Dyno, For all you...yeah Options

[snadman]

For all of you people who STILL feel that exhaust, plugs, and intake will add amazing ammounts of horsepower...I'm going to a dyno on the 28th of June. I will make sure to find this thread and post the graphs so you can see my car isn't a supercar with just those mods. I'm just getting kinda sick of people saying their intake's going to add 15HP, because it's not. I'm sick of people saying that exhaust adds 15HP, cuz it doesn't. AND I'm sick of people saying that plugs make so much more of a difference...

-For the intake, I may see a few HP, nothing big though or noticeable.
-Exhaust same as intake...you're actually just freeing up HP you already had with better flow (learned the exact details from Exhaust 101 in Import Tuner)
-Plugs...may add something, but not much. I've seen it where plugs don't do anything, but I've also seen minimal HP increases. I'm guessing it won't be anything and basically upgrading to expensive plugs on an NA Celica isn't going to help much.

**PLEASE don't take my whole plugs rant seriously if you run nitrous or turbo. You guys need good plugs, cold plugs! This is for NA Celica's only!

[KAMiX]

Who has told you their intake will add 15 hp? You have a strange/strong attitude snad!

Anyways, A good exhaust can actually add quite a bit of hp, especially a racing header. We're not talking figures you can write down, but you will definately notice a difference with a decent custom exhaust..

[ghostdog]

snad, I'm convinced you must be talking about some other board. I've found the members here are refreshingly realistic about the lack of gains from simple bolt-ons. have you looked around and seen how many people are undergoing engine swaps or turbo projects?

[snadman]

Yeah, after they've been told umpteen billion frickin times. And yes, a good exhaust can add...horsepower. You start getting too good of flow and you lose backpressure, which means less torque...it's all a compromise. I didn't get a full exhaust system though, I'm just saying catback...it's all mandrel though, so no crush bent like stock would be...which will give me better flow.

I'm glad that the site is turning a bit more realistic, but every now and then we get these people asking "What mods can I get for some easy HP?" and people are still answering...

"Intake, exhaust, plugs, wires...easy 30HP." I just think it's laughable.

Now I'm not just doing the dyno to prove a point, it's for my own good. I want to see what my HP is before my major engine project which includes basically rebuilding my 5SFE and making it a 5SFTE. Most likely a 5g project. Then I will dyno again to see what I gained, do a write up on it yeah. Besides, they are having a special...60 bucks for 3 runs...can't beat that!

[snadman]

Oh yeah, and in Super Street just a couple months ago...I think they were doing a WRX (correct me if I'm wrong please, I hate giving out information that's not 100% positive) and they had it at a 171.1 HP...they added a full exhaust treatment....only got up to 171.8. (I think those were the numbers...I know it was only a .7 HP increase) now tell me if that's economical...they spents goards of money and didn't gain anything that's noticeable in the least.

The problem is, that some of these mods do help other cars considerably, but not our Celica's. Our problem is in the top end. Adding performance camshafts will help us out a lot more than adding exhaust, intake, plugs, and wires. And if you can put the new cams in yourself, it will probably be cheaper than all that other crap.

I'm not saying that the simple mods don't help, because yeah...you want forced induction you should have exhaust, intake, plugs, wires done, but for NA they don't help too much, especially our cars.

[BlackCelicaGT94]

Ok well i know for sure that my exhaust adds 6 hp..not alot but better than none! but i know my cars not super fast! I like looks more than go anyways cuz its more logical!

[HyperDeathKill]

Yea snad I know what your talkin about. One of my ricer friends is convinced that he'll gain horse by putting on a body kit!

Anyway, I did see a supra in Import Tuner that benefited 10 horse from just an exhaust, but you know... that's a supra and they got horse up the wazoo. I hope nobody here expects something like that from their NA engine.

Are you going to dyno after you do each mod? Or do you have all the mods on, already? I can't wait to see the results.

