Anyone Experience this??, Manual Tranny Shifting Problem Options

[Fastbird]

This is probably going to be for the forced induction guys more than anyone, but here's my issue:

I CANNOT hit a hard shift into 2nd at WOT in the car. Simply put, the tranny refuses to go into 2nd gear, and third gear offers quite a bit of resistance at high throttle inputs also. When driving easily however, it shifts fine into any gear I want it to.

Call me crazy but I've always had trouble shifting cable actuated manual transmission under heavy loads. What I think is happening is that my old/weak motor mounts are allowing enough movement in the motor that enough of a shift happens to throw off the sync of the cables to the shifter. What I'm trying to do is get some verification on this.

Thoughts? I must have tried 4-5 times last night on the way home from work to bang a high RPM WOT 1-2 shift and it wouldn't happen.

[playr158]

penzoil syncromesh + new syncros

[brthrurik]

penzoil syncromesh + new syncros

x2... definately sounds like syncro's not disengaging... had the same problem going to third in my car...

[Coomer]

I had the same issue as well before my car clutch/tranny really started having problems and could barely shift at all. Sounds like synchros to me as well. Are you using the S54 tranny?

[Fastbird]

Just using the stock 5S-FE 5 speed tranny (don't know the name of it) but....let me retiterate: Under normal driving conditions there are absolutely no noted issues. Smooth shifting, no resistance, nada. No signs of trouble at all. Only under HEAVY throttle inputs do I get the resistance. And ONLY under the throttle (I.E. heavy loads). If I wind it up and take my foot off the gas, it'll go into gear without much fuss. If I stay on the gas and keep the engine torqued though, it'll have an issue with me. If I slow down the shift too, it'll go. It's only when it's under a heavy load at high RPM and when I try to hit a quickshift or powershift.

Essentially what I'm trying to find out is IF it's possible for saggy and old mounts to allow enough transaxle movement to cause the shift cables to have slack or what not that wouldn't allow gear selection. I honestly don't think it's an internal issue on the tranny because of how it drives at anything but the heavy loads.

Thanks for the words everyone. I'll keep you all posted. I'm probably going to pick up a set of those poly motor mount inserts (my stockers were a bit thrashed when the swap happened) and see if those don't improve anything.

This post has been edited by Fastbird: Oct 31, 2006 - 3:00 PM

[Bitter]

you're having a hard time shifting without using the clutch?

[Dr_Tweak]

Sean, due to the design of the shifter cables and a how they attach to the tranny, I don't think that the movement of the engine is your problem. It could possibly be the age of the tranny, but I personally have always had a hard time shifting 1-2 fast under heavy acceleration.

-Doc

[Rjb23]

I have the same problem but I have the e153. 1st to second shifts fine under normal acceleration but hard acceleration grinds. Do you have a short shifter?

[jgreening]

I had difficulty shifting issues and tried a number of things. In my particular case, syncromesch and stiffer mounts made the most difference. At sale, she was shifting smooth as butter.

[Fastbird]

Ok, I'm starting to think this is more normal than anything then. On the way home from work today, I got on it a few times and found that I could pull it off if I was 100% concentrating on the shift instead of going by my normal nature. These dang cable shifters are a different beast than on the tranny or direct solid linkage shifters that I'm used to.

Thanks for the help everyone!!!! FYI, the car should be at a test and tune at Atco on the 18th of November. Taking 2-3 cars if everything works out right.

[Fastbird]

Figured it out. In my Corvette and Trans Am's, I'm used to just "kicking" the clutch pedal. I have the engagement points set very high on those and can bang a powershift with at little as 1/3 pedal movement in each.

The celica however, needs to be put all the way down (due to the limited amount of pedal travel in the first place). Let's just say I was screeching the tires on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts on the way home tonight whilst making buttery smooth shifts.

Atco......here I come. November 18th provided weather is agreeable. Will be on vid too.

[bufferdan]

Change the gear oil and put pennzoil synchromesh from autozone in

[maikl]

change oil and check clutch

[Yellow94GT]

Atco......here I come. November 18th provided weather is agreeable. Will be on vid too.

