96 prism sleeper build Options

[do7d]

before i even start this- i know there's a lot of cars that are faster and a lot cooler than the prism. i've grown rather attached to my beater, and would like to see what's possible for such a vehicle. if your comment has to do with buying a different starter vehicle, or anything of that sort, don't waste your time. just hit the "back" button on your browser and continue on your web bullying way.

i also know such a project will take time and money. both of which i have a bit of, and am willing to expend. basically, i have some space, some tools, some help, and want to make my ****box a force to be reconned with.

i have done some research and found some 4dr geo tracker/suzuki sidekick has the same wheelbase, all wheel disc brakes, and 4wd. my goal is to swap the aforementioned goodies into said prism. there is quite an aftermarket following of sidekick/trackers in the offroad scene, parts to support higher torque in the drivetrain are available. i've found they (the tracker/sidekick) use the "s" series engine, requiring a 5sfe or 3sgte to be able to bolt to the awd trans. i know i will need a bit more hp to make the 4wd move as quick a fwd, so i believe the 3sgte would be my best bet. clearly, i will be upgrading the turbo- also requiring a build-up of internals. i have read 100's of build-ups of 3sgte so i have an idea abt what im getting into as far as engine misc.

the reason i have chosen the tracker/sidekick as a platform to base this off of is not only because of wheelbase, but cost of parts. i can find junked 4wd trackers/sidekicks for less than $1000.

my questions are as follows:

1. are there any fundamental flaws in my thought process for the build? are there any red flags going up in anyone's mind pertaining to why this project could not happen?

2. are there any suggestions as to alternate engine/trans combos i should be considering?

any constructive input is greatly appreciated-

thanks in advance.

[Muggs]

I always thought the trackers had their engines mounted 'north-south', which means you would probably have to cut a transmission tunnel, and you would have to fabricate new mounts.
Might I suggest using the drivetrain from a corolla all-trac instead? They are somewhat rare, but I think you would have fewer compatibility issues, also, I believe the AWD tranny will bolt up to the 4AGE engines, which have a lot of potential- 20 valve w/ open ITBs, 4AGZE, 4AGTE, etc. any one of those, coupled with AWD and a light weight car would be pretty fun in the end.

this should probably be in off-topic.

[95CelicaST]

I believe the AWD tranny will bolt up to the 4AGE engines, which have a lot of potential- 20 valve w/ open ITBs, 4AGZE, 4AGTE, etc. any one of those, coupled with AWD and a light weight car would be pretty fun in the end.

Nien. I don't believe any A-series engine ever came w/ AWD - at least here in the states, so unless you can work magic and somehow mate the 4AGE to an S-series AWD transmission then this will never happen.

Other than that, yes. The AE101 4A-GE 20V is a great motor. If you want to run open ITB's you'd need a lot of the AE111 parts, or just drop in an AE111 20V. Less torque, a few more HP, but supports open ITB's out of the box.

Prisms come with an A-series engine, which makes putting another A-series engine in much easier than an entire S-series AWD drivetrain swap, but I guess if you're looking for a one-of-a-kind type of car....

[Muggs]

I could be wrong, but I thought the corolla all-trac came with a 4afe - can anyone confirm if they share the same tranny bolt pattern as the 4age? I always thought they did, anyway.

[devilsden97]

this is an off topic discussion.

i see the relivence to celicas.. but were talking a prism...not a celica

[Bitter]

suzuki parts wont just drop into a toyota.

[Dr_Tweak]

before i even start this- i know there's a lot of cars that are faster and a lot cooler than the prism. i've grown rather attached to my beater, and would like to see what's possible for such a vehicle. if your comment has to do with buying a different starter vehicle, or anything of that sort, don't waste your time. just hit the "back" button on your browser and continue on your web bullying way.

i also know such a project will take time and money. both of which i have a bit of, and am willing to expend. basically, i have some space, some tools, some help, and want to make my ****box a force to be reconned with.

