5SFTE larger turbo disscussion, lets talk turbos other than the ct-26 on the 5sfe Options

[presure2]

ok guys. we all know what the 5sfte can do, equipped with a ct-based turbo, and moderate (10-~15psi) boost (180-~235whp)(i call it moderate boost, its all a "relitive" term..lol)
we know what shannons car made, @ ~11psi (~240whp) with the "ebay special" mismatched 50 trim T3/4
but, im interested in your thoughts on somthing a bit more reliable..lol
so lets start with a few turbos that we can easily adapt to our cars. (using the generic ebay adapter, or the ATS, or whatever adapter you can get your hands on..lol)
ok so, most of the adapters out there are T3 footprint, and by looking at what the mr2 guys are doing, anything sub 300whp is pretty much owned by the GT28rs aka the disco potato.
jgreening on this forum had the very first Speedsource 'rs kit, and made great power with it, along with super fast spool and response.
just going by that, it would seem like that it would be just as good a performer on the 5s, but, i have read curcumstances of 3rd gen guys having boost creep problems with it, which for us, would be death.
its an expensive turbo, @ ~1100, but it is true ball bearing, available in both a t25 and a t3 footprint, with other housing options as well.
for 270whp and above, we can start looking, again going by what the 3s guys use, (i mean hey, why not keep it simple, and go with things that are proven to start with...lol) we could go with somthing like what the ko racing "streetbrawler" kit uses, the T3/4 46 trim, with the .63 a/r turbine.
IMO i think we could spool this turbo by ~35-3800rpm, and even at low (8-10psi) boost, still make great power, and be 300whp+ capable with proper engine management, fuel ect.
i know alot of you guys would never think of droping 2k on half a turbo kit, but, in reality, for instance, somthing like the speedsource gt-28rs kit, which NONE of us could fabricate in our home garage,(carl does AMAZING work) that would "in theory" bolt on (other than all the other turbo stuff you would normally need), kinda makes me think otherwise about it.
i mean hell, even fabricating one up, out of one of those crappy ebay adapters could be made to work, just a matter of buying the proper parts, and welding up the DP ect.
what are your guys thoughts on this stuff???

[supershannon77]

is someone getting a new turbo?

[lagos]

It depends on what you want out of the car. Quick spool, or peak power.

I really like the GT28rs and even the GT2871. The 2871 especially has a lot of potential for both impressive peak and quick spool, but I think those are better suited for a 3sgte then a 5sfTe.

The stock 5sfe ecu seems to run a lot of timing advance in the 4k rpm range. At that point the 28rs would be making full boost ontop of advanced timing, while the 46 trim t3/t4 would be just starting to spool. By going with the t3/t4 you would get quicker spool up then you would with a 3s, and most of your power would be made up top where there is less timing and less chance for detonation. This would make for a safer setup, better traction and better 1/4 mile times.

[presure2]

is someone getting a new turbo?

haha, not anytime in the near future.

It depends on what you want out of the car. Quick spool, or peak power.

I really like the GT28rs and even the GT2871. The 2871 especially has a lot of potential for both impressive peak and quick spool, but I think those are better suited for a 3sgte then a 5sfTe.

The stock 5sfe ecu seems to run a lot of timing advance in the 4k rpm range. At that point the 28rs would be making full boost ontop of advanced timing, while the 46 trim t3/t4 would be just starting to spool. By going with the t3/t4 you would get quicker spool up then you would with a 3s, and most of your power would be made up top where there is less timing and less chance for detonation. This would make for a safer setup, better traction and better 1/4 mile times.

thanks art, but to be honest, i was looking more for some of the other guys to chime in, you and i have beat this horse to death quite a few times over AIM..lol

[x_itchy_b_x]

all i have to say is YES.

Larger turbo will be more efficient.
lower intake temps.
make more hp at a lower boost.
reduce wheel spill in the lower gears from being able to spool a turbo to fast.

i have nothing but love for the hx35 esp after last nights dyno session
that might be to big for what you want here, esp on a 5s because of the lack of revs. but I'm just saying, yes a larger turbo would be so much more beneficial.

[jcaron9gt4]

i think all of us 5sfte guys would Love to put bigger turbo's on our cars, just a lack of knowledge is stopping us. Has anyone successfully put a larger turbo on their 5's, and had it run without problems? I know some of us just don't know how much the 5's can handle.

