4AGZE Swap Options

[mikecelica]

I've been planning on turboing my st for a while now, got all the parts, but after going through all the costs with parts and labor I've come to a total of $3100, which I think is waay too much for 40-50hp (If even that). I wouldnt be getting much horsepower, plus risk damaging the engine, and say goodbye to the toyota reliability. So Im thinking now of just swapping in a 4agze, Ive been reading up alot about this and what i wanna know is why people think its such a difficult swap and that only few people have attempted it? Ive gone through this with a mechanic at toyota dealership that I work at. And he too says its the most simplest of swaps. All i really need is the engine,ecu,wiring harness,4age flywheel with using my 7afe tranny and same motor mounts. Thats pretty much it, unless I put in FMIC, but I've heard they benefit more from TMIC. The 4agze from the Levin from has about 170hp at stock psi (7psi) and at full boost (14psi) it should reach around 190hp or more with some pulleys and an safc. Plus another advantage would be that this engine was built to handle boost so its alot more safe than a 7afte. This mechanic has a 88 corolla gts with the 4agze and an mr2 4agze and they are faast. So I just wanna hear some thoughts on this. thanks

This post has been edited by mikecelica: Mar 14, 2008 - 7:21 PM

[JoKeRkId613]

it is simple. a lot of people just prefer the 3s. be unique and get a 4agze.

[mikecelica]

I tried searching around but had no luck, are there any members on here tha have the 4agze dropped in?

[mikecelica]

any thoughts?

[airfron]

here is an informative thread on a swap that Dr_Tweak did http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...47&hl=4agze

Dickster223 and FAQdaWorld are the only people on here with completed swaps that i know of.

I was planning on the swap as well but am hesitant to be without transportation for however long it may take me to complete it. I guess i'm just procrastinating before actually following through with my goals.

[Hanyo]

swaping a 4agze is not a bad idea, considering there is a whole lot more after market support for that engine compared to the 7afe.

BUT before you get drawn into the swap engine scene, do the math and find out how much it will actually cost to get that engine installed and upgraded.

Dollar for dollar i think it would be cheaper to turbocharge the 7afe, because your not wasting money on swaping anything out. All the parts you purchased are UPGRADES.

Where as a 4agze, the swap will take most of your funds. After the swap you will still need to buy upgrades.

It all boils down to how healthy your current engine is, if your 7afe is new and healthy then turbo charge. Because you have no clue how many miles and condition the 4agze will be in.

[Silver94CelicaOw...]

Heres my .02...

Spend the money you'll be puting into your setup either way in the smartest of places....by purchasing the absolute cleanest 4AGZE clip that you can from a Levin.


Tear the Celica down and tear the clip down, and send out your harnesses to get the wiring done by Tweak since he has already done it in the past. With that out of the way, the most challenging part is out of the way. You can use all your current mounts, transmission, axles, starter, flywheel, just like you said....pretty straightfoward.
From there, all you would need would be a slightly higher duty fuel pump from an All-Trac/GT-Four or N/A 2JZ-GE Supra to make sure you don't run the motor short of fuel, and a FMIC or an aftermarket water to air unit. Keeping the top mounted cooler will soak in ALOT of heat if you keep it....and detonation isn't any fun.




4AGZE is a pretty viable option and it really isn't any more complicated than any other swap. I would say to go for it, without a doubt. 7AFE's and 4AFE's both have a tendancy to get leaky valve oil seals when they hit high mileage, and they have tiny little intake and exhaust runners too which are a limitation when you add boost to the picture. Plus the bottom end isn't nearly as robust on an un-opened 7AFE.

With the 4AGZE, you'll have a supercharged factory setup with a free flowing head with a strong bottom end that you won't ever have to worry about failing....for the same investment. If your power requirements ever change you can either upgrade pulleys, add a turbocharger and twin-charge it, or make it all turbo and beat the snot out of it without any worries.



Good luck.



-Corey

[mikecelica]

With a cusco pulleys the 4agze can make up to 14psi safely. So If you were to turbo it and remove the supercharger, At 14lbs and a t3/t4 50trim it should make well over 200hp?

