Altezza (Black Top) BEAMS, In a 6gc Options

[devilsden97]

So today on the way to school I was thinking about this thread:

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40694

I thought the Altezza's BEAMS motor, was a v6. Then when I made it to class, I was thinking about it again, then I thought it was an Inline 6. Then after searching here, I found this thread:

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...lack+Top)+Beams

If you look at the exaust manifold in one of the pictures (it shows a side view of the motor, manifold side) it leads me to believe that it is an Inline 4. So this brings up 2 questions.

What is the Altezza (black top) BEAMS motor? (Inline6 or Inline4)

[if the answer is Inline6, then ignore the next question, I know an Inline6 won't fit because it has to be mounted Longitudanaly, in the engine bay, and won't fit between the strut towers.]

IF it is an Inline4, it should fit in the celica right? (with the 3s-ge transmission)

I know the common idea is, "there is no way u can get it in." so Im really wondering, What exactly makes it not fit? (from the pictures it seems the Intake manifold, and the Exaust manifold are pretty large, and might cause problems, but as i keep looking at it, it doesn't seem impossible.

(I used the search function, and Searched "Altezza (black top) BEAMS")

This post has been edited by devilsden97: Sep 1, 2006 - 8:46 AM

[Celiracer18]

i think its just a matter of finding the right tranny and getting it all mounted in the car

[playr158]

noobsauce its an Inline 4....its just a 3sge..

and the only reason it wouldn't fit is the transmission would more then likely hit the firewall....but thats easily fixable with some cutting and welding

[devilsden97]

well that sounds like a weak excuse.

[playr158]

then do it

[bindertch]

The engine from that auction wouldn't mount up that easy. If like devilsden said you use the regular 3SGE transmission and a different header it might fit. It also might be too tall due to that it sits vertical and not on an angle like the 3SGTE or the 5SFE. You might be able to adapt an oiling system from one of those engines but it might not work 100% because of the different angles.

This post has been edited by bindertch: Sep 2, 2006 - 4:42 AM

[devilsden97]

then do it

i cant, just your reasoning sounds like a very weak excuse.

The engine from that auction wouldn't mount up that easy. If like devilsden said you use the regular 3SGE transmission and a different header it might fit. It also might be too tall due to that it sits vertical and not on an angle like the 3SGTE or the 5SFE. You might be able to adapt an oiling system from one of those engines but it might not work 100% because of the different angles.

While this sounds more logical

[playr158]

weak excuse for wat?

with 5sfe engine mounts and a GT transmission it would bolt right in noproblem as a FWD platform..wiring would be your issue...it would swap nearly identical to any 3sge/3sgte motor (although the holes for the motor mounts MIGHT not be there, that would then take some creativy mounting them)

now if your creative such as i was thinking you'd need to make custom engine brackets and mount it the otherway and run the stock transmission as pictured with a modified trans tunnel and a GT4 custom rear end god think outside the box

This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 2, 2006 - 11:29 AM

[Kadett]

Even if you sort out if the GT tranny and mounts are a direct fit (which the probably do) you still need to sort out how you want to route the air intake since its on the wrong (no space) side of the car.

[sugarfree]

Use the redtops intake manifold.

[Kadett]

Use the redtops intake manifold.

So then whats the whole point of getting the Blacktops then

[BLADDER_MASTER]

Get a redtop. Blacktop ain't worth it.

[devilsden97]

Get a redtop. Blacktop ain't worth it.

not debating worthyness (if thats a word) debating ideas on how to do it. or if its possible.

[MaskedMan]

well yes it possible if you REALLY want the dual VVT-i that the black top has to offer and if you had the money and/or fabrication skills. Like mentioned here, a fwd transmission would need to be used to replace the rwd transmission included with that engine. Also mentioned was the intake manifold. yes it would need to be exchanged with another intake manifold with the air entry on the other side. Wiring is always an issue with any swap, so that is just exspected with this swap. A new exhuast manifold would also need to be fabricated to complete the swap. Ofcourse there is much more involved in this swap, but in terms of cost and effectiveness, this swap is not feasable, however it IS possible which is what you were asking.