[6strngs]

well, my ct-26 just blew the other day. kinda funny, it happened on the first run I did after installing an oil restrictor. I don't know if that's what caused it. my auto teacher at school seems to think that the turbo was on it's way out, and installing the restrictor just sped-up the process.

so, basically I'm in the market for a new turbo. I don't want another used one. I want a new or rebuilt one. and the cost for a new or rebuilt CT26 is only slightly less than the cost for an entire T3/T4 kit. so, I'm actually considering putting one on in the next few weeks. hopefully sooner than later as I don't feel good driving around with a blown turbo that's putting a lot of oil into my intercooler piping. I might have to use up the money I had saved up for wheels, but that all depends on how big of a tax return I'm gonna get. lol. anyway, I agree that a bigger turbo would be more beneficial thanks to the lag helping to give better traction. I might be able to save some money on tires now cause I'd could get away with some 225/45/17 instead of trying to fit a 245/40/17 or 235/40/17, which are both more expensive. anyway, for my budget, and power goals, I think t3/t4 is my best bet. I like the GT28rs, but it costs almost double what a t3/t4 does.

anyway, I was wondering what the general consensus was on ebay wastegates. at least temporarily as I wasn't expecting to have to drop $700-900 into my car.

[lagos]

I don't know if that's what caused it. my auto teacher at school seems to think that the turbo was on it's way out, and installing the restrictor just sped-up the process.

Over feeding the turbo by running it without a restrictor is what caused it.

[RichieRichJP]

I'm in the process of turboing my 5sfe Camry with a GT35R. From what I've heard, this turbo usually spools at about 4,500 rpms, which seems normal but the problem is maxing out that turbo "efficiently." I've been talking to my parts person for sometime now on getting some work done to the head and the stock cylinder head bench flow indicates that there is a big restriction on the motor coming from the exhaust side. From there results, it appeared that approximately 80% of the exhaust side was flowing as to what the intake was flowing. At that, this would mean an upgrade to Ferrea Valve stems, and definitely new cams, which Crower provides for our engines. Those seem to be the biggest factors on getting the power out of our motors. I plan on getting the AEM EMS this month along with a custom harness, but I have no clue as to the best way to run this with a btm. There's still a lot of things I need to look into to work out on my setup

This post has been edited by RichieRichJP: Feb 8, 2008 - 4:13 PM

[x_itchy_b_x]

^ at that point I don't get the point of keeping an economy head. Toyota already built it. GTE

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Manny, I personally would love to see a GT2871R enlisted for service on your 5SFTE setup. Its an awesome turbo.


Heres my reasoning. With the added displacement and C/R you have over a 3SGTE with the 5S, your engine is going to tend to spool the turbo a but lower in the RPM band than it would on the 3SGTE....The A/R of that turbo will still net you good low end spool from the motor, but will really make the midrange and high end power delivery shine.

Thats probably the biggest improvement you could make on a torquey motor like the 5SFE, to utilize the low-end exhaust flow to spool up a nice chunky turbo to make the rest of the powerband much more lively.


If I ever upgrade from the CT20B, It'll be tossed in favor of a GT2871R. It pulls really hard in the mid/high RPMs, lightyears beyond what the CT turbos could ever do.....I think KO Racing makes a kit with the GT2871R as an option, with a lower or higer trim available to suit your needs.


EDIT- I forgot to add also....my theory for using that turbo is also largely based on the ability to use a quality aftermarket wastegate instead of an internally gated unit. Using a Tial/Turbonetics/Turbosmart wastegate along with the GT2871R would keep the boost right where you wanted it and it wouldn't move unless told.

This post has been edited by Silver94CelicaOwner: Feb 8, 2008 - 5:13 PM

[6strngs]

I've got a few questions

1: will water cooling be necessary for a turbo other than CT26 as long as a turbo timer is used? I know it would be better, but I don't really understand how you get coolant to this turbo, you have to use some kind of banjo bolt kit?

2: wastegates, if I cheap out and get an ebay one with an 8 PSI spring, even though I really want to run 10-11 PSI, will it be ok? I choose the lower spring to give some head room in case it creeps, and I know it will. would replacing the spring in a cheap wastegate with a geniune Tial spring make it better?

3: is a 46 trim t3/t4 with the 0.63 A/R turbine gonna be the best size for the 5sfte? I want something that will support 300 WHP, but not much more because I don't want TOO much lag. if the turbo doesn't make full boost until 4K, then you've only got about 1K rpm of actual power before it starts pinging and becomes super slow and is bad for the engine. I plan to get water methanol injection, and then down the road an emanage ultimate. But, even with the CT26 I have on now, I was planning not to take it past 5200 RPM until I got water/methanol, since it had no power that high anyway I didn't see the need to go higher than that. plus I REALLY don't want to blow the engine.

