4" intake on 3rd gen 3sgte, disscussion topic! GIVE YOUR 2 CENTS! Options

[presure2]

hey guys, as you know, jim now has the 3rd gen 3s in his car, and after doing some research around various boards, he decided he wanted to try a 4" intake.

now, before you all go nuts, the guys down @ hux racing in florida claim HUGE gains with a 4" over a 3" intake, and have posted some results.

here are a couple "copy paste" deals from mr2.com:

We always figured my street car made at least 280 rwhp. Until we dynoed it on our new Dynojet. The only mods are: our air intake mod 4", Blitz SBC boost controller, our 3" single tip exhaust, & boost cut defeated.

328 rwhp & 316 rwt

This is on a maxed out ct20b, stock ecu, stock injectors, genIII fuel pump, & stock intercooler. This was attained using 100 octane.

heres the dyno sheet:

The GenIII swaps we do I always push them to use our air intake mod since we have seen consistent results using that combo (4" K& N air filter, 4" inlet tube, custom coolant relocator hose).

so, with that in mind, (and the fact that hux racing wants 400$ for somthing they wont even show you a picture of) we decided to give it a shot.

since the inlet of the '20b is only 2.75" (yes, i know its a mm mesurement, but for all intents we all use a 2.75" reducer anyway..lol) we had to find a way to reduce the 4" pipe down to that.

since we couldnt find anyone who makes a 4" to 2.75" reducer, and the fact that i thought it would be kinda flimsy, if we could find one, i headed over to burns stainless to see what they had.

they carry 2 diffrent styles of "trumpets" (reducers) a longer style, and a shorter. so we got the 4" to 3" trumpet, and because of the limited room we have to work with, we chose the shorter style.
heres a pic of what it looks like, with the coke can for size reference.




once i got that in, and the coupler to mate the pipe to the turbo, i went out to the garage, and cut the pipe to set it up:



thats the basic idea, i just need to weld a couple bungs for the IAC and catch can, and weld it up.

im hoping we can get back to back dynos at some point real soon with a 3" intake vs this one, the only thing i need is a 4" k&n, or a 3" ebay special so the tests will be the same with no variables.
if everything shakes down right, we could do this on both dustin, and jims cars, to get more results on diffrent cars, to see what kinda results we can truly get.


discuss!!

[pipes]

I tried it after being @ ur house sounds cool only problem I think is heat because its steel it absorbs all the heat so after awhile your sucking hot air.....from your picks your getting air from the factory spot? I found that leaving a headlight out to be effective as engine bay temps were cooler...I ended up returning to factory because I'm trying to escape heat me and my buddy fabbed up a cold box were gonna fit it on sat hopefully I'll let you know

This post has been edited by pipes: Nov 26, 2008 - 11:18 AM

[DEATH]

im hoping we can get back to back dynos at some point real soon with a 3" intake vs this one, the only thing i need is a 4" k&n, or a 3" ebay special so the tests will be the same with no variables.
if everything shakes down right, we could do this on both dustin, and jims cars, to get more results on diffrent cars, to see what kinda results we can truly get.

To keep the variables more in control you can get the cheap Spectre filter from just about anywhere and it comes reduced from 4" to like 2.5" in three steps. If you used that one filter with the adapters the results would be more controlled and correct.
Edit: This one:
http://www.spectreperformance.com/#CATALOG.8132
Cheap and they work pretty good. Just for this experiment it would be perfect

This post has been edited by DEATH: Nov 26, 2008 - 11:32 AM

[RUNNIN-LOW]

k..knowing that running 20psi with stock computer and everything, the car should be doing about 290 to 300 to the wheel on race gas. not sure what the true max of the ct20b is but lets say its 22psi, a intake should only (if it works right) put about 5-12 gain in horse (<----after stock intake), correct me if im wrong but im not totally sure about the horse gain is. but i cant see at 20psi(is stock ct20b max) making a 40-50hp gain with just a 4inch intake??? but sayin at at 22psi you make 305-315hp then u add the 4inch intake and make 328 to 316 then thats is believeable.
so what im getting to is that with a 4inch intake you can make a reliable 40-50 hp gain damn!!, but yeah testing it would be great.
i myself was planning on making a 4inch icebox and see what the differents is.

ok here is a crazy story..my buddy with his 92 civic with a swap b18c use to have a injen cold air intake right..he went and got it dyno at 218 to the wheel. after it got stolen he decided to make his own as a joke untill he got a replacement. so he went and got 4inch pvc pipe and fab his own up. decided to go to the dyno for fun since we all was going to get our dyno and amazing things was that when he went and dyno he made more power with the pvc intake then the injen one..228hp

so it could happen but im not sure if u can really get 40-50 horse gain...

This post has been edited by RUNNIN-LOW: Nov 26, 2008 - 11:53 AM

[presure2]

yup, now that you say that, i actually have those reducers from the first filter jim sent.
that works.

[DEATH]

NP - glad to help. This also reinforces what I've said before about 2.5" intake piping vs 3" - this is just taking it one step further. What size IC piping would you suggest after this mod?

[presure2]

I tried it after being @ ur house sounds cool only problem I think is heat because its steel it absorbs all the heat so after awhile your sucking hot air.....from your picks your getting air from the factory spot? I found that leaving a headlight out to be effective as engine bay temps were cooler...I ended up returning to factory because I'm trying to escape heat me and my buddy fabbed up a cold box were gonna fit it on sat hopefully I'll let you know

yea, aluminum would be a better choice for piping, but unfortunatly i dont have a tig welder (and dont know how to weld with it for that matter!) so this is pretty much what i can do for now.
we do have options as far as coatings ect to try and help with that, although to be honest, im not too worried about it, we've been using this style of intake on swaps and 5sftes with great results so far, and at SOME point down the road i really would like to get into a tig setup.
a cold box is a great idea, i need to start working on some ideas for somthing.

