The automotive bailout Options

[playr158]

This post has been edited by playr158: Dec 9, 2008 - 2:21 PM

[Supersprynt]

The only reason the bailout will happen is to save people's jobs.

I'm hoping this will start a revolution in the American auto industry. They need to take a look at their model and totally revamp it. It's obviously flawed. Making multiple versions of the same car (Cavalier/Sunfire, Plymouth Neon/Dodge Neon WTF?!) is starting to get ridiculous.

They're also selling off their other brands... back to basics.

This post has been edited by Supersprynt: Dec 9, 2008 - 2:17 PM

[RUNNIN-LOW]

your right they are going to bail these guys out just cause, man your going to see like hundred of thousand of people laid off and have nothing better to do but drink.....

[RickJamesBish]

That's a decent point Super, but they've killed off multiple models already...it is a good way for them to make money without making any new models though.

[97lestyousay]

I am against it, I am sorry for the workers but if my boss pads his pocket
and makes dumb decisions, the company goes under. Thats life, make a profit
or fail.

[Supersprynt]

They need to hire some Japanese consultants.

[richee3]

I think the bailout is ridiculous. Granted, I don't want anyone losing their jobs, because I know I would never want anything to cost me my job and if I was on the verge of getting laid off and the government offered to step in and save my job, I wouldn't be complaining. But it's exactly as lestyousay said, it's make a profit or fail. GM, Chrysler, and Ford have all failed. I really do wish they'd make a better product, but they haven't. Obviously they have the potential to make a great car, and they used to do it. With different people in control of those companies, I believe they could make a strong comeback. They have the capability to make a reliable motor, they just don't want to do it.

Griffgirl put it perfectly. I only got $34 in financial aid for school this year when one year of college costs more than what my family made. The government can't give me any money to go to school, but they can cough up an exorbitant amount to bail these companies out because some morons can't figure out the right way to make money.

[njccmd2002]

they need to invent better cars, it will take eons...

[GriffGirl]

I am against it, I am sorry for the workers but if my boss pads his pocket
and makes dumb decisions, the company goes under. Thats life, make a profit
or fail.

I'm totally against it too - it's a no win situation I think. Without the bailout hundreds and thousands of people would lose their jobs. That's bad times for the economy as a whole, not to mention how it affects those people personally.

I'm not anti-union. Well, actually, I sort of am. I understand the benefits of having a union to ensure a safe and fair work environment. But some of the people working for the US automakers are making BANK as janitors, for example. What is BANK, you might ask? How about $52,000 a year plus benefits. That's the starting salary of a UAW janitor. http://www.uaw.org/contracts/03/gm/gm02.cfm

I'm all for people making an honest living, and maybe I'm a socialist this way but I don't personally value one person over another by skill set. But this is ridiculous. $52k a year to mop the damn floor? This isn't a skilled trade! It's Labor Union BS, and it's costing people who have nothing to do with Detroit their jobs. Because US automakers are spending BILLIONS of dollars on wages and salaries that really don't warrant such a high salary, they can't make a damn car that's worth owning (a broad generalization). Money that could otherwise be spent on R&D, or just fcuking QUALITY CONTROL. Money that should've been spent LONG AGO on whatever is in their current "plan" on how to spend OUR TAX MONEY.

I think the CEOs, if they're really committed to saving their businesses, should stop accepting salaries at all. Work the numbers and figure out how many of those asshats it takes to equal 25 billion dollars over say 5 years, and stop drawing a salary. And stop showing up in private jets to beg for money from congress. Fcuktards.

[bseaman_5]

Richee that is an excelent point.. It's sad to see where our government is and what their priorities are..

[96bluevert]

If the domestic auto market can't start producing some good cars, this whole bailout will be for nothing. It would be nice to see these companies come back and better than they are doing now, but I don't know that'll happen.

[richee3]

Now that my little rant is over, that picture WAS pretty funny

[GriffGirl]

Now that my little rant is over, that picture WAS pretty funny

x2!

[x_itchy_b_x]

we need to break the Unions, just my stance.

[richee3]

we need to break the Unions, just my stance.

You and Griffgirl got that right!