[bonzaisushi]

ya on turbo cars it does alott more than add hp.. allows turbo to spool quicker.... but like someone said a exhaust is almost worthless without a header

[snadman]

Yeah, the night before, I'm going to take off everything...except the exhaust. I'm going to put OEM plugs back in and the factory air intake assembly. Only thing I can't undo is the exhaust (welded on dar). I do one run with just exhaust, the with intake added, then with plugs in...and before each run I will reset the ECU and rev a bit to let it learn again. We'll see what they can do, maybe they'll cut me a deal and let me a fourth run...then I will do the three I mentioned without resetting then a fourth with resetting it with all the mods...just to teach everyone to reset their damned ECUs after they install mods...

Yes, and this Racing Tape I sell at NAPA where I work...it adds 50...guaranteed!

NOT! No offense, but that's dumb...body kit adding horsepower? If anything, it may increase the top speed before your call starts going everywhere....if the body kit is functional that is and creates downforce. That will help so your ride isn't all over the road at super high speeds...but that's about it. It's all for looks.

And yeah man I did see that Supra. That was a good gain. With turbo, you want big exhaust too...and that's what they did. With our NA's...no way.

And to BlackCelicaGT4: How do you know it added 6HP? Not that I don't believe you, but what's your setup? If you added a nice header, then I'm sure you get that. That's great though to get 6...you must have the right combination of parts and sizes of exhaust. My hat is tipped to you.

[HyperDeathKill]

Perhaps it could be six to the factory horse rating.

[snadman]

Funny thing is, the factory never released wheel HP. It's all because that would amke the Celica look like a weak sports car, which basically...sad to say...it is. It would have just a bit over 100 at the wheels right off the line...the 135 for the GT (130 for cali models) is a rated hp at the flywheel.

So yeah, however he measured it...to be sure he gained 6 he'd have to get figures from before...actual figures from his car and then figures right after.

BECAUSE like I said earlier...the Celica loses horsepower from the crank to the wheels...just the way every other car does. The Celica loses a lot, however, in the top end.

This post has been edited by snadman: Jun 12, 2003 - 2:35 AM

[Delta_Phoenix]

Snad, check page 84 of the May 2003 issue of Import Tuner. If you don't want to, then I'll post the figures up. They installed many different intakes on an Acura RSX and got very nice results from them.

Here they are:

Injen Short-Ram: +9.2 HP, +2.9 LB-FT
AEM Cold-Air: +20.7 HP, +5.3 LB-FT (No, that isn't a typo. The RSX got almost 21 HP to the wheels from a CAI.)
AEM Short-Ram: +5.4 HP, +4.9 LB-FT
DC Sports Cold-Air: +19.7 HP, +5.7 LB-FT (Again, not a typo.)
Jackson Racing: +7.8 HP, +4.2 LB-FT
K&N Drop-In: -0.1 HP, 0 LB-FT
K&N Typhoon Short-Ram: +7.4 HP, +3.1 LB-FT
DC Sports Direct-Air Charger: +9.2 HP, +2.4 LB-FT

It lists the temp. difference in various locations but I won't bother with that.

Dyno Data:

Stock: 157.8 HP, 119.9 LB-FT
Stock w/ K&N: 157.7 HP, 119.9 LB-FT
AEM SR: 163.1 HP, 124.8 LB-FT
K&N Typhoon: 165.1 HP, 123.0 LB-FT
Jackson R: 165.5 HP, 124.1 LB-FT
DC Sports SR: 166.9 HP, 122.4 LB-FT
Injen: 166.9 HP, 122.9 LB-FT
DC Sports CAI: 177.4 HP, 125.6 LB-FT
AEM CAI: 178.4 HP, 125.2 LB-FT

So, as you can see, you can't laugh some things off. I know this doesn't really apply to our Celicas, but I was just proving that an intake CAN make a difference. I can't say that I've noticed much more pep to my car since installing a CAI and GReddy exhaust, but I can definitely feel smoother acceleration.

[Mage]

Those numbers seem ridiculously high, though if the stock intake was a styrofoam block they could be reasonable. But, I'd rather see real dyno sheets from individuals than stats from a magazine like "Import Tuner." Intake/exhaust does very, very little for NA engines. Intakes work on the premise of increasing air flow, which they do to a very minor degree, but only so much air can go through the throttle body -passively-...and intakes don't do much to help that. That's the reason why people focus on turbos when they're actually serious about making power, because turbos actually force air through the throttle body.