This post has been edited by MaskedMan: Sep 2, 2006 - 7:18 PM

[playr158]

Even if you sort out if the GT tranny and mounts are a direct fit (which the probably do) you still need to sort out how you want to route the air intake since its on the wrong (no space) side of the car.

honestly if your going through the effort you think having to make a custom intake tube is a deturant...if your worried about making an intake tube..then you shouldn't even think of this to start...

[ExSane]

Even if you sort out if the GT tranny and mounts are a direct fit (which the probably do) you still need to sort out how you want to route the air intake since its on the wrong (no space) side of the car.

honestly if your going through the effort you think having to make a custom intake tube is a deturant...if your worried about making an intake tube..then you shouldn't even think of this to start...

Just short ram the bish! And when you finally got the money, turbo it and you won't have to worry about the intake. And yeah, I say GO FOR IT! Anything is possible with money.

This post has been edited by ExSane: Sep 12, 2006 - 1:46 AM

[burneeed]

Even if you sort out if the GT tranny and mounts are a direct fit (which the probably do) you still need to sort out how you want to route the air intake since its on the wrong (no space) side of the car.

honestly if your going through the effort you think having to make a custom intake tube is a deturant...if your worried about making an intake tube..then you shouldn't even think of this to start...

Just short ram the bish! And when you finally got the money, turbo it and you won't have to worry about the intake. And yeah, I say GO FOR IT! Anything is possible with money.

turbo a high compression motor... come on now.

Its not worth it its a na swap thats going to cost alot when you can get a 3sgte for around the same price range.

This post has been edited by burneeed: Sep 12, 2006 - 2:16 AM

[ExSane]

Wait... is it possible you can bolt on the red top intake manifold to make the intake throttle to the right instead? But paint it black before you put it on. Could it be possible... I wonder...

This post has been edited by ExSane: Sep 12, 2006 - 2:45 AM

[burneeed]

Wait... is it possible you can bolt on the red top intake manifold to make the intake throttle to the right instead? But paint it black before you put it on. Could it be possible... I wonder...

[Kwanza26]

This topic is lame...

Blacktop BEAMS = 3SGE = direct bolt in

You're gonna need a header and FWD intake manifold (redtop *might* fit)... Also... the engine costs more than most 6th gens... so yeah... do it or don't.

[roman]

*sigh*

So much misinformation in this thread.

Reasons why it's a ****ty idea:

1. It will bolt straight up to your gearbox, but the oilpan and head etc is optimised for having the engine upright, this may cause problems.

2. The VVTI pulleys stick further out from the block than on a single VVTI engine, making it too long to fit; the cam cover will bang into your suspension tower. Unless you cut the cam cover off and some of the pulley.

3. Exhaust side VVTI adds economy only, no increase in power. The 10hp difference to a single VVTI engine is made from revised head design, titanium valves on the inlet side, and higher compression. (11.5:1 instead of 11:1)

4. The single VVTI engine outputs all of the signals to your dash etc in a conventional way. The dual VVTI engine has an 'MMX' wire, which carries the information from your engine to the dash. This is decoded by the electronics in the dash, and displayed on the various signals. As such it is near impossible to get your gauges working without the Altezza dash unit.

5. The intake manifold faces the wrong way (Left instead of right, or vice versa) And it will also bang into your firewall, as it sticks away from the engine rather than towards it.

6. The Altezza runs a returnless fuel line, and the ECU varies the fuel pressure by increasing or decreasing the speed of the fuel pump.
So impossible to get working with standard fuel pump, or 'regular' replacement.
Single VVTI engine has a fuel return line, so any fuel pump is fine (so long as you dont run out of flow)

7. An altezza 3SGE is quite desirable to quite a few people, and fetches a fair price.
A single VVTI Caldina GT engine is IDENTICAL to a single VVTI redtop engine, but sells for a fraction of the price. Not only this, but it bolts straight up with NONE of the above problems!

8. Someone has mounted a dual VVTI engine in an MR2, but required the redtop intake manifold, exhaust, sump, and a few other bits. They never got it running though, thanks to wiring problems.

In conclusion... It's technically possible, but absolutely NOT worth the effort, for >10hp gain over a single VVTI engine!

This post has been edited by roman: Sep 13, 2006 - 8:14 AM

[devilsden97]

^ thank u, thats what I was looking for. I wasnt going to do the swap, I just got to thinking while driving.


Whats the engine code for the Caldina GT? 3sge? pictures? (now im just curious to see)