[jesterwr217]

I am against it, I am sorry for the workers but if my boss pads his pocket
and makes dumb decisions, the company goes under. Thats life, make a profit
or fail.

x2
IF YOU WANT TO BOOST THE ECONOMY TAKE ALL THAT BAILOUT MONEY AND DISTRIBUTE IT EQUALLY TO EVERYONE IN AMERICA AND LET THE CITIZENS PAY OFF THOSE LOANS THEY GOT THAT THEY CANT AFFORD AND STIMULATE THE ECONOMY.
IF YOU TAKE THE 800 BILLION (WHAT I KNOW THEYVE SPENT SO FAR) AND DIVIDE THE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE IN THE US (ROUGHLY 302 MILLION) (INCLUDING PEOPLE UNDER THE AGE OF 18 INCLUDING INAFANTS) THAT MEANS EVERYONE GETS ROUGHLY 2800
SO IF YOU ARE MARRIED WITH TWO KIDS YOUR HOUSEHOLD WOULD GET 11,200
I THINK THAT WOULD HELP OUT ALOT

This post has been edited by jesterwr217: Dec 9, 2008 - 9:21 PM

[richee3]

^^^ But of course, in the government's eyes, that will never work. They'd much rather spend that money bailing out the Big Three, which won't really do anything at all unless the companies undergo a complete overhaul. And they won't. They'll just take the money and keep building the same products.

Personally, I think I could use $2,800 and not drive a Pontiac Solstice (which I know to be slower than my Celica.)

[playr158]

well if you work for the big 3...you are dumb if you aren't looking for another job.

If you need a union to keep you employed, then you need to learn and develop the skills required to keep yourself employed.

go ahead and give the big three money...they will still fail and the people will still lose their jobs it will just be delayed by a short period of time.

involving government in private business is also completely against what this country was built on but oh well.


don't worry we are America we can sooo go against the grain in the overall way that economics works and prove that what you learn in school is BS. *sarcasm*

i'm sorry to see people lose there jobs, but that is how businesses work. If they are failing let them fail, its the only way to make things functional faster,

[TRD_Ian]

she is all going to hell, i live in canada and our economy is gonna **** the bed just the same........iv started stocking up on liqur and ammo, my plan is when she hits the fan is to move home to the country cause my family can pretty much live off the land, sadly i dont see us coming out of this, the gov fcuked up and now "we" have to suffer, let the companies fall or down size till they are almost no more....no sence in a bail out when the economy is sh*ting the bed and ppl can't afford to buy cars any way's, waste of alot of money to just put it off on tha back burner, they bail them out then down the line sales are still down because every thing else still cost's an arm and a leg ppl still wont be buying there junk so whats the sence, give it back to the ppl because they need it more, no offence to any one but there is no reason why some one should be making 52 g a year for pushing a broom, reward ppl who go to school and take trades with money like that, just my 2 cents

[CAMAricer]

Does anyone else realize where all this "bailout money" is coming from? A trillion dollars doesn't just come out of thin air! Needless to say, we are all going to be screwed up the a-hole when we retire.

[playr158]

Does anyone else realize where all this "bailout money" is coming from? A trillion dollars doesn't just come out of thin air! Needless to say, we are all going to be screwed up the a-hole when we retire.

its tax money....but don't worry, the taxes payers are the first inline for pay back...or so they say

[GriffGirl]

No no even better— we'll simply print more!

Have I called the gov't fcuktards yet today? Let's go with asshats for good measure.

[Spider77]

You know its funny, we were talking about this same thing happening a while back during an airspeed class (if anyone here knows what that is they also know how much fun it is). There are these principles that all the Japanese auto guys have been going by for a long time. TOC, Six Sigma, 5S, etc....and now the American auto companies are struggling to change to this "new" formula. Doing more with less really hasnt been a hallmark of American automakers and it shows. The only guys I feel bad for are those who are going to loose their jobs because the guys at the top failed to see a problem when they should have. But on the other hand, if you cant play dont come to the game.

[Akirad1]

i dunno but who ever has 401k check how much you have i had lost like 200 dollars in the past months in mine

[Spider77]

Yeah, I know alot of guys who have something real similar (TSP) and they have noticed a dip, just keep it where its at, it will eventually rebound and get better....I promise. This wouldnt be the first or the last recession that we've had.

