Six Speed in a 6GC Options

[Fastbird]

I've heard talk of people thinking about it but have never seen any factual attempts. These things need a sixth gear.

I was pondering, and it probably wouldn't be toooooooo terribly difficult to have a bell housing adapter made for something like a 7th gen and then have a custom input shaft in a longer length made.

Are there any other ideas floating around out there?

[WH95TE]

Would be neat.

[dustinkemp]

i think you volunteered yourself lol

nah but it would be cool

[Kwanza26]

yeah... but gearing would be very poor for the 5SFE. What's your reasoning behind the 6gc needing more gears?

As for your suggestion... it is possible, and none too difficult to make a custom bellhousing (removing the 7gc bellhousing) to mate to a 5SFE. The 7AFE can probably use its current bellhousing over the C160 gearset, which is very very similar to the AE111's C60.

[gt_driFFter]

I don't know if it makes a different, but he doesn't have a 5sfe, he has a 3sgte. I've heard the 7th gen tranny's are actually kind of weak.

[Fastbird]

My reasoning is that on the highway I can't stand trying to maintain 80 MPH whilst turning 4000 RPM. If I could get an overdrive and cut that down some to the 2500 range, these things would be PERFECT on the highway.

What does toyota make in a transaxle configuration with a six speed??

[Kwanza26]

My reasoning is that on the highway I can't stand trying to maintain 80 MPH whilst turning 4000 RPM. If I could get an overdrive and cut that down some to the 2500 range, these things would be PERFECT on the highway.

What does toyota make in a transaxle configuration with a six speed??

Toyota makes the C60/C160 and that's it. Regardless of having 6 gears or not... the C160/C60 final drive and gearing is very short and you'll still be at around 3500 rpms at 80mph in 6th gear... similar to what we are currently.

And no... it doesn't really make a big difference if he has a 3SGTE or not... in fact, the bigger the torque, the worse a short gear'ed tranny would be for it acceleration-wise. Pushing acceleration towards the top rpms negates that fat torque-band...

[lagos]

My reasoning is that on the highway I can't stand trying to maintain 80 MPH whilst turning 4000 RPM

4grand is where all the magic happens on the higway. your tvis plates open up and the car comes alive! if anything i think the gearing is great on the highway, because you are alwasy in your power band.


you can alwasy change over to the mr2 tranny. it has taller gearing and lsd. that would seem like a more logical upgrade. i dont think i would trust the 7th gen tranny. you might also run into a lot of dumb issues like trying to find motor mounts that would work correctly or axels, that would make it more troubble then its worth.

[playr158]

you don't need 6 gears...
we need taller gears...which all you need is someone to design a set of gears that you can swap out in your existing tranny...not a new one

the celica wasn't made to have the amount of power we are swapping into or for great highway cruising....its downfall is short gears

if someone could get a taller set of gears made that would be better leave 1st gear alone but make 2-5 taller..(my jetta is geared taller and i love it) cruising at 70mph at 3,000rpm is much better then the celica's 3,500 or so

my personal goal is to road coarse the celica once i finish so getting 2nd gear to reach almost 75mph at rediline, 3rd to reach about 100 @ redline, 4th about 140 and 5th about 180 would be great

This post has been edited by playr158: Aug 12, 2006 - 9:56 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

Using the 7th gen GTS tranny would pretty much be the only option, with a custom bellhousing, mounts, and axles. It would probably hold up under 250whp just fine, but as mentioned, the gearing is even shorter in the 6-speed than the 5-speed. The only option there would be to somehow increase the final drive, either with a custom gearset, or larger diameter tires....

-Doc

[j0e_p3t]

hasn't anyone tried swapping a 6 speed blacktop 4age?

[burneeed]

theres a guy in ... I think hes somewhere in europe who modifies their e153 to make it a 6 speed... but honestly I can only imagine How much money it would cost and shipping and what not... Im not real familiar with the topic....

But its been discused many times.. theres no 6spd trans to match up with a s series motor to work.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Yeah, our cars really need a 6th gear or a much longer final drive....Unless you want to keep your engine at full hoot on a long trip at speed its going to get really old. Theres been countless times when I drive my car on the highway that I wish at around 80 I could shift into a 6th gear and be doing about 80mph at 3k or so.