NP - glad to help. This also reinforces what I've said before about 2.5" intake piping vs 3" - this is just taking it one step further. What size IC piping would you suggest after this mod?

ohh i dont know on that, since this is a 3rd gen setup, with factory IC, there is no piping. lol

but i would imagine that guys doing somthing like this would be going big anyway, so i would guess 3" ic piping.
i think of course the gains would be better with a larger turbo ect. that would utilize the extra flow potential, especially those with a larger turbo inlet.

[lagos]

It will be really interesting to see your dyno results, Manny.

Did they ever post a before dyno on the same car?
Its kind of odd to think that a bigger intake would give any kind of gains, because the actual 2.75in turbo inlet is aways going to be the bottle neck. The real gains seem to be from the fact that they were able to hit 24psi of boost on the ct20b. I know from talking to califcarm, he had to use helper springs on his wg just to be able to run around 20psi on the street, and on the dyno he claimed to be able to hit a little bit less then that. So perhaps the real gains from this intake might not be seen at pump gas boost levels but only when pushing the turbo to its limits with race gas or a lot of alcohol injection.
Either way, thats a really nice intake.
Damn you 3rd gen guys and your lack of afm....damn yooooouuuu.. lol

Do you have a link to the original thread this came from?

[presure2]

k..knowing that running 20psi with stock computer and everything, the car should be doing about 290 to 300 to the wheel on race gas. not sure what the true max of the ct20b is but lets say its 22psi, a intake should only (if it works right) put about 5-12 gain in horse (<----after stock intake), correct me if im wrong but im not totally sure about the horse gain is. but i cant see at 20psi(is stock ct20b max) making a 40-50hp gain with just a 4inch intake??? but sayin at at 22psi you make 305-315hp then u add the 4inch intake and make 328 to 316 then thats is believeable.
so what im getting to is that with a 4inch intake you can make a reliable 40-50 hp gain damn!!, but yeah testing it would be great.
i myself was planning on making a 4inch icebox and see what the differents is.

ok here is a crazy story..my buddy with his 92 civic with a swap b18c use to have a injen cold air intake right..he went and got it dyno at 218 to the wheel. after it got stolen he decided to make his own as a joke untill he got a replacement. so he went and got 4inch pvc pipe and fab his own up. decided to go to the dyno for fun since we all was going to get our dyno and amazing things was that when he went and dyno he made more power with the pvc intake then the injen one..228hp

so it could happen but im not sure if u can really get 40-50 horse gain...

yea, i would imagine the huxs' results are the extreme, but the idea is an interesting one, so we figured why not give it a shot for ourselfs, and see what we can come up with.
if everything works out, we should be able to get some solid info on the diffrence between the 2 are, and hey, i do think we still have a stock 3rd gen airbox laying around, we could prolly try that as well!

It will be really interesting to see your dyno results, Manny.

Did they ever post a before dyno on the same car?
Its kind of odd to think that a bigger intake would give any kind of gains, because the actual 2.75in turbo inlet is aways going to be the bottle neck. The real gains seem to be from the fact that they were able to hit 24psi of boost on the ct20b. I know from talking to califcarm, he had to use helper springs on his wg just to be able to run around 20psi on the street, and on the dyno he claimed to be able to hit a little bit less then that. So perhaps the real gains from this intake might not be seen at pump gas boost levels but only when pushing the turbo to its limits with race gas or a lot of alcohol injection.
Either way, thats a really nice intake.
Damn you 3rd gen guys and your lack of afm....damn yooooouuuu.. lol

Do you have a link to the original thread this came from?

yea, i've thought of that too art.
jim really wants to push the stock 3rd gen setup for a bit till he saves up for his kit he wants a bit down the road, so we'll see what happens as we go along..
heres a link to his baseline run thread, it has a link to the thread the stuff i copy/pasted is from.
http://www.mr2.com/forums/gen-3-3s-gte/Toy...dyno-graph.html

going back out now to finish up, ill post more pics later.

[RUNNIN-LOW]

It will be really interesting to see your dyno results, Manny.

Did they ever post a before dyno on the same car?
Its kind of odd to think that a bigger intake would give any kind of gains, because the actual 2.75in turbo inlet is aways going to be the bottle neck. The real gains seem to be from the fact that they were able to hit 24psi of boost on the ct20b. I know from talking to califcarm, he had to use helper springs on his wg just to be able to run around 20psi on the street, and on the dyno he claimed to be able to hit a little bit less then that. So perhaps the real gains from this intake might not be seen at pump gas boost levels but only when pushing the turbo to its limits with race gas or a lot of alcohol injection.
Either way, thats a really nice intake.
Damn you 3rd gen guys and your lack of afm....damn yooooouuuu.. lol

Do you have a link to the original thread this came from?

lagos why dont u run 3rd gen electronic like mr.wot on celica tech??u get rid of the afm and stuff. i have a 3rd gen ecu going on sell soon haha..but yeah ill have to try this out with my t3/t4 upgrade and see what power i can produce.