4: should a restrictor still be run with this turbo?

I'll probably start ordering parts once these questions are answered. I've decided that my wheels aren't coming for another few weeks, and I don't need to get them immidiately after they come in, so turbo goes in now, wheels come later.

[808celica]

lolz come 'on old people keep sharing the info i can get smarter about boosting my 5s..........

[presure2]

I've got a few questions

1: will water cooling be necessary for a turbo other than CT26 as long as a turbo timer is used? I know it would be better, but I don't really understand how you get coolant to this turbo, you have to use some kind of banjo bolt kit?

2: wastegates, if I cheap out and get an ebay one with an 8 PSI spring, even though I really want to run 10-11 PSI, will it be ok? I choose the lower spring to give some head room in case it creeps, and I know it will. would replacing the spring in a cheap wastegate with a geniune Tial spring make it better?

3: is a 46 trim t3/t4 with the 0.63 A/R turbine gonna be the best size for the 5sfte? I want something that will support 300 WHP, but not much more because I don't want TOO much lag. if the turbo doesn't make full boost until 4K, then you've only got about 1K rpm of actual power before it starts pinging and becomes super slow and is bad for the engine. I plan to get water methanol injection, and then down the road an emanage ultimate. But, even with the CT26 I have on now, I was planning not to take it past 5200 RPM until I got water/methanol, since it had no power that high anyway I didn't see the need to go higher than that. plus I REALLY don't want to blow the engine.

4: should a restrictor still be run with this turbo?

I'll probably start ordering parts once these questions are answered. I've decided that my wheels aren't coming for another few weeks, and I don't need to get them immidiately after they come in, so turbo goes in now, wheels come later.

#1 yes, if it is watercooled. on most of them you choose either a oil cooled, or water and oil.
#2 DO NOT cheap out on a wastegate.
think about it, if that decides to take a crap on you, what happens when you step on the pedal? unlimited boost. that would bad. or, it could just start leaking, not opening correctly ect..all still bad IMO.
buy a REAL WG.
#3 do your homework, and figure it out.
there are figures in the sticky that allow you to plot your airflow need accross a compressor map, use it.
#4 yes. the T series restrictor you should be using with your ct-26 is made for "T" series turbos.

[6strngs]

thanks for the help.

using the stickies, I've calculated my CFM, but I'm having a hard time finding compressor maps for this turbo and others to compare to. also I'm guessing that to find what RPM you would spool the turbo fully, you would look at the CFM for your max boost at the RPM you want it at, go to the chart, and line it up with where the center "island" begins?

[presure2]

thanks for the help.

using the stickies, I've calculated my CFM, but I'm having a hard time finding compressor maps for this turbo and others to compare to. also I'm guessing that to find what RPM you would spool the turbo fully, you would look at the CFM for your max boost at the RPM you want it at, go to the chart, and line it up with where the center "island" begins?

http://www.turbocharged.com/catalog/compmaps/fig12.html
theres a bunch.

you can go right to garrett for all the GT series.

the streetbrawler turbo is basicly a t3/4 hybrid, with a to4E 46 trim compressor side, and a t3 stage III turbine side, with your choice of A/R to suit your power goals. (most 3s guys go with the .63 for best spool.) you can look on the mr2oc dyno records for spool RPM ideas, just remember it will spool a few hundred RPM sooner on the 5s.
i had made a couple charts back in the day on the old 'puter, ill have to see if i can dig em up.
ahh yea..here ya go.
this is 7 and 10psi


@ low boost, you'd be just getting into the better efficency islands as you hit peak tq, but you'd still see boost ~3500 or so (based on 3s guys, and a .63 turbine), and would pull very well ~TQ peak, and after.
as you turn up the boost, you just bring things into even more efficent parts of the map.
i for one am really of the thinking the ct-26 is too small for all but the low boost setups on the 5s.
once your turning it up past 9 or 10 psi, your really out of the efficency island so to speak, and the exhaust housing is a really big restriction. (as shown by the 3s guys, who show that @ 15psi, exhaust manifold pressure is DOUBLE that of intake manifold pressure, which is one of the original reasons for me going with the ct-27, BTW.. )
with a better matched exhaust side, i really think that it would help efficency of the 5sfte. hence the larger turbo disscussion.

