3S-GTE Guys.......Oil Cooler users within please. Options

[Fastbird]

So after finally picking up an oil temp gauge, I'm noticing a pattern that I DON'T like. My oil temps are hovering around 220° during normal driving and for the short 7 mile blasts I go down the highway, they climb into the 230°-240° range. This is being light on the car.

I have a feeling that it would DEFINITELY benefit from an oil cooler. So my question for you guys is how are you plumbing the cooler into the system, and what kind of cooler are you using.

I'm looking at two different styles of transmission coolers available at my Auto Zone that I work part time at. One is a simple tube running through fins, like the cheap ones you see. The other is like a minature radiator, bar and plate style.

My thoughts on where to plumb them in are initally to come in on the drain side of the turbo and use a scavenging pump to move it through the cooler back into the pan. I think this would provide the greatest amount of efficiency but definitely NOT the best cost margin. Other than this, I can't think of where to plumb it in.

And for those wondering, I have the temp sensor for the gauge mounted in the filter sandwich adapter with no problems noted.

Any pics, write-ups, or ideas on setups you guys might have?

[x_itchy_b_x]

this is what im using
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku

[Fastbird]

What I'm looking at is VERY similar in design to that except it's half the price and uses clamp fittings instead of AN fittings.

How do you have it plumbed in though?

I'm really considering the scavenging pump route because the turbo obviously is going to have the largest affect on the oil temps, but I'm worried that I'll end up pulling oil through the turbo faster than the engine is pumping it and would end up wiping out the bearings.

[lagos]

My thoughts on where to plumb them in are initally to come in on the drain side of the turbo

I know you almost never listen to my advice (its all good ) but thats a bad idea.
If you want to install an oil cooler, you should go with one that attaches to the factory oil cooler.

Something like this would be the best way to go.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOTA-MR2-...sspagenameZWDVW


This post has been edited by lagos: Mar 8, 2008 - 1:11 AM

[Fastbird]

Wait.....there's a factory oil cooler? I sure as heck don't seem to have one on my car.

I've already got a oil filter sandwich adapter (there's one pictured in that ebay link) but the only 2 accessible ports are taken by the Oil Pressure and Temp Sensors.

Note* I seriously hope no one pays $280 for that ebay kit. That's a ripoff in a big way. A $40 sandwich adapter, a bar and plate cooler that's worth maybe $60 and some braided stainless line and a couple of fittings?? Not worth that price.

Now, I must ask. Why is using the drain side of the turbo to plumb in the cooler if using a scavenging pump a bad idea? Reason I ask is because it's a beautifully working system on my TT Corvette. I never see oil temps above 220 and that's AFTER railing on it for an hour. Normal driving I only see about 180-190 tops.

[lagos]

Wait.....there's a factory oil cooler? I sure as heck don't seem to have one on my car.

Yes you do. Its right under your oil filter. Its cooled by engine coolant.

Note* I seriously hope no one pays $280 for that ebay kit. That's a ripoff in a big way. A $40 sandwich adapter, a bar and plate cooler that's worth maybe $60 and some braided stainless line and a couple of fittings?? Not worth that price.

Yeah, its just meant to give you an idea of what kind of setup you should look into .

Now, I must ask. Why is using the drain side of the turbo to plumb in the cooler if using a scavenging pump a bad idea? Reason I ask is because it's a beautifully working system on my TT Corvette. I never see oil temps above 220 and that's AFTER railing on it for an hour. Normal driving I only see about 180-190 tops.

Because the oil return line from the turbo should be as free flowing as possible with no restriction and assisted by gravity. You run a risk of blowing your turbo if you install an oil cooler on there.

[Fastbird]

Hmmm.........I haven't seen any type of fitting under my oil filter. I have been in there more than a couple of times and don't remember seeing anything.

Gotcha on the ebay link.........

As for the plumbing of a cooler on the drain side of the turbo.........you might be getting ahead of me here. I have already put thought to the fact that it could cause a backup which I know is b-a-d. But.....my way around that would be to put the scavenging pump in BEFORE the cooler, so that the scavenging pump is pulling off of the turbo and pushing through the cooler. I think that would be no more restrictive than the stock drain line and would provide the best results of installing a cooler.

[lagos]

Hmmm.........I haven't seen any type of fitting under my oil filter. I have been in there more than a couple of times and don't remember seeing anything.