[jason]

stevenson and i were talking about this swap...

i dont know the weight of a 3s engine or the weight of the 4a, but i presume its significantly lighter.

so if in the end you save yourself say... 200-300 lbs... id say that if you get 200hp outta the 4a compared to 260 with a 3s, i am going to assume that the 4a is going to be pretty close to drag speeds with the 3s.. but with the weight advantage, im also going to assume its going to allow the car to handle much better.

not to mention, if you budget $4,000 (i wouldnt go with an safc for tunning btw) that gets you a good amount of cushion for the swap, and also plenty of room for goodies.

make sure to keep the sc so it can whine like all hell when your on it... i LOVE that sound!!!!

[creis]

I've been toying with the idea of going for a 4age blacktop then supercharging it later down the road depending on the power I want to get out of it. in my case I'm not going for high hp, but a more orginal quick and clean car and of corse I want the 6spd too, I say go for it from what I understand its not a hard swap as you say, although your risking the "toyota reliability" just doing a swap in general

[Culpable04]

the swap is not " bad " for a ST, some people will argue that " its not as powerful as a 3S " and that's true, stock per stock the 3s is a stronger ( HP wise ) motor, but both have good potential. if you plan on keeping the 4AGZE stock ( rated @ ~ 165 hp at crank ) make sure the power will be enough for you, after all us ST guys, we get the joy of ~ 90 hp at the wheels on a healthy engine lol. the 6 speed tranny option is more for bragging rights, I search on different forums and this tranny is weak, doesn't take abuse and can't hold extra power, the tranny is great for N/A engines, a better tranny IMHO is a 5 speed with a hydrolyc LSD from MR-2 and some levin.


I was reading on a 4AGTE set-up using a 4AGZE + silver top intake manifold and custom exhaust manifold + HKS cam shaft + HKS cam gears + supporting fuel up grades, someone on Australia got 245 HP at the wheels. That's not bad,

everything needed can be had for US$1500.00 and if you want more power work on a custom turbo kit, I'd be happy with anything over 200 hp at the wheels, but it'll be some time before I can do anything like this to my car. too much going on in my life at the time.

This post has been edited by Culpable04: Mar 18, 2008 - 10:46 PM

[97lestyousay]

Do you have a link to the 4agte I would really like to see his setup, I am starting a 4agte project
soon and there just doesn't seem to be that much info on turbo builds.

the swap is not " bad " for a ST, some people will argue that " its not as powerful as a 3S " and that's true, stock per stock the 3s is a stronger ( HP wise ) motor, but both have good potential. if you plan on keeping the 4AGZE stock ( rated @ ~ 165 hp at crank ) make sure the power will be enough for you, after all us ST guys, we get the joy of ~ 90 hp at the wheels on a healthy engine lol. the 6 speed tranny option is more for bragging rights, I search on different forums and this tranny is weak, doesn't take abuse and can't hold extra power, the tranny is great for N/A engines, a better tranny IMHO is a 5 speed with a hydrolyc LSD from MR-2 and some levin.


I was reading on a 4AGTE set-up using a 4AGZE + silver top intake manifold and custom exhaust manifold + HKS cam shaft + HKS cam gears + supporting fuel up grades, someone on Australia got 245 HP at the wheels. That's not bad,

everything needed can be had for US$1500.00 and if you want more power work on a custom turbo kit, I'd be happy with anything over 200 hp at the wheels, but it'll be some time before I can do anything like this to my car. too much going on in my life at the time.

This post has been edited by 97lestyousay: Mar 19, 2008 - 11:46 PM

[Culpable04]

I can look for it, I'm also trying to get some info from another guy who has a completely stock 4agze ( expect intake manifold ) with a very basic turbo kit ( no supercharger ) he dyno'ed his engine a couple months ago, and he got 195 hp at 0.8 bar, there is a video of his dyno run on youtube. This engine is installed in a datsun.

when I get time I'll seat down and put a few links together. " leaving for work "

[Culpable04]

youtube dyno run

toymods discussion

I haven't found the other discussion, I'll posted when I find it.