[97celiman]

ahhhhh the right wing-ness is killing me...

so let me lay this little scenario on you,

so the guy makes 52k a year for pushing a broom, great, do i think thats right? not necessarily, however i do think he should get paid something maybe not 52 grand but certainly not much less than that, everyone has to have a job, whether it be broom pushing or designing the new gas guzzler for ford, which while it is not a good thing, does require a college degree. so lets rag on the broom pushing guy or the guy who checks groceries or stocks the shelves who works for some mondo corp. and rather than work w/out union security he chose to contribute some of his pay to them, so that he is guaranteed raises at a certain point, rather than going to his "boss" and saying "hey! i make 50 spare tires for the ford escape each day and jim-bob only makes 35, i think i deserve a raise! plus ive been here for 10 years and hes only been here one, but i make the same amount so i want a raise!" do you realize how much this would slow the company down if they had every factory worker come up to there boss and ask for certain things such as raises, healthcare, retirement and these several other benefits? the union member and union are actually saving the company money b/c they are able to produce more b/c ppl arent up and leaving there posts on the line. we say 52k thousand is alot for pushing a broom and it is, dont get me wrong, i think they should make maybe just over the poverty line maybe say 40-45 based on yrs of service plus benefits, however suppose he has a wife and 2.4 kids to feed just like the company exec?

furthermore the unions in different situations such as the airline industry protect pilots and other airline employees from taking MASSIVE paycuts after times like 9/11 (trust me they took several big ones that on avg halved the average first officers pay) however it is still a liveable wage....since the transportation industry is not allowed to go on strike like many other industries bc of woodrow wilson transportation act (our infrastructure would die) it provides a system of checks and balances with the company, the stuff like moving the retirement age up to 65 for pilots is crap i dont want some guy with a walker flying my plane and furthermore the guys that have been there for 30 years at age 60 will just then be promoted to capt. for the 5 last yrs which is crap.

im not saying every janitor should get to make 52k a year but lets not be mad at the janitor, everyone has to and needs a job especially with mouths to feed and when you look at inflation and factor in the cost of living, thats barely enough (if it all) and maybe his wife cant work for some reason or maybe she can and she gets a bank job and makes 40k well combined thats just under 100k and after taxes some less, so i suppose its enough to live comfortably.

i think with unions there needs to be give and take and in this instance the uaw will have to give, it is not there fault that the big 3 make ****ty cars and if anything we should be mad at them for not meeting the demands of the ppl. The unions simply provide a voice for workers who are just a number and want to survive in this world, sadly not every person is fortunate enough to have access to college etc, i know there are a sh*tload of ways to get there but somebody has to do the dirty work otherwise we'd be paying a college grad to push a broom and then where would we be?

we talk of this bailout money as a bad thing and im not saying it is a good thing however i think we would take a bigger hit with thousands of ppl out of jobs (detroit already has enough crime lol) i guarantee if you were in the same situation you would want the protection of the union and no paycut. im sure there are some janitors out there to that are willing to take a paycut if that means keeping there jobs

if you look at line graphs of union membership vs. the overall economic prosperity of the country i guarentee you it is higher when union memberships are higher, they do save time because they take a mass people and offer some sort of stability for them and the country.
part of the problem also lies the classic republican tax cut mantra- they offer tax cuts for the company so that not only do they hypothetically invest in the business (hence creating new jobs (that would be great if it actually worked)) but also they lead you in with a wink and a nod saying "hey shouldnt these guys get the cuts b/c trust me when you've started your own business and you get big and rich you'll want these same tax cuts...trust us" (and then the little elbow nudge) this is all great and it is the american dream to start your business and be successful however i got news for you 3/4 of small business fail within the first year and 9/10 ppl dont make it to the "big time" at all so where does that leave them when they need a job (maybe pushing a broom because all they have is a hs diploma bc they immediately started there business right after high school?)

in the end dont blame the union member for the faults of the company executives that budget the companies money

and just remember, its going to get worse before it gets better

this is just my .02 no offense to anyone

and if you read all of it-props to you

side note: did anyone see jon stewart rip huckabee a new one, awesome...no offense again but it was HARSH

[njccmd2002]

long post... could not read...

we are trying to get blood out of a turnip. They need new designs, new company perspectives and better quality.

