Few issues Options

[Defgeph]

From the begining of my swap I've had low vac issues. I replaced hoses tightened everything up capped off holes.

I eliminated my AC and power steering. I have the hose for the AC idle up capped. Would I be better off capping the two PS vac lines?(current setup) Or should I connect them to each other with a hose. I'm close to having full vac, but its still alittle off.

Second thing, when I slow down and put the car into neutral the RMP's dip way below normal idle. After running at like say 650-750 rpm for a few seconds, it raises back to 1000 where its been since the begining of this project. Sometimes the car stalls, I looking for some suggestions or ideas.

I've checked timing, its set at 10d's.


Thanks guys

[95celgt]

man, for some reason my 3s has crappy vac as well, when I did the re-build i changed every vac hose and it still sucks, when i turn it on its only at 10vac and once it warms up the best it does is 15 vac, so im still trying to figure out if the ecu or something like a vsv or afm can affect it this bad........

[lagos]

did you ever do a boost leak test?

[alltracman78]

A boost leak won't affect idle quality at all.
A vacuum leak will however.

Jeff, if you join those 2 hoses you will raise your idle.
One gets air from before the TB [intake hose] while the other runs off the intake manifold.
Basically you will be creating a second ISC valve, but with no valve.

For both of you, how does the needle in the gauge look?
Is it steady at low pressure or does it jump around some?

If it's steady it's more of a general problem, such as a weak coil, or vacuum leak. Or a worn out engine.
If it's jumping around it's more likely to be from 1 cylinder, such as a bad plug, worn ring, or bad seal on a valve.

[lagos]

A boost leak won't affect idle quality at all.
A vacuum leak will however.

a boost leak test will find leaks in the system. from vac lines to IC couplers. any vac/boost leaks on a 3s will play a big role in how the car idles, because youll always be sucking in air that the afm cant account for.

[x_itchy_b_x]

A boost leak won't affect idle quality at all.
A vacuum leak will however..

That sounds like an oxymoron,

Jeff, what is your vacuum at idle? it should be around 18-20 Hg with stock cams.
I only have 10 Hg vacuum at idle but thats because of the cams.
also if your going by the marks on the crack to determine timing it might be wrong.
my crank pulley was around 4 degrees off from tdc.
But it does sound like a boost/vacuum leak ( Depending if you boosting or at idle )

[Defgeph]

I've done the boost leak test. I'm almost sure I dont have any major leaks. I have a very small leak now. I just cant seem to find it.

Whats funny is that I disconnected my Autometer boost gauge. After that my vac was perfect. I went for a ride boosted alittle, came back my vac was in its current state. Just a little off.

Freakin weird man. I can't seem to shake this vac issue.

[Defgeph]

John, at this point I'm not sure what my vac is.

The reason why, I disconnected my Autometer boost guage. Leaving me with the Greddy boost controller reading my vac and boost pressures. The problem is the Greddy reads in some system I'm not familiar with

It reads between -95 to -99. -99 is perfect vac. But it fluxuates between those numbers. Its never solid on one number.

[lagos]

when you did your boost leak test, how many psi of air were you able to fill it up to? did you spray everything down with soapy water and watch for bubbles?

there is a very strong chance that the leak is coming from the boost gauge. the nylon hose can crack during installation or your compression fittings might be leaking. another thing to check for is your intake piping, the idle hose that leads all the way to the throttle body, or your distributor oring. those can be tricky to find.

[Defgeph]

when you did your boost leak test, how many psi of air were you able to fill it up to? did you spray everything down with soapy water and watch for bubbles?

20 psi I sprayed everything with soapy water. After I was done I could only hear a very faint hiss from one of the valves on the throttle body. I can't remember the name of this valve at this time, my brain is not working today. I heard that was normal to have some air coming from there.

After I removed the Autometer with the nylon line, the vac was perfect. After a quick ride it fell a few numbers to like -95 -97. I should be at -99.

[Defgeph]

Anybody have a vac diagram of a jdm 3sgte ? The celicatech BGB has usdm.