[snadman]

That was rather pointless lol. I already addressed the issue that you can do things to other that will help them a lot more than they would help our Celica's. For instance what I said about exhaust up there...forced induction cars will benefit more from better flow than our NA Celicas would, or any NA car for that matter. I know the RSX isn't forced induction, but you must look at how the head is designed. It designed to allow a lot more fuel and air to come in than our Celica's which have certain restrictions as to how far they can be pushed. The RSX is a modern marvel in getting the most out of small engines without forced induction. If you get Honda's performance package with it, there are maybe 3 bolt on mods and it adds tremendous horsepower. It's just the way that engine was designed.

BTW, for those of you looking to see how our figures will come out. on Celica.net, they have a DynoGraph forum. Go check there and see the dynograph for the 93 GT with intake, exhaust, plugs, wires, ignition. Only grabbed 102.7 (I think goin off memory cuz I'm too lazy to look) and that has the same engine has our GT's.

[EDIT]As I reread my post, sorry didn't mean to sound like a dick in the first paragraph...I didn't mean it that way at all. I actually thank you for posting some actual stats that do show some cars CAN benefit from these bolt ons a lot.[/EDIT]

This post has been edited by snadman: Jun 12, 2003 - 9:57 AM

[HyperDeathKill]

What doest the GT make stock to the wheels?

[snadman]

Right off the line...a bit over 100. After 80k miles...around 95. Sucks eh?

[Guest_Jason_*]

I REFUSE TO DYNO MY CAR UNTIL IM 4AGZEIFIED! I DONT WANT TO CRY.

[95STCelica]

QUOTE (Jason @ Jun 12, 2003 - 11:31 AM)

I REFUSE TO DYNO MY CAR UNTIL IM 4AGZEIFIED! I DONT WANT TO CRY.

you sure you aren't a woman, you seem to never know what you are doing?

[Inferno]

I'll be interested in viewing your Dyno graphs, snad. I do agree that if you're serious about performance for the Celica, you shouldn't even think about only adding bolt-ons. A swap or turbo is the way to go. When I get my car, I'm not even going to waste money on an intake or exhaust. What's the point when I'll be swapping to the 3S-GTE in a matter of a few years.

[snadman]

Maybe exhaust...just for some noise :-D That was my theory. Besides, they can resuse my exhaust and it's rather big so when I feed this thing with a hair dryer the exhaust will complement it nicely. But true, if you're goign to swap...eh what the hell right? Only thing is, you could probably (for an extra 100 bucks or so) have an exhaust shop weld from the catback your existing exhaust. Only if you want to.

[Milds3vn]

Wow dude you sound a little too worked up about this. Let people think whatever they want man, and maybe some of these things don't add much if any horsepower but they help in other ways. I noticed after installing my Greddy that above about 3500 it pulled a little harder and redlined faster, less restriction will do that and the K&N helped no doubt. These things do help, regarless of what the numbers say. I mean the K&N drop in filter took away .1 hp? The hell is that about? Well Jesus if thats what the sheet says after one run with the mod then it must be gospel! Why are you wasting your money on a dyno anyway? They are completly useless unless your tunning, whatever maybe you want a benchmark to look back on when you have more done...You do one run with the filter and get a number and then another run with the same thing and your prob gunna get slightly different numbers so what your doing isn't very reliable but I'm interested to see how certain things might make differences in our cars. You would have to do like 2 or 3 runs per mod but hey, I don't want to sound negative, maybe thats to late, sorry. The fact is your taking this a bit to personaly, people are stupid in general, if it warms their heart to think that a mufler tip and some stickers add 15hp then who cares let em simmer rice in there hondas. I think the real problem is, people don't know how to fuqing drive anymore, I'm talking in general, especially women, and if you put a cell phone in their hand...

[snadman]

Well man, I totally agree. And yes...I am tuning...the whole thing about proving simple mods dont add much is a side fact...they are fine tuning the ECU they programmed for me. So I figure why not do it all in one all for nothin day...lol. It's for a bunch of purposes, not just to prove bolt ons don't add anything. :-D You gotta read all the posts before u go jumpin to thiongs like saying this is my only reasonf or getting a dyno...it's for my own purposes...my onw personal satisfaction....to tune my ECU...and to show what my car is before big mods take place. But thanks for the input...I will try and see if I get a bunch of runs for cheap.