[lagos]

I don't think the 3rd gen electronics would be worth the cost as I wouldn't really be gaining anything other then a map based setup.
My plan is to ditch the factory ecu altogether and install megasquirt. That way I would have a map based system and the ability to datalog and tune.
For now my SARD rom tuned ecu is keeping me happy

This post has been edited by lagos: Nov 26, 2008 - 12:57 PM

[RUNNIN-LOW]

ok i know we are going off topic a little but really quick..i have a couple buddys running megasquirt and they said it is hella confusing..but some do say it isnt at all..i dont know the honda crome is doing really ncie for me now. just need to figure out the 2-step haha..

[lagos]

Ill send you a pm so we dont go way offtopic here.

[presure2]

ok back on topic
here are a couple finished pics.

[RUNNIN-LOW]

not bad pressure damn!!!your going to have to make me one too!!!!looks good man those welds are awesome looks like it came like that haha..did you guys relocate the battery too or is the battery stil going to sit there??

[presure2]

not bad pressure damn!!!your going to have to make me one too!!!!looks good man those welds are awesome looks like it came like that haha..did you guys relocate the battery too or is the battery stil going to sit there??

battery is in the trunk.
we relocated it back when they had the 2nd gen motor.
im sure eventually jim will want to have the battery tray taken out, its only a matter of cutting a hand full of welds.

[RUNNIN-LOW]

stupid question but how come u didnt make it come straight out?? any reason..have u tried it out or even started the car and see if it idles different or anything?

[presure2]

stupid question but how come u didnt make it come straight out?? any reason..have u tried it out or even started the car and see if it idles different or anything?

i like puting there vs straight out cause there it at least gets a little cool air over the filter from the fender well.
it shouldnt idle any diffrent, in theory the turbo should be louder when it spools.
im still waiting on the IC pump to come in to really drive it. ive driven it a bit, but nothing crazy. yet! lol

[_Jim_]

LOL, I didn't know getting rid of the battery tray was an option, well that thing doesn't stand a chance now LOL

[lagos]

The finished intake looks really good dude. Very bad ass and mean looking.
Did you get the 1/2in piping from burns as well?
That was one thing that I always had trouble sourcing when I was making my intakes.

[presure2]

The finished intake looks really good dude. Very bad ass and mean looking.
Did you get the 1/2in piping from burns as well?
That was one thing that I always had trouble sourcing when I was making my intakes.

1/2"? the 2 nipples are smaller than 1/2" i think.
the AIC one is ~10mm (i drill out a nipple from an exhaust hanger for that one) and for the catch can one i use the nipple that is in the intake, just cut in half.

[95st-celica]

looks good...very nice work..just curious as to why you dint take the piping further and put it down in the fender well almost like the stock unit...with the air filter sucking up almost all cold air? do you think it would be worth it? would it fit is also another question...i think with a 4" pipe you might have to cut a hole or 2 to get it to fit down in there...i know with mine i had to do a little trimming...looks good though

[presure2]

looks good...very nice work..just curious as to why you dint take the piping further and put it down in the fender well almost like the stock unit...with the air filter sucking up almost all cold air? do you think it would be worth it? would it fit is also another question...i think with a 4" pipe you might have to cut a hole or 2 to get it to fit down in there...i know with mine i had to do a little trimming...looks good though

a couple of reasons.
#1, jim dont have underbody plastics. water = no no.

#2, i think it looks silly.

#3, i dont think it'd be worth it with all the extra piping.

[DEATH]

looks good...very nice work..just curious as to why you dint take the piping further and put it down in the fender well almost like the stock unit...with the air filter sucking up almost all cold air? do you think it would be worth it? would it fit is also another question...i think with a 4" pipe you might have to cut a hole or 2 to get it to fit down in there...i know with mine i had to do a little trimming...looks good though

a couple of reasons.
#1, jim dont have underbody plastics. water = no no.

#2, i think it looks silly.

#3, i dont think it'd be worth it with all the extra piping.

Point #3 is a very good one [The rest are as well] - don't you think the two extreme bends and the 3' of extra piping negates the minimal effect slightly colder air would give? This is why I always tell people don't bother unless you just want the bragging rights or the look.

This post has been edited by DEATH: Nov 27, 2008 - 8:47 AM

[presure2]

looks good...very nice work..just curious as to why you dint take the piping further and put it down in the fender well almost like the stock unit...with the air filter sucking up almost all cold air? do you think it would be worth it? would it fit is also another question...i think with a 4" pipe you might have to cut a hole or 2 to get it to fit down in there...i know with mine i had to do a little trimming...looks good though

a couple of reasons.
#1, jim dont have underbody plastics. water = no no.

#2, i think it looks silly.

#3, i dont think it'd be worth it with all the extra piping.

Point #3 is a very good one [The rest are as well] - don't you think the two extreme bends and the 3' of extra piping negates the minimal effect slightly colder air would give? This is why I always tell people don't bother unless you just want the bragging rights or the look.

yes. i mean, not like i have back to back tests to really say one way or the other, but its my opinion, and for now im sticking to it..lmao.

[_Jim_]

k..knowing that running 20psi with stock computer and everything, the car should be doing about 290 to 300 to the wheel on race gas. not sure what the true max of the ct20b is but lets say its 22psi, a intake should only (if it works right) put about 5-12 gain in horse (<----after stock intake), correct me if im wrong but im not totally sure about the horse gain is. but i cant see at 20psi(is stock ct20b max) making a 40-50hp gain with just a 4inch intake??? but sayin at at 22psi you make 305-315hp then u add the 4inch intake and make 328 to 316 then thats is believeable.
so what im getting to is that with a 4inch intake you can make a reliable 40-50 hp gain damn!!, but yeah testing it would be great.
i myself was planning on making a 4inch icebox and see what the differents is.

ok here is a crazy story..my buddy with his 92 civic with a swap b18c use to have a injen cold air intake right..he went and got it dyno at 218 to the wheel. after it got stolen he decided to make his own as a joke untill he got a replacement. so he went and got 4inch pvc pipe and fab his own up. decided to go to the dyno for fun since we all was going to get our dyno and amazing things was that when he went and dyno he made more power with the pvc intake then the injen one..228hp

so it could happen but im not sure if u can really get 40-50 horse gain...