Looking forward to that!

Yellow94GT

[Coomer]

Figured it out. In my Corvette and Trans Am's, I'm used to just "kicking" the clutch pedal. I have the engagement points set very high on those and can bang a powershift with at little as 1/3 pedal movement in each.

The celica however, needs to be put all the way down (due to the limited amount of pedal travel in the first place). Let's just say I was screeching the tires on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts on the way home tonight whilst making buttery smooth shifts.

Atco......here I come. November 18th provided weather is agreeable. Will be on vid too.

You can adjust where the clutch engages on our cars if you desire. At the top of the clutch pedal there's a threaded rod that's part of the master cylinder and is locked in place with a 12mm nut. Loosen that nut and then you can spin the rod to adjust how high or low your clutch engages.

[Fastbird]

Figured it out. In my Corvette and Trans Am's, I'm used to just "kicking" the clutch pedal. I have the engagement points set very high on those and can bang a powershift with at little as 1/3 pedal movement in each.

The celica however, needs to be put all the way down (due to the limited amount of pedal travel in the first place). Let's just say I was screeching the tires on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts on the way home tonight whilst making buttery smooth shifts.

Atco......here I come. November 18th provided weather is agreeable. Will be on vid too.

You can adjust where the clutch engages on our cars if you desire. At the top of the clutch pedal there's a threaded rod that's part of the master cylinder and is locked in place with a 12mm nut. Loosen that nut and then you can spin the rod to adjust how high or low your clutch engages.

Coomer, I'll take a look at that tomorrow! I didn't think that the Celica's clutch pedal would be adjustable like that. Thanks for the info!

[spunky393]

To coomers input and fastbird, our clutch throw adjusts to the user because of the hydraulics. when i first got my 98, the disengage point was as the bottom, and after a few short months of owning it, the disengage point is with-in a 1-1.5 inch depress.

And oh yeah, about the somewhat trouble with clutch at the right time with a powershift.....shift quicker

[laff09]

To coomers input and fastbird, our clutch throw adjusts to the user because of the hydraulics. when i first got my 98, the disengage point was as the bottom, and after a few short months of owning it, the disengage point is with-in a 1-1.5 inch depress.

its adjustable on the pedal itself, 2 nuts i think? probably should check/adjust them couple times a year

[easternpiro1]

damn! back from the dead!


im having THE SAME EXACT problem except that its with my 2nd and 4th gear most of the time, and when i try to downshift. it feels sorta mushy as if something was in the way, so i looked at the cables (from inside the car) and noticed that one of the gold colored brackets used as a washer for the cables going in and out of the shifter was off... fixed that and thought i was good... it continued...

I looked in the engine bay at the connections, and everything seemed fine, unless im missing something. like previous posts say i guess i will look for the tranny oil bolt and see if i can add some syncromesh

anyone else have any suggestions? im kinda stumped... Fastbird how did you resolve this? did shifting proper fix it in your case? (changing shifting technique didnt work for me and im scared to mess with that clutch bolt again as the u shaped bracket bent on me and i had to bend it back with my teeth a few months ago lol)

edit: i looked for the bold and couldnt find? about where is the bolt on the 5sfe?

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Jul 16, 2009 - 6:57 PM

[DEATH]

Eastern - PM me I have a couple of questions about this for you and hopefully an answer.

[Fastbird]

My issue was that I wasn't getting the clutch all teh way in. I found that if I concentrated on it I had no problem ripping off a full bore powershift without any issues.

[easternpiro1]

My issue was that I wasn't getting the clutch all teh way in. I found that if I concentrated on it I had no problem ripping off a full bore powershift without any issues.

oh i see! im thinking my problem is a mixture of both. my clutch is pretty hard and i find that i have to push down real hard to engage, but it still feels kind of mushy when i try to put the gear in place.