[ILuvMyCelica95]

I have to say I'd LOVE to see someone do this and have a full write up on it.

200,000 miles is sneaking up on me and this option has always been a thought because it's a lot less work then a 3s regarding axles, tranny and mounts. Seeing as I just swapped to a manual I have a lot of fairly new parts in that area and would like to utilize that.

The majority of the site have GTs and most of the swaps we hear about are 3sgte. I'd love to see more people go outside of the norm with a 4AGZE.

So if you do go with this option I want LOTS of details.

cliff notes: DOO EET.

[Culpable04]

The only thing holding me back right now is that I'm in the process of moving, so until I'm established and find a Corolla 1997 to drive around as a beater this will be on hold, this engine completely stock ( internals ) just by adding a turbo you get ~ 200 hp at the wheels, the stock ECU takes boost from the turbo like it was meant to be like that, but It'll run a little rich so some tuning will be needed to have a nice A/F ratio. The only problem I've seen with this so far is the lack of stronger trannys for this set-up, so I'm gonna try to stay ~ 200 at the wheels for daily and ~ 250 for " fun days " for ST guys this would be as easy as putting a 3s in a GT, no more drilling holes for new mounts and playing with axels and such, and the best of all this engine sets ( including a tranny that may come with hydrolic LSD ) for less than US$1600.00 plus shipping. so I'm thinking of US$3000.00 budget for this to cover the extra parts and little things that will come up.

[CelicaST_CALI]

3100$ for turboing????wat are ur prices for various parts,that seems wayyy over..

[jason]

thats 3100 with a new engine and all parts to swap the sc for a turbo. pretty fair to me.

[jesterwr217]

where would i be able to pick up JUST the 4agze engine

[monkey]

it was in various cars from 86-95... i believe it was in a certain prism i think a gsi or something like that from like 90-93 i believe... maybe thats just the 4age... someone correct me if im wrong....

vvvv...this is the engine and the tranny... vvvv

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-MR2-...tem180224627433


This post has been edited by monkey: Mar 23, 2008 - 6:50 PM

[jesterwr217]

it was in various cars from 86-95... i believe it was in a certain prism i think a gsi or something like that from like 90-93 i believe... maybe thats just the 4age... someone correct me if im wrong....

well i know it came in the first gen mr2 and the jdm corollas im just tryn to find a good place to buy just the engine, ecu, and harness

[Culpable04]

you want a complete swap kit, not just the engine, and if you want to make it turbo instead of supercharged, you'll also need a silver top intake manifold since the 4AGZE will be facing the wrong side. I've checked and prices on eBay are very good, just do some research on the seller as some of them don't include everything needed for the swap. In my case when I solve my space issue I'll go pick one up at a local engine importer so I'll know for sure everything will be there.

if you get a MR2 4agze you'll have to make minor changes as some of the stuff will be oriented differently, so do your best to find a 4agze from a levin or corolla, since they are FWD it'll be a better suit for the celica.

[jesterwr217]

you want a complete swap kit, not just the engine, and if you want to make it turbo instead of supercharged, you'll also need a silver top intake manifold since the 4AGZE will be facing the wrong side. I've checked and prices on eBay are very good, just do some research on the seller as some of them don't include everything needed for the swap. In my case when I solve my space issue I'll go pick one up at a local engine importer so I'll know for sure everything will be there.

if you get a MR2 4agze you'll have to make minor changes as some of the stuff will be oriented differently, so do your best to find a 4agze from a levin or corolla, since they are FWD it'll be a better suit for the celica.

im not looking to turbo just the supercharger with cusco pully thats why all i would need is the 4agze the harness and the ecu

[Culpable04]

in your particular case that wouldn't make much sense, a 4agze with a cusco pulley will net you the same if not less power than your 7afte.

[jesterwr217]

in your particular case that wouldn't make much sense, a 4agze with a cusco pulley will net you the same if not less power than your 7afte.

im saying thats all i need to do the swap after that ill save up for the rest of my goodies

[Culpable04]

4AGZE turbo write up !

