OH NOOO: I put Washer Fuild into my motor...., ... and it made it go faster! Options

[lagos]

over the past few months, ive been trying to street tune my car to get the most of out my setup. i noticed that i could run 13psi just fine, and sometimes even 14 or 15, but sooner or later i noticed that i would see knock response on my tvsv leds. after trying a lot of things to resolve the problem, i came to realize that the jdm ecu just runs too much timing advance for our pump gas. youll hear mr2oc guys always say how they keep their boost at 15psi, with no problems, but then you look at their dyno sheets and they are only making 200whp at that boost level. so, if the turbo is good for it, and we have the fuel to support it, then the problem must be timing.

so decided to fix the problem by buying water injection. i got the Devils Own water injection kit. i have it running pure washer fluid, 3gpl nozzle, and injection starts at 10psi. it made a huge difference! i can now run 16psi, with no knock and the car pulls like crazy. ive yet to try any more boost then that ( and i probably wont), but im confident that it would do 18psi with no knock, if i really wanted to push it. youll hear people say the ct26 falls on its face after 15psi.... but all of that changes with water injection. your intake charge is cooled down in a major way, and it makes a world of difference, especially on our jdm ecu's that are tuned for higher octain gas.

here are some pics. i installed it in my trunk, because i had almost no room in the engine bay. sorry for the wiring mess, i was going to clean it up before posting pics, but its just to damn cold out right now.







This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 11, 2007 - 11:30 PM

[WannabeGT4]

Nice. I'm definitely going to look into that since I'm running an RC ECU.

[Batman722]

about time you posted about it Art, nice job

1/2 gallon tank ? and you ran the tube from the hatch to the bay (make sure it doesn't get kinked) and what do you plan on using instead of washer fluid (for the winter, I would assume water in the summer) ?

[WannabeGT4]

Might as well use washer fluid year round. The methanol couldn't hurt anything.

[hellsyphon]

Did you try using methanol or mix of methanol and distilled water instead of windshield washer fluid? I remember reading awhile back on NASIOC that windshield washer fluid clogged the jets and left a blue residue inside of the engine on several people.

[lagos]

about time you posted about it Art, nice job

1/2 gallon tank ? and you ran the tube from the hatch to the bay (make sure it doesn't get kinked) and what do you plan on using instead of washer fluid (for the winter, I would assume water in the summer) ?

the lines are all run along the door still next to the lines for the rear window sprayer. so everything is protected and wont get kinked.

for the tank, i bought a generic coolant overflow tank. its a 2liter, i think? but you can also just use your normal washer tank. you would just have to mount the pump below the tank to make it easier for it to pump.

im going to run washer fluid all year round. it contains about 40% meth and 60% water. the water helps cool, while the meth adds oxygen and fuel to it (at least thats how i understand it). so its best to run a mix of meth and water for best results, which you get with cheap washer fluid.

mannys kit is on order. woot for smurf piss !

[lagos]

Did you try using methanol or mix of methanol and distilled water instead of windshield washer fluid? I remember reading awhile back on NASIOC that windshield washer fluid clogged the jets and left a blue residue inside of the engine on several people.

no way it will clog the jet. even the place that sells these kits along with many people that use it, recommend washer fluid. as far as having pistons coated blue....im cool with that. i see nothing wrong with that. the residue they see is probably just normal carbon build up with some of the blue dye they put into the fluid.

[lagos]

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/universal...on-kit-p-8.html

this is the kit i got. you cant beat it for the price.

[Defgeph]

Looks good dude, its nice to see you push the limits of the 26. Can't wait to see the new dyno numbers. Good luck.

[hitcachi]

Definitly cool! Where did you find this? Is this something that you have been reading about for awhile? Either way, nice work pushing the ct26.

[lagos]

Definitly cool! Where did you find this? Is this something that you have been reading about for awhile? Either way, nice work pushing the ct26.

water injection has been around for a long time. i always thought about getting it, but everything i saw was in the 3-600$ price range. someone on mr2oc posted about this kit, and i starter to look into it more. seems tons of srt4 guys use this with great results. so i decided to jump on it.