I dont really understand why you keep saying 40-50whp gains with no additions other than a 4" intake. You seem to clear it up again when you guess at HP levels at 22psi without a 4" intake being 315, and when the 4" intake is added you quote the actual numbers made of 328. Meaning at this point in time the only difference being the actual 4" intake (still 22 psi) and not different boost pressures. so the intake made an additional 13whp with the number you posted.

As far as the "max" the CT20B can produce, nobody knows yet. Hux recently modded the wastegate actuator on a customers car and hit 30+ psi at 4000rpms where he had to (QUICKLY LOLOLOL) stop the run, it should be interesting to see what PSI he plans to run when he sorts out the wastegate actuator.

And you said 290-300whp at 20psi on race gas.....why? I plan on running 20psi on 93 pump gas, and water injecion. Do you say race gas because you dynoed your car on race gas and this is just the information you know from first hand experience?

And while we are on the topic of race gas and power, I may have some info mistaken. From what I have read race gas in a Great tool for experimenting with higher boost levels. This is because it burns slower and cooler than 93, and chances of knock are less likely to occur. I know you are able to achieve higher boost levels than with regular 93, but I don't know if there is much of a change in spool because I haven't seen a dyno run just to see the different characteristics race gas has on a car, with all other mods being the same. But as for added HP, and this where I could be wrong, I dont think there are HP gains to be had just by running race gas. I have heard +10 whp....but again I have only heard of that, never seen any actual info showing me that. Now, I am not saying you CANT get more horsepower out of race gas on the same setup, but you need to tune for it. You can run race gas much leaner than you can 93....safe afr's seem to range 12-5-13.0 where as pump gas safe afrs seem to be aimed at 11.5. So there are quite a few gains to be had there. I know that was a little off topic, but maybe I can tie it in here. If boosted achieved 290-300whp at 20psi on race gas untuned stock GE3 ecu, then I would expect 290-300whp at 20psi on pump gas untuned stock GEN3 ecu and WI (I wouldn't feel to good running these boost pressures without WI, this is why I stated that)

[_Jim_]

Oh, and manny that would be a great idea to also include the stock air box for testing. When you purchase a performance product from a company, the hp numbers are always measured against stock. And if my pump doesnt come in time, see if Dustin will run his car on the dyno with the stock air box, his 3" intake, and my 4" intake.

[RUNNIN-LOW]

Ok let me clear it up with u jim maybe I just posted something wrong or typed it wrong knowing from my own tune. With everything stock and at20psi u can make that much power...I didn't qoute anything but I was sure I read that they said there car was making about 280 around there to the wheel. Then with there 4inch intake and race gas they made 348 or something. I wasn't taking about my car I was talking about the mr2 guy. Ill have to het on my comp to fix this if I miss typed anything on the stupid goggle phone and it sucks!
But u know ii would like to see if there is a change in power with the stock set and the 4inch monster...

[_Jim_]

o0o0o0o I know what you are talking about. No in his thread he states that "they always assumed they made at least 280whp" but in fact when they strapped it to the dyno they were making 328 at 23 psi. List of mods
4" intake
Boost Controller
Boost defender
3" exhaust

Stock fuel, stock ecu, stock GEN3 fuel pump, and stock intercooler (its in an mr2 for those who dont know)

[RUNNIN-LOW]

i just put the always assumed 280hp and compared it with there 348hp..also i didnt take the time to go read the whole forum that they posted up i didnt even know they did 23psi...so basicly i coulda have made that much too then, nah i would have never did it anyways to afraid to blow turbos that i dont have. man 23psi..nice to know now..

[_Jim_]

Well all the info I posted was on the first page of that thread. LOL you are surprised to hear 23psi, there are a few Mr2OC members boosting above 25psi. In fact one member was boosting 29psi on his daily driven GEN3 Mr2 with a gt28rs!

[darthripley]

i'm interested to see the results, but i personally feel there would be many other bottlenecks at higher boost levels that would yield more hp such as the intake manifold & throttle body.
obviously 4" intake piping is substantially cheaper than the above mentioned upgrades.
just because you can run 20+psi on a ct20 doesn't mean it's effecient - you simply reach a point where you are truly just blowing hot air & it won't make anymore hp.

for the dyno testing are you all going to run on pump or higher octane 'race' gas?

This post has been edited by darthripley: Dec 1, 2008 - 3:28 PM

[Culpable04]

this is just like when we go to McDs and have a Coke, they now have those thick straws, try to drink the same Coke with a Sunny Ds pouch straw and you'll see why this mod will yield power gains.

[pipes]

this is just like when we go to McDs and have a Coke, they now have those thick straws, try to drink the same Coke with a Sunny Ds pouch straw and you'll see why this mod will yield power gains.

ok using that same logic if you took a fire hose and drank that same coke you wouldnt be getting that same amount down your throat

[99GT]

this is just like when we go to McDs and have a Coke, they now have those thick straws, try to drink the same Coke with a Sunny Ds pouch straw and you'll see why this mod will yield power gains.

ok using that same logic if you took a fire hose and drank that same coke you wouldnt be getting that same amount down your throat

You have to do R&D to get in between these two.