i have done some research and found some 4dr geo tracker/suzuki sidekick has the same wheelbase, all wheel disc brakes, and 4wd. my goal is to swap the aforementioned goodies into said prism. there is quite an aftermarket following of sidekick/trackers in the offroad scene, parts to support higher torque in the drivetrain are available. i've found they (the tracker/sidekick) use the "s" series engine, requiring a 5sfe or 3sgte to be able to bolt to the awd trans. i know i will need a bit more hp to make the 4wd move as quick a fwd, so i believe the 3sgte would be my best bet. clearly, i will be upgrading the turbo- also requiring a build-up of internals. i have read 100's of build-ups of 3sgte so i have an idea abt what im getting into as far as engine misc.

the reason i have chosen the tracker/sidekick as a platform to base this off of is not only because of wheelbase, but cost of parts. i can find junked 4wd trackers/sidekicks for less than $1000.

my questions are as follows:

1. are there any fundamental flaws in my thought process for the build? are there any red flags going up in anyone's mind pertaining to why this project could not happen?

2. are there any suggestions as to alternate engine/trans combos i should be considering?

any constructive input is greatly appreciated-

thanks in advance.

Welcome to the forum.

Unfortunately, you are quite mistaken. The Geo Prizm shares absolutely nothing at all with the Geo Tracker/Suzuki Sidekick. The Prizm is, in all respects except for the a/c system and the exterior panels, identical to a Toyota Corolla. Therefore, an obvious swap choice would be a 4AGE 20v silvertop or blacktop or 4AGZE. If you want more serious power, then a 3SGTE swap would be in order, which will require custom axles, mounts, and so on. If you want to make the Prizm AWD, then the transmission/engine of choice would be the 3SGTE with a GT-4 AWD tranny. This will require extensive reworking of the chassis to build a tunnel, change the rear suspension and install a rear axle, and so on. It's quite possible if you are an expert fabricator and have a lot of time and money on your hands, or you simply have a lot of money on your hands and know someone who will do a custom swap such as this.

Hope that helps! For more info on the Corolla/Prizm chassis, check out trdforums.com, corolla-racing.com, and corollacarclub.com, along with club4ag.com.

About where this thread is, considering that the Prizm has an A-series engine just like the Celica ST, and we surely want to know all we can about these engines and different swap ideas, it most certainly would be "on-topic" for it to be in the engine discussion forum. Just my .03, adjusted for inflation.

-Doc

This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 2, 2008 - 3:09 PM

[do7d]

i thank everyone for input-

dr tweak: the tracker engine is an s-series, 5sfe and 3sgte should "bolt on". i also enjoyed your $.03 comment. well done

i have custom aluminum fabrication for cost of materials, and some of my time on CAD.

i have never even heard of someone SEEING a corolla all-trac here in the states. between that and most celica all-tracs already being pulled from yards for rebuilds, etc. at least anything within 150mi of where i live. (central pennsylvania) this was the main reason for the tracker part-out. if anyone has a lead on a corolla all-trac (or just the drivetrain) i would be most interested. i will gladly drive just abt anywhere i can get not requiring a passport

btw i am looking for more of a rally/autocross type setup. i commute a fair amount on back roads, full of hills and turns. no off-road, but i'd like to have better traction in snow and wet weather. i have read in some threads abt using celica suspension parts for best handling performance, however i have not gone into as great depths with that as i have with engine/trans setups

please continue with ideas/input! this is exactly what i needed.

thanks!

This post has been edited by do7d: Jan 2, 2008 - 8:32 PM

[Bitter]

its not a toyota engine at all, trust me on this. the trackers came with a 1.3, 1.6 or 1.8, no toyota S series engine came in that size.

they used the Suzuki G engines, no toyota parts were on the tracker. get this out of your head. the tracker is a suzuki sidekick, the prizm is a toyota corolla, the metro was a suzuki swift, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_%28automobile%29

[jdg371]

For one of your question. AllTrac Corollas were only available in Wagon with a 4AFE.

I have the same fantasy of building a PRISM as a sleeper car, my Prism of choice would be a GSi. AE92 Sedan bodystyle with a FACTORY 4AGE.



This post has been edited by jdg371: Jan 2, 2008 - 10:23 PM

[Dr_Tweak]

i thank everyone for input-

dr tweak: the tracker engine is an s-series, 5sfe and 3sgte should "bolt on". i also enjoyed your $.03 comment. well done

I'm afraid you are incorrect. As already pointed out, the Suzuki does not use a Toyota engine at all. Just because the letter "S" might appear somewhere on the engine doesn't mean it is remotely close to any Toyota S-series engine.