[lagos]

really great article about water injection
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html

edit: found 2 more great reads

http://www.turbotuning.net/e_Grund_FAQ.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 12, 2007 - 2:01 AM

[lagos]

great quotes from one of the links

"16. Should I upgrade my intercooler or get a water injection system first?
They do different jobs, intercooler makes the air denser and thus giving more power. Unfortunately more power means higher combustion temperature and pressure, so water injection is becoming a more important addition to prevent the onset on detonation due to peak pressures and peak combustion temperatures.

The natural progression would be to retaining your stock intercooler and add water injection to supplement the existing cooling capacity of the stock system, charge temperature in particular.

When you decided to go all out for big power, the entire system would have to be upgraded, not just intercooler, turbo, up and down pipes etc. Water injection should definately be included on your list of upgrade components.



17. So I need to buy both (WIS/intercooler) at the same time?
Ideally, yes. Given that water injection can cool the inlet temperature as well as suppressing detonation, so water injection should be your prime consideration, as an intercooler cannot perform in-cylinder cooling.



18. I want to increase my boost pressure to maximise the full flow range of the original fuel injectors, would I then need water injection?

Definitely yes, by stretching the fuel supply capacity to its limit, the Engine management would have lost its ability to dump fuel to assist the cooling of the combustion chamber, the running temperature will increase and soon bring about the onset of detonation and eventually lead to engine failure.

8. Can I use windshield washer fluid?
Although most contain some glycol and detergent, most windshield washer fluids are up to 50% alcohol (methanol, ethanol, isopropanol) and make an excellent Boost Cooler®. Try to find one that indicates "contains methanol".


"

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 12, 2007 - 2:13 AM

[presure2]

WOOT!
good job art, once my kit is in and installed, ill post some 5sfte results as well

[x_itchy_b_x]

Sweet! Water injection is pretty niffty, at first im not gunna lie, i thought someone was really dumb enough to put washer fluid in the oil or something lol.
I had the same feeling free boosting the ct26 with the larger intercooler. basicly the same effect as water injection because what its doing is cooling the charge more. Id like to try water injection on the new setup, but im not sure if it will really benefit me, i doubt my ic will need the help.

[lagos]

Sweet! Water injection is pretty niffty, at first im not gunna lie, i thought someone was really dumb enough to put washer fluid in the oil or something lol.
I had the same feeling free boosting the ct26 with the larger intercooler. basicly the same effect as water injection because what its doing is cooling the charge more. Id like to try water injection on the new setup, but im not sure if it will really benefit me, i doubt my ic will need the help.

your right, a huge IC would help out a lot too, but its important to remember that WI has certain benefits that no intercooler can achieve. "an intercooler cannot perform in-cylinder cooling". thats a pretty big benefit. its similar to what you would get with running race gas all the time.

[brianforster]

what all did the install involve?

[CilverSeliST205]

im going to run washer fluid all year round. it contains about 40% meth and 60% water. the water helps cool, while the meth adds oxygen and fuel to it (at least thats how i understand it). so its best to run a mix of meth and water for best results, which you get with cheap washer fluid.

Yes water does absorb heat, however the injecting alcohol increases overall octane of fuel combusted

I am planing on getting a meth injection kit that will come on progressivley from 8 psi, hopefully i can turn 93 into 95 octane like my ecu was designed for, untill i get my PFC datalogit and tune it for. Maybe with 100% methanol injection you can add enough advance to make 93 act like 100 octane ? if i could run 18 psi on race gas safely, i should be able to do so with proper injection and tune.

Congrats, results seem promising!

[quicknstyle]

forgive me for my noobness, but i always thought water injections was when u sprayed the intercooler to further lower the temperature of the air. but by this i guess it something that you actuall inject with the fuel??? im at work so cant read the links, but how does this work? i can understand the reasoning to use methanol because it burns much cooler than gas, but is this really something that you inject with fuel? and is it safe for continued use over a long period of time?