[lagos]

have you checked the rubber hose right under the throttle body that goes to the idle valve?
you should also try disconnecting the harness plug that goes to that valve while the car is running, to see if your idle goes up. if it doesn't, then the valve or rubber hose going to it is the problem.

another thing to take a look at is your throttle position sensor. . if thats not plugged in or has been messed with, youll get high idle and that in turn will mess with your vac reading.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 7, 2007 - 10:21 AM

[Defgeph]

have you checked the rubber hose right under the throttle body that goes to the idle valve?

I dont know, I might have. I wish I had a JDM vac diagram so I can point out everything that I changed and things I capped off. I'm just not sure if I changed it with out looking at the engine. The engine is kinda far away right now.

I know I changed one fat hose under the TB that connects to the vac pipe. There is only three hoses on the bottom of the TB two for coolant and one for vac right ?

Isnt there a way to test it ? The TPS.

[lagos]

there are bgb multimeter tests for the tps you can do.

if your ever around my way with your car, you can stop by and ill try to help you figure it out.

[Defgeph]

there are bgb multimeter tests for the tps you can do.

if your ever around my way with your car, you can stop by and ill try to help you figure it out.

Organize a meet you lazy mofo.

[x_itchy_b_x]

http://opc.mr2oc.com/online_parts_catalog/...sgteVacuum1.gif
Thats what i found, hope that helps ya. its usdm but just pretend the egr system is gone.
that leak you heard is the ISC is normal.

[lagos]

there are bgb multimeter tests for the tps you can do.

if your ever around my way with your car, you can stop by and ill try to help you figure it out.

Organize a meet you lazy mofo.

Jeff's Idle Problem Meet:

place: my house
Time: whenever
Attending: 1. defgeph

[Defgeph]

[Defgeph]

Ok I think I have this right. Some of these things I dont know what they are. They are circled. The ones with red X's are removed and vac source for thos items are capped off as close to the manifold as possible.

[lagos]

you charcole canister should not be vented to the atmosphere. it should go back to one of the hard lines that goes to the tank.

the vac valve to the right is actually your tvis system. its on the back of the intake manifold .

[Defgeph]

you charcole canister should not be vented to the atmosphere. it should go back to one of the hard lines that goes to the tank.

the vac valve to the right is actually your tvis system. its on the back of the intake manifold .

Maybe this vented port on the canister is my problem then. The stuff on the back of the manifold is intact. Whats TVS and jet ?

new page

[lagos]

i dont know about tvs and jet. jet seems like a filter, and tvs seems to be a valve, but ive never seen them on my car before. might be a usdm specific thing.

if i were you, i would take all the vac lines for the canister off and cap the nipple on the engine to see if it helps. it does sound like it could be the cause of your problems.

This post has been edited by lagos: May 7, 2007 - 11:05 AM

[Defgeph]

I'll give it a shot.

Being that I removed my AC. IIRC I had a plug on the idle up valve, should jump this plug or modify my harness in some way ?
I know mine is not the screw type you have, it was electronic.



Also are there any companies out there that make metal vacuum T's. I don't trust the plastic T's I have anymore.

[lagos]

if you dont have ac, then you should just totally remove that valve and cap everything on the motor.

[x_itchy_b_x]

I have all the tvis, tvsv, Power steering, and AC idle up valves, all unplugged both hose and harness ways. no codes or weird running conditions.

I agree with Lagos about the canister. maybe the canister itself is punctured?

[Defgeph]

All the AC parts are removed. I'm talking about the wiring to the idle up valve. I was wondering if that needed to be modified because I removed the item it was plugged into to.


Maybe the can has a hole, I believe its the original. I didnt swap over the canister from my clip. I just hope this solves my vac and idling issues.

[lagos]

you dont have to do anything with the wiring.

[brianforster]

also i never trust the readings of vacuum on my boost controller, ive seen anywhere from -78 to -99 and every time i check my vac with a boost gauge its always right at 20hg warmed up.

before i did my manifold work (gasket + stud replacement + resurfacing) i got -98/99 every time, then i put it back and got low 90's, now im getting mid to high 80's, sometimes it goes to 96 or so again.. its so inconsistent.

yet every time i bring out the boost gauge i get a 20hg reading

[Defgeph]

Brian, whats the brand name of this inconsistent boost controller ?

