2zz swap? Options

[yaj204]

has anyone done or think about doing a 2zz-ge swap to a 99 celica gt? i was looking at my brothers corolla xrs's motor mounts and both the motor mounts seems to be simular.. i think it can be done but will it pass smog and emission test?

[Kadett]

With some custom work it maybe fits but you still need some custom axle's to make it work. The money/trouble involved isn't worth it IMO.

[yaj204]

what do u think is worth the swap than? i heard 96 and up celicas dont pass smog with the 3sgte motor

[Celiracer18]

Considering the 2zz is getting easier to find and its getting cheaper to get, you could do it but whether its worth the cost to swap in or not is the question. if you dont wanna go with a 3S you could go with a 3mzfe v6 or something.

[lagos]

Its a very easy swap actually. You can get it done at just about any car dealership.

[spolski07]

Its a very easy swap actually. You can get it done at just about any car dealership.

what trading your 6gc in for a 7gc gts? lmao

[bccentaur3]

Its a very easy swap actually. You can get it done at just about any car dealership.

what trading your 6gc in for a 7gc gts? lmao

LOL.. But seriously think about it. Doing the 3s swap will give you more bang for the buck. If you get the 2zz motor you're only looking at about maybe 163 to the wheels. But I would have to say when lift kicks in it rocks my socks.

[MaskedMan]

Its a very easy swap actually. You can get it done at just about any car dealership.

what trading your 6gc in for a 7gc gts? lmao

LOL.. But seriously think about it. Doing the 3s swap will give you more bang for the buck. If you get the 2zz motor you're only looking at about maybe 163 to the wheels. But I would have to say when lift kicks in it rocks my socks.

you want VVT-i get a beams, you want an adrenaline rush, it will be 2 large

[yaj204]

i just want to keep toyotas 4 cylinder all motor alive and kicking!! you guys know what i'm saying? i believe the 2zz-ge is one bad ass motor when vvtl-i kicks!! people makes excuses after losing to a turbo car, tire of hearing that **** over and over again!! but thanks for the advices

[Kwanza26]

It can be done... and can be smog legal too... however since you're starting platform is a GT... it's probably easier to stay with the S series motors. The ZZ share more in common with the A series... and even share the same basic tranny...

[j0e_p3t]

^ that means good news for me.

[frosty]

you want VVT-i get a beams, you want an adrenaline rush, it will be 2 large

^^ ^^ (I love korny movie quotes )

i just want to keep toyotas 4 cylinder all motor alive and kicking!! you guys know what i'm saying? i believe the 2zz-ge is one bad ass motor when vvtl-i kicks!! people makes excuses after losing to a turbo car, tire of hearing that **** over and over again!! but thanks for the advices

I agree that the 2zz motor is sweet, (wish the lift was a little more agressive though, a regring could fix that )

But going for an all motor street car that stands a chance of beating a turbo, you would have to perform some seriouse weight reduction to the celi along with the motor build. (as sweet as they look, they're kind-of a porker in weight, especially when compared to something like a civic hatchback.)

2zz is definitly a good all motor choice in my book, but there must be weight reduction to the car!! Otherwise the weight will be your excuse when you get beat by a turbo car.

[Kadett]

I've driven a 7th gen GT-S or T-Sport as its called here in the Netherlands. It was when I still had the 3S-GE in the car so a bit more of fair comparison. I think the engine is just dull. There's nothing in the low revs and then when the VTTLI kicks in a bit of throat scraping up to 7800 rpm and than shift again. Of course it feels fast but thats because Toyota put in a rather short ratio gearbox so the acceleration feeling is higher. I'd rather have my 3S-GE over the 2zz-ge. Maybe it was also due to the fact I hate the 7th gen interior

[lagos]

I really don't understand why anyone would go through the hassle and cost of doing a swap like this when you can just buy a 7th gen GTS. You'll have a newer car, with the motor you want, and WAY better aftermarket support.

[yaj204]

i dont know about the 3sge motor over the 2zz most of the people i know rather pick the 2zz-ge over the 3s-ge i think the lift kicks good enough my brother's xrs went up against a eg with gsr with a b16 head with fully bolt ons and my brother still took him with just a cai and a crappy skunk2 exhaust, much respect for that motor!!unless you're talking about the 3s-gte, that'll be my number one choice for a turbo motor!