[lagos]

im going to run washer fluid all year round. it contains about 40% meth and 60% water. the water helps cool, while the meth adds oxygen and fuel to it (at least thats how i understand it). so its best to run a mix of meth and water for best results, which you get with cheap washer fluid.

Yes water does absorb heat, however the injecting alcohol increases overall octane of fuel combusted

I am planing on getting a meth injection kit that will come on progressivley from 8 psi, hopefully i can turn 93 into 95 octane like my ecu was designed for, untill i get my PFC datalogit and tune it for. Maybe with 100% methanol injection you can add enough advance to make 93 act like 100 octane ? if i could run 18 psi on race gas safely, i should be able to do so with proper injection and tune.

Congrats, results seem promising!

you can run 100% meth on this kit as well as buy a progressive controller for it. but, from what ive read, you'll get the best results by using a 50/50 mix. the meth for the octain, and the water for cooling the boost charge.

forgive me for my noobness, but i always thought water injections was when u sprayed the intercooler to further lower the temperature of the air. but by this i guess it something that you actuall inject with the fuel??? im at work so cant read the links, but how does this work? i can understand the reasoning to use methanol because it burns much cooler than gas, but is this really something that you inject with fuel? and is it safe for continued use over a long period of time?

your thinking of an intercooler sprayer. water injection sprays the water inside of on engine to lower the cyinder temps as well as raise the octain level of your fuel. this lets you run more boost, and more timing advance and provides great knock protection. its totally safe to use. read the links when you can to learn more about it.

what all did the install involve?

its pretty simple.

you mount a tank (or use your washer tank),
install the pump,
wire in a realy,
drill and tap a hole for the nozzle
wire in the presure switch and connect it to a vac line.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 12, 2007 - 12:44 PM

[quicknstyle]

wow, this is pretty neat... so im assuming you can also wire the pump in with the boost controller or something to engage when you hit a certain boost level huh? bad ass, also, would this be of any use for a na motor? or primarily for fi because of detonation and all

[lagos]

wow, this is pretty neat... so im assuming you can also wire the pump in with the boost controller or something to engage when you hit a certain boost level huh? bad ass, also, would this be of any use for a na motor? or primarily for fi because of detonation and all

see the brass switch in the last pic? thats a simple pressure switch that you hook up to a vac line. then you turn the dial on it to set it to what boost level you want it to start spraying at. this way, it only starts to spray under hugh boost and high load conditions. i have mine set to start at around 10psi.

water injection is really meant for turbo or supercharged cars. on an NA car, it wouldnt really benefit it much unless the motor was very build up, high compressor, lots of timing advance...etc..etc... you would also need to find some type of WOT switch to activate it, because the boost pressure switch would do nothing on an NA motor...... in other words.... for your normal 7afe, 5sfe, it will pretty much have no benefits.

[quicknstyle]

i was thinking more along the lines for a buddies k24, but i see the point... wow, another gift for me to buy for my swap im prepping for

[Hanyo]

good job lagos, bring in great info to the 6gc community.


i've always loved water injection kit.

[easternpiro1]

WOW LAGOS! ive been looking for a good power adder.... you say you can run up to 16psi how many more pounds is that than before? im thinking around 5psi, so youre saying that if i install this, i can run around? (stock is 15 for me)








*passes out*

[lagos]

i was running around 13-14psi before with safc street tuning. now i can run 16-17psi with no safc adjustments and no knock. but thats just to give you a basic example. im going to the dyno this weekend and i should have some before and after comparisons to see the exact gains it gave me.

as far as your car (or anyone else), i cant tell you what you could turn the boost up to. you really have to take your car to a dyno to see how it runs at the 15psi you have it set to now, and then decide whats best for you from there. even if your stock boost is 15psi, that doesn't mean that your car will run perfectly on our lower octain pump gas. if thats the case (as was with my car) then water injection SHOULD help you out in a big way. you could probably even turn the boost up some more beyond that, but its something that i would only do if i had a way to monitor what my car was doing at all times. i have a wideband and a way to monitor knock response. so im using those to see how far i should push things.

so basically, if i were you, i would:

1: take the car to a dyno. see how far you can turn up the boost before getting knock response.
2. get water injection. you might gain HP from it, or you might stay at the same power level. but either way, it will make the car a million times safer and allow you to run more boost safely.
3. think about getting at least an egt gauge and doing the knock led mod.
4. go back to the dyno and see what you gained.