[presure2]

jeff the 3rd hose under your TB is your idle control valve hose.
the other 2 are coolant lines, like you said.
guys say when you do the leak test to clamp off that hose.
your boost gauge is mechanical, right?
start the car up, and connect the gauge right in the bay, with a nice short hose and check the readings.

[Defgeph]

your boost gauge is mechanical, right?
start the car up, and connect the gauge right in the bay, with a nice short hose and check the readings.

I'll also be trying that Saturday. I'm not happy with the little tiny nylon hose.

I think I'm going to re-replace that hose under the TB.
Can anyone tell me the size of the hose so I can preorder it and have the correct size ?

[presure2]

Item Number MSRP Core Price Price
1734188381 $16.52 $0.00 $12.56

HOSE, AIR, NO.1
thats the PT# off the epc, jeff.

[brianforster]

Brian, whats the brand name of this inconsistent boost controller ?

its a greddy profec II spec B

my experience has led me to believe that the -XX vac reading means pretty much nothing, as it changes so much, and my friend with the same controller gets the same inconsistency

[lagos]

Brian, whats the brand name of this inconsistent boost controller ?

its a greddy profec II spec B

my experience has led me to believe that the -XX vac reading means pretty much nothing, as it changes so much, and my friend with the same controller gets the same inconsistency

your not always going to get exactly the same vac. everything from engine temp, outside temp, and rpm can result in slightly different readings. what you have to do is figure out how to convert the -99 to a normal vac reading. youll probably find that the difference is something along the lines of 20.0 -20.9 vac.

[Defgeph]

This boost controller Is a real PITA

I have another pic. I have two vac lines circled, they are both capped off. So what could my charcoal canister be hooked up to ? I know its connected to something. Damn man, I really wish I lived closer to my car.

[Defgeph]

I tryed converting KPA to figure out what -99 actually means. I'm getting nowhere near 20hg. Anyone wanna take a shot.

[alltracman78]

a boost leak test will find leaks in the system. from vac lines to IC couplers. any vac/boost leaks on a 3s will play a big role in how the car idles, because youll always be sucking in air that the afm cant account for.

A boost leak won't affect idle quality at all.
A vacuum leak will however..

That sounds like an oxymoron.

It's actually not.
A boost leak is when you have positive pressure leaking OUT of the engine system.
A vacuum leak is when you have negative pressure leaking out [air is getting sucked in]
Two totally different things.
A boost leak CANNOT cause idle problems because there is no boost at idle [3SGTE specific here].
A vacuum leak can and will cause problems at idle.

Most of the time if you have one, it will turn into the other once conditions change [from positive to negative pressure].
But it DOESN'T always happen that way. Sometimes an opening will only leak under one or the other.
A BOV/BPV is a perfect example. It's a [controlled] boost leak. As long as it's working right, it won't leak under vacuum [yes I know engine vacuum is used to help open it, but with a weaker spring it wouldn't be needed, and it's on the opposite side of the valve].
With rubber/silicone hoses you can have a cut or opening that will be forced closed by one condition [boost/vac] but forced open by the other.

In addition to this, boost leaks are normally check after the turbo.
Which totally ignores the AFM and hoses between it and the turbo.
And as most of you probably know, with the stock 3SGTE intake hoses there is a very common problem with the hose to the turbo cracking on the bottom.
With a normal boost check this would be ignored.

Which is why I differentiated the two.



A couple of other things, in no particular order.

The JDM vacuum routing is actually quite different than USDM.
Differences include
no EGR
different TB hose routing
different ac hose routing
different charcoal canister hose routing

The charcoal canister DOES and IS supposed to vent to atmosphere.....
There are 3 lines.
one from the fuel tank
one to the TVV [USDM] or VSV [JDM]
one to the vent [vents right above the side to side crossmember]

The TVV is a Thermal Vacuum Valve, AKA a BVSV or Bimetal Vacuum Switching Valve. It is a thermally controlled valve. When it gets hot [in this particular case] it opens, allowing the engine to suck fumes from the charcoal canister.
JDM 3SGTEs don't have this. They have a VSV [electronic] on the side of their smaller charcoal canister.

