The engine's in 7th and 6th gen Celica, Why did they change?? Options

[BonzaiCelica]

So i was thinking the other day of the difference between the motor's in the 6th gen and 7th gen celica's. The 3sge engine was a very potential motor with 3rd gen producing 177 hp 142 lb torque, 4th gen "Redtop Beams" 197hp 152 lb torque and the 5th gen "Blacktop" found in the Altezza producing 207 hp and 159 lb's torque. I would say those a pretty impressive numbers.

Honda has had their vtec since the nsx first came out in the early 90's and they have been improving ever since. So why did toyota decide to go with a 1zz-ge and 2zz-ge engine for the celica. I mean the displacement went down in .2 liters. The 1.8 ltr 2zz engine came with vvtl-i to compete with honda's vtec? In the US, the celica only produced a 180 hp and in japan it produced 190 hp. Then there was the trd celica which produced 194 hp. Still that wasnt even enough to touch the Integra type r B18c5 motor which produced 195 hp and had around the same torque as the 7th.

So why didnt toyota stick with the 3sge. They could have produced an 2 ltr engine that had around 215 hp with vvt-i on the intake and exhaust manifold just like the 3sge blacktop.

[richee3]

I don't know every little detail about the reasons for the switch, but I know that the 2ZZ produced 100 hp per liter, something that a regular 3S didn't do. The redtop BEAMS did, so it almost made sense to use it. But the 2ZZ being a 1.8 liter was lighter than a 2.0, and one of the goals of the 7th gen was weight reduction. Also, the vvt helped increase fuel economy. But BEAMS had 17 more hp and 19 more lb. ft. of torque. I guess Toyota wanted more fuel efficiency than power.

[Galcobar]

Cost. The 3SGE was a more powerful, larger, higher-performance engine with a great deal of potential. It cost more to produce.

The whole idea behind the seventh-gen Celica was to take on the cheap little sports car segment, which at the time was basically the Integra. Celicas had gotten quite expensive for their segment. Same reason why a seventh-gen Celica has plastic interiors, while fifth- and sixth-gen have padded vinyl.

[SwissFerdi]

That's what I like about our cars...the interior is the first thing I fell in love with. The soft-touch material is just NOT something you see in cars today...I mean, the whole thing just seems luxurious.

[Hanyo]

Cost. The 3SGE was a more powerful, larger, higher-performance engine with a great deal of potential. It cost more to produce.

The whole idea behind the seventh-gen Celica was to take on the cheap little sports car segment, which at the time was basically the Integra. Celicas had gotten quite expensive for their segment. Same reason why a seventh-gen Celica has plastic interiors, while fifth- and sixth-gen have padded vinyl.

+1



also toyota was trying to change its Public Image. They got rid of all there turbo cars and tried to portray a fuel efficient car company.

[BonzaiCelica]

nice reply's everybody thanks!

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

Do you get what i mean.

Ok lets say you have three 7th gen celica's. One has a B18C5 motor in it, another one has a 3sge redtop beams, and the other one has a 2zz-ge in it.

Its funny you mention cost. 98 Integra Type R was $800 cheaper than SS-III. However this was because the Celica SS-III was equipped with Navigation

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 25, 2017 - 6:00 AM

[RavenAegis45]

the 7th gen was also more closely related to the corolla of the same time since they both used some electronics and the ZZ family engines. where as our cars where somewhere inbetween the Corolla and the Camry. the S series was also more expensive being a Cast Iron Block with the ZZ being Aluminium. overall the 7th gen was a drastically different car from previous Celica's. But if you think about it the basic designs of the S series engines originated in the early to mid 80's starting with the 4th Gen Celica being the 1st front wheel drive celica so natually a new set of engines and tech would have helped the car alot.

[trdproven]

Toyota these days lean towards economy

[nakamura]

Emissions was another issue. The 3SG series wasnt to efficient in that department hence it not coming out of japan after a certain time.
All the factors above mentioned are reasons.

[808celica]

One of us should go buy out and own toyota slap all the engineers and start the Japanese muscle era once again

This post has been edited by 808celica: Aug 10, 2009 - 5:08 AM

[Hanyo]

nice reply's everybody thanks!

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

Do you get what i mean.

Ok lets say you have three 7th gen celica's. One has a B18C5 motor in it, another one has a 3sge redtop beams, and the other one has a 2zz-ge in it.

Which celica out of all three would win in a 0-100 mph race??

If i were to take a guess, i would say its a close race between the 2zz vs b18c5. The red top beams was rated at 197hp, but its actual output varies greatly. I remember a member here posted a video of him on the drag strip with a celica ssII racing a gsr type r, and he manage to win. But we are dealing with modifications here and its really hard to make a fair comparison.

You have to remember the red top beams was design to go against the acura integra Gsr type R. Where as the GTS was design solely to compete against the gsr. That is also the reason why I dislike the 2zz engine. It was design with alot of great ideas, but it was design specifically to make around 200 hp and nothing more.

When it comes down to modified naturally aspired performance, the 18c5 wins. however this is very old technology, the k20 engines are the new standards for naturally aspired engine performance.

[RavenAegis45]

Cost. The 3SGE was a more powerful, larger, higher-performance engine with a great deal of potential. It cost more to produce.

The whole idea behind the seventh-gen Celica was to take on the cheap little sports car segment, which at the time was basically the Integra. Celicas had gotten quite expensive for their segment. Same reason why a seventh-gen Celica has plastic interiors, while fifth- and sixth-gen have padded vinyl.