Also consider this....When youre cruising at 4k RPMs theres so much unneccesary friction that you'll probably comsume more oil, and the second you lift off the throttle it becomes massive ammounts of vacuum that'll suck oil the PCV and such, not to mention the higher temps at cruising speeds. I never liked it about my GT, but unfortunately the only fixes would be VERY expensive.

The best solution is probably E153 from a Camry, MR2, or Solara. It's OEM and affordable, and is probably as good as we can get to having a cost-efficient transmission that is good for cruising on the highway. If we could get a transmission that was custom geared though, that would be sick.....Theres places that can do such work but it'll cost a ton of money.

[DEAMON]

how much money and who woudl make it

the 7th gen trany out of the GTS would fit a 7AFE but there might be problems with the hubs & drive shaft

[hitcachi]

Best solution and fastest way to a 6 speed celica is.... take out the 3S and swap in teh 2ZZ engine and tranny. The Doc knows how. There was a huge ass debate thread on this a while back.

[playr158]

like i already said someone needs to take the OEM gear ratio #s outta an E153 or S54 (both would be nice) and start talking to a shop that cuts gears..and discuss about making LONGER gear ratios..in theory it should be a bolt in application and all you need to do is swap out your gears in the existing bell housing (yes this has been done before)
i'm not sure if you could fit a 6th gear...but lengthening gears 2-5 is doable probably at the cost of a few hundred dollars

[o0black0o]

My reasoning is that on the highway I can't stand trying to maintain 80 MPH whilst turning 4000 RPM. If I could get an overdrive and cut that down some to the 2500 range, these things would be PERFECT on the highway.

What does toyota make in a transaxle configuration with a six speed??

My Auto ST has OD. I hit 80 and im runnig around 4k I belive. I don't remeber off the top of my head. I know your talking about standard though.

[Fastbird]

Does anyone have the gear ratios and final drive ratios of the 5S-FE 5 Speed and the E153 transmissions handy for comparison??

[celicaST]

Does anyone have the gear ratios and final drive ratios of the 5S-FE 5 Speed and the E153 transmissions handy for comparison??

here you go,

s54: 3.285, 1.960, 1.322, 1.028, 0.820 / FD: 3.944, 4.176
e153: 3.230, 1.913, 1.258, 0.918, 0.731 / FD: 3.933, 4.285

the final drive ratio differed based on application, the bold are 6gc (i think) and mr2 sw20 turbo.

This post has been edited by celicaST: Aug 15, 2006 - 9:54 AM

[x_itchy_b_x]

id buy a longer finally gear. 80mph at 4k sucks when trying to cruise not race. being in a power band is one thing reving the crap out of your motor and sucking down gas is another.

[Kadett]

Does anyone have the gear ratios and final drive ratios of the 5S-FE 5 Speed and the E153 transmissions handy for comparison??

here you go,

s54: 3.285, 1.960, 1.322, 1.028, 0.820 / FD: 3.944, 4.176
e153: 3.230, 1.913, 1.258, 0.918, 0.731 / FD: 3.933, 4.285

the final drive ratio differed based on application, the bold are 6gc (i think) and mr2 sw20 turbo.

US spec GT have the 4.176 Final Drive
EU/JDM spec GT (3S-GE) have the 3.944 Final Drive.

The 7th gen gearbox is really weak and cant sustain to much horsepower. Going to 250 bhp is already pushing it. Getting a LSD + Radials with 250 bhp = bye bye tranny.

With my car I drive 75 mph @ 3200-3300 rpm.
On the 7th gen it would be 2800 rpm. Friend of mine got one.

For gas consumption it would be benifitial but in terms of power you would be better of with the GT or MR2T tranny. Best option would be the GT4 gearbox converted to 2WD but I only know of 2-3 cases that have succesfully done this.

Theorotical top speed of my car with a 225/40/18 tyre would be 160-163 mph. I speed that I will never reach or want to reach with my Celica because its not meant for it (2wd plateau, different weight balance etc etc)

[burneeed]

like i already said someone needs to take the OEM gear ratio #s outta an E153 or S54 (both would be nice) and start talking to a shop that cuts gears..and discuss about making LONGER gear ratios..in theory it should be a bolt in application and all you need to do is swap out your gears in the existing bell housing (yes this has been done before)
i'm not sure if you could fit a 6th gear...but lengthening gears 2-5 is doable probably at the cost of a few hundred dollars

man whata mess that would be honestly....