Me personally would never buy from these companies.

I worked in toyota my first few months in us, i have seen so many histories when they trade their cars its ridiculous.

[Spider77]

Wow, thats alot of text. Yeah I agree, blame the guys who call the shots. I mean if I wanted to "borrow" 15 billion dollars Id slap on my suit, fly my big ol jet and whine about how I have no money. In fact anyone here paying a mortgage? Why dont we get together, buy a mansion, slap wheels on it and drive to DC and ask for money? Everyone is right in this matter...sort of. Yeah 52k a year for brrom pushing is a bit excessive, screwing the "little" guy isnt fair, asking for money when you really pissed what you had away is selfish. But I think the main point here is that no one bothered to try to fix this before it happened (or when it started), and now that it has, well maybe now things might get better....maybe.

[garin]

The bailout is a stupid idea. The tax payers money should not go to these corporate giants. With the last bailout the the banks received there was no one watching where the money went. i think that these bailouts end up hurting the American economy. I feel for the middle class people who are in danger of losing their jobs, but in the end this bailout will only feed the rich. This bailout is a step towards socialism. I don't care who the president is, or would be, there are serious issues facing this nation and being president is no easy job. Barack Obama will face many challenges. I believe in the end he will have the same approval ratings as Bush. I also believe that President Bush faced a tough time to be the president. We need to respect the leader of our nation even if we do not agree with his policies.

[jesterwr217]

first of all the senario is unrealistic
no line worker is going to walk off the line to ask for a raise and expect to keep his job
52k a year for a janitor is rediculous no matter the cercumstance
unions cluter up production because it keeps companys from being flexable enough to survive
think about the money theyve cost the company the gov. is now trying to bail out because of their strikes just cause they felt like they wanted a raise
40-45k a year is just over the poverty line???? you must have a **** load of money!
learn how to live on 12 dollars an hr
if you work for a company and the company has to make an overhaul to survive and they need to make paycuts or downsize its up to you if you want to stay with the company or find a new job
and i owned my own business and sold it just this past feburary
if your smart with your business and dont waste your money on frivolous things your business will be prospurous
i owned a citgo station and i now work for 7-11 as a store operator making 45k a year
i never went to college and 7-11 doesnt sound much like an appealing place but it is actually a great place to work with excelent benifits
just becuase you dont go to college doesnt mean you cant do something with your life

my final opinions
unions should be disbanded
executives should take major cuts in salary
(including the head janitor makn 52k a year)
the republican tax ideal is great it just needs to be monitored and make sure its being applied correctly
the bailout is a bad idea and the money should be given to the people in trouble to pump back into the economy

[samir0189]

the bailout is a bad idea and the money should be given to the people in trouble to pump back into the economy

Ive been thinking that myself for the longest time. Although its unrealistic and highly unlikely that the government would ever do such a thing, if they gave the money they spent bailing out the banks and now the auto industry to the PEOPLE of America versus the CEOs people would in turn use that money to pay off mortgages and perhaps buy new cars, etc. Like a reverse trickle down, if the people who have problems pay off their debts then the banks and economy would be able to steady itself.

[jesterwr217]

the bailout is a bad idea and the money should be given to the people in trouble to pump back into the economy

Ive been thinking that myself for the longest time. Although its unrealistic and highly unlikely that the government would ever do such a thing, if they gave the money they spent bailing out the banks and now the auto industry to the PEOPLE of America versus the CEOs people would in turn use that money to pay off mortgages and perhaps buy new cars, etc. Like a reverse trickle down, if the people who have problems pay off their debts then the banks and economy would be able to steady itself.

exactly

[goferris]

I agree and disagree with that statement.
I'm all for it because in the long run smart people will be using it to pay off loans and get out of debt or even put it away for a rainy day. You could tax it at 35% so the initial cost would be less therefore less debt for the country.
I'm against it because it is a very communistic thing to do IMO. Everyone's equal bull****.

I say let the companies die. Harsh? Yes. I worked for a company that went out of business. It sucked. I'm alive though. Companies have layoffs all the time so why should some get special treatment?
I'm still pissed about the wall street bailout. AIG spent how much on their little vacation? BS!!