As long as you have 18 - 22 in/hg you are fine.
Book says 15 - 22 in/hg, but IMO anything below 18 is a bit questionable.
Mine raised from 20 in/hg to 22 in/hg just by adding a MSD ignition.

So your first step is to get a GOOD pressure gauge and see where you're at.
If I can remember I'll bring mine from work on the 19th.
I'll show you the vacuum routing then too, I don't have a book diagram, but I have a 100% RC set at work right now.

[Culpable04]

I tryed converting KPA to figure out what -99 actually means. I'm getting nowhere near 20hg. Anyone wanna take a shot.

-99 Kpa is -742.561 mmHg ?!?!

I did it 3 times

the 1st by hand didn't believe it so did it 2 more times with the calculator

is that what you're getting ?

I don't think that's the correct vacuum reading

[lagos]

alltracman78.... i think what itchy was trying to say is that anything that leaks vac at idle will leak boost when you are boosting. so if the vac line for your powersteering is leaking at idle, it will also leak at boost. thats why we consider boost/vac least to mean pretty much the same thing.

[devilsden97]

just read on

This post has been edited by devilsden97: May 7, 2007 - 10:45 PM

[x_itchy_b_x]

meh, i didn't mean to split hairs.
generally a vacuum leak is a boost leak and vice versa.
I found a hg/kpa calculator
http://www.shender4.com/pressure.htm
-99 kpa is 29.23 Hg and 14.36 psi. so, is that gauge giving you atmospheric pressure?

[devilsden97]

itchy. i didnt get 29.23 hg


i got.


-9.9 Kpa = -74.2563118 mmHg = -.0742563118 Hg = -1.4358737 PSI (all assumed at 0°C)
-99 kpa = -742.563118 mmHg = -.742563118 Hg = -14.358737 PSI (all assumed at 0°C)


to get 20hg

20hg = 26.6644 Kpa (again assuming at 0°C)


edit: moved my decimal incorrectly

http://online.unitconverterpro.com/unit-co...a/pressure.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

another site:

-9.9 kpa = -74.2561065876959 mmHg (at 0°C) = -.0742561065876959 Hg = -1.4358736035269995 PSI
-99 kpa = -742.561065876959 mmHg (at 0°C) = -.742561065876959 Hg = -14.358736035269995 PSI

btw i used: http://www.digitaldutch.com/unitconverter/


edit: adjusted from brians post below.

This post has been edited by devilsden97: May 7, 2007 - 10:35 PM

[brianforster]

it would be important to note here that the gauge is reading -9.9, not -99, there is a decimal just like when you read boost (i assume you have yours set to read in PSI, like mine, jeff)

This post has been edited by brianforster: May 7, 2007 - 10:26 PM

[devilsden97]

so move the decimal over one place to the right.

This post has been edited by devilsden97: May 7, 2007 - 10:25 PM

[alltracman78]

alltracman78.... i think what itchy was trying to say is that anything that leaks vac at idle will leak boost when you are boosting. so if the vac line for your powersteering is leaking at idle, it will also leak at boost. thats why we consider boost/vac least to mean pretty much the same thing.

meh, i didn't mean to split hairs.
generally a vacuum leak is a boost leak and vice versa

I was trying to split hairs.
That's what you have to do when you're trying to figure out a difficult problem.
While a vacuum leak generally will also be a boost leak, it's not ALWAYS so.
That's why I said what I said....

I found a hg/kpa calculator
http://www.shender4.com/pressure.htm
-99 kpa is 29.23 Hg and 14.36 psi. so, is that gauge giving you atmospheric pressure?

It's actually negative 29.23 in/hg and negative 14.36 PSI.
Which means while it's the correct conversion, it's not the right reading.
There is no way his engine is pulling 29 in/hg......


So bottom line, the first thing that needs to be done is get a correct vacuum reading.
Otherwise we're just pissing in the wind as they say.