[6strngs]

how would the same turbo but with the .48 A/R instead of the .63 A/R affect spool? From what I understand, the smaller A/R is better spool but less top end. I'm just thinking that while the 46 trim t3/t4 will work, it might be a little too big. however, if it'll reach full boost around 3500, I'm fine with that. I just don't want one that reaches full boost by like 4K+. the ct-26 hit full boost by like, what, 2800? I never really was able to tell cause it just spooled too fast. lol

[presure2]

how would the same turbo but with the .48 A/R instead of the .63 A/R affect spool? From what I understand, the smaller A/R is better spool but less top end. I'm just thinking that while the 46 trim t3/t4 will work, it might be a little too big. however, if it'll reach full boost around 3500, I'm fine with that. I just don't want one that reaches full boost by like 4K+. the ct-26 hit full boost by like, what, 2800? I never really was able to tell cause it just spooled too fast. lol

a .48 a/r will be too small.
that would be better suited to like a 1.8 or somthing, goals ~ 200whp or so.
a ct-26 based 5sfte should see full boost by ~ 26-700rpm. i see full boost by 2800 or so with the '27.

[6strngs]

sounds good. I'm gonna order the 46 trim .63 A/R in the morning now I gotta shop for some other parts.

[RichieRichJP]

^ at that point I don't get the point of keeping an economy head. Toyota already built it. GTE

As per dollars spent to amount of HP you get, personally, I think swapping 3SGTE parts is more money. I've done the math and they actually come pretty close. My setup vs a 3sgte would make mine at least a couple grand more expensive with a couple hundred HP over the 3sgte (assuming I do max out the turbo). Plus I want to turbo a Camry motor, not a MR2 motor

This post has been edited by RichieRichJP: Feb 10, 2008 - 9:49 AM

[6strngs]

turbo ordered! only a matter of weeks before this puppy goes in.

presure2 or anybody thay had a hand in supershannon's set-up. do you think there was room for the internal wastegate? it's cheaper than a tial wastegate, then the flange for the extrnal can be blocked off (saw a block-off plate on atpturbo.com for $10) and then I don't think the oil filter and oil cooler would need to be relocated. thus saving even more cost. just a thought. or perhaps having an external wastegate flange welded onto the manifold to put it in a different place? there's a manifold from 935 motorsports that looks like a stock manifold, but is t3 flanged and has a wastegate port out of the top of the manifold. it says that a 90 degree adaptor is needed for the wastegate to get the hood to close, but I think it just might be able to fit on out cars without an adaptor. here's a linky: https://935motorsports.com/catalog/product_...roducts_id=1478

This post has been edited by 6strngs: Feb 10, 2008 - 11:42 AM

[presure2]

i wouldnt trust a turbo that big NOT to creep with an internal gate.
creep is something we CANNOT have with larger turbos, creep = death to the 5s.
the manifold you posted would work, i dont know about closing the hood, without an adapter.
again tho, with how the WG would be positioned on that manifold, i would be concerned about creep.
im tellin ya man, dont try to cheap out here, i know you dont have a lot of money to spend, but this is one of those critical things, that really gets important the larger the turbo is.
boost control is going to be crucial to your setup, i wanna see this beast make great power AND last more than a week or 2.
dont you already have the relocation parts from your 5sfte?
i would keep my eyes PEELED on mr2oc and alltrac.net, and the supraforums for a used gate, if money is that tight.

[6strngs]

so, turbo was shipped today, but it's gotta come a long way before it gets here so it might take a while. also ordered a CT-26 to T3 adaptor off ebay. I think I'm gonna wait for those two to come in, and then I'm gonna head over to ATP turbo, which is about 45 minutes from my house, to pick up all the remaining flanges, gaskets, oil lines, and a tial wastegate. I might be able to use my current feed and drain line, but they might be too long. I'll have to wait until the adapter and turbo get here.

also, I do already have the oil filter relocation equipment, but I'm thinking the lines will be way too long now. I think my hose ends are re-usable though, so maybe I can just cut the lines and re-use the hose ends.

[6strngs]

still waiting on parts. anyway, anyone have any guesstimates on the amount of horsepower I'll be making with this turbo? I ordered a TiAl 38mm wastegate with a .7 BAR spring, which is 10.15 PSI, and I won't be taking it any higher than that anytime soon.

also, the highest horsepower 5sfte I've heard of is Shannon's at 240 WHP. but I don't know if people have made more than that with mr2's or camry's or whatnot. anybody heard of anything higher?

