which 3sgte did you swappers use?, which one? Options

[Andason]

What kind of 3S-GTE did you use? I am thinking about getting one from a ST185 but I remember the problems my cousins All-Trac went through(USDM related??). However it was one mad quick car and I'm close to positive it was abused by previous owners.

[AJcelica]

what sort of problems are you talking about?

and to answer your big question, it all depends on what you want... i assume that if you're going with a swap that you're getting a JDM 3s-gte, basically everyone who's done the swap has done it with the ST185 and this is for a bunch of reasons; cost (cheaper than the ST205), and availability of parts (it's said that the ST185 has more parts readily available but that's questionable because those with the ST205 say that they can use alot of ST185 parts)

Teyaku has done the swap with a ST205 which makes his cool and more original... but most people go with the ST185 because it's a little more practical (no diss the Teyaku who has an awesome vison for his ride IMO)

[Guest_Matthew_*]

unless you have a good source of $$$

i would say to go with the ST185 engine


just like AJ said they are less expensive (but more miles) the parts are more available

now i am doing my swap and i am using the 3rd gen (st205) motor because I am also doing the AWD conversion and it was less expensive to get a ST185 front clip and a ST205 which wouldnt make sense because 5th gen parts on a 6th gen..i dont know if they are compatible as far as suspension and brakes n all that goes but i didnt want to chance it


but since most likely you will stay with FWD i would go with the 2nd gen 3S-GTE

[Supersprynt]

Went with the ST185 (JDM). W/E parts you need you can just go and order them and get them the next day.

Oh and GET A CLIP - trust me on this, months later still sourcing some parts and figuring stuff out. Even if it takes you another 6 months to get more money, you wont regret it - buy the clip!!!!

[Phat_99CeliGT]

what about an Mr2 turbo engine??

would that be easier and cheaper then the ST185??

Less HP maybe??

[Andason]

QUOTE (Phat_99CeliGT @ Aug 3, 2003 - 8:20 AM)

what about an Mr2 turbo engine?? would that be easier and cheaper then the ST185?? Less HP maybe??

That's also kinda what I was asking, would it matter if it was an MR2? They are just as easy to find, but I'm not sure how different everything is because of where the motor is.

[Toyota_guy31783]

how much does a clip from an st185 usually cost?

[AJcelica]

there is a search button here

check the sticky up top of this forum for the feasible engine swaps then scroll down to the bottom.. there are a few places that sell clips

[kuya1284]

MR2's use the same motor... you'll just need to source more parts. I wouldn't recommend going with a MR2 clip. Talk to Dirty on Celica.net. He'll tell you how much of a beyatch it was sourcing parts. There's about 13 different parts that will need to be sourced.

[Chrobis]

I'd say go all the way if your going for it at all. I'd say 205. Everyone is talking about all these parts you would need! What would be so different from a 185 gte engine? And how much stuff are yall replacing so often on your current engines? what makes you think you would need parts so often for your swapped engine? just get a few extra belts no and have em on stock, and I dont know what else you would need!?

edit: all the pumps and altenator and stuff shouldn't be to different from other toyota engines.

This post has been edited by Chrobis: Aug 4, 2003 - 12:04 PM

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (Chrobis @ Aug 4, 2003 - 9:18 AM)

I'd say go all the way if your going for it at all. I'd say 205. Everyone is talking about all these parts you would need! What would be so different from a 185 gte engine? And how much stuff are yall replacing so often on your current engines? what makes you think you would need parts so often for your swapped engine? just get a few extra belts no and have em on stock, and I dont know what else you would need!? edit: all the pumps and altenator and stuff shouldn't be to different from other toyota engines.

- The timing belt b/w a 3rd gen and 2nd gen is a tooth off.
- The water pump does NOT match. You MUST use a 3rd gen water pump with a 3rd gen motor, otherwise using a 2nd gen water pump will cause over heating.
- Wiring harness is more complicated with the 205 than the 185.

Everything else (for the most part) is interchangeable. Good luck trying to get the aforementioned parts. I'm still waiting for my water pump... grrr...