This is a Suzuki Sidekick engine:

http://images.4wdandsportutility.com/featu...Engine_View.jpg

This is a Toyota 7AFE (1.6)



This is a Toyota 5SFE:



This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Jan 3, 2008 - 10:06 AM

[DEATH]

That's no 5S-FE doc but I think he can get the point.

BTW - The Prism GSI may have a factory 4A-GE [I know I used to own one for a DD] but the AE92 is slow and not a very good platform for sleeperness. Alot of tuners aren't fooled by the Geo badges anyway.

[jdg371]

That's no 5S-FE doc but I think he can get the point.

BTW - The Prism GSI may have a factory 4A-GE [I know I used to own one for a DD] but the AE92 is slow and not a very good platform for sleeperness. Alot of tuners aren't fooled by the Geo badges anyway.

Boost is the only way to go to be fast in that car, I was thinking of swapping the whole suspension with aftermarket and GTS parts which are interchangeable. Also most tuners look down at the Geo, primarily most don't even know its a Toyota Corolla with an American badge.

The car that led me to thinking about a AE92 Sedan sleeper.


170whp 155ft/lb tq 4AGZE





This post has been edited by jdg371: Jan 3, 2008 - 9:34 AM

[DEATH]

That's funny. Here I didn't get away with that at all. I used to get "Nice Prism, does it have the 4A?"

[Dr_Tweak]

That's no 5S-FE doc but I think he can get the point.

BTW - The Prism GSI may have a factory 4A-GE [I know I used to own one for a DD] but the AE92 is slow and not a very good platform for sleeperness. Alot of tuners aren't fooled by the Geo badges anyway.

DOH! That's funny, I just ran a google image search for "5SFE" and came up with that, hit copy and paste, and never actually looked at the engine at all!

Fixed!

[FortuneCookie]

Don't debate the Tweak! BTW, didn't Toyota make an AWD version of the AE101s? Not sure what motor they ran though. I looked it up on wikipedia.org but I highly doubt you'll ever get your hands on one since they are only in Japan and most are probably scrapped by now.

This post has been edited by FortuneCookie: Jan 3, 2008 - 10:51 AM

[jdg371]

AWD AE101 had the 4AFE If I remember correctly.

[do7d]

i have the 4afe currently- there's a bit of tapping going on in the higher rpm (and it's not oil level) which sorta prompted the whole project idea. i was really hoping for awd and a motor swap, but it's next to impossible to find the all-trac in any of it's forms. i wanted a new engine altogether because i'd like to see more than 170 horses (or so) for the amount of work i'd be signing up for. to go along with that, i would have to spend a significant amt of money as well for engine internals.

as i said in the first post, i do have a bit of money to spend on the project, but to use it to get to only 170ish horses is kinda foolish. i could use it to get an entirely new car altogether that'd produce significantly better hp/weight ratio and handling.

i need to look into how a 4afe can produce enough ft/lb to make awd zippy, let alone fun. then i'll try even harder to an all-trac part-out.

please keep it coming everyone.. this is really great. most of the other forums im postin on aren't as insightful with their info.. thanks again to all.

[jdg371]

4AGZE engine and replace the supercharger with a turbo and tune it correctly, they are good for 200-250 without internals.

[dabazied]

If you find that you don't like your choices, you can always buy a swapped 6gc or depending on how much you have, a GT4

[jdg371]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKE3id5PmmY


11.4 AE92 Corolla... 7AFE + Blacktop 20V + Turbo = Balls Fast GTZ

[do7d]

i found an entire silvertop (20v) swap- just dynoed @ 160hp, about everything needed for the swap:

full silvertop harness.minus fuse box.
redirected forward facing intake.stock
maf,ecu,igniter,coil.etc
2 sohc trannys
flyweel,trd clutch and pressure plate.
2 walbro inline 190lph fuel pumps

altogether delivered for ~$1000. this is really tempting, but i'd *really* like to find the 4AGZE setup. i don't know.. would i still be able to use *most* of these upgrades if down the road i DO find the agze? if so then i could at least use the practice of taking that engine bay apart. do we think it's worth it for 55 hp- possibly more properly tuned maybe 75 total.. advance timing, 92 octane, etc.. ?

