Proper suspension set-up Options

[hitcachi]

Well all my posting and talking to jdg and boosted on the autocross thread has me really going! My current set-up is as stands: 3 point front strut bar, 2 point rear strut bar. Front and rear Suspension techniques sway bars. Intrax lowering springs. JIC lower frame brace in the mail. and KYB GR-2's pending this question. I have a sport option GT. Should i replace the sealed struts with new ones (yes im willing to pay) or go source some other struts and install gr-2's? Also tires are being taking care of as well so thats no big thing. I need some more advice on what to do about the shocks though. Thanks!

[DeW_H0e_GT]

i have the same setup except for the springs.....yes...shocks is a must...kyb's are jus a oem replacement...if u could, go with koni's....

would u think of doing the fender braces?.....i wanted to but its too DAMN expensive....

[playr158]

get konis if your serious about autox the right way....you'll need the adjustment....invest in some camber plates from cusco http://www.japanparts.com/ (hint look under the ST205 it will fit)

wat size tires and wheels are you using..that makes a drastic affect

and for the fender braces...they are easy to make...long as you know someone with a welder they can be made for about 20$

[boosted_K2]

#1 thing to do is once your suspension is solid and its at a place where you plan to leave it for a while is get a custom alignment.

[Tech9ine]

I wish I had bought these bad boys instead of my GR-2s
http://www.bilstein.com/mistore/ymm_produc...oreYMM=storeYMM

[playr158]

I wish I had bought these bad boys instead of my GR-2s
http://www.bilstein.com/mistore/ymm_produc...oreYMM=storeYMM

yes but those arn't adjustable...to properly setup the car for autox he's going to need adjustable ones

[hitcachi]

get konis if your serious about autox the right way....you'll need the adjustment....invest in some camber plates from cusco http://www.japanparts.com/ (hint look under the ST205 it will fit)

wat size tires and wheels are you using..that makes a drastic affect

and for the fender braces...they are easy to make...long as you know someone with a welder they can be made for about 20$

Thanks dan for all the info. Honestly, i havent done much research into the koni's, but thats why i posted this. The camber plates i might hold off on for now. What sucks is i gotta go source some damn non sealed struts first. I can probably get some fender braces made by my local muffler shop. I know the guy pretty well.
I going to keep my 16 in. GTS wheels on and just put a wide ass tire on them. I would like to put on something bigger like.....a 17 but the intrax springs were a huge drop.

#1 thing to do is once your suspension is solid and its at a place where you plan to leave it for a while is get a custom alignment.

Can you explain a little more what you mean by a custom alignment. I was going to take it to a shop that specializes (i cant spell right now, please excuse) in suspension work. Little place called Inline Suspension. But i guess im not sure what your talking about.

This post has been edited by hitcachi: Aug 24, 2006 - 12:22 PM

[boosted_K2]

if you are going ot autocross it you DONT want the factory spec alignment, you will want something more agressive. It all comes down to how much you want to sacrifice to gain. the more agressive you go the more your tires are going to wear, the more conservative you go the less it will want to react.

if you dont care about tire wear, you will want a healthy ammount of camber, toe out the front, and just slightly toe in in the rear (maybe even neutral). however if you still plan to drive it daily on the streets you will want to go a bit more conservative, a little less front toe out and a little more rear toe in (makes the car more stable for highway driving), you may also want a little less camber, since most daily driving is done with the vehicle settled the inside shoulders of the tire wont wear as bad.

i spent a few minutes creating an excel sheet calculating my toe setting then i spent all morning deciding how i want to get my alignment done this afternoon hehe

[jdg371]

When I start collection suspension parts im bringing my car to an alignment shop 2hours(Suffolk) away from me cause theres a Autox guy that does it..

Im using all stock suspension parts for 1 more season so I can "feel" what my car lacks. the biggest one is the ginormous bodyroll.. (see pics in OT "Autocross")

whats the rating on those Intrax? All I know is that Stechs (SpongeTech)= bad rep in autox.. Ive seen many civics with them rub fender all day.