It would be nice if they made the s series trans in a 6th gear. The damn gearing is so short a 3sgte swapped celica with a s trans doesnt make it real good economy wise when your crusing around on the highway at 4k rpms.. compares to when I swapped he e153 I was at 65mph in 2500-2700 rpms

[dutchboy]

Could you put the e153 5th gear in the ST's C52 tranny or would that cause problems with the synchro?

Would you need to make a custom synhro?

Would love to get the revs down for highway driving.

You may be able to tell that I don't know a lot, just what I want to do

[mandrek]

im quite curiouse about this too.. is it not posible to just swap out the fith gear??

[frosty]

like i already said someone needs to take the OEM gear ratio #s outta an E153 or S54 (both would be nice) and start talking to a shop that cuts gears..and discuss about making LONGER gear ratios..in theory it should be a bolt in application and all you need to do is swap out your gears in the existing bell housing (yes this has been done before)
i'm not sure if you could fit a 6th gear...but lengthening gears 2-5 is doable probably at the cost of a few hundred dollars

The thought of a 6th gear is more for fun, but if I could have gears 2-5 lengthened then I would be content!

[twitchh17]

like i already said someone needs to take the OEM gear ratio #s outta an E153 or S54 (both would be nice) and start talking to a shop that cuts gears..and discuss about making LONGER gear ratios..in theory it should be a bolt in application and all you need to do is swap out your gears in the existing bell housing (yes this has been done before)
i'm not sure if you could fit a 6th gear...but lengthening gears 2-5 is doable probably at the cost of a few hundred dollars

The thought of a 6th gear is more for fun, but if I could have gears 2-5 lengthened then I would be content!

frosty your hairs crazy! i like your hood too

This post has been edited by twitchh17: Oct 16, 2007 - 7:09 PM

[dutchboy]

Could you put the e153 5th gear in the ST's C52 tranny or would that cause problems with the synchro?

Would you need to make a custom synhro?

Would love to get the revs down for highway driving.

You may be able to tell that I don't know a lot, just what I want to do

Anybody know if you would need a custom synchro if you changed 5th gear?

Is the shaft the same size on c52 and e153?

What about .706 4th gear from the GT Auto transmission? Could this be used for 5th gear in a manual?

Any OEM toyota 5th gears that come under the .713 e153 5th, or .706 GT Auto 4th gear?

The e153 gear would drop the RPMs by 375, which is a good start, a 600 RPM drop would be ideal (engine gets loud after 2800 RPM).


The ST has so much potential for gas mileage, it's just hampered by the gearing (which I believe was designed for Japanese highways, with a 60MPH speed limit).

I am also interested in ride comfort, the engine gets so loud at highway speeds (sometimes I'll wear earplugs!) Would like to improve this factor as well. May be solved by going back to stock airbox w/ the lower resonator box reinstalled.

[richee3]

Man, a 6 speed would be crazy... I'd love to have one. I kinda tend to agree with everyone else on here though, that I'd rather just have all my gears lengthened. INCLUDING 1st. 1st has good acceleration, but it's too short. Has anybody else noticed that, on a GT that first gear is gone before you ever get a chance to get anywhere? Oh well. I'm eventually going to put a 3S-GE BEAMS in my car, after I get some money. I'm leaving everything alone until I get that. Can anybody tell me how the gearing on that is, if I'll be doing any better than my 5S?

[Daftboy]

I believe that the blacktop 4age 6 speed fits right up to the 7afe...only thing I heard though is that tranny is like glass

[delusionz]

i can only think of trying bigger wheels and a speedometer corrector...

but i'd say the 6 speed in those sort of cars are designed to bring the gears in between first and final gear closer together to aid street acceleration (drivability) of torqueless motors and wont bring your cruising revs down, instead it'll give u a 5th gear which feels like ur old 4th gear.

my flatmates bz-r levin revs anywhere between 1 and 2 thou RPM higher than my car does thru its 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gears at street driving speeds but then it's 6th gear brings its revs down to match my 5th gear, eg 3k and a bit at 100 kph.

[presure2]

e135 FTMFBBQ win in the celica, with a swap.
100+MPH in 3rd gear, and and a highway cruising rpm of ~3000rpm is where its AT.
6 speed would be a waste of time and money.