Its the actual aluminum assembly that you screw your oil filter onto is your oil cooler. If you look at it closely, you'll see coolant lines running to it.

As for the plumbing of a cooler on the drain side of the turbo.........you might be getting ahead of me here. I have already put thought to the fact that it could cause a backup which I know is b-a-d. But.....my way around that would be to put the scavenging pump in BEFORE the cooler, so that the scavenging pump is pulling off of the turbo and pushing through the cooler. I think that would be no more restrictive than the stock drain line and would provide the best results of installing a cooler.

The oil cooler, fittings, lines, etc... would be a restriction over at big free flowing factory return line... with or without a pump. The best way to do it is to add a sandwich adapter to your oil filter.

This post has been edited by lagos: Mar 8, 2008 - 1:50 AM

[phattyduck]

Similar to what the other guys have said, you need a sandwich adapter that has both oil cooler inlet and outlet ports and sensor ports (for your gauge). Ideally, you would also want a thermostat to avoid over-cooling your oil.

-Charlie

[Fastbird]

Here's my question then: Has anyone tried using a scavenging pump and plumbing the cooler on the drain side? From my perspective, that's the side that needs the cooler and that's where the greatest impact can be made. I know that a lot of the custom turbo guys I've worked with on the V8 stuff use the setup exactly like I'm describing. I guess I'm just not understanding why it wouldn't work the same way on the factory type stuff.

[pittfirefighter]

did anyone ever think that there is no oil cooler on his 3sgte? maybe it was replaced with the sandwich plate for gauges.... now this is a really bad idea as you can see with the oil temps... why don't you post a pic of your oil setup now fastbird.... and if you have no oil cooler... how did they seal the fitting on the bottom of the water pump? just curious...

[Fastbird]

Let's not jump to conclusions here. I will freely admit that though I've been in there a few times, I haven't payed attention to if the filter is sitting on a cooler or not.. The sandwich adapter I put on there to facilitate the gauge installation. I'm going to take a look in there tomorrow on my day off and see what's going on.

[alltracman78]

While it's very possible to pull the stock cooler and fab something up, it's not too likely unless you specifically requested it or did it.
The coolant lines are dependent on the oil cooler. You can't just pull the cooler, you'd have 2 open lines.

[pabel89]

what oil cooler would be good for the 7afte?

[phattyduck]

Here's my question then: Has anyone tried using a scavenging pump and plumbing the cooler on the drain side? From my perspective, that's the side that needs the cooler and that's where the greatest impact can be made. I know that a lot of the custom turbo guys I've worked with on the V8 stuff use the setup exactly like I'm describing. I guess I'm just not understanding why it wouldn't work the same way on the factory type stuff.

Unlike many of the other guys on this thread, I believe that a scavaging pump on the oil drain line would actually be better than the stock drain setup... That doesn't mean you should do it though. There are thousands of 3s-gte motors with perfectly working stock drain setups, and adding a pump that might fail seems like a bad idea to me.

You can get significanly more oil flow through a full-flow oil cooler without the expense and hassle of a pump if you use an oil cooler sandwich adapter or filter relocation adapter. You can even relocate the oil filter at the same time to get it out of the way of the manifold/turbo/downpipe to make oil changes easier.

-Charlie

[Fastbird]

PhattyDuck, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Everyone, I know it's going to be easiest to get a sandwich adapter to plumb an aftermarket oil cooler in. I completely realize this. But, I feel that it's defeating the purpose because that hot oil draining from the turbo is still going to head directly to the pan and heat everything up.

My point of wanting to plumb the cooler in between the turbo drain and pan is to cool the oil at the most immediate possible point. This way, it's cooler going into the pan, and less convective heating is seen.

[phattyduck]

PhattyDuck, thanks for the vote of confidence.

Everyone, I know it's going to be easiest to get a sandwich adapter to plumb an aftermarket oil cooler in. I completely realize this. But, I feel that it's defeating the purpose because that hot oil draining from the turbo is still going to head directly to the pan and heat everything up.

My point of wanting to plumb the cooler in between the turbo drain and pan is to cool the oil at the most immediate possible point. This way, it's cooler going into the pan, and less convective heating is seen.

Very little oil goes through the turbo compared to the rest of the bearings in the motor. I still think you can get much more cooling from a block adapter. Either way, I would be curious to see your oil temp results.