Also the more "mods" you the higher your class would be.. Im going to try for STS when my car is all "modded" up..

[LewFX]

if you want the whole strut from kyb then order the whole strut and not the inserts. i like my bilsteins btw.

This post has been edited by LewFX: Aug 24, 2006 - 2:35 PM

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

I've got some pretty extreme camber. I don't know how it got that way. When I got it alinged, I told my buddy to give me a little negative camber for autoX and solo2. You can tell the tires lean in just buy looking at it from in front or behind. The back is worse though. It's actually okay for street use. I run 90 on the highway every now and then, and it doesn't get unstable. And the tires haven't worn much. We'll see how it goes with that though.

Also, as anyone ever tried drilling the stock shocks to get the oil out, then replacing it with motorcycle shock oil? I've heard of doing this with some different kinds. They say it's risky if you don't get all the old out or the right amount back in. I'm just wondering if there are many problems with that.

Last thing, we need to get more on the suspension set-up sticky. I want to know what are the best springs to use for my autoX and solo2 careers.

[hitcachi]

Last thing, we need to get more on the suspension set-up sticky. I want to know what are the best springs to use for my autoX and solo2 careers.

OMGFEHIOCNEHGFOHERGVNSKLJVNOER!!!! I couldnt agree with you more! I learned a long time ago that my celica was too slow to d*ick with right now, so i have been dumping money into the suspension. Bulldog, what size tires do you have? Shocks are my main concern, granted there isnt too many options out there but... i was thinkin about some tokico blues? Any input on these or any other shocks would be awesome. Dan, where are you!!

[jdg371]

you want adjustment for motorsport! haha

How bout getting shortened struts and use MR2 inserts? Thats the way in going to do it..

[andrewb0x29a]

Honestly, i havent done much research into the koni's, but thats why i posted this. The camber plates i might hold off on for now. What sucks is i gotta go source some damn non sealed struts first.

No need to get non-sealed struts. The Konis for the rear are designed to use the existing sealed strut body in the rear. You just have to cut off the top of the strut and add a bolt hole to the bottom. Once I had all the necessary tools it took about an hour per strut. Fronts were faster since they already take inserts. If you want to spend even more $$$ then you can have Koni modify the shocks to make them double adjustable and modify the valving to suit your needs.

Can you explain a little more what you mean by a custom alignment. I was going to take it to a shop that specializes (i cant spell right now, please excuse) in suspension work. Little place called Inline Suspension. But i guess im not sure what your talking about.

I am running -2.5 degrees of camber on the front wheels. For a normal alignment most shops will just adjust the toe. Since camber is not adjustable on our cars you will need to install camber plates or camber bolts. Camber plates are much easier to work with. I would have done them but they aren't allowed for stock autoX classes. I installed the crash bolts instead. I would recommend going to a place that does autoX alignments. I went to a normal shop and had to explain to the mechanic how to adjust the camber. Once he understood what needed to be done he did a decent job but it was annoying that I had to tell him how to do it.

[hitcachi]

I am running -2.5 degrees of camber on the front wheels. For a normal alignment most shops will just adjust the toe. Since camber is not adjustable on our cars you will need to install camber plates or camber bolts. Camber plates are much easier to work with. I would have done them but they aren't allowed for stock autoX classes. I installed the crash bolts instead. I would recommend going to a place that does autoX alignments. I went to a normal shop and had to explain to the mechanic how to adjust the camber. Once he understood what needed to be done he did a decent job but it was annoying that I had to tell him how to do it.

so with you -2.5 degrees of front camber, you tires wear faster, but you have....less understeer? What is it getting you? And I've always been under the impression that celicas have slightly ajustable camber from the factory..., also explain more about the custom work with the rear struts? Sorry for the questions, i just believe that these cars have alot of potential through the suspension.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

Bulldog, what size tires do you have?