Props to Manny.

This post has been edited by 99GT: Dec 1, 2008 - 4:29 PM

[presure2]

this is just like when we go to McDs and have a Coke, they now have those thick straws, try to drink the same Coke with a Sunny Ds pouch straw and you'll see why this mod will yield power gains.

ok using that same logic if you took a fire hose and drank that same coke you wouldnt be getting that same amount down your throat

your throat dont spin at 130,000 rpm.

[lagos]

this is just like when we go to McDs and have a Coke, they now have those thick straws, try to drink the same Coke with a Sunny Ds pouch straw and you'll see why this mod will yield power gains.

The problem is that there is a sunnyD straw after the fire hose.
The turbo inlet, outlet, intercooler end tanks and throttle body all cause a restriction to the air thats going to end up in the cylinders.
In theory, you should only need an intake thats as big as the largest part of your setup. On a stock 3s, that would be the turbo's inlet at 2.75inches.

[Culpable04]

^ that's correct, but just like when people put a cat-back instead of a full turbo back exhaust every little bit helps.


at Pipes, every system has its own efficiency range, if your can handle the fire hose, then why not ? I can't tell since is out of my range.

[_Jim_]

Yes the 2.75 compressor opening is a "restriction." But it is not the only thing to take into consideration. Here's the deffintion of a vortex off WIKI

A vortex is a spinning, often turbulent, flow of fluid. Any spiral motion with closed streamlines is vortex flow. The motion of the fluid swirling rapidly around a center is called a vortex. The speed and rate of rotation of the fluid are greatest at the center, and decrease progressively with distance from the center.

So its not as simple as how much liquid you can or can not suck throw different size straws (but I a kick out of imagineing someone in a drinking race with a SUNNY D straw ). The compressor side is spinning at incredible rates, in excess of 100,000 rpms. Air will be in a vortex state when entering into the compressor housing. So the air will be flowing into the 2.75" opening at great speeds, as described in the definition. So, the 2.75" opening in the compressor housing will be able to take much more air then a 2.75" opening would be able to take if it wasn't under vortex conditions. So, based on the definition "The speed and rate of rotation of the fluid are greatest at the center, and decrease progressively with distance from the center" you would want a bigger intake pipe to to allow for more air to be in the intake pipe at all times to use the vortex condition to its fullest potential.

So I would think that a .25" increase (3" intake) isnt going to supply the extra air needed to reap the full benifits, but I think 1.25" increase (4" intake) would.

And before people jump down my throat, I DO NOT believe that you can go endless with this. Meaning at some point gains are going to taper off and eventually stop increasing as the size of the pipe increases. So, no....there are NOT super huge, massive, out of this world gains to be had with a 8" intake

[Cuts_the_Pilot]

Im sorry i dont see how there is going to be a power gain to be had going from 3" to 4" (if that is infact what you did)

going from stock to either 3" or 4" with a decent flowing filter from stock would give a small gain, and i mean small not even 10 kw (less then 15 hp)

since you are changing your filter going from 3" to 4" the only real way to test is to do a few pulls on the dyno, all without any filter at all.

get back to us with proof.

[lagos]

Jim, the theory that a vortex will create more power is the same theory behind those Tornado gizmos they sell.
The truth is, that your turbo is already creating a vortex when it spins and sucks in air from the intake. However, the output of that velocity is limited by the size of the turbos 2in outlet. So in essence, how ever free flowing the intake is, it will always be choked by that 2in outlet on the turbo. Its the same as having a huge jug of water. The jug might be very wide in diameter, but the water will only flow out as fast as its restricted opening will allow.

I think the reason why their car made more power on the dyno, is because for whatever reason (maybe the intake did play a role in this) the car was able to hit more boost on the dyno then most ct20bs can. I guess the best way to know for sure is to wait for your dyno results.

I'm looking forward to physics class next semester. Its fascinating how all of this stuff really functions.








This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 1, 2008 - 11:39 PM

[dlx742]

I'm looking forward to physics class next semester. Its fascinating how all of this stuff really functions.

and you will learn exactly why the 4" makes a difference... and you will really be scratching your head when almost everything can be explained by energy

[presure2]

since you are changing your filter going from 3" to 4" the only real way to test is to do a few pulls on the dyno, all without any filter at all.

get back to us with proof.

from my first post:

im hoping we can get back to back dynos at some point real soon with a 3" intake vs this one

we WILL be testing this setup, that was the whole idea of this thread. to discuss peoples opinions on the setup, improvments that could be made, ect.
right now, it looks like we will be testing this in a couple weeks on the weekend of the 13th.
jim is coming up for a b-day party for a friend, and i will be fabbing him up a new b-pipe on that weekend after the dyno. (his current one hits the crossmemeber, it had since he got the car IIRC)
providing we have time, i will perform the following tests:
stock airbox
3" intake
4" intake
no filter
each test will be performed at least twice, with cool down time between each setup.

that should provide us with enough data to actually get some solid results, and see where we stand with each setup.

[DEATH]

since you are changing your filter going from 3" to 4" the only real way to test each test will be performed at least twice, with cool down time between each setup.

I had wondered about that after we talked about how to keep the filter from effecting the results but I figured that would just make it cost prohibitive. You must be good friends with your dyno owner

This post has been edited by DEATH: Dec 2, 2008 - 11:25 AM

[presure2]

since you are changing your filter going from 3" to 4" the only real way to test each test will be performed at least twice, with cool down time between each setup.