[HyperDeathKill]

QUOTE (Milds3vn @ Jun 12, 2003 - 8:47 PM)

I think the real problem is, people don't know how to fuqing drive anymore, I'm talking in general, especially women, and if you put a cell phone in their hand...

Geez, how much more sterotypical prejudice can you get?

[snadman]

Yeah, he said I was getting hyped up...lol.

[Milds3vn]

I run parts all day long so I see alot of it, when I'm going somewhere I don't want to screw around and when people drive like they have a bag on their head...who cares about stereotypes, I was half joking anyway, damn people are sensative these days. I can't believe you called me on stereotypes wow that was very PC of you. Everyone just relax and don't take things so seriously...maybe all the idiot drivers are in Pennsylvania.

I did read all the posts but you never specified why you were doing the dyno other than your rage for people that think they are getting big numbers from spark plugs and such. Whatever man, no worries, don't take anything I say personally...to each their own!

This post has been edited by Milds3vn: Jun 13, 2003 - 6:41 PM

[snadman]

QUOTE (snadman @ Jun 11, 2003 - 9:47 AM)

Now I'm not just doing the dyno to prove a point, it's for my own good. I want to see what my HP is before my major engine project which includes basically rebuilding my 5SFE and making it a 5SFTE. Most likely a 5g project. Then I will dyno again to see what I gained, do a write up on it yeah. Besides, they are having a special...60 bucks for 3 runs...can't beat that!

LOL, actually I did...like the 4th or 5th post. :-D

[Milds3vn]

Haha sorry man Im blind but hey I just found this killer site with a 700hp Turbo BMW M3 which also gives a great explanation of exactly why exhaust and headers reduce back pressure which we know but I never really knew exactly what the back pressure was, its not really just the exhaust being held back like I used to think. I thought someone might be interested. http://www.da-motorsport.com/teknik/makale.../makale3_en.htm

[snadman]

Nah, it's actually to relive synnchronization fo the exhaust flowing out of the actual block. It's like the ocean...the water gets really choppy when the tide is higher because as one waves is crashing into the shore another one comes right after and hits it...which creates a sucking backflow. When the tide is low (an analogy to good flowing header[s]) as each wave comes in the other smoothly comes along in a synchronized pace which creates less choppy water...basically less choppy exhaust. I kinda sorta stole that analogy form the import Tuner article, but yeah that's how it works. Now I will go check out that article.

Good article! Thanks for the post! :-D

This post has been edited by snadman: Jun 14, 2003 - 1:29 AM

[94celicaguy]

snad i am still trying to figure out why you got a programmable ecu which i know arent cheap for the small and minor mods that you have listed. i dont have a programmable ecu and i am boostin. oh well, let me know when you figure it out

[Mage]

QUOTE (Jason @ Jun 12, 2003 - 10:31 AM)

I REFUSE TO DYNO MY CAR UNTIL IM 4AGZEIFIED! I DONT WANT TO CRY.

I thought you decided to go 3sgte and then decided to buy another car altogether...s2000 I think?

[snadman]

Well, figure might as well have it now since I'm either gonna boost or 3sgte. It's not too bad of price...altho that won't be specifically discussed since I do get a lot cheaper than other people would (good friends with the owner)...so yeah. Why not take advantage of every little bit of HP you can get?

[celicaboy95]

QUOTE (snadman @ Jun 11, 2003 - 7:56 PM)

"I will do the three I mentioned without resetting then a fourth with resetting it with all the mods...just to teach everyone to reset their damned ECUs after they install mods..."

How do you reset your ECU?

[HyperDeathKill]

Disconnect the positive terminal to your battery.

[snadman]

Yeah that...there's about a zillion ways to do it. Disconnect the ECU fuses...battery...whatever floats ur boat I spose.

[HyperDeathKill]

Sooo... wheres the dyno!??! C'mon c'mon c'mon I'm itchin for some facts.

[edo17982]

We're waiting for dyno results!!!