[95STCelica]

QUOTE (kuya1284 @ Aug 4, 2003 - 1:27 PM)

QUOTE (Chrobis @ Aug 4, 2003 - 9:18 AM) I'd say go all the way if your going for it at all. I'd say 205. Everyone is talking about all these parts you would need! What would be so different from a 185 gte engine? And how much stuff are yall replacing so often on your current engines? what makes you think you would need parts so often for your swapped engine? just get a few extra belts no and have em on stock, and I dont know what else you would need!? edit: all the pumps and altenator and stuff shouldn't be to different from other toyota engines. - The timing belt b/w a 3rd gen and 2nd gen is a tooth off. - The water pump does NOT match. You MUST use a 3rd gen water pump with a 3rd gen motor, otherwise using a 2nd gen water pump will cause over heating. - Wiring harness is more complicated with the 205 than the 185. Everything else (for the most part) is interchangeable. Good luck trying to get the aforementioned parts. I'm still waiting for my water pump... grrr...

is the engine worth the down time to you? Like now looking back..i dont think i could go without a car for that long...maybe you have another one not sure just wondering

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (95STCelica @ Aug 4, 2003 - 2:02 PM)

QUOTE (kuya1284 @ Aug 4, 2003 - 1:27 PM) QUOTE (Chrobis @ Aug 4, 2003 - 9:18 AM) I'd say go all the way if your going for it at all. I'd say 205. Everyone is talking about all these parts you would need! What would be so different from a 185 gte engine? And how much stuff are yall replacing so often on your current engines? what makes you think you would need parts so often for your swapped engine? just get a few extra belts no and have em on stock, and I dont know what else you would need!? edit: all the pumps and altenator and stuff shouldn't be to different from other toyota engines. - The timing belt b/w a 3rd gen and 2nd gen is a tooth off. - The water pump does NOT match. You MUST use a 3rd gen water pump with a 3rd gen motor, otherwise using a 2nd gen water pump will cause over heating. - Wiring harness is more complicated with the 205 than the 185. Everything else (for the most part) is interchangeable. Good luck trying to get the aforementioned parts. I'm still waiting for my water pump... grrr... is the engine worth the down time to you? Like now looking back..i dont think i could go without a car for that long...maybe you have another one not sure just wondering

In a word, yes!

I've got big plans...

[scothaniel]

The 3rd gen also has the following changes over the 2nd gen:

lower compression (8.5 vs 8.8)
better turbo
better intercooler
use's MAP instead of AFM
better injectors (540 vs 440)
better trans (not beneficial for FWD cars, but its easy to sell off )
bigger throttle body (3" vs 2")
far better head (a stock 3rd gen had flows as much as a fully ported 2nd gen head)
better intake manifold
stock oil catch can
stock oil filter relocator
better cooling oil pan
better stock ECU

All of the parts listed above are not interchangeable and are not sold in the US. There are also a lot of minor difference between the two engines that can cause problems - wiring harness, sensors, brackets, gaskets, plug wires... you cant even get a valve cover gasket in the US for the 3rd gen without special ordering it from Japan.

The real question is what type of performance you want. If 300HP is a good limit, go with the ST185. If you want more - go with the 205. If you want a LOT more, then it doesn't really matter, because you'll be modifying everything anyways.

In comparing USDM and JDM ST185 engines - the JDM does not have a EGR and the JDM ECU has more aggressive fuel maps. Big deal! You can have a EGR block-off made for the US engine for $20, and I've seen the JDM ECU's for around $100. The only time it matters that the engine is JDM is in the rare occasion that the engine is the ST185RC version, which has the better turbo and better intercooler.

This post has been edited by scothaniel: Aug 5, 2003 - 12:05 PM

[jayi12-15psi]

if you bought a usdm st185 would you still ave to extend the wiring harness?

[kuya1284]

Here's a pretty complete list of the differences:


http://celica.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?u...c;f=37;t=000315

[scothaniel]

When it comes to fitting any 3SGTE into the 6th gen, there will always be harness modifications. The main difference is the Fuse box - I've found it easier to use the stock harness that came with the car and modify it for the engine. You'd be surprised on how similar all Toyota harnesses are. Most of the lines are the same and just need to move relocated at the ECU harness.

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (jayi12-15psi @ Aug 5, 2003 - 9:23 AM)

if you bought a usdm st185 would you still ave to extend the wiring harness?

You won't be able to use a 185 USDM harness with a 185 JDM ECU right out the box. I know that some (maybe even a few) wires need to be rewired.