I had wondered about that after we talked about how to keep the filter from effecting the results but I figured that would just make it cost prohibitive. You must be good friends with your dyno owner

not really, i mean im not gonna let it cool an hr between runs...5-10 min is more than enough.
his rates are just very reasonable compared to anyone else ive seen @ 60$ per hr with unlimited runs.

[1bwilson]

I wish dyno's around here were 60 a hour. Mines on the dyno now at 175 a hour

[DEATH]

Damn - but that's with tuning tho right?

[1bwilson]

Yes yes. Im hoping to get a call today about it being done. They have had it 3 weeks tomorrow. The dyno has been busted, it broke the car before mine 2 weeks ago.

[Terracar]

Curiousity has me intrigued - how does a dyno break a car? I mean I am sure there are ways, but none tht would necessarily guaarantee breakage.

-Terracar

[lagos]

Curiousity has me intrigued - how does a dyno break a car? I mean I am sure there are ways, but none tht would necessarily guaarantee breakage.

-Terracar

They dont. Its impossible.
If a car brakes on the dyno, there was something already wrong with the car that would have broken on the street.

[playr158]

^dynos can break cars. I've been at one when it seized and snapped axles. its a VERY VERY rare occurrence but it can happen

[dlx742]

so i was thinking about why the 4'' intake would add power and i came up with this
if you didnt factor in turbulance then its just simple continuity of hydrodynamics where the continuity of flow Q=velocity x area remains constant.
so, if area 1 is 4π (pi) and area 2 is aprox. 1.89π (area of a circle is πr^2) then the equation is 4π(v1)=1.89π(v2) or v2= 2.12(v1) meaning that by the time the air gets to the inlet of the turbo it is traveling twice the speed as when it entered the intake, and since a 4'' intake can collect a higher volume of air than a 3'', the turbo is getting more air at a higher velocity = more power

[_Jim_]

Jim, the theory that a vortex will create more power is the same theory behind those Tornado gizmos they sell.

This is different. The compressor housing is CREATING a vortex due to spinning at speeds above 100,000 rpms, where as those tornado gizmos just alter the air coming into the intake to "spiral" the incoming air at very slow rates. It just alters the air flow direction more than anything.

The truth is, that your turbo is already creating a vortex when it spins and sucks in air from the intake.

Agreed. But an opening under vortex conditions can flow much greater than the same opening not under vortex conditions.

However, the output of that velocity is limited by the size of the turbos 2in outlet. So in essence, how ever free flowing the intake is, it will always be choked by that 2in outlet on the turbo. Its the same as having a huge jug of water. The jug might be very wide in diameter, but the water will only flow out as fast as its restricted opening will allow.

Not true, because the 2" outlet of the turbo on the compressor side is under pressure. Take that jug (coke bottle) and time how long it takes to drain out when you turn it outside down. Now, take that same jug and time how long it takes to drain out when you turn it upside down and apply pressure (squeez) the bottle. The opening diameter of the bottle didnt change, nor did the amount of water inside the bottle. The only difference was the pressure added to the bottle which allowed it to drain faster.

I think the reason why their car made more power on the dyno, is because for whatever reason (maybe the intake did play a role in this) the car was able to hit more boost on the dyno then most ct20bs can. I guess the best way to know for sure is to wait for your dyno results.

I'm looking forward to physics class next semester. Its fascinating how all of this stuff really functions.

I agree that the higher boost DEFINITELY played a role in those numbers. But I also believe that the intake played a role in this. Yes, the best way to tell for sure would be wait for the dyno results in 2 weeks, but its nice to get opinions and ideas about why or why not a 4" intake may make power.

[_Jim_]

so i was thinking about why the 4'' intake would add power and i came up with this
if you didnt factor in turbulance then its just simple continuity of hydrodynamics where the continuity of flow Q=velocity x area remains constant.
so, if area 1 is 4π (pi) and area 2 is aprox. 1.89π (area of a circle is πr^2) then the equation is 4π(v1)=1.89π(v2) or v2= 2.12(v1) meaning that by the time the air gets to the inlet of the turbo it is traveling twice the speed as when it entered the intake, and since a 4'' intake can collect a higher volume of air than a 3'', the turbo is getting more air at a higher velocity = more power

Well done.

[lagos]

Not true, because the 2" outlet of the turbo on the compressor side is under pressure. Take that jug (coke bottle) and time how long it takes to drain out when you turn it outside down. Now, take that same jug and time how long it takes to drain out when you turn it upside down and apply pressure (squeez) the bottle. The opening diameter of the bottle didnt change, nor did the amount of water inside the bottle. The only difference was the pressure added to the bottle which allowed it to drain faster.

Thats very true. You move more air under pressure then not. Thats how a turbo car can ingest more air then an NA car through the same sized pipe.
But the bigger intake will not add any more pressure to the system. All it is creating less restriction. So any gains would have to assume that a 3in intake is too restrictive.
Ultimately the car will make more power when more air is able to reach the cylinders. But you have to remember that a 3in intake is still bigger then your throttle body, and intercooler end tanks. All those things limit how much air can enter the engine. I think that you would have to upgrade ALL of those components to see a gain. Thats why you always see people with higher HP cars upgrade the throttle body, intercooler pipes and intake all at the same time.