[Fastbird]

My issue was that I wasn't getting the clutch all teh way in. I found that if I concentrated on it I had no problem ripping off a full bore powershift without any issues.

oh i see! im thinking my problem is a mixture of both. my clutch is pretty hard and i find that i have to push down real hard to engage, but it still feels kind of mushy when i try to put the gear in place.

Have you tried to raise the pedal a little so you get some extra throw on the piston??? That might help you out. It might not be disengaging all the way causing it to feel odd as you put it in gear. Does the tach jump when you put it in any of the gears?

[easternpiro1]

My issue was that I wasn't getting the clutch all teh way in. I found that if I concentrated on it I had no problem ripping off a full bore powershift without any issues.

oh i see! im thinking my problem is a mixture of both. my clutch is pretty hard and i find that i have to push down real hard to engage, but it still feels kind of mushy when i try to put the gear in place.

Have you tried to raise the pedal a little so you get some extra throw on the piston??? That might help you out. It might not be disengaging all the way causing it to feel odd as you put it in gear. Does the tach jump when you put it in any of the gears?

im thinking the pedal is pretty high already. but i really think its the syncros because i havent even been able to get into second even going slow now. i will try the syncromesh then see, and i will also check the connections again... i may be missing something. a friend of mine told me i have a lot of play in a mechanism that attatches one cable to the tranny on the rear side. (idk what its called though )

[808celica]

Hmmm mushy?? like the shifter isnt entering the shift gate??? Hey same problem as me

[DEATH]

Guys both of you sound like you have a stretched shifter cable to me [the same one from the sounds of it].
Piro - did you only change the one broken cable or both before when you ad this problem?

[easternpiro1]

I havent changed anything, they are the cables that i got from prodigy 515 while my car was in the shop. he needed the d 153 cables i had and i needed the GT cables he had. car was fine until recently.


I recently noticed that 2nd and 4th are the ones giving me trouble while i am accelerating ESPECIALLY 2ND. they only respond when i am going slow. and in first sometimes i have to force it in. after i have been driving a while i have to just skip 2nd gear because it wont go in. Doc told me to take the cables off and manually shift the tranny with my hand to determine if it is the cables or the tranny before i go trying to put in some syncromesh lube. (i dont know how to do this, but imma learn though! )

Hmmm mushy?? like the shifter isnt entering the shift gate??? Hey same problem as me

and the shift gate? you mean the plastic piece that the actual shifter is connected to right? right where the two cables are held in place by the white plastic and a u shaped metal washer? i saw that one cable was getting past that, so i pushed the u washer in but it continued ugh if its not one thing its another lol.

[808celica]

no no. the feeling that the trans actually locks in the gear. here try this, unhook the shifter cables inside the engine bay, have someone play around with the stick, by putting it in all gears. look and the cables if there is enough movement like 3/4in to 1in (dunno if thats too long). look for movement, i guess you have to use your judgement if its enought to pull and push the actual part that's selecting the gears.

IIRC but pushing the lever towards the trans mount is 2nd and pushing it towards the intake manifold is 1st. Before you do that have someone shift into all gears and see how the arms and cables move.

[808celica]

from inside the car looking at the shifter the left cable(closest to your leg) should just control the left to right movement of the stick and the cable that is on the right(passenger side) controls the actual selection of 1-2-3-4-5- R.

Yups Matt we have the same problem with the same symptoms.

Piro you'll notice if you drive more you will lose ALL GEARS!!! and you wont be able to get out of it it happened to me while slowing down for a speed bump, i had to pull on the side and force the gear selector arm in the bay into neutral. Hahaha and the other time at the light, i had to launch in 3rd gear T___T


This post has been edited by 808celica: Jul 17, 2009 - 8:25 PM

[808celica]

try this too:
-grab a 2nd person
-have a 2nd thats hold the stick in the gear that's always mushy
-it shouldn't go into gear and have the feeling of "emptyness"
-you go in the bay and pushing the gear selector (the upper one, not the one thats on an L arm) towards the trans mount
-your 2nd should notice the feeling of the stick entering 2nd gear

-your 2nd should be able to push it into neutral
-then have him/her put the stick in neutral again
-if there's still the mushy empty feel the yes we have the same problem

*ehem waiting for my cables

[easternpiro1]

imma try that sunday! doc told me to do the same thing... BOY i sure hope its my cables and not syncros! but i hear that i would be grinding if my syncros were bad. if it is my cables, what would cause them to go bad?