This post has been edited by do7d: Jan 4, 2008 - 1:57 AM

[do7d]

update:

within the next few days i should be acquiring a 4agze swap (from a late model jdm map setup corolla). included with the engine is ecu/harness/440 injectors/arp head studs.

is there anything anybody can recommend that i should get before i start with this? i will be taking out the sc and installing a turbo. but i don't think immediately, unless someone can guide me otherwise.

so much for awd i guess..

[Muggs]

You could also twin-charge the gze (turbo AND sc) for big power gains...

Even if you swap a 4age in now, you can drive it as is until you locate AWD parts from a corolla alltrac, which should still bolt up to that motor.

[95CelicaST]

i found an entire silvertop (20v) swap- just dynoed @ 160hp, about everything needed for the swap:

full silvertop harness.minus fuse box.
redirected forward facing intake.stock
maf,ecu,igniter,coil.etc
2 sohc trannys
flyweel,trd clutch and pressure plate.
2 walbro inline 190lph fuel pumps

Silvertop 20V will only make ~115-120WHP. And I don't know why it says SOHC transmissions, as 1) it doesn't matter. and 2) 20V is clearly DOHC.

As for the GZE... After speaking to a local 4AG speed shop they told me ditch the S/C as fast as you can... apparently it is the biggest PITA to wire and work properly.

This post has been edited by 95CelicaST: Jan 4, 2008 - 12:19 PM

[do7d]

very true.. it's not as if i'd pass one up just bc my engine was already swapped. it's just make things a bit easier with the motor already out, and a little more elbow room to work with. yah well. i can't believe i found a swap so quickly. i just need to wait 2-3wks for the garage space, then i'll have a sc prism. word i have not researched a proper turbo to mate with this setup yet. does anyone know right off hand? i would be happy topping 225-250hp for the time being.

and, btw i have already thought abt needing suspension/stopping power upgrades. searching for suspension tonight when i get home from work. i will definitely be checking out the classifieds here & mr2oc, toyotanation, club4ag, ectoyotas.com. i know i need to find a junked LSi to get all-wheel disc brakes, master cyl, lines.. then upgrade to bigger brakes.

This post has been edited by do7d: Jan 4, 2008 - 12:31 PM

[devilsden97]

You could also twin-charge the gze (turbo AND sc) for big power gains...

Even if you swap a 4age in now, you can drive it as is until you locate AWD parts from a corolla alltrac, which should still bolt up to that motor.

Why not just suggets buying a gun, and shooting himself in the face? Cuz from what I just read, u suggested a Twincharged AWD 4A vehicle. No one has substantial info on building an AWD platform on this site (or many others for that mater) and twincharging has been done two times (ive seen it 2x) and it was done by 2 very well know and very deep pocketed shops.

[95CelicaST]

Check www.club4AG.com

[do7d]

i forgot to ask- with this engine already having head off, i was thinking a good cleaning is in order. anyone in the philadelphia area know of a solid shop to do the work? maybe tweak it a bit..

[jdg371]

ARP stud everything, get the blocked, pistons, and other cleaned, balance the crank if you have money. I fresh looking motor is always better than having all the dirt collected with the miles.

As for twincharging, I ask why? Sure it "cool" but Turbos are soo efficient now that there are ball bearing turbos that have close to NO lag.

[do7d]

i was not looking to twincharge. i was looking to take out the s/c and use the turbo in it's place. im definitely getting everything refinished.

[do7d]

when i do the swap i will absolutely be getting a new timing belt- i found one from HKS that goes along with the adj cam gears i was looking to get. my question is this: at the $153 (retail for belt) and $185 (retail for gears) would they be the best quality? are there others equal or better for less $$$?

cam gears 22004-AT001 TOYOTA Corolla GTS 1985-1991 http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=629
timing belt 24999-AT009 TOYOTA Corolla GTS 1985-1991 ; 113R http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=2937

and yah, they're both purple. my girlfriend thinks it's cute. it's one less thing she'll bitch abt

This post has been edited by do7d: Jan 6, 2008 - 12:21 PM

[jdg371]

No expirience with either of them, but you can't really go wrong with a named brand. Especially HKS.