4π(v1)=1.89π(v2) or v2= 2.12(v1)

I got... v2=2.11(v1)

This post has been edited by lagos: Dec 3, 2008 - 10:49 PM

[Etak28]

WOW that looks nice. i plan on doing something like that after i relocate my battery. my intake right now is just a 3" that goes pretty much off the turbo and i would say like an 75 degree bend down so it's flush with the bottom of the radiator fluid. looks like it was made for our cars and i just rigged it up out of a honda civics cold air intake i bought off of ebay. I just looked for one that had the nipple for the pcv and a bend nearby and bought it.

that looks real nice tho

[dlx742]

Not true, because the 2" outlet of the turbo on the compressor side is under pressure. Take that jug (coke bottle) and time how long it takes to drain out when you turn it outside down. Now, take that same jug and time how long it takes to drain out when you turn it upside down and apply pressure (squeez) the bottle. The opening diameter of the bottle didnt change, nor did the amount of water inside the bottle. The only difference was the pressure added to the bottle which allowed it to drain faster.

Thats very true. You move more air under pressure then not. Thats how a turbo car can ingest more air then an NA car through the same sized pipe.
But the bigger intake will not add any more pressure to the system. All it is creating less restriction. So any gains would have to assume that a 3in intake is too restrictive.
Ultimately the car will make more power when more air is able to reach the cylinders. But you have to remember that a 3in intake is still bigger then your throttle body, and intercooler end tanks. All those things limit how much air can enter the engine. I think that you would have to upgrade ALL of those components to see a gain. Thats why you always see people with higher HP cars upgrade the throttle body, intercooler pipes and intake all at the same time.

4π(v1)=1.89π(v2) or v2= 2.12(v1)

I got... v2=2.11(v1)

2.116 rounded up since we are at 2 sig figs is 2.12

[Etak28]

good ol' sig figs

[x_itchy_b_x]

meh, i cant see this influencing flow as much as it will help spool. its not going to change the trim of a turbo you know what i mean. sweet results and nice work Manny.

[Dr_Tweak]

I'm interested to see the results, I always wanted to play around with different sizes of piping and compare them all back to back. Are you going to do the tests with the hood closed (as it would be when driving)?

Hey manny, if I send you one of my intakes would you test that along with the others?





This post has been edited by Dr_Tweak: Dec 4, 2008 - 8:37 AM

[presure2]

I'm interested to see the results, I always wanted to play around with different sizes of piping and compare them all back to back. Are you going to do the tests with the hood closed (as it would be when driving)?

Hey manny, if I send you one of my intakes would you test that along with the others?

the place we dyno at is a pretty enclosed room, with not much airflow,so we normally dyno with the hood open, because there is only one very unfocused large fan blowing over the front of the car.
theres no way we can get highway speed airflow across the front of the car with the fan he has.
to be honest, i've never really thought anything of it before you mentioned it.

PM me about the intake, as long as we have the time, i would love to try it for ya.
the only issue i can see is that again, we wouldnt be getting the airflow your intake would normally take advantage of by being in the fender well, and with the open hood testing, i guess you could say we would have an advantage VS hood closed, where in theory the temps would be higher.

[Dr_Tweak]

PM me about the intake, as long as we have the time, i would love to try it for ya.
the only issue i can see is that again, we wouldnt be getting the airflow your intake would normally take advantage of by being in the fender well, and with the open hood testing, i guess you could say we would have an advantage VS hood closed, where in theory the temps would be higher.

Sort of why I was asking

I'm jigging that intake up this coming week, so I'll see if I can't put together an extra, I can always leave it on the shelf as stock. Or maybe you'll want it

-Doc

[presure2]

PM me about the intake, as long as we have the time, i would love to try it for ya.
the only issue i can see is that again, we wouldnt be getting the airflow your intake would normally take advantage of by being in the fender well, and with the open hood testing, i guess you could say we would have an advantage VS hood closed, where in theory the temps would be higher.

Sort of why I was asking

I'm jigging that intake up this coming week, so I'll see if I can't put together an extra, I can always leave it on the shelf as stock. Or maybe you'll want it

-Doc

nope, my car is daily driven, in all weather, so i'll take the short ram i have on my car, thanks.


jims car has no underplastics, and is also driven in all weather, so again, no cold air intakes there.

besides, i perfer less bends, and with where i place mine, im still getting the cold air from the fenderwell over the intake.

dont worry tweek im not trying to steal any of your buisness, i dont do this stuff for a livin.

[Dr_Tweak]

Uh, yeah we daily-drive our cars in all weather too, and believe me, we get a LOT of flooding in Savannah. A properly built cold air intake isn't going to give you any problems, since you have to FULLY submerge a filter before it will draw water into the intake. To submerge the intake pictured above, you would have to drive through water so deep that it would almost be coming over the TOPS of your wheels, and then you STILL would have to submerge the air bypass valve which is on there for extra safety. Under-body panels make no difference either way, it's certainly not going to keep water out if you drive into a river, and a little bit of water splashing onto the surface of the filter isn't going to go into your engine.

-Doc

[presure2]

Uh, yeah we daily-drive our cars in all weather too, and believe me, we get a LOT of flooding in Savannah. A properly built cold air intake isn't going to give you any problems, since you have to FULLY submerge a filter before it will draw water into the intake. To submerge the intake pictured above, you would have to drive through water so deep that it would almost be coming over the TOPS of your wheels, and then you STILL would have to submerge the air bypass valve which is on there for extra safety. Under-body panels make no difference either way, it's certainly not going to keep water out if you drive into a river, and a little bit of water splashing onto the surface of the filter isn't going to go into your engine.