[presure2]

still waiting on parts. anyway, anyone have any guesstimates on the amount of horsepower I'll be making with this turbo? I ordered a TiAl 38mm wastegate with a .7 BAR spring, which is 10.15 PSI, and I won't be taking it any higher than that anytime soon.

also, the highest horsepower 5sfte I've heard of is Shannon's at 240 WHP. but I don't know if people have made more than that with mr2's or camry's or whatnot. anybody heard of anything higher?

10 psi is alot to start with on that turbo.
mike colon made 515whp...

[6strngs]

still waiting on parts. anyway, anyone have any guesstimates on the amount of horsepower I'll be making with this turbo? I ordered a TiAl 38mm wastegate with a .7 BAR spring, which is 10.15 PSI, and I won't be taking it any higher than that anytime soon.

also, the highest horsepower 5sfte I've heard of is Shannon's at 240 WHP. but I don't know if people have made more than that with mr2's or camry's or whatnot. anybody heard of anything higher?

10 psi is alot to start with on that turbo.
mike colon made 515whp...

515 WHP? on a 5sfte? 5sgtes don't count. I'd like to see a mod list on his car.

[99GT]

His fully built.

[RichieRichJP]

I heard of someones being 750whp a couple years back... don't know who's but I think it was an mr2

[presure2]

still waiting on parts. anyway, anyone have any guesstimates on the amount of horsepower I'll be making with this turbo? I ordered a TiAl 38mm wastegate with a .7 BAR spring, which is 10.15 PSI, and I won't be taking it any higher than that anytime soon.

also, the highest horsepower 5sfte I've heard of is Shannon's at 240 WHP. but I don't know if people have made more than that with mr2's or camry's or whatnot. anybody heard of anything higher?

10 psi is alot to start with on that turbo.
mike colon made 515whp...

515 WHP? on a 5sfte? 5sgtes don't count. I'd like to see a mod list on his car.

it was a 5sfte not GE.
it was FULLY built, with acell EMS IIRC.
thats gonna be what stops you more than anything. tuning.
again, i would DEFINETLY get a 5psi spring, and the 10psi spring.
with the 5psi spring, your max boost will be ~11psi .
ive seen 3s dynos of ~270whp @ ~15psi or less. so your gonna have to be carefull of how much boost you run initially.
and PLEASE tell me you have a wideband, and are planning to hit the dyno as SOON AS ITS INSTALLED?!?

[6strngs]

I've got an AEM UEGO wideband. but I was planning on tuning it myself with that for the time being. I got my ct26 tuned pretty good by myself. it stayed between 11.2 and 11.6 through-out the RPM range at WOT up until about 4500 RPMs, it dropped to about 10.7 or so.

anyway, I want to tune it myself for now and then perhaps have it tuned professionally after I get the water-methanol injection. tuning is $150 an hour here.

[presure2]

I've got an AEM UEGO wideband. but I was planning on tuning it myself with that for the time being. I got my ct26 tuned pretty good by myself. it stayed between 11.2 and 11.6 through-out the RPM range at WOT up until about 4500 RPMs, it dropped to about 10.7 or so.

anyway, I want to tune it myself for now and then perhaps have it tuned professionally after I get the water-methanol injection. tuning is $150 an hour here.

im not saying to pay for tuning, im saying tune on a dyno.
where you can get easily repeatable results over and over, without endangering yourself, or others in the process.

[6strngs]

dunno if they'll let me tune it myself on their dyno. I wish we had a load bearing dyno at school. all we have is the one for smog tests... apparently they do have one, but when they were expanding the auto lab and decided to put an actual class room in, they didn't have anywhere to put it except over top of the dyno... so apparently there is a perfectly good load-bearing dyno underneath my feet everytime I go to class and it just kills me to think that it's being wasted. anyway, I should ask turbohoses how much it would be, but it would probably be more than modacar since they mostly do high end cars like ferarris, nobles, porsches, lotus, and lamborghinis... but I'll ask

[Defgeph]

I'd like to see the street brawler kit on a 5sfte. Ball bearing turbos are awesome, but think about the wheel spin from a insanely fast compressor spool. I have gone back and forth with the street brawler kit & GT3071R. It all comes down to acceleration characteristics. I think the street brawler 46 trim would be the way to go. Thats what I'd like to put in my car. You'll still have great spool time, make excellent power, and have the potential to make more power over the potato.

[MaX]

got a bit of a noob question here,

what is the trim on turbos?

cos i've found a few t3/t4's that im likin the look of, one says its .50 trim and the others .57. i'm after some good mid rpm range boost, not insane tyre frying kinda stuff.

whats considered too big for say around 10psi on a 5sfte?