[3SGTE-auto]

As some of you may or may not know, I plan to mate the auto trans U660E to my 3S-GTE. Yes, it DOES bolt up with the current bell housing. Unfortuately it's Auto, but I hear that it can handle the torque and can shift fast.

After the final drive ratios are factored in, here are the gear ratios for the U660E vs S54,

U660E: 1st 12.16 2nd 7.00 3rd 5.23 4th 3.68 5th 2.63 6th 2.24
S54: 1st 13.72 2nd 8.18 3rd 5.52 4th 4.29 5th 3.42

Would be great to go on the freeway at around 2000RPM...

[playr158]

and how do you plan on controlling said tranny

[devilsden97]

^Aussie magic ofcourse....kinda like pix dust. but only sold in Australia

the ue6 etc auto tranny is out of what? (i see u showed 6 gear ratios on an auto)

edit: ^'07 camry....i want proof it mates. because im calling bologna on this whole "it mates" comment

This post has been edited by devilsden97: Oct 7, 2008 - 9:01 AM

[reko]

And here comes the solution

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For more enjoyable sports driving experience, first and second gear ratios have been brought closer to third gear, with the fourth and fifth gear ratio closer to third gear.

Gear Ratios are as follows:

First Gear: 3.231 (OEM 3.384) SHORTER

Second Gear: 2.235 (OEM 1.913) LONGER

Third Gear: 1.667 (OEM 1.258) LONGER

Fourth Gear: 1.250 (4th OEM 0.918) LONGER

Fifth Gear: 0.929 (5th OEM 0.731) LONGER

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This post has been edited by reko: Oct 7, 2008 - 9:23 AM

[Redline08]

Now Only : USD 2969.77

wow

[azian_advanced]

i'm surprised C-ONE isn't bankrupt yet... lol

[GriffGirl]

Some day I will have the blacktop w/the 6 speed tranny swapped into my car. It's my long term plan... sigh...

[Dr_Tweak]

Actually the idea of running larger tires would be the easiest way to do it. With the downside that you increase the overall height of the vehicle, and therefore the center of gravity.

and how do you plan on controlling said tranny

We carry the PCS standalone transmission controller, he could use that. They work really nice, plus they all kinds of cool features, like you can add in paddle shifters, have different shift maps that you can swap between, control the shift harshness based on various factors, etc.

-Doc

[3SGTE-auto]

Hi all,

Reco's post regarding the C-ONE is not what I had in mind. The C-ONE conversion for the E153 or E154F will only bring the gear ratios closer together, which is good for racing purposes to keep your RPM in the power-band between gears, but at top gear your RPM will be higher than before the upgrade.

I currently have an A140E mated to my 3S-GTE. It's not known for it's strength, so I've had to set my shiftpoints to occur below 5000RPM on full throttle.

Yes, i purchased a PCS controller to control my transmission. it cost me almost a grand, so it's a bit more than I like. In theory the controller could also control a U660E.

The U660E is from Japan, and has been put in the late model Toyota Aurion and Lexus ES350 here in Australia.

OK, i am "pretty sure" U660E bolts up to the 3S-GTE:

A 3.5 litre 2GR-FE mates to both the U660E in the Aurion and the U151F in the new Highlander (Kluger).
The U151F will mate to the 2GR-FE as well as the 3.3 Litre 3MZ-FE in the old Highlander.
The 3MZ-FE mates to both the U151F and also to the A541E in the Camry.
The A541E is interchangable with the E153.

It is therefore highly likely that the 3SGTE will mate to the U660E. My main concern is actually whether we can create/aquire adequate brackets and mounts to support the trans in the celica engine bay, and also whether the transmission will actually have room to fit inside.

Actually the idea of running larger tires would be the easiest way to do it. With the downside that you increase the overall height of the vehicle, and therefore the center of gravity.

and how do you plan on controlling said tranny

We carry the PCS standalone transmission controller, he could use that. They work really nice, plus they all kinds of cool features, like you can add in paddle shifters, have different shift maps that you can swap between, control the shift harshness based on various factors, etc.

-Doc

[99GT]

The U660E is from Japan, and has been put in the late model Toyota Aurion and Lexus ES350 here in Australia.

OK, i am "pretty sure" U660E bolts up to the 3S-GTE:

A 3.5 litre 2GR-FE mates to both the U660E in the Aurion and the U151F in the new Highlander (Kluger).
The U151F will mate to the 2GR-FE as well as the 3.3 Litre 3MZ-FE in the old Highlander.
The 3MZ-FE mates to both the U151F and also to the A541E in the Camry.
The A541E is interchangable with the E153.