[jgreening]

water injection sprays the water inside of on engine to lower the cyinder temps as well as raise the octain level of your fuel. this lets you run more boost, and more timing advance and provides great knock protection. its totally safe to use.

Well, this is a bit of an overstatement.

The risk with running water injection is that people can tune for it, run crappier gas, or push their cars past safe limits. Then, if the system malfunctions for some reason, knock will occur and could lead to detonation.

Also, don't forget that pushing your car harder even when the system is working properly will tend to cause greater wear and shorten the life of your engine - its just the nature of high performance cars.

These concerns would not persuade me to shy away from water injection. In fact, I think its use is a great idea (even better in an MR2 with crappy intercooling) - particularly on the stock ECU. However, to state that its "totally safe to use" is probably a bit misleading.

[jcbass7]

Art, you never cease to amaze me. I love how much you care about your engine, it has rubbed off on me and makes me want to protect it more than push it

[lagos]

water injection sprays the water inside of on engine to lower the cyinder temps as well as raise the octain level of your fuel. this lets you run more boost, and more timing advance and provides great knock protection. its totally safe to use.

Well, this is a bit of an overstatement.

The risk with running water injection is that people can tune for it, run crappier gas, or push their cars past safe limits. Then, if the system malfunctions for some reason, knock will occur and could lead to detonation.

Also, don't forget that pushing your car harder even when the system is working properly will tend to cause greater wear and shorten the life of your engine - its just the nature of high performance cars.

These concerns would not persuade me to shy away from water injection. In fact, I think its use is a great idea (even better in an MR2 with crappy intercooling) - particularly on the stock ECU. However, to state that its "totally safe to use" is probably a bit misleading.

yes, your totally right. what i meant was that it was totally safe to inject washer fluid into your motor and that it will make your motor safer by offering cooler cylinder temps. how far you push the setup after that, is all up to you.

Art, you never cease to amaze me. I love how much you care about your engine, it has rubbed off on me and makes me want to protect it more than push it

thanks dog!

[southwest2118]

hey i wanna put something like that on my 7afte ........havent been on the interweb in a minute .....but I'm back.....where can i get that pressure switch and a water pump i wanna do everything my self....but need those two things ........and when that pressure switch is activated is that water pump also kick on or just the sprayer solenoid or am i just making things up?


i need details lagos

[lagos]

your best bet is to buy that kit. at 200bucks, it will cost you very close to the same price to try to do a home made setup.

if anyone wants to buy a kit from those guys, here is a 10% off code you can try to use at check out. code: 2d4afa
im not sure if it will still work or not, but its worth a shot. youll save like 20bucks off the kit.

regardless... you can get the pump and all the parts you need from their website. they even have the instructions online, so you can see how the whole system works
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/

[rzanology]

yea it still works...manny gave it to me to use and it took it...saved $32 off the universal kit and 2 quart tank

[southwest2118]

hey lagos on that pump can that pressure regulator be taken out? because i was thinking about getting something like this.XXXXXXXX and adjusting the pressure to like 100 psi and buying the pressure switch,and nozzle from alcohol-injection.com then getting everything else from somewhere else.

oh i've been away for a while ....what are u using to control fuel?....

