut

> as for the rear end, all i did was just cut out the spare tire well,
> and fabricated a holder for the fuel cell. you could also just use a piece of sheet metal
> if you would like to use the st205 fuel tank.

No one wants to use an ST205 gas tank, or try a US alltrac one ?
Hard to find, or too expensive ? I guess that is where a rear
clip would be worthwhile ? :-0

> i got very lucky on mine cuz when i bought my front clip,
> it came with everything that i needed.
> that cost me about $4500.

So $4,500 for parts ?

> dont under estimate all of the little things that could possibly be missing
> cuz that adds up very very fast. i wanna say there had to be at least $1000
> in petty little things that i needed.

Yah it helps to be a little pessimistic ?

> oh ya, good luck finding rims to fit over the huge breaks that come w/ 205 stuff. i

The brakes are That big ?

> the biggest problem that im having now is getting replacment parts for the car.
> everything has to come from the UK and none of its cheap by any means.

No luck at US dealers, I have heard some stock them ?
There are several 3rd gen swaps into MR2, so there is demand
for engine parts.

> all in all it had to have cost me prob about $8000 to finish the swap completely.

That is for Just parts ? How much time did you put in ?
Your time is free to you. I am curious what a shop would charge by the hour ? :-(

> (if not more).

Probaby the cost is always More. :-(

> the swap is not at all easy but it is possible. good luck.

I saw your car at the Colt State park meet in RI.
Very nice job. Glad it turned out so well !
I hope More people try and succed with the swap.

Regards;
-------------------

[celiman05]

thanks Gman.

$4,500 was just for the front clip.

the brakes are pretty big. the problem was how far they stuck out from the mounting surface.

as for the time that i put in........i lost track. i was trying to add up all the hours but i lost it about 1/4 of the way into the project. i worked on it every weekend for about, i wanna say 6 or 7 months.

[Punch]

Another 1 I love to se work like this done ....I was gonna do it but i went 5sgte that more than enough for me now. I was gonna go with a st185 & scrap the whole car i was gonna get the car for $1500 running but rusted down (New York) good job guys hope to hear good things!!!!