-Charlie

[Fastbird]

Well, problem is that I just can't go with another block adapter. I already have one on there, and am not interested in even trying to fit another one on top.

[lagos]

Buy a new one with a thermostat and enough ports to hook everything up.

[Harold_Fastwaker]

Buy a new one with a thermostat and enough ports to hook everything up.

I am looking at buying this one. (link is just reference) Mocal 180 degree built in t-stat to hook up oil coolers.


http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product...Sandwich_Plates


Instead of running a remote T-stat. Just means I wont be using an oil relocation unit. I dont want to even try running 4 hoses out of the oil filter location.

[scothaniel]

I'm using the Permacool cooler / filter relocation kit on my st185. After a year or so, I ended up replacing the hoses with some higher quality lines w/ pressed fittings, and ditching the whole barb ends / clamp connections. It may have been overkill, but I feel safer knowing my engine isn't going to seize due to a cheap clamp coming loose.

Anyways... According to the BGB, the path of oil in the 3SGTE starts at the pan and goes through the filter & cooler before hitting the main oil hole, so adding an additional (or alternate) cooler at the filter would offset the heat from the turbo:



A few cars had a secondary water cooler / pump setup just for turbos (Audi and Mercedes I believe). This could help in cooling the turbo, and thus cooling the oil inside the turbo? I'm guessing it wasn't a big drop, as I dont think either of those manufacture are still doing this.

This post has been edited by scothaniel: Mar 10, 2008 - 7:27 PM

[Fastbird]

I don't know about you guys, but with my DP.....there's only one way to fit anything in there on a sandwich adapter. There's simply not the room for me to add anything else to it.

Anyways... According to the BGB, the path of oil in the 3SGTE starts at the pan and goes through the filter & cooler before hitting the main oil hole, so adding an additional (or alternate) cooler at the filter would offset the heat from the turbo:

http://www.mr2-tech.com/bgb/mechanical/vol...l_0537_0001.jpg

I personally believe that the oil cooler would work better if the oil was cooled prior to getting back into the oil pan. That's my whole reasoning for all of this. I believe that it is more efficient to do it this way rather than cool it coming from immediately prior to the filter.

[scothaniel]

I don't know about you guys, but with my DP.....there's only one way to fit anything in there on a sandwich adapter. There's simply not the room for me to add anything else to it.

This is the reason I went with an oil filter relocation kit on my 2nd gen motor. My turbo kit w/ external wastegate made it impossible to get to the oil filter. Even getting to the oil dip stick is rough! Relocated the filter to the passenger side fender and now oil changes are quick and clean - no more oil drips down the front side of the block.

One of the best features of the 3rd gen motors - oil filter relocation to the bottom of the pan!

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

My 3rd gen sees oil temps of about 170-180 degrees fahrenheit under normal driving conditions, and no more than about 190-195 degrees during continuously very hard driving. The oil cooler on 3rd gen motors are pretty substantial though, so I think thats how they stay so low.


The best solution on the 2nd generation motors would probably be what Art mentioned with a thermostat-controlled oil cooler sandwich adaptor. Forget about tapping in for the sensors right at the filter sandwich too, if you use quality stainless braided hose and fittings you can use some really nice Earl's pressure gauge adaptors to feed your senders -

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.as...mp;autoview=sku


Seal it all up with PFTE on the threads and you'll be running much cooler and leak free.

[lagos]

Corey,fastbird... what oil brand/weight are you two using?

[Fastbird]

Corey,fastbird... what oil brand/weight are you two using?

Right now I've got Valvoline Max Life 10w30 in it, but once it warms up I'm going to switch to a 10w40.

[alltracman78]

I personally believe that the oil cooler would work better if the oil was cooled prior to getting back into the oil pan. That's my whole reasoning for all of this. I believe that it is more efficient to do it this way rather than cool it coming from immediately prior to the filter.

I don't have anything but the stock cooler, and I don't monitor my temps as of right now; but while the turbo is probably what heats the oil the most, the rest of the engine combined uses more oil than just the turbo does, and does a pretty good job heating it as well.
Using a cooler in the stock location will cool ALL of the oil as it feeds to the engine, so the complete engine will receive cool[er] oil, instead of just cooling what goes through the turbo, ignoring the rest, and cooling what is in the pan instead of what is headed to the engine [yes I understand the oil in the pan will end up in the engine, but cooling it that way only cools part, not all].
It's your car and your decision, but you're probably better off cooling the same way Toyota did, at the filter.