I'm running stock size, the 205/55/15. I'm thinking about getting 215/50/15's for it, but I'm a little concerned with the rules in solo2. I have to read the book through again to make sure I can do that. I don't think it is legal. It's the same reason I'm not hesitant about putting EMS on my car. I'll be put into a class that I am not competitive in.

[andrewb0x29a]

so with you -2.5 degrees of front camber, you tires wear faster, but you have....less understeer? What is it getting you? And I've always been under the impression that celicas have slightly ajustable camber from the factory...,

For street use the inside edge of the tire should wear faster but I have noticed anything significant yet. For autocrossing it actually results in less wear (the outside edges are what get all the abuse). As far as driving goes it gives quicker turn in and allows me to keep on the power more through turns. I reran a practice course after I did the shocks and the alignment. With the changes I got rid of braking completely for some turns and some hard braking maneuvers became light taps. Since our cars are underpowered anything that can be done to avoid slowing down helps.

also explain more about the custom work with the rear struts? Sorry for the questions, i just believe that these cars have alot of potential through the suspension.

Assuming you have the rear shocks removed already, you start the installation by turning the strut body upside down and finding the center of the bottom plate. You then use a punch to make an indent in the center and drill a small (1/16" or so) hole in the bottom. This relieves the pressure on the shock and also serves as a starting point for the bolt hole later.

Then, using a hacksaw or cutoff tool you cut the top ~1 inch from the strut body (where the rod goes in). You just have to cut about 1/4" inch in all the way around. I put it in a vise and used an air cutoff tool. Most of the time was spent waiting for my small compressor to build up pressure so I could resume cutting.

With the top of the shock cut off you them dump all the internals into the trash. Using a file you remove and burrs from the cut-off section of the strut body. Finally, you drill out the hole on the bottom of the strut using a larger drill bit. I don't remember the size but it was > 1/4".

Now you get to install the Koni into the strut. You insert the strut into the body and hammer it into place using a rubber mallet. Once it is far enough in you put the bolt through the bottom of the strut tube and tighten it down. Now you just reverse the steps for removing the strut.

These aren't the best instructions and I should have taken pictures while doing it but I started on a Wed night and had to have it done for a Sat autoX...

[hitcachi]

hmmm, i might have to try it as a cheaper alternative..... but when you put a bolt in through the drilled hole, you're cutting new threads, so when you have to take it out teh next time, and put it back in, the bolt isnt going to seat right? besides that, how do you like your koni's? are they worth the price?

[andrewb0x29a]

hmmm, i might have to try it as a cheaper alternative..... but when you put a bolt in through the drilled hole, you're cutting new threads, so when you have to take it out teh next time, and put it back in, the bolt isnt going to seat right? besides that, how do you like your koni's? are they worth the price?

No, the bolt goes through the hole in the strut body and threads into the end of the Koni insert. No cutting of threads. I really like the Konis for autocrossing. I am running them fairly soft; a 1/2 turn up from full soft on the front and a 1/4 turn up on the rear. However, even with this setting they are noticably stiffer on bumpy roads.

I would do them again on an autocross car but would probably consider a different option if it was only a street car. If you are prepping your car for autocross the best thing to do is identify all of the allowed modifications and sort them in order of performance/$. Since I am running stock class I did my upgrades in the following order:

0) CG-lock ($??)
1) R-compound tires and light wheels ($550 for wheels + $125 for 6 used tires)
2) Suspension Technique front sway bar (~$125(?))
3) Konis ($650)
4) Crash Bolts (~$12 + $200 for custom alignment)
5) K&N Air Filter

I did the sway bar almost immediately after doing the R-compounds because with the grippier tires I was getting a lot more body roll (rear inside wheel ~12" off the ground). The sway bar helped with that and was cheaper (and easier to install) than the Konis. Also, it took almost 8 weeks to get my Konis after I ordered them from TireRack.

If you are running in a different class you will have a different set of mods and may want to do them in a different order. Do you have a list of everything you want to do?

[boosted_K2]

yikes $200 for a custom alignment, that was expensive.... especially if you plan on trialing various setups.