[alltracman78]

it would be important to note here that the gauge is reading -9.9, not -99, there is a decimal just like when you read boost (i assume you have yours set to read in PSI, like mine, jeff)

that wouldn't make much sense though....

-9.9 KPA is -2.9xx in/hg.
Which isn't even close to what an engine should read.
If you're only pulling that much vacuum, your engine wont' even be running most likely.
:shrug:
dunno, I don't have the gauge in front of me, nor am I a physics/math major.

-99 makes sense because vacuum gauges normally read down to 30 in/hg [negative].
If it is reading that, it just means the gauge is reading [incorrectly] to it's lowest reading.

[brianforster]

it would be important to note here that the gauge is reading -9.9, not -99, there is a decimal just like when you read boost (i assume you have yours set to read in PSI, like mine, jeff)

that wouldn't make much sense though....

-9.9 KPA is -2.9xx in/hg.
Which isn't even close to what an engine should read.
If you're only pulling that much vacuum, your engine wont' even be running most likely.
:shrug:
dunno, I don't have the gauge in front of me, nor am I a physics/math major.

-99 makes sense because vacuum gauges normally read down to 30 in/hg [negative].
If it is reading that, it just means the gauge is reading [incorrectly] to it's lowest reading.

thats because when you change the greddy to read in PSI, the - is no longer reading in KPA, im not sure what it reads in, ive been trying to find out through google but have had no such luck.

it somehow is reading in negative PSI, because -9.9 psi is -20.1589183 hg

This post has been edited by brianforster: May 7, 2007 - 10:35 PM

[devilsden97]

itchy and Brian, how did u get SUCH different numbers for mmHg/Hg as Stevenson, and I. We both agree that the numbers we have are correct. (i have since done it out on my own, and obtained the same answer as the converter)


im betting the ranch on a faulty gauge/poor connection.

Good luck Jeff.

edit:
i got: -9.9 PSI = -511.979225 mmHg or -.511979225 Hg


WTF is going on.

This post has been edited by devilsden97: May 7, 2007 - 10:41 PM

[brianforster]

for every 1 number that our gauge is reading (-99 vs -98) there is a 0.20 in/hg difference.

so the original problem (sometimes it says 95 sometimes it says 99) is not a big deal cause thats a difference of .8 in/hg.

its just easier to panic when you have a digital readout versus a needle on your gauge.

[brianforster]

itchy and Brian, how did u get SUCH different numbers for mmHg/Hg as Stevenson, and I. We both agree that the numbers we have are correct. (i have since done it out on my own, and obtained the same answer as the converter)


im betting the ranch on a faulty gauge/poor connection.

Good luck Jeff.

edit:
i got: -9.9 PSI = -511.979225 mmHg or -.511979225 Hg


WTF is going on.

-511.979225 millimeters of mercury = -20.1589731 inches of mercury

i think when most of us say HG we mean inches of mercury because thats what boost gauges read in, and you and stevenson were not calculating inches of mercury.

This post has been edited by brianforster: May 7, 2007 - 10:50 PM

[devilsden97]

^really?

edit:

-511.979225 mmHg = -20.156662401553305 inHg...


well ill be.

wow so units DO matter.


edit: when u said "Hg" brian i was assuming you ment, meters of Hg, like my conversion was. not Inches.

This post has been edited by devilsden97: May 7, 2007 - 10:52 PM

[alltracman78]

it would be important to note here that the gauge is reading -9.9, not -99, there is a decimal just like when you read boost (i assume you have yours set to read in PSI, like mine, jeff)

that wouldn't make much sense though....

-9.9 KPA is -2.9xx in/hg.
Which isn't even close to what an engine should read.
If you're only pulling that much vacuum, your engine wont' even be running most likely.
:shrug:
dunno, I don't have the gauge in front of me, nor am I a physics/math major.

-99 makes sense because vacuum gauges normally read down to 30 in/hg [negative].
If it is reading that, it just means the gauge is reading [incorrectly] to it's lowest reading.

thats because when you change the greddy to read in PSI, the - is no longer reading in KPA, im not sure what it reads in, ive been trying to find out through google but have had no such luck.

it somehow is reading in negative PSI, because -9.9 psi is -20.1589183 hg

Ah, that makes sense.