[j0e_p3t]

I really don't understand why anyone would go through the hassle and cost of doing a swap like this when you can just buy a 7th gen GTS. You'll have a newer car, with the motor you want, and WAY better aftermarket support.

cuz 6gc exterior>7gc? i'd rather go v6/3s cuz swapping in a motor for only 185 hp doesn't seem worth it.

This post has been edited by j0e_p3t: Nov 30, 2007 - 12:56 PM

[yaj204]

comparing a 2zz and a 3mz its not all about extra cylinders plus 2zz revs up higher

4 cylinder
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b0O0o9tw08Q

v6
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PGGN_6MmPeg

This post has been edited by yaj204: Nov 30, 2007 - 1:02 PM

[Kadett]

I rather have low end torque then high RPM HP. Much better for daily driving.

[frosty]

NEED TORQUE!!!!!!

[02bluerolla]

with headers catback , CAI., powerfc and good tune the 2zzge wakes up its basically like a rsx-s with the same mods except with k-pro.....and might i dare to say this....even faster than the rsx-s :x ... so the 2zz is not a bad motori think its just underrated

[Team_yoda]

if your gonna do a swap in a 6th gen celi then go for the 3s-gte. My brother has a celica gt-s with the 2zz 6sp. Its a great motor but there is no torque. Also that motor is very easy to blow because of the close ratio trans. Lift does kicks ass ill admit. But the motor in general sux unless you start from scratch. Its an all aluminum block with either cast iron or steel insert sleves. so you cant bore it hone it or anything. Stock you can only run 6-7lbs boost cuz it has 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 3s-gte it an amazing swap. You can run stock turbo to 17lbs on rev 3&4 motors. & if you really wanna kill civics do an AWD swap. thats what ima do to mine.

[Kwanza26]

if your gonna do a swap in a 6th gen celi then go for the 3s-gte. My brother has a celica gt-s with the 2zz 6sp. Its a great motor but there is no torque. Also that motor is very easy to blow because of the close ratio trans. Lift does kicks ass ill admit. But the motor in general sux unless you start from scratch. Its an all aluminum block with either cast iron or steel insert sleves. so you cant bore it hone it or anything. Stock you can only run 6-7lbs boost cuz it has 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 3s-gte it an amazing swap. You can run stock turbo to 17lbs on rev 3&4 motors. & if you really wanna kill civics do an AWD swap. thats what ima do to mine.

Anyone who argues "torque" and drives anything with less than 200 ft lbs of torque... doesn't know jack about torque. Torque and horsepower are just two ways of representing the same thing... work rate. You can have all of the torque in the world but if it has a low work rate (horsepower)... it's not gonna be fast. it can sure tow a lot though. Know the difference before you start saying "blah blah blah... no torque". If anything, the 2ZZ being an open deck alluminum block, you can re-sleeve and bore the motor out significantly more than you can a closed deck iron block (such as an S or A series block). Also... you cannot blame the motor for blowing up because of a sh!tty driver mis-shifting at 8000 rpms. That will pretty much blow up any motor...

Anyway... the reason Toyota people don't like the motor is because it works like a Honda VTEC motor. Most Toyota tuners are just biased and preach "torque" this and "torque" that... but fail to realize Horsepower is what wins the race. Why? Gearing. Torque doesn't take as much advantage of gearing in a accelerating situation as horsepower. Everything works together. Granted the 2ZZ is more limited in terms of tuning due to the motor being smaller and already highly tuned from the factory, but that in no way makes it better/worst than any comparable motor.

[yaj204]

if your gonna do a swap in a 6th gen celi then go for the 3s-gte. My brother has a celica gt-s with the 2zz 6sp. Its a great motor but there is no torque. Also that motor is very easy to blow because of the close ratio trans. Lift does kicks ass ill admit. But the motor in general sux unless you start from scratch. Its an all aluminum block with either cast iron or steel insert sleves. so you cant bore it hone it or anything. Stock you can only run 6-7lbs boost cuz it has 11.5:1 compression ratio. The 3s-gte it an amazing swap. You can run stock turbo to 17lbs on rev 3&4 motors. & if you really wanna kill civics do an AWD swap. thats what ima do to mine.

Anyone who argues "torque" and drives anything with less than 200 ft lbs of torque... doesn't know jack about torque. Torque and horsepower are just two ways of representing the same thing... work rate. You can have all of the torque in the world but if it has a low work rate (horsepower)... it's not gonna be fast. it can sure tow a lot though. Know the difference before you start saying "blah blah blah... no torque". If anything, the 2ZZ being an open deck alluminum block, you can re-sleeve and bore the motor out significantly more than you can a closed deck iron block (such as an S or A series block). Also... you cannot blame the motor for blowing up because of a sh!tty driver mis-shifting at 8000 rpms. That will pretty much blow up any motor...