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Jul 18, 2009 - 2:57 AM

[pittfirefighter]

hey maybe this will help you out... i have an e153 tranny... i had the EXACT same problem about... 2 months ago... it started with hard shifts out of 1st into 2nd at WOT... it just wouldn't go... i had to POP it out of gear and wait for RPM's to settle before moving it into second... thats how it started... i took it all over trying to figure out what was wrong... now i have a competition clutch stage 4 six puck from tweak... so i got used to not throttling it hard... well next the clutch pedal started sticking at high rpms... i would go to shift and the pedal would still be on the floor... then it got worse and worse... lower and lower rpms the pedal would stick... so i changed the slave cylinder.... BAM! shifts smooth as butter... loved it... week later... slave went bad again ... so at this point i had the problem narrowed down... i went ahead and replaced everything... slave, master, hydraulic lines... and even got myself an extended pushrod made for the e153... havent had a single problem since then... just something to keep in mind if it gets worse or if anyone has the same problems in the future

[808celica]

imma try that sunday! doc told me to do the same thing... BOY i sure hope its my cables and not syncros! but i hear that i would be grinding if my syncros were bad. if it is my cables, what would cause them to go bad?

maybe just old age?? i dont know wondering myself

if your synchros are bad you wont be able to put it in gear on or off.

[easternpiro1]

hiya guys, me and a friend tried some of the stuff suggested i went through all gears, checked what was going in, and did it manually it SEEMED as if the gears all went in when done inside the engine bay. but it goes into all gears when the car isnt moving without problems. i noticed that i can get into the upper gears with NO problem (3rd and 5th) and the bottom three (2nd 4th and reverse) are giving me trouble (reverse just started refusing to go in just as the others). the gears do not grind AT ALL, and the fact that when i pull back on the stick and get problems makes me think shifter cables not reaching far enough, but next im going to try syncro mesh. im thinking something is getting caught but i cant see it! i will try to find some time later this week to double and triple check everything as im SURE i overlooked something! i jus tdont want to spend 300 bucks for cables and find out its something else.

I also noticed that a cotter pin was not in the mechanism near the L arm, thought that would fix the problem as it was getting too much play, but no dice

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Jul 19, 2009 - 11:37 PM

[808celica]

Another thing could be is if our shifter needs to be shimmed right. I don't really care for money and the cables, I just need the car up cuz I hate asking for the truck or van. Car is gonna be sold anyways(or atleast when someone has the money).

[netrata]

Another thing could be is if our shifter needs to be shimmed right. I don't really care for money and the cables, I just need the car up cuz I hate asking for the truck or van. Car is gonna be sold anyways(or atleast when someone has the money).

Just keep your car.

[808celica]

Another thing could be is if our shifter needs to be shimmed right. I don't really care for money and the cables, I just need the car up cuz I hate asking for the truck or van. Car is gonna be sold anyways(or atleast when someone has the money).

Just keep your car.

Hahaha only you, me, and the 2 brandons (full exterior gtfour conversion) now

[easternpiro1]

i went in there and messed around some more. i was alone so i couldnt tell which gear was which when i was switching them from the engine bay but i did notice 2 things...

for one: the cable seems to become unsheathed about 4-5 inches before the cable goes into the bracket in the engine bay (i noticed that the cable had a stray thread or two, not broken mind you, just not wrapped as tight as the rest of the cable threads.

two: the cable that attatches to the L shaped arm looks like it can easily bump into the device that switches the gears... idk if ya'll know what i mean, will take pics when i get off work...

im still sort of stumped but its a learning process so i appreciate all the feedback!