[lagos]

Corey,fastbird... what oil brand/weight are you two using?

Right now I've got Valvoline Max Life 10w30 in it, but once it warms up I'm going to switch to a 10w40.

Try a different weight or even synthetic. Id be curious what effect that has on your temps.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Art, I use 5w30 Castrol Syntec with OEM Toyota filters.

I chose the lighter weight oil for flowing characteristics, since theres so many turbo and vavetrain components that I want to protect under high stress and heat. Plus in colder temps at startup it'll work its way through the engine quicker than heavier weight oil would.

[DEATH]

While we are on the subject: I was planning to use Mobile1 15w50 on my 3S at the next oil change [mind you this will be this rebuilt motor's first oil change - been running on regular old Pennzoil 10w40 for the first oil filled at startup per some recomendation I found on this site to use dino oil for the break in period]
It's not cold here in Tx anymore - does anyone see any problems with that thick of oil?

This post has been edited by DEATH: Mar 12, 2008 - 10:11 AM

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Whats the reason you want to run something as heavy as 15w50?

In my opinion theres much better grades of oil to use on a 3SGTE. Stick with a synthetic 5w30 or 10w30 and it will work just fine and it will flow through the motor more properly.

[DEATH]

Increased wear protection. I'm aware that it will take longer at startup to get the oil to the head and Turbo but I always use OEM filters [I know this doesn't neccessarily negate the problem but should help].
My '93 MR2 Owner's Manual says 10w40. You guys are using lighter weight oil - any reasons for that?

[Fastbird]

I'd run a thicker oil as opposed to a thinner oil in a turbo car. Heat will thin the oil out and you can easily see a pressure drop from that. I was running a 20w50 last summer for a short amount of time. Other than it tanking a couple seconds for pressure to come up on startup I noticed no other effects and a slight bump in hot pressure at idle.

[DEATH]

I'd run a thicker oil as opposed to a thinner oil in a turbo car. Heat will thin the oil out and you can easily see a pressure drop from that. I was running a 20w50 last summer for a short amount of time. Other than it tanking a couple seconds for pressure to come up on startup I noticed no other effects and a slight bump in hot pressure at idle.

Sounds right to me [Pressure bump and time to come up]. Should also help the wear a bit too. My only concern is that Turbo wasn't rebuilt at the time and it may have some oil coking already and I'd hate to starve it.
Anybody think I ought to switch to Mobile1 but stay at 10w40 at least for a little while longer? I'm thinking I should probably just hang on to the 15w50 until the dead heat of the summer when it will need it here - badly. More 3S's die in the summer here than any other season I've noticed [MR2T friends and past experience]. Could just be coincedence but IDK.
I just want my girl to receive the best of treatment.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Mar 12, 2008 - 11:21 AM

[x_itchy_b_x]

the summer killing 3sgtes is heat soak and knock. least thats my assumption.

i'm using a canton racing oil filter relocator and have the lines set up like a triangle. first i goes into the filter, then out of the filter into the cooler then from the cooler to the block. all big hydraulic 10an lines. great oil pressure and havent had any problems yet.

if your concerned with oiling so much get a moroso pan also.

[DEATH]

Itchy - what oil you runnin?

[x_itchy_b_x]

mobile-1 10w30, change it every 3-4k miles.

[Fastbird]

the summer killing 3sgtes is heat soak and knock. least thats my assumption.

I'd be inclined to agree with this also.

Itchy.......got a link to that filter relocation kit? I'd like to check that out.

[WALKER]

the summer killing 3sgtes is heat soak and knock. least thats my assumption.

I'd be inclined to agree with this also.

Itchy.......got a link to that filter relocation kit? I'd like to check that out.

I am guessing he is probably using one of the 90deg rotating billet.

[x_itchy_b_x]

correct ^ Manny showed me this part from canton.

[presure2]

yup.
nascar uses some of these guys parts.
i figure if its good enough for them, its good enough for me.
ive had mine on the car going on 3 years, and 40,000 miles, and it works like a champ.

[Fastbird]

Hows about some pics of the setup?? That'd be niiiice.