Anyway... the reason Toyota people don't like the motor is because it works like a Honda VTEC motor. Most Toyota tuners are just biased and preach "torque" this and "torque" that... but fail to realize Horsepower is what wins the race. Why? Gearing. Torque doesn't take as much advantage of gearing in a accelerating situation as horsepower. Everything works together. Granted the 2ZZ is more limited in terms of tuning due to the motor being smaller and already highly tuned from the factory, but that in no way makes it better/worst than any comparable motor.

i agree!!

[Kadett]

@Kwanza: You got a point. But still like I said. For daily driving (general use of the car) I'd rather have a shift lazy engine with a bit of low end torque (2k rpm upwards) then having to rev it up a high rpm HP engine to 4k rpm to get anywhere a bit faster.

I know the 3S-GTE (stockwise) doesn't make 200lbs before like 3000-3500rpm. But a swapped (3s) 6th gen is still faster (@ low rpms) then with the 2zz. Even tho the 7th gen has shorter gearing and weighs 170-200lbs lighter then the 6th gen.

[Team_yoda]

Anyone who argues "torque" and drives anything with less than 200 ft lbs of torque... doesn't know jack about torque. Torque and horsepower are just two ways of representing the same thing... work rate. You can have all of the torque in the world but if it has a low work rate (horsepower)... it's not gonna be fast. it can sure tow a lot though. Know the difference before you start saying "blah blah blah... no torque". If anything, the 2ZZ being an open deck alluminum block, you can re-sleeve and bore the motor out significantly more than you can a closed deck iron block (such as an S or A series block). Also... you cannot blame the motor for blowing up because of a sh!tty driver mis-shifting at 8000 rpms. That will pretty much blow up any motor...

Anyway... the reason Toyota people don't like the motor is because it works like a Honda VTEC motor. Most Toyota tuners are just biased and preach "torque" this and "torque" that... but fail to realize Horsepower is what wins the race. Why? Gearing. Torque doesn't take as much advantage of gearing in a accelerating situation as horsepower. Everything works together. Granted the 2ZZ is more limited in terms of tuning due to the motor being smaller and already highly tuned from the factory, but that in no way makes it better/worst than any comparable motor.[quote]


So tell me how i dont know jack about torque? Dude all i said was the the 3s-gte is better cause it has more torque. But it aslo has a top end too. & actually you cant really resleave the 2zz. its a cast iron impregnated aluminum block, you'll ruin it. I work for toyota i know. Have you ever actually driven a celica gt-s 6spd without the TSB tranny updated parts? & Everyone iv talked to loves lift in the 2zz, its not like vtec its better. theres just a very limeted number off parts and there expencive, not to mention the car is a bitch to work on.

[purplegt4]

& actually you cant really resleave the 2zz. its a cast iron impregnated aluminum block, you'll ruin it. I work for toyota i know.

The 2zz-ge actually has an aluminum w/metal matrix composite lined cylinder block. The 1zz has the cast iron liner.

the 2zz was designed to

1. provide high speed performance
2. retain low speed flexibility
3. maintain same bore pitch as base engine (to keep same outer dimensions)
4. maintain same emission standard as base engine target TLEV
5. achieve best power to weight ratio in the field.

2zz is a sporty, compact, lightweight, high power, and flexible engine.

Takasuke Shikida, Yoshikatsu Nakamura, Tamio Nakakubo
and Hiroyuki Kawase. Development of the High Speed 2ZZ-GE Engine 2000-01-0671
_____________________________________

what are 1/4 mi times for a swapped 3s vs the 1/4 mi times for a 7th gen?

7th gen times from newcelica.org
http://www.newcelica.org/other/tracktimes/...?sort=celicagts

from an old web page that toysport has up
http://www.toysport.com/Technical%20Inform..._tech_notes.htm

The aluminum block is hefty and casted really clean. It will allow the engine to produce massive horsepower over stock. Dimensionally they are bigger than the 4AGE, the engine family it is superceding. Block strengthening is possible, by pinning the cylinders to stabilize the bores. The crank is a lightweight design and so are the rods. The crank and rods are casted really well, stress-relief and shot-peen- will produce parts that look forged.