-Doc

to me, the "air bypass valve" is part of the problem..
wouldnt the air flow thru that AND the filter while driving, or anytime for that matter?
and where that valve is, is kinda close to the flow going thru the radiator, especially once the fans kick on.
like i said, if you'd like, send one up by the 13th, ill test it along with the others as long as we have time, and i will return it to you.

besides, this is not a debate about SRI 'VS CAI.
for now, lets stay on topic, and talk about jims intake instead of yours.

[Dr_Tweak]

To answer the question that you asked, the air bypass valve only opens when the intake is under vacuum, which only happens if and when the entire cone filter is submerged in water.

But yeah, I was just giving my .02 as the topic said, so I'm outta here If I can get one put together in time I'll send it up

-Doc

[presure2]

To answer the question that you asked,the air bypass valve only opens when the intake is under vacuum, which only happens if and when the entire cone filter is submerged in water.

But yeah, I was just giving my .02 as the topic said, so I'm outta here If I can get one put together in time I'll send it up

-Doc

ahh i did not know that.
however, isnt the intake pre turbo always under vac?
thinking that, i went over to google, and first paragraph on AEM's faq about those valves is this:
Q: Can I use an Air Bypass Valve on a forced induction engine?A: Do NOT use an Air Bypass Valve on engines equipped with forced induction (turbo or superchargers). The increased flow demands created by the forced induction could damage the valve and lead to engine damage. i would think the vac created by the compressor would keep that valve open at all times.
and from that, i would think AEM is covering themselfs from tearing or ripping, and injesting that into the turbo and engine.

[Dr_Tweak]

To answer the question that you asked,the air bypass valve only opens when the intake is under vacuum, which only happens if and when the entire cone filter is submerged in water.

But yeah, I was just giving my .02 as the topic said, so I'm outta here If I can get one put together in time I'll send it up

-Doc

ahh i did not know that.
however, isnt the intake pre turbo always under vac?
thinking that, i went over to google, and first paragraph on AEM's faq about those valves is this:
Q: Can I use an Air Bypass Valve on a forced induction engine?A: Do NOT use an Air Bypass Valve on engines equipped with forced induction (turbo or superchargers). The increased flow demands created by the forced induction could damage the valve and lead to engine damage. i would think the vac created by the compressor would keep that valve open at all times.
and from that, i would think AEM is covering themselfs from tearing or ripping, and injesting that into the turbo and engine.

Wow, never saw that before. I was already considering dropping the bypass valve altogether since the filter is mounted so high already, I think you just helped me make up my mind!

[playr158]

yes behind that foam is a nice little system which under increased vacuum opens to let air through.

BUT as you have just posted they are not recommended on FI cars.
why?

because you have to look they are designed for normal NA cars. The NA motor can only generate so much vacuum before a) shutting down or b) sucking up the water.
so the valve has to have an opening vacuum level somewhere in between.

the FI motor generates significantly more vacuum levels inside the intake than an NA car. This constant increased level could damage the valve and possibly break it sending pieces into your turbo causing damage.




ps: also there is very little point to running a "cold air intake" since it immediately gets rapidly heated by the turbo. You have an intercooler to insure cold air temps
the difference in air temp the intake placement would see would make negligible effects on the power output of the motor.

This post has been edited by playr158: Dec 5, 2008 - 10:34 AM

[presure2]

ps: also there is very little point to running a "cold air intake" since it immediately gets rapidly heated by the turbo. You have an intercooler to insure cold air temps
the difference in air temp the intake placement would see would make negligible effects on the power output of the motor.

yea, i kinda figured the same, guess we'll just have to see what happens if tweek sends one up.

[99GT]

Any results?

[Batman722]

unfortunatly the dyno was cancelled that day.

[CelicaGT04]

unfortunatly the dyno was cancelled that day.

BAH HUMBUG! get this baby dynoed

[_Jim_]

We are trying, but of course the shop was "changing hands" that weekend I was up there so it fell through. In due time. If there were reasonable dynos around here I would post up because I still have the 3" intake from the GEN2 (which is almost identical to my 4" intake, except for being a 3" intake), but I cant find a dyno for less than 150.

[presure2]

guys lets stay on topic, i split the disscussion about the helper spring.

yea, the dyno guy just happen to be selling the dyno on the weekend we had planned to get this done, but dont worry, im sure jim will be up here soon after the new year to get these tests done.

dont worry guys, this WILL get done, and soon.

[boosted95]

not to bust anyones balls, but is it dyno time yet?

[presure2]

not to bust anyones balls, but is it dyno time yet?

we are trying to set up a date.

jim mentioned coming up next weekend, i need to confirm that with him, then make the dyno appt.

again, this WILL get done, but with it being winter and all, it makes it hard to set a solid date.

[_Jim_]

Dam Manny, you beat me before I could reply. Shannon wasn't able to take off that Saturday for work, so we will have to do it the weekend of the 31st. Shannon will look in that date on Monday, and I will call you Monday night to confirm.

As Manny said, with it being Winter, it isnt as easy to get away.....for me at least. I plow during the Winter and if there is a chance of snow for that weekend, I will have to cancel. But as Manny said.......THIS WILL GET DONE.

[presure2]

Dam Manny, you beat me before I could reply. Shannon wasn't able to take off that Saturday for work, so we will have to do it the weekend of the 31st. Shannon will look in that date on Monday, and I will call you Monday night to confirm.

As Manny said, with it being Winter, it isnt as easy to get away.....for me at least. I plow during the Winter and if there is a chance of snow for that weekend, I will have to cancel. But as Manny said.......THIS WILL GET DONE.

awesome jim, that also will give D time to work things out on his end as well, so we can set it so that both of you can get on.

once we get everything confirmed, i will head over to the dyno and get it booked in.