I lived in the Detroit area for a few years and I met a lot of the people that work there. I will be sad if they lose their jobs but in all honesty, but why should they get special treatment? They all have severance packages anyways. They'll be ok if they are smart. Half the workers at the big 3 are living in the Ghetto as it is because they waste their money on booze and pointless junk.

[TRD_Ian]

ok so i have a few things, like before 40 to 45 just above the pov line? fcuk were do you live im moving there lol, im a skilled tradesman and i make about 20 t0 25 g a year if im lucky............iv worked union and non union shops, i like the union ones alot more better money better every thing. but it doesnt make stuff go faster. if any thing it makes it slower and ur making more money, if its non union u have ppl competeing for the job and the work there balls off....i seen it...iv done it

2
bailing these guys out is not gonna do a damn thing i think...hows it gonna make them sell more cars.......and isnt the assembly line like 85 percent robotic any ways? i dont mean to disrespect or any thing but reall how many jobs are on the line here?......... they should suck it up and just down size as much as they can.....apose to bailing them out, we bail them out and down the road it doesnt change any thing and all the ppl and the 85 percent robots dont have jobs, like i said i dont mean to offend but i think it is stupid....ur gov should save ur money

[97celiman]

Wow, thats alot of text. Yeah I agree, blame the guys who call the shots. I mean if I wanted to "borrow" 15 billion dollars Id slap on my suit, fly my big ol jet and whine about how I have no money. In fact anyone here paying a mortgage? Why dont we get together, buy a mansion, slap wheels on it and drive to DC and ask for money? Everyone is right in this matter...sort of. Yeah 52k a year for brrom pushing is a bit excessive, screwing the "little" guy isnt fair, asking for money when you really pissed what you had away is selfish. But I think the main point here is that no one bothered to try to fix this before it happened (or when it started), and now that it has, well maybe now things might get better....maybe.

i like this ^^^ mainly the last line however i think i should clarify
i was refering to the poverty line with 8 kids living in alaska clicky lol

anyway- i should say to live somewhat comfortable-jester i agree with you if you are working those hrs (7am to 11pm?)and making less than the janitor who prob only works 40 hours a week you should be making more- especially in a management position- but instead of being mad at as spider put it "the little guy" or the union for that matter (b/c they are only there to help the proverbial "little guy" i think we should be more upset at the ceo's and higher ups of the big 3's again unions arent out to kill babies or steal christmas (or hanukkah or kwanzaa or the winter solstice) just give a voice to the guy who works as a number for such a mondo corp.

and really although this is not 100% related- unions also help with immigration b/c rather than have x number of illegal immigrants cutting up my beef in somewheresville texas, i have a unionized butcher man getting paid more and not "robbing the system" bc we are paying undocumented workers- and i totally agree the republican tax ideal is great---its just never applied correctly

and props for reading my internet preaching-thanks : )

doesnt the homemade smiley make you feel like i care more ; )

dam there it is again-must be the holidays

o and side note our favorite brand TOYOTA is only laying off 700 part timers and retraining full time staff for plant shutdowns (different jobs) and keeping 40 hr wk and benefits
yay them!!!!

We need to respect the leader of our nation even if we do not agree with his policies.

cough jester cough cough

; )

[Culpable04]

i dunno but who ever has 401k check how much you have i had lost like 200 dollars in the past months in mine

you're still in good standing


I'm not gonna give actual number of my 401K, but I'm gonna let you know that I have lost a little over 55%, and that's including my low risk investments which are what's keeping my account positive.

some of the stock have fallen from US$36.90 to US$11.30 in a matter of a year. I have lost both of my last jobs due to companies relocation, so the local job market in NJ is telling me that I got into the wrong field. I still manage to have some decent job offers which I'm considering at the moment, trying to decided which one is gonna move to another state or close a facility faster than the other.

This bailouts are a joke, even if you don't lose your job now you'll lose it and will never be directly benefit from those billions of dollars, unless you're a CEO or related.


I agree with others when they say a company takes the wrong decisions, then it has to deal with the results, it's so easy to play with your money with no regards of the outcome when you can just put your hands in the basket and take money from the people and start right back again.