[Stipt]

Isn't it easy enough to just up the st185 JDM to the same HP as the st205 with just about the same amount of money or even less?

[scothaniel]

The difference between the 205 and 185 HP is only around 45HP, so yes, its really easy to get the 185 to the same HP as the stock 205 for much less then the cost of a 205 motor.

From there though, the 205 is much easier to push to higher HP levels.

This post has been edited by scothaniel: Aug 5, 2003 - 2:10 PM

[Wishful3S-GTE]

Ok, so I've been reading all these posts about which swap to do. I myself just simply like the ST205 more. Now would it be too much to ask for someone to list the minimum required parts to make the ST205 swap? Oh and how hard would it be to make it AWD too?

[AJcelica]

is there any reason you like the st205 more? or does that extra 30 hp just appeal to you? the extra cost for that little (well not little but not big either) gain in power is not worth it IMO

if you get a front clip then you won't have to search for as many parts as if you were to just get the engine/ecu... ask anyone, the front clip is priceless in this situation

to make the car AWD would cost alot... basically you'll have to get the rear clip off an st205 and swap most of the rear end bits...

i'm under the impression that a car which has to be welded together isn't as reliable just keeping it FWD also you'll have to get one of those things that holds the chasis straight so that it doesn't buckle as you're taking it apart/putting it together

[Wishful3S-GTE]

Ok ... thanks for the info. By the way ... the 30 HP doesn't mean much to me, I just simply like the looks of the ST205 better. I know most of you don't give a crap ... but I'm one of those people that likes the looks of their car too. But in any case, thanks. By the way ... what about the engine swap, does it just fit right in or are there any extra parts needed or any that need to be replaced?

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (Wishful3S-GTE @ Aug 5, 2003 - 9:46 PM)

Ok ... thanks for the info. By the way ... the 30 HP doesn't mean much to me, I just simply like the looks of the ST205 better. I know most of you don't give a crap ... but I'm one of those people that likes the looks of their car too. But in any case, thanks. By the way ... what about the engine swap, does it just fit right in or are there any extra parts needed or any that need to be replaced?

The looks? Oh man... $2000 extra is alot just for looks my friend...

As for extra parts, you'll need different things such as a new tranny. Just do a search in the forum... I listed a bunch of stuff that you will/may need...

[Wishful3S-GTE]

Thanks. Yea .... you think I'm crazy to throw money out like that ... but hey ... I think it's worth it and if I'm gonna throw money into a car it better be somethin I really like. But yea .. thanks, I'll do some searchin.

[AJcelica]

the looks of the engine?

dude... with $2000 you could crome a bunch of stuff under the hood on the ST185

do the engines really look that different anyway?

[Wishful3S-GTE]

Nevermind .... I'll drop this. It's pointless, but I still appreciate the help. Thanks.

Signed by

The idiot that likes to waste his money ...

[kuya1284]

QUOTE (AJcelica @ Aug 5, 2003 - 10:36 PM)

the looks of the engine? dude... with $2000 you could crome a bunch of stuff under the hood on the ST185 do the engines really look that different anyway?

No not really... the only significant difference that everyone will notice is the A/W IC... everything else (for the most part) looks practically the same. There are a few subtle (visual) differences... but they pretty much look the same...

*yawn*

[scothaniel]

Yeah, looks wise they are very similar. In fact can you tell them apart (yes these are all 5th gens):








The first question thing I'd have to ask is what type of IC are you going to use - stock top mount or front mount? If you use a top mount, you'll have to get the 205 hood, otherwise you wont get any air to the IC and it will be pretty inefficient. The 185 IC can cook hot dogs after an hour of driving (not joking, we've actually done it once!). The 185RC / 205 IC is far better and more efficient, but it will still heat up with no air flow.

The other option is a front mount, which is really easy to do on the 6th gen's. I bought an IC and all the piping for under $400 (still need to get it welded though). Finding a 205 clip with the full IC system intact is more difficult, and more costly.

I've seen partial clips without the IC, without body panels, and sometimes without the turbo for around $2200. As long as you have the manifold, you can put on any Toyota CT based turbo, or get an adapter for $75 and install a T3 based turbo. With IC, turbo, and body panels expect $4000.

[Stipt]

Nice post scothaniel, I think you summed up this up