[808celica]

i know what you mean. yeah mines is unsheathed about 2in's also. the cable on the bell crank bracket only justifies the left to right movement of the shifter. at one time my bushings wore out and i could shake the shifter left to right while its in gear. pretty scary when driving too

changed the whole bracket and bushings and its all good there. my cables got shipped and should be here. i looked under herosblade's car while doing his axle change. it seems all too easy to change the cables. i'll let you know Piro if that doesnt fix.

im pretty confident though that it will, if your synchros are bad you wont be able to put it in gear when its off or on.

[easternpiro1]

i know what you mean. yeah mines is unsheathed about 2in's also. the cable on the bell crank bracket only justifies the left to right movement of the shifter. at one time my bushings wore out and i could shake the shifter left to right while its in gear. pretty scary when driving too

changed the whole bracket and bushings and its all good there. my cables got shipped and should be here. i looked under herosblade's car while doing his axle change. it seems all too easy to change the cables. i'll let you know Piro if that doesnt fix.

im pretty confident though that it will, if your synchros are bad you wont be able to put it in gear when its off or on.

ah! my shifter is VERY loose when not in gear i can move it left and right easily!

and BTW... i forgot to mention that i can shift that $#!T into gear without the clutch when the car was off!! i didnt realize that!!!

and thanks 808, can you take a pic of where u changed the bushings at and the bell crank bracket?

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Jul 21, 2009 - 7:15 PM

[pittfirefighter]

and BTW... i forgot to mention that i can shift that $#!T into gear without the clutch when the car was off!! i didnt realize that!!!

hate to burst your bubble but everyone can do that... the flywheel and input shaft are not turning so as long as the gears are lined up you can shift into gear while the car is off W/O the clutch... so you might be able to shft into a few of the gears when the car is off... depends how far they have turned since you shut the car off pushing the clutch allows the input shaft to turn... allowing you to push it into any gear that might not be lined up...

but the fact that your gear problems are all on the bottom gears means something important... its not clutch, its not synchros... your list is as follows... shifter bushings, shift linkage bushings, shifter arms, linkage... it HAS to be one of these... good luck to you!

This post has been edited by pittfirefighter: Jul 22, 2009 - 12:58 AM

[easternpiro1]

and BTW... i forgot to mention that i can shift that $#!T into gear without the clutch when the car was off!! i didnt realize that!!!

hate to burst your bubble but everyone can do that... the flywheel and input shaft are not turning so as long as the gears are lined up you can shift into gear while the car is off W/O the clutch... so you might be able to shft into a few of the gears when the car is off... depends how far they have turned since you shut the car off pushing the clutch allows the input shaft to turn... allowing you to push it into any gear that might not be lined up...

but the fact that your gear problems are all on the bottom gears means something important... its not clutch, its not synchros... your list is as follows... shifter bushings, shift linkage bushings, shifter arms, linkage... it HAS to be one of these... good luck to you!

lol bubble bursted... i dont remember being able to do that in the past which is what caused the alarm, but thanks pitt and 808, imma get on these asap.

[DEATH]

but the fact that your gear problems are all on the bottom gears means something important... its not clutch, its not synchros... your list is as follows... shifter bushings, shift linkage bushings, shifter arms, linkage... it HAS to be one of these... good luck to you!

This was my point also - Happy hunting guys

[808celica]

i know what you mean. yeah mines is unsheathed about 2in's also. the cable on the bell crank bracket only justifies the left to right movement of the shifter. at one time my bushings wore out and i could shake the shifter left to right while its in gear. pretty scary when driving too

changed the whole bracket and bushings and its all good there. my cables got shipped and should be here. i looked under herosblade's car while doing his axle change. it seems all too easy to change the cables. i'll let you know Piro if that doesnt fix.

im pretty confident though that it will, if your synchros are bad you wont be able to put it in gear when its off or on.

ah! my shifter is VERY loose when not in gear i can move it left and right easily!

and BTW... i forgot to mention that i can shift that $#!T into gear without the clutch when the car was off!! i didnt realize that!!!

and thanks 808, can you take a pic of where u changed the bushings at and the bell crank bracket?

k i will that when i install the cables, hopefully today (22nd)

really you didnt know that??? well your synchros are good then

but the fact that your gear problems are all on the bottom gears means something important... its not clutch, its not synchros... your list is as follows... shifter bushings, shift linkage bushings, shifter arms, linkage... it HAS to be one of these... good luck to you!