[jesterwr217]

Wow, thats alot of text. Yeah I agree, blame the guys who call the shots. I mean if I wanted to "borrow" 15 billion dollars Id slap on my suit, fly my big ol jet and whine about how I have no money. In fact anyone here paying a mortgage? Why dont we get together, buy a mansion, slap wheels on it and drive to DC and ask for money? Everyone is right in this matter...sort of. Yeah 52k a year for brrom pushing is a bit excessive, screwing the "little" guy isnt fair, asking for money when you really pissed what you had away is selfish. But I think the main point here is that no one bothered to try to fix this before it happened (or when it started), and now that it has, well maybe now things might get better....maybe.

i like this ^^^ mainly the last line however i think i should clarify
i was refering to the poverty line with 8 kids living in alaska clicky lol

anyway- i should say to live somewhat comfortable-jester i agree with you if you are working those hrs (7am to 11pm?)and making less than the janitor who prob only works 40 hours a week you should be making more- especially in a management position- but instead of being mad at as spider put it "the little guy" or the union for that matter (b/c they are only there to help the proverbial "little guy" i think we should be more upset at the ceo's and higher ups of the big 3's again unions arent out to kill babies or steal christmas (or hanukkah or kwanzaa or the winter solstice) just give a voice to the guy who works as a number for such a mondo corp.

and really although this is not 100% related- unions also help with immigration b/c rather than have x number of illegal immigrants cutting up my beef in somewheresville texas, i have a unionized butcher man getting paid more and not "robbing the system" bc we are paying undocumented workers- and i totally agree the republican tax ideal is great---its just never applied correctly

and props for reading my internet preaching-thanks : )

doesnt the homemade smiley make you feel like i care more ; )

dam there it is again-must be the holidays

o and side note our favorite brand TOYOTA is only laying off 700 part timers and retraining full time staff for plant shutdowns (different jobs) and keeping 40 hr wk and benefits
yay them!!!!

We need to respect the leader of our nation even if we do not agree with his policies.

cough jester cough cough

; )

its not the norm to live in alaska with 8 kids so you cant call that the poverty line haha
and no i work 530am till roughly 4pm and 7-11 is the company http://www.7-eleven.com/
and im not blaming just the little guy im blaming the rediculously paid "little guy" and his ceo for bleeding thier company dry to the point where it cant sustain itself in a tough time
unions dont do anything for immigration really it just pushes illegal workers into a different area
and thats the thing the rebulican tax ideal should be applied but like i said there should be like an oversight commity to make sure its being used correctly
as far as the toyota situation goes good for toyota theyre taking the right approach to the situation unfortunatelly people are loosing jobs but the company has to stay afloat and props for not robbing tax payer money doing it
as for the respect for our leader line ... well lets keep this on topic but i will say he has a lot of immoral belifes compared to my views and no experience whatsoever so no i dont like him at all but like i said lets keep the thread on topic
o look a self made smilie :-) hahahaha

[playr158]

at the poverty line talk and income comparison.

[Taskbot]

I think your country should take the bailout money and offer it as a severance package for the employees.

If the company gets the bailout money, it just means that the in equal distribution of pay will still continue. Where the janitor is making 52k a year, the CEOs and the Board are making probably 10x that. I mean, they stand absolutely nothing to lose, and right now it seems like the poor are bailing out the rich.

Also, in Ford's case. Have you seen the new European Focus compared to the American one, you know the one that's tearing up gravel in WRC? Sell that here. I'm sure they would sell fairly well, I mean the Mazda Axela (Mazda 3) sells well here and its on the same ****ing platform.. Hell its even got a reputation (albiet a small one) as a tuner vehicle. I don't think they could really fix that whole situation, but that was a stupid mistake in my mind to make a separate North American and European model.

Lastly, don't diss unions. If it weren't for them we would still be living in a Dickensian Nightmare, making 5 cents an hour. Sure, the American Auto Unions suck, but there are still places that need to be Unionised. Well auto unions suck when you compare it to the Japanese model of work. If you put people in tight highly specialized work-groups, give them a little bit of agency and have them cross trained (so if they don't feel like doing the same job they did for the past 5 weeks, they can switch up), plus throw in comparable benefits and pay you've got the Japanese model of work. You need fewer workers, however the workers are much happier and best of all, aren't unionised. They may be paid a little less, however they do not have union dues so it almost works out to be the same in the end.