It is therefore highly likely that the 3SGTE will mate to the U660E. My main concern is actually whether we can create/aquire adequate brackets and mounts to support the trans in the celica engine bay, and also whether the transmission will actually have room to fit inside.

IF this work, this will be awesome.

[CPleasure]

Thought I'd bring this sucker back =]

was anyone able to make the gears longer on the e153 or s54 like was previous said?

[pittfirefighter]

who needs longer gears in the e153!?!? i hit 110 m/h in 3rd gear! i cruise around at 3000 rpm in fifth going 90+... please EXPLAIN!?

[playr158]

^110 mph is sloow :shhhhhhh:

[presure2]

^110 mph is sloow :shhhhhhh:

in a celica, dan..not a bike..lol
105+mph in 3rd gear, in a celica, is quite fast. trust me, ask jim.

[playr158]

hey my celica rocked 110mph




..down hill, with a tail wind and a girl on her tricycle pushing

This post has been edited by playr158: May 5, 2009 - 9:30 AM

[pittfirefighter]

still didn't answer my question.. lol i wasn't trying to boast... just trying to figure out why people are calling for longer gears in an e153...

[Kwanza26]

still didn't answer my question.. lol i wasn't trying to boast... just trying to figure out why people are calling for longer gears in an e153...

Longer gears utilize engine torque better for acceleration... shorter gears utilize horsepower and engine speed. If you have an abundance of low-mid range torque, longer gears will keep you in your power band longer.

Anyway... yeah... The 2010 camrys are set to have a 6 speed manual and auto on the 4 banger... which is the AZ engine family... which came with a variant of the E seires trans if I remember correctly. A new possibility for the S series people perhaps?

This post has been edited by Kwanza26: May 6, 2009 - 12:13 PM

[Fastbird]

still didn't answer my question.. lol i wasn't trying to boast... just trying to figure out why people are calling for longer gears in an e153...

Longer gears utilize engine torque better for acceleration... shorter gears utilize horsepower and engine speed. If you have an abundance of low-mid range torque, longer gears will keep you in your power band longer.

I think your thinking is a little backwards there. Gearing has nothing to do with HP. The reason gearing affects acceleration is because of the torque multiplication effect they have by keeping the car in the powerband. Typically you'll find that the shorter the gearing the better the acceleration. This holds especially true for high revving vehicles because you NEED to be higher in the RPM's to effectively utilize your power. On the other side, a vehicle that's got an abundance of power will typically be able to use a lower gear ratio because it's depending on output to move the vehicle and doesn't need to torque multiplication crutch to get it moving.

Case in point, the 6GC. Stock, it needs the gear ratios found in the 5 speed to get it moving quickly. However, with a 3S-GTE swap, this becomes a hinderance because you end up with a higher torque multiplication factor, thus can pretty much at will break the tires free as well as if you do manage to keep traction, you scream straight through your powerband and have to find another gear.

This post has been edited by Fastbird: May 6, 2009 - 12:44 PM

[alltracman78]

Anyway... yeah... The 2010 camrys are set to have a 6 speed manual and auto on the 4 banger... which is the AZ engine family... which came with a variant of the E seires trans if I remember correctly. A new possibility for the S series people perhaps?

No, the AZ has a totally different bolt pattern for the bell housing.
The internals may be similar, and work, but the transmission itself will need a custom bell housing or an adapter to work.

[92-gt]

hey my celica rocked 110mph




..down hill, with a tail wind and a girl on her tricycle pushing

I just laughed so hard!!!!!

I have heard a lot of people ask about using the 6sp out of the 7th gens for their "s" series engines. I have always been told that it is not really worth the hassel at all.

Now using it with an "a" series engine I heard was possible, but there would be some modification needed.

[Draku]

I had a lot of fun with my old camry 1991 se 5 speed manual, so i'm thinking about a tranny swap for a celica 1994 gt-s. I'm looking to drop my fifth gear rpm.
but i dont know the gear ratio difference and the model #, can you help me on this? and is it a good idea? and will it fit?

This post has been edited by Draku: May 8, 2009 - 1:30 AM

[terbear4god4life]

i hit 120..... and woulda keep going if i had balls