[hitcachi]

i want to get some decent shocks in but koni's are kinda out of my price range. (broke ass college kid), so for now im lookin at blistiens possibly and i want really good tires. woud you suggest a "wider the tire the better" like a 225? or would a good grippinh 205 do the job on a 16' in.?

[boosted_K2]

you have to pay attention to rim width, you should have atleast a 7" wide wheel to run a 225. id recommend going with these:
http://www.hankooktireusa.com/product/tire...tail.asp?pid=86
in a 215/45/16 for a good cost effective street tire.

[andrewb0x29a]

yikes $200 for a custom alignment, that was expensive.... especially if you plan on trialing various setups.

Yeah, it was more than I had planned on but the shop that was going to do it had a broken alignment machine I needed it done that day. After I added the crash bolts the control arms needed a lot of adjustment to get everything lined up properly. Fortunately I knew exactly what I wanted ahead of time so I didn't need to try out various setups.

[boosted_K2]

ya, i was in the same situation, i needed it done friday before my co-driver picked it up to go to oscoda, ended up costing me 125 and we are going to need to make a few minor changes.

[jdg371]

hmm is 65 for a custom alignment a good price?

Im grabbing some wheels of my friends Alltrac. their 16x7.5, for now Im throwing my Potenza 050A on them (225/50) how well do you think it would work with a stock car.. ( heavy a** rims 18.1lb.. yikes!)

[andrewb0x29a]

hmm is 65 for a custom alignment a good price?

Im grabbing some wheels of my friends Alltrac. their 16x7.5, for now Im throwing my Potenza 050A on them (225/50) how well do you think it would work with a stock car.. ( heavy a** rims 18.1lb.. yikes!)

From what I've seen $65 is good for any alignment. The best I usually see for autoX alignments locally is ~$90 and you need to make an appointment a few weeks in advance.

One thing to remember about selecting wheels/tires is to see how they will impact your gearing and total height. Our cars are geared fairly low so a larger diameter tire will increase top speed in each gear. However, they also increase ride height. A smaller diameter tire will lower the car and help handling but could force you to upshift. I have been considering trying 14" wheels with small diameter tires to see what the effect would be. I already need 3rd on some courses.

Also, you really want light weight wheels and tires. Every extra lb of rotating weight is equivalent to ~10 lbs of normal weight. Dropping 1 lb per wheel would be like losing 40lbs from the rest of the car.

[boosted_K2]

make sure its 65 for a 4 wheel alignment, thats how i got screwed... i asked how much an alignment w/ custom specs would cost... after i get the car back it ends up being double b/c the quote was for only one end.

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

yikes $200 for a custom alignment, that was expensive.... especially if you plan on trialing various setups.

No kidding. I got mine done for $50. Actually, it was a gift from my dad, but it cost him $50. I'm about 2.5% in front, but more than that in the back. I need better tires, I slide way to much on hard turns. Body role hasn't even became a big issue yet. I think the sways would be the best thing for me right now. Almost winter, and I need to keep my crap tires till spring.

[boosted_K2]

2.5% of what?

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

2.5% of what?

lol, I ment, somewere around that many degrees negative camber. The front isn't too far off, but back is pretty extreme.

[hitcachi]

i dunno, i guess im still kinda lost. There are just so damn many suspension combinations and setups that you can have that i just dont get which one is the RIGHT one. Between shocks, tire size/weight, rim size/weight, so and so forth is just gets depressing. For now, i dont think that koni are for me. They are hardcore performance and you pay for it. But tires, i am considering a 205 or 215 but i dont want anything thats too big and would be bulky but i want wide.

This post has been edited by hitcachi: Aug 30, 2006 - 1:23 AM

[jdg371]

wow.. I believe this is SAD.. this is the 6gc community that attends motorsport..

[hitcachi]

wow.. I believe this is SAD.. this is the 6gc community that attends motorsport..

[jdg371]

the small % of the 6gcs members (4-5of us) that actually want to race our cars.. Ive just been thinking about it..