[Supersprynt]

The bailout was approved - Sweden did the same with Saab & Volvo.

If it helps keep Americans employed, as much as I don't like businesses being bailed out, I'm ok.

[playr158]

they call it a bailout but its not. thats my problem with it.

they will just fail later on....call it the BIG 3 Band-aid....

call a spade a spade

[Taskbot]

The bailout was approved - Sweden did the same with Saab & Volvo.

Hahahahaha you mean they did the same with GM and Ford.
That's rich.

[Supersprynt]

Well - I'm not sure if they mean Saab & Volvo as a whole, or their car manufacturing. Yes Ford owns Volvo car division, but doesn't own the Volvo company. Same with GM. GM owns Saab car division, but Saab is an aerospace provider, which GM doesn't own.

[stephen_lee]

i just don't understand how such large companies with so many sales are failing...
i want to look at their bank accts haha

[playr158]

i just don't understand how such large companies with so many sales are failing...
i want to look at their bank accts haha

their balance sheet and other financial statements are available to the public

[Taskbot]

Well - I'm not sure if they mean Saab & Volvo as a whole, or their car manufacturing. Yes Ford owns Volvo car division, but doesn't own the Volvo company. Same with GM. GM owns Saab car division, but Saab is an aerospace provider, which GM doesn't own.

We're talking about the car firms though. I also found an article that verifies its the car firms.
"Volvo and Saab had been asking for Swedish state support because of the financial woes of their US owners."

But yeah... Saab aerospace.... Do they even make money?
Volvo Trucks probably is still profitable.

[Supersprynt]

Makes sense - those companies will be sold off anyways. I think both are already on the market.

[D-Man]

We'll be seeing Saab and Volvo on the "FEATURED" section of E-Bay in the coming weeks

[97celiman]

[/quote]
whatsoever so no i dont like him at all but like i said lets keep the thread on topic
o look a self made smilie :-) hahahaha
[/quote]

o i know im just giving you a hard time...trying to keep it light, we could pull the first ammendment crap but i dont think either of care enough...
i dont like the part about blaming the little guy i think just the big man- if i were the little guy i would be much happier just taking the paycut than losing my job- or maybe hed rather push a broom for toyota
i dunno man i think healthy debate is good but as we learn- trying to change an attitude or behavior is one of the hardest things to change especially over this type of ideal as long as you go away mad at the big guy and not mad at the little guy who is a union member im happy : )
yay for homemade smileys

[CAMAricer]

Need...more...capitalization...and better punctuations...too hard...to read...eyes are cringing....AHHHH!!! No offense, but it looks like incoherent, ramblings of a madman.

and if you read all of it-props to you

I disagree about not placing blame on the Janitor who makes 52K. It's like not placing blame on a spoiled bratty child. Sure, the parents are at fault...but does that let the kid off the hook too?

And don't even get me started about "unions". Has anyone stopped to think how much communism and unions have in common?

[tonytutino]

oh well.
the bill died tonight.

[stephen_lee]

so... no bail out?

[creis]

yup the bail-out appears to be officualy dead due to a "procedural vote" by the senate (my understanding of it being a senete pre-vote or something) (with exception to weither the W.H. will pull from the TARP's 700b bailout to give em.) I personly think that the govermant should not be responsable for saving failing companies regardless of how large, the people in charge of thies compaines have clearly failed at there jobs dispite there massive paychecks, thus should be fired as anyone else would be. So my opinion is let the companies go under or file ch11 and re-org if posible. That said I do think the govermant has the responsobility to help out the people losing there jobs.

I think what I would do is let the companies die and take the 14b from the TARP and use it to support thoes workers via paying bills and healthcare (figure 14b devided around to about 1m laid off workers is 14k each for 1 year. not the best but IMO much better then giving it to the companies so they can follow in AIG's footsteps and give out huge bonuses to the top exec's so they wont leave. what I dont get is this, thies companies have been dumping massive loads of money to there leaders, why not settle and give them the choice, the top execs/CEO's etc personaly fund the companys bailout and the gov. match what they come up with via paying partial wages/healthcare etc.

my .02 for what its worth.