This was my point also - Happy hunting guys

thanks Matt, sorry i didnt look harder at the cables.

[easternpiro1]

i know what you mean. yeah mines is unsheathed about 2in's also. the cable on the bell crank bracket only justifies the left to right movement of the shifter. at one time my bushings wore out and i could shake the shifter left to right while its in gear. pretty scary when driving too

changed the whole bracket and bushings and its all good there. my cables got shipped and should be here. i looked under herosblade's car while doing his axle change. it seems all too easy to change the cables. i'll let you know Piro if that doesnt fix.

im pretty confident though that it will, if your synchros are bad you wont be able to put it in gear when its off or on.

ah! my shifter is VERY loose when not in gear i can move it left and right easily!

and BTW... i forgot to mention that i can shift that $#!T into gear without the clutch when the car was off!! i didnt realize that!!!

and thanks 808, can you take a pic of where u changed the bushings at and the bell crank bracket?

k i will that when i install the cables, hopefully today (22nd)

really you didnt know that??? well your synchros are good then

but the fact that your gear problems are all on the bottom gears means something important... its not clutch, its not synchros... your list is as follows... shifter bushings, shift linkage bushings, shifter arms, linkage... it HAS to be one of these... good luck to you!

This was my point also - Happy hunting guys

thanks Matt, sorry i didnt look harder at the cables.

nah i didnt know, i remember trying to do it in my beater (94 mitsubishi eclipse) and it not going, i just never wanted to try in the celica

[808celica]

Cables changed!! and now my shifter is hella crisp

here's the pics Hahah


the longer one is the old cable, really stretched

[easternpiro1]

damn... those look FAMILIAR... hmmmm. cables ordered. lol

[808celica]

damn... those look FAMILIAR... hmmmm. cables ordered. lol

let us know how it goes.

[bdog_v]

hey guys glad i came across your thread. My 94 celica gt 5 speed sometimes won't go into gear say 1st while stopped at a light. When this happens it will go in some of the other gears and others it won't go into then the next time it won't go into 1st I'll try the other gears and it will go into different ones than the time before very odd. I already have the synchromesh oil and it helped alot with shifting years ago when I first added it. This car does shift great while rolling. To fix this I tried adjusting the clutch pedal for more play by lengthening the pushrod on the master cylinder. I literally got 4 half turns on the nut and it was already maxed out. So I was suspicious of the master cylinder as the problem went away for a week and came back today. However the clutch always engages where it should I really don't think I have a master cylinder or slave cylinder problem. I have 0 leaks and I blead the system today and it did not help........

-So to be honest after reading this thread I am leaning towards the cables...... Any ideas????



-Where does one get new cables and what is the best price you can find them for?


Thanks......

[808celica]

from what i heard if it pops out its usually something trans wise. it wouldnt hurt to check your cables though. all you need is simple tools and and hour time.

new cables are $425 new from toyota. best bet is find a junked celica

This post has been edited by 808celica: Aug 5, 2009 - 3:45 AM

[easternpiro1]

x2 but first look at your cables and inspect them. follow them all the way from your trans to the fire wall and into the cabin to the shifter, if there is any break in the hard plastic be wary for any exposed cable which eventually becomes untwined and loose. look @808's pics to compare. mine did the SAME EXACT THING. BTW... SUCCESS! CABLES ARE IN AND SHIFTS LIKE A CHAMP! thanks guys!!

but if your cables are exposed, inspect closer to see if they are tightly wound around a center cable


and yeah... toyota will get you BAD. try to find a used set first... i had to pay 400 for mine.

This post has been edited by easternpiro1: Aug 8, 2009 - 3:22 AM