Tercels has a stronger amount of people that race theirs

[speedy]

so guys what about a quality coil over setup? or is it better to go with springs and struts sperately?

[boosted_K2]

the small % of the 6gcs members (4-5of us) that actually want to race our cars.. Ive just been thinking about it..

Tercels has a stronger amount of people that race theirs

lol and i dont even race a 6gc (though i did at one point) i find it funny how many more people here are obsessed w/ drag racing. drag racing is for fast cars, autocross is for fast drivers.

what is fun is watching someone bring some super modified street car out to an autocross and get totally frustrated because their $5k+ suspension SUCKS because its improperly setup.... its fun turning faster times than them and having them go "**** you must have some crazy suspension mods, whats done to it?" and being able to respond "its stock except some adjustable dampers and a front swaybar"

[hitcachi]

what is fun is watching someone bring some super modified street car out to an autocross and get totally frustrated because their $5k+ suspension SUCKS because its improperly setup.... its fun turning faster times than them and having them go "**** you must have some crazy suspension mods, whats done to it?" and being able to respond "its stock except some adjustable dampers and a front swaybar"

I know exactly what your saying. We had our first auto x here in lincoln, ne in like years and i went to it. Needless to say, there were all these built cars but no one knew how to handle them on the track. Then a couple of stockies would show up and waste everyone. Except for this lotus. That damn thing ate everyone alive. But thats why i want to get into auto x.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

I think just about the most thorough suspension setup you can buy for racing is as follows-

Great tires (Falken Azenis, Toyo Proxes, etc)
Tein SuperStreet coilovers
Cusco adjustable camber plates
Suspension Techniques sway bars, front and rear
Strut tower bars, front and rear
All new bushings



Lastly what I also feel is important is good brakes to stop the car effectively so that you can transfer weight to the front wheels when you need to transfer the momentum into traction, which is essential when you track a FF vehicle.

My aim is to bring the Celica to some events soon, and have it set to a mildly aggressive street tune that can grip relentlessly and not understeer like a dog when pushed. Fortunately the ability to adjust front and rear shocks on the Teins influences those characteristics quite well for anyone serious about racing. Konis also have this ability which is a huge benefit to racing applications.

[boosted_K2]

I think just about the most thorough suspension setup you can buy for racing is as follows-

Great tires (Falken Azenis, Toyo Proxes, etc)
Tein SuperStreet coilovers
Cusco adjustable camber plates
Suspension Techniques sway bars, front and rear
Strut tower bars, front and rear
All new bushings



Lastly what I also feel is important is good brakes to stop the car effectively so that you can transfer weight to the front wheels when you need to transfer the momentum into traction, which is essential when you track a FF vehicle.

My aim is to bring the Celica to some events soon, and have it set to a mildly aggressive street tune that can grip relentlessly and not understeer like a dog when pushed. Fortunately the ability to adjust front and rear shocks on the Teins influences those characteristics quite well for anyone serious about racing. Konis also have this ability which is a huge benefit to racing applications.

i'd be more inclined to see what exactly john dolecek ran on his STS celica. AFAIK his was the most prepped for autocrossing ive seen of a 6gc, but im sure theres others. likely you dont want/need strut towers bars on both front and rear, and you may not want a certain sway bar... it takes a lot of testing and tuning to figure out exactly what combo you want to run and exactly how you want to run it.

[beno]

what are fender braces?

[airfron]

here you go beno fender braces
also called side-tower braces, they connect to the doorjamb and the strut tower, from what i hear they actually help quite a bit with stiffening up the front end and improving steering

my friend and i are probably gonna try making some for our cars this week or next week

[Bigmeanbulldog55]

here you go beno fender braces
also called side-tower braces, they connect to the doorjamb and the strut tower, from what i hear they actually help quite a bit with stiffening up the front end and improving steering

my friend and i are probably gonna try making some for our cars this week or next week

Any one got a pic of some installed? I'd like to get a good idea of how to make mine before I go just chopping up stuff.

[DeW_H0e_GT]

pm dg performance.....