It would help if I had one of these in front of me.

[brianforster]

i understand, it was a misunderstanding, but now that its cleared up we can all rest easy knowing that each tick on our readout (atleast on the greddy gauge) isnt a big deal cause its pretty much a fluctuation which we wouldn't even notice on the needle.

[Defgeph]

Brian, I'm wrong. I think your on the money with -9.9 psi. From what I've seen in that converter it makes sense. I could swear I heard or read somewhere that it reads negative pressure in KPA

Jeremy, I can't wait to hook up with ya man. Another gauge sounds great dude

[lagos]

greddy really did a crappy job with this thing, huh?

[brianforster]

not crappy , just lazy, its the same solenoid as the type S, and the tuning capabilities are phenomenal, its just the display of boost/vac i think was a little rushed, if you leave it in KPA it makes sense, but if you try to turn it to psi you get confused because it starts giving you a - psi reading.

[Defgeph]

I'm going to swap in some new plugs (bkr7e) this weekend and check out all of my ignition parts make sure they look ok.

Also going to check out my Autometer. Find out if its the gauge or the line leaking. I'll be replacing the Vac line under the TB as well.

Anything else I should look for ?

Thanks guys

[alltracman78]

Spray starting fluid around any suspected leaks.
If your idle raises, you have a leak.
Be careful though, it's really flammable.

[Defgeph]

Spray starting fluid around any suspected leaks.
If your idle raises, you have a leak.
Be careful though, it's really flammable.

Thanks Jeremy! I got a box with your name on it brother.

[Defgeph]

Update:

I checked the boost gauge as suggested by Manny. It turns out the nylon line connected the the boost gauge was leaking. I always hated this nylon line.

So I replaced it with a rubber hose. The vac reading is now normal on the Autometer. The Greddy on the other hand is still fluctuating. Funny huh?

I did a spark plug change, Still ran alittle rough at times(idle after boosting) but doesnt stall anymore. So I think after a regap of the plugs I should be all set.

I just dont get way the Greddy's vac readings are all over the place.

But thanks for the help guys, it's running alittle better now.

DEF

[celicast3sgte]

aw man i was kinda curious if that was the case. i had the same problem with my nylon line to my gauge. glad you got it handled though.

[lagos]

Update:

I checked the boost gauge as suggested by Manny. It turns out the nylon line connected the the boost gauge was leaking. I always hated this nylon line.

So I replaced it with a rubber hose. The vac reading is now normal on the Autometer. The Greddy on the other hand is still fluctuating. Funny huh?

I did a spark plug change, Still ran alittle rough at times(idle after boosting) but doesnt stall anymore. So I think after a regap of the plugs I should be all set.

I just dont get way the Greddy's vac readings are all over the place.

But thanks for the help guys, it's running alittle better now.

DEF

good ol autometer strikes again.haha.

you have to remember that the greddy is probably reading a lot more detail then the auto meter. my blitz reads .65-.70kpa depending on time of day, weather, if i have my headlights on , idle speed, etc... when you convert that over to vac, its really somewhere around 19-20vac difference.

i hope you dont mean that you want to regap the plugs after you just put them in? the ground strap could break off if you regap after they have been used already.

what rpm is your idle at now?

[Defgeph]

I have a brand new set in the glovebox ready to go in.

My idle is @ 850 rpm. It will fluctuate alittle 700 to 1000. It will hold steady at 1000 or 850. Now its mostly 850. I notice misfire in low loads on the engine.

For example cold engine very mild acceleration. It not accelerating smoothly. I think I may be gapped to wide. It's gapped at 30, I'm going down to 28. This only when its cold. After warm up it goes away.

[lagos]

im gapped at 31 right now on bkr7e's and i dont have the problem.

do you have a wideband installed? that would give you a good idea as to whats going on when the car feels like it does.

[Defgeph]

I have it installed. I have to check what its reading the next time I drive. I can't remember what it was reading at this time.

This started happening after the plug change. This is why I'm leaning toward the plugs.