The 2ZZGE has problems. Bent valves from missed shifts have been common. Sticking valve mechanism also cause unscheduled visits to the Toyota Dealers.

Toyota is addressing these problems currently. We have forged pistons in stock and .5mm os available with deeper valve reliefs and a .5 higher compression.

considering i haven't heard of the 2zz being swapped in, i'd really like to see it race a swapped 3s. stock forms of course.

[frosty]

torque gets you ahead of the race, hp just carrys you the last little bit. I would love to have the lift in my car, I just wish the 2zz wasn't a 1.8L.

If there was a stroker kit or if someone found another crank that fits, then I would say it might be worth it. Throw in a nice set of cams, os valves, head jod, and some itb's and look out!

As long as you find this motor for cheap and keep it all cost effective, then I say continue on!

[Team_yoda]

torque gets you ahead of the race, hp just carrys you the last little bit. I would love to have the lift in my car, I just wish the 2zz wasn't a 1.8L.

If there was a stroker kit or if someone found another crank that fits, then I would say it might be worth it. Throw in a nice set of cams, os valves, head jod, and some itb's and look out!

As long as you find this motor for cheap and keep it all cost effective, then I say continue on!

There is a stroker kit out there for it. But your gonna take the longgevity of the motor & throw it out the window.I dont thank iv ever seen cams for it. Aad a port & polish on the head will only give you about 10hp to the crank. If you seriously want da 2zz jus get a 2000 or 2001 celica gt-s. its lighter, you can subtract more wieght easily. Its a high 14sec car stock if you can drive it. & with a few mods you can be down to high 13s

[purplegt4]

isn't that like saying to all the US 3s swappers -> hey, if you want a 3s go get a st185, they have the 3s stock, awd, and it'll be legal.

isn't that the reason ppl come to this site -> to read about a 6g and make their 6g to their liking?

i personally don't like a 7g because of its blindspots, and i like the 6g better, which is why I have one.

[pitcelica]

I think that some of you don't understand what is real HP and real Torque.

Torque is rotational force.

Torque formula :

T = R x F

R = radius (wheel diameter/2 for WHP)
F = Force applied on a certain point at the end of the radius (force applied to the ground) unit is lbs or newton

HP = power (quantity of watt)

Hp come from torque and the only other value that can affect HP for a same torque is RPM

HP formula :

HP = torque (lbs-ft) * RPM/5252

So, supposing a 3sgte : 200 lbs-ft @ 3200 RPM

HP = 200*3200/5252

So, HP @ 3200 RPM = 122HP

So, supposing a 2ZZ : 130lbs-ft @ 6800 RPM

HP = 130*6800/5252

So, HP @ 6800 RPM = 168 HP

Those maths are only example, but I only want to clarify some little things that people don't understand. HP cannot be measured. Torque can be measured. Hp is calculated from torque and RPM.

High torque mean high HP at low RPM

Small torque mean High HP at high RPM

So, now you can make a choice, do you want to have big HP at 8000RPM or do you want more torque = HP appear at lower RPM.

This is only to clarify little things, if I made a mistake or if you think that what I'm saying is wrong, please let me know.

[bccentaur3]

isn't that like saying to all the US 3s swappers -> hey, if you want a 3s go get a st185, they have the 3s stock, awd, and it'll be legal.

isn't that the reason ppl come to this site -> to read about a 6g and make their 6g to their liking?

i personally don't like a 7g because of its blindspots, and i like the 6g better, which is why I have one.

Despite the blind spots, anyone who has driven the 7th gen gts will pick that over a 6th gen. Its not all aesthetic at this point. With the 7th gen gts the more bang for the buck would be to boost it vs swapping in a 3s. Same goes with the 6th gen. Why do the 2zz swap when you can go with the 3s with little modification to the motor mounts. I own both 7th gen and 6th gen. I love the 7th gen because its a gts and with slight mods to the suspension it handles 10X better than the 6th gen. Sure the gts is equipped with the vvtl-i 2zzge motor, but once I get the 3s into the 94 gt, I'll end up forgetting about the 7th gen. Why? Because BOOST is like sex.

[Kadett]

Why? Because BOOST is like sex.

You just cant have enough of it

This post has been edited by Kadett: Dec 12, 2007 - 11:13 AM

[GriffGirl]

Why? Because BOOST is like sex.

You just cant have enough of it

But you'll still need to take a little blue pill for it when you get old. And I won't even GO there about all the lubricants that are already required.