[GriffGirl]

Need...more...capitalization...and better punctuations...too hard...to read...eyes are cringing....AHHHH!!! No offense, but it looks like incoherent, ramblings of a madman.

and if you read all of it-props to you

I disagree about not placing blame on the Janitor who makes 52K. It's like not placing blame on a spoiled bratty child. Sure, the parents are at fault...but does that let the kid off the hook too?

And don't even get me started about "unions". Has anyone stopped to think how much communism and unions have in common?

I think that's very well put, but the reality is is that if I were making 52k a year, I wouldn't complain about it, whether I deserved that 52k a year or not. There's the flip side of your statement, which is that the janitor should be supported in the lifestyle to which he's become accustomed. The bailout is his alimony (Of course I say that totally facetiously)

I totally understand the importance and value of unions... especially in the context of the turn of the LAST century when they genuinely represented people who were basically being taken for granted and whose labor was being abused. I can support a union that's sole purpose is to preserve safe and fair working conditions. But this has gotten out of hand. Many people who are union members aren't even doing it by choice. It's institutionalized extortion. Unwilling members are extorted into paying their monthly and annual dues, and corporations are extorted into paying ridiculous wages that are disproportionately higher than the market value of their positions is. And don't go off with that "you're not being forced to, you could just quit your job" crap. That may be true, but it's not realistic for a lot of people, and either way, it's still institutionalized extortion.

[97celiman]

yes i know i do this........ alot i really...hate....that...i...do...and...am....working....on..
.it... and im not a madman but i do tend to ramble-my bad

griff- i understand and no i wont go off on the "your not forced to" b/c i do realize that some are forced, and of course its not realistic for people b/c everyone needs a job or at least a source of income; however as you said, they are there to preserve safe FAIR working conditions for workers, which i think is important. That and negotiating health care and what-not, o and equal raises for time spent and worked etc...

o and....



...

[NgoFcukinWay]

So a buddy of mine was telling me today that since Ford didn't get any government money that they're filing lawsuits against any and all websites (and I think companies) that has anything Ford vehicle-related words in their names, ie model names. They're suing for up to $10K for misc sh!t and $5K for copy-right infringement. A forum he frequents (TheRangerStation.com), the admin received a personal letter from Ford saying that he was being sued if he didn't remove all mentions of Ford related items within 10 days. The members in West Virginia or somewhere on the East coast made a stink about it and ended up on the news, so Ford lifted the lawsuit, but there's still a pending lawsuit: the selling of stickers/window decals that says TheRangerStation.com on them which could cost TRS up to $10K. So far Ford has won quite a handful of these lawsuits and are still going. My buddy said the last thing he heard was that the people/company that started the whole "Calvin pissing on the Ford emblem" got attacked and ended up forking over $9.5K to Ford. $5K for copy-right and $4.5K for misc junk.

[TheMadScientist]

we need to break the Unions, just my stance.

I'm in a electrical union IBEW= International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. All I have to say about that is There suposed to be one of the best unions. But I've paid them $60 a week plus $40 a month for union dues and I'm still laid off . All I got from them is a lousy christmas card and they still expect me to pay my union dues. So F*** the union, they were good back in the day when labor laws and pay were unfair.

[Cutrara]

Oh God... Where is Lee Iacocca when you need him?

[Akirad1]

well if ford styled the USDM cars like they do the European versions they prolly sell a lot more cars. for example
http://crazy-cars.net/yonetim/upload/DSCF1206_BUYUK.jpg. this is one bad a$$ focus

This post has been edited by Akirad1: Dec 31, 2008 - 8:01 PM

[stephen_lee]

well if ford styled the USDM cars like they do the European versions they prolly sell a lot more cars. for example
http://crazy-cars.net/yonetim/upload/DSCF1206_BUYUK.jpg. this is one bad a$$ focus

Its honestly NOT about sales.. they SALE vehicles. its the careless spending of thte executives and the low quality/high repair under warranty thats killing them.

Hell, my fiancee's dad has a 2008 F250 that was in the shop for repairs THREE times already. and he just got it in November! total work done was upwards of $18,000. thats honestly pathetic.

[RickJamesBish]

I agree Akira, unless you're into pickups and big trucks (which I'm not), most European cars > USDM.