That reminds me of how Nissan made the SR20DE series to replace the CA18DE due to cost reasons? But the 3S-GE Red top still looks way better than any ZZ Series engine

This post has been edited by RavenAegis45: Aug 10, 2009 - 8:04 PM

[bdub215]

to the op its 1zz-fe (i'd only wish it was a ge head). to try and answer the question it would depend on the transmission used. IIRC the B18C5 is from the integra type r. and with it comes a tranny suited to its powerband. my money would be on the honda power for the simple fact that the Corolla XRS with the 2zz is even or a little bit slower then the integra. but it all comes down to driver...

[enderswift]

slap the engineers? more like the suits that decide what cars will fill what segment. You think the engineers like busting their balls on boring cars?

[BonzaiCelica]

ya stupid toyota with their boring economic cars

oh ya and hanyo lets not try to confuse anybody else when your talking about the integra. dont mix the words gsr with type r. you put the acura integra gsr type r. yes the integra gsr and integra type r have the same motors but the b18c5 is a tuned engine version of the gsr. So your saying the celica gt-s was built to compete with a integra gsr that was rated at 170hp??

oh and lets not say that the b18c5 will overtake the 3sge beams. cause their is a member on the redtop forums that did a monster build to the redtop beams and i believe he is pushing 250hp to the crank!!!

ya and rumors about the new celica having a boxer engine eww that would just playing suck, they need to build a celica engine with those yamaha engineers again

[trdproven]

I did read online the celica gts was built to destroy the integra gsr

[Tony-B]

I own a beams and my brother owns a JDM EK9 (B16b civic type R).

The V-tec engine is a great piece of engineering, but its quite a different drive the beams. In the civic you have to rev to AT LEAST 6K to feel power. When it is in 'Vtec' though it is stupid fast. Its really strange to see the rev counter go so high so quick. Great fun to drive. You feel like a hooligan behind the wheel.

The Beams is sort of a civilised engine i feel (after 18 months of ownership) you drive around town at low revs comfortably and get 630-640 Klms on a tank of petrol. On the other hand it will do near 100mph in third and pulls strong from 3K revs right to the redline in every gear as smooth as silk.

Different engines, different qualities and it depends on your taste and the way you drive i suppose.

Where the Beams wins for me though is on the engine note, 6k revs in third is the best noise ever!!!!

On a side note, i do know of a fellow who sold his JDM DC2 because a VVTL-i 7gen whipped his arse!

[Smaay]

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

i know the answer to this. the 7th gen celica will win hands down. before i turboed the car i would walk all over ITR's and the weight of a car with the Beams in it will slow it down. so sure they might be making the same amount of power, but the weight will be a killer.

putting a 2ZZ in a 6th gen is not a feasible idea. it will cost to much to fabricate everything necessary to make it work. its just like everything i see a thread on NC.org when a newb asks about putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen. its just not worth it. and it will make the car slower

[Tony-B]

Putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen would make it slower?? Not too sure about that mucker. Search for the fensport GT-4x.

[njccmd2002]

Putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen would make it slower?? Not too sure about that mucker. Search for the fensport GT-4x.

i beleive this is expensive. not feasible. ive read it in the new celica forums.

[Edophus]

i had a 2zz in my corolla before i had a 3s-ge beams in my celica, both cars weighed the same, both cars used the same amount of fuel but the beams would leave the 2zz behind by a lot, its just a much stronger engine if everything else is equal, the only penalty is the weight. That was with a stock rev limit too, the beams unit is quite happy revving up to 8000rpm with an aftermarket ecu, you can go higher too if you dont mind risking your bottom end.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 11, 2009 - 12:28 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

very nice reply's everybody this turned out to be a better thread than i thought. Oo cant wait to get that engine....

[Smaay]

Putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen would make it slower?? Not too sure about that mucker. Search for the fensport GT-4x.

you cant count the fensport celica. that car had upteen thousand invested in it.

back to what i was saying, you put in a 200HP 3S-GTE in a 7th gen and it will be slower. you guys think the 3S is so great. yes its great by what its capable of, but in stock trim, its not that powerful of an engine. and it weighs a freaking ton! the entire 2ZZ long block weighs about the same as a stripped 3S block. so when you get power to weight ratio involved, yes its going to make the car slower. also the E153 weighs about 30 lbs more than the C60, so there is another weight addtion.

there are enough mods out there to make a 2ZZ plenty powerful enough now. it will cost over 6000 to install a 3S-GTE including the engine and tranny. then there are mods needed to make it faster. where simple turbo kits are available for the 2ZZ for less than 4000 with management. its simple math

[BonzaiCelica]

uhh 200hp thats a usdm 2nd gen 3sgte. get a 3rd gen 3sgte from japan with 250hp that should do something

[Tony-B]

I was just going to say that!!

A 3s-gte can be tuned to 300bhp+ quite easily. Front mount intercooler, boost controller, fuel pressure regulator, 100 octane fuel, less restrictive pipework etc. None of which are too expensive or hard to get.

I think the power difference would overwrite the weight difference?

But it would be expensive, unless you where an engineer or something.

But the 2ZZ is a nice engine and seems to have a Lot of happy owners so........

Also 3s-gte's were being produced in japan up as far as 2007!

A 2007 caldina GT-4 engine swap to a 6gen? thats a different thread altogether.

[Edophus]

i think it would be pretty pointless swapping out a 2zz for a 3s-ge in a gen 7 as that money could be spent on the 2zz and really both are capable of big power with the right work done to it, i guess the only weak point of the 2zz is its