This post has been edited by southwest2118: Jan 26, 2007 - 5:40 PM

[lagos]

i dont think that pump has enough flow and some of those pumps cant be used with meth (washer fluid).


the pump in the kit is also a shureflow pump. so if you can find the same exact model from another place, then you could use that. but why take the risk? at best, you could probably save 30-40bucks? or you could just avoid the headache by buying something that is made to work with meth and has been used by a large amount of people.

[eggman40]

Congrats on the set up Lagos Ive been reading more and more about Wi and how its supposed to be really good for turbocharged motors. At first the thought of putting water in the engine made me cringe but seeing you and manny run it with good results is starting to win me over...



I had a few questions about the kit... How long does your tank of fluid last you? I know there are variables but an estimate of a weeks worth of driving to school, work, etc. and hit 10psi occasionaly on the freeway?



second... can you use this out of the box? or do you need to tune it in professionally? I kinda want to get all my upgrades done before taking it to a dyno... that way i dont have to keep going back. but could i use it before then?



thanks for any help... Its realy appriciated

[Steevo]

E-85 will do the trick also.



It has a higher octane rating or knock resistance due to the fact that it takes MORE to do the same job that gasoline would. But with more you also get a better cooling effect and the detonation issue is less.





But yar. Alot of guys I know running water injection systems either go with washer fluid or buy off brand gas line antifreeze and mix it with water. They guys who mix seem to have the better result, and those that change over to Ethenol injection doing a marginal amount better, but it has a bit higher expense.


A+ on doing it.

[lagos]

Congrats on the set up Lagos Ive been reading more and more about Wi and how its supposed to be really good for turbocharged motors. At first the thought of putting water in the engine made me cringe but seeing you and manny run it with good results is starting to win me over...



I had a few questions about the kit... How long does your tank of fluid last you? I know there are variables but an estimate of a weeks worth of driving to school, work, etc. and hit 10psi occasionaly on the freeway?



second... can you use this out of the box? or do you need to tune it in professionally? I kinda want to get all my upgrades done before taking it to a dyno... that way i dont have to keep going back. but could i use it before then?



thanks for any help... Its realy appriciated

how long it lasts will very on the size of tank that you buy, how soon your injection kicks on, and how often you boost. i figure somewhere around 2-4 weeks, depending on those factors. its about 3 weeks since i installed mine, and im just about getting ready to refill it again.

you don't need any tuning for this. just install it and you'll be good to go. but, you might not see any gains from it untill you crank up your boost. if your car is at 10psi now, with WI, youll be able to turn that up to at least 15psi (with a fmic!). ive seen as much as 18psi, with no knock. but keep in mind that anything over 15psi is a bit risky and you shouldnt do it untill you visit a dyno to see how things are running.

This post has been edited by lagos: Jan 30, 2007 - 3:35 PM

[Coomer]

Good stuff.

[CilverSeliST205]

Why isnt this thread in the stickies yet? along with presure's thread...

[presure2]

Why isnt this thread in the stickies yet? along with presure's thread...

because both are, "hey i just installed this" not how tos.
one or both of us im sure will do a full write up eventually that will be in there.

[eggman40]

how long it lasts will very on the size of tank that you buy, how soon your injection kicks on, and how often you boost. i figure somewhere around 2-4 weeks, depending on those factors. its about 3 weeks since i installed mine, and im just about getting ready to refill it again.

you don't need any tuning for this. just install it and you'll be good to go. but, you might not see any gains from it untill you crank up your boost. if your car is at 10psi now, with WI, youll be able to turn that up to at least 15psi (with a fmic!). ive seen as much as 18psi, with no knock. but keep in mind that anything over 15psi is a bit risky and you shouldnt do it untill you visit a dyno to see how things are running.

Perfect thats exactly what i wanted to know. 2 to 3 weeks sounds fair enough... i just didnt want it to be something that would rip right through in 2 or 3 days... even though its has potential to do so



Looks like i have something to save up for thanks a lot for the input Lagos

[OOBE]

That is very nice. I've been wanting one for a long time but my 7A keeps pulling hard at 15 psi. Wouldn't hurt to have it on, still.