This post has been edited by Culpable04: Mar 23, 2008 - 9:05 PM

[97lestyousay]

Thats a really good write up. The intake he used looks like the small port 4age non tvis.
Are all gzes large port?

This post has been edited by 97lestyousay: Mar 28, 2008 - 4:58 PM

[Culpable04]

Thats a really good write up. The intake he used looks like the small port 4age non tvis.
Are all gzes large port?

[97lestyousay]

Everyone I have asked says use the large port head for a turbo build
from what that shows, I don't see why. The small port comes stock
with bigger injectors, and makes more power than the large port.
To me that says better flow.

[Culpable04]

I would use a small port because of the MAP, and younger motor, but I think most people prefer big port heads because of the lower C/R and better flow ( don't quote me on the flow preference since I don't really know the differences on flow from one head to the other )

other random things I've been reading / thinking
4agze's have forged piston in stock form, that's one of the reasons why these motors run a little rough when cold until they're up to temp. so this engine comes built for good daily power on stock form, our only problem is the tranny, the 6 speed tranny is not an option for power builts, they are wayy to weak. Unlike the 3S guys we don't have a E153 option and the stock ST tranny's are not the best for big power applications, our best chance is with the C-52 that comes on some levin and JDM MR-2s with a hydrolic LSD, and a big turbo so we don't boost too early to lose traction. I was gonna swap my car before paint but the paint on my car is in such a poor condition that I can't do that, I'm gonna be painting the car within the next 2-3 months and if I don't get a job I just applied for I'm gonna use the time to swap the car before Sept when I'll be back to school.

This post has been edited by Culpable04: Mar 29, 2008 - 10:15 PM

[mikecelica]

I was wondering if we wanted to swap a 4agze into an st if we would have the same problem as GT guys who only buy a 3sgte engine set? For example
"If you just bought engine, ecu, tranny, wiring harness.
You would be missing: 3rd ECU plug, AFM, ignitor, coil, injector resistor pack, fuel pump resistor, fuel pump relay, turbo pressure sensor, air intake piping, and probably some other stuff."
Is this the same for swapping a 4agze into an ST also? thanks
"

[nik]

Everyone I have asked says use the large port head for a turbo build
from what that shows, I don't see why. The small port comes stock
with bigger injectors, and makes more power than the large port.
To me that says better flow.

think of it this way when you port and polish a head for more flow you widen it
the big port head is bigger by like 25% stock to stock with the same port
so when you turbo and you want all the flow you can get so starting the big port is the way to go

now this all depends on your power goals



http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...mp;#entry470819


http://www.billzilla.org/4agstock.htm

[mikecelica]

I was wondering if we wanted to swap a 4agze into an st if we would have the same problem as GT guys who only buy a 3sgte engine set? For example
"If you just bought engine, ecu, tranny, wiring harness.
You would be missing: 3rd ECU plug, AFM, ignitor, coil, injector resistor pack, fuel pump resistor, fuel pump relay, turbo pressure sensor, air intake piping, and probably some other stuff."
Is this the same for swapping a 4agze into an ST also? thanks
"

Does anybody know?

[Culpable04]

you'll be missing ( not exactly the same items as 3S guys ) but you have to make sure you get a COMPLETE swap set with all sensors and un cut wiring harness, etc.

[Zeros2]

http://www.fnfmotors.ca/JDM-Engine-4A-GZE-...fnf-toyota9.htm would this be what i am looking for if i just want to ditch this 90hp 7afe and get the 4agze

[Stambo]

I've been reading up on this swap for awhile and i'm still planning to swap for the 4agze. i figured it be a good autox engine since the high revs. One question, if i find the engine out of a corolla/levin the powersteering will work in our cars... Yes? I've heard that the mounts for the ac and powersteering arn't right or something or another.

[soulshadow]

ahh back from the dead posts... Anyways, if your 7A is still running fine I would just keep it stock that way. If your wanting for more ponies for whatever reason then I suggest you do go a 3S. The 4a is great but in our fat cars it won't be much of a thrill seeker. If HP is all you want perhaps its time to get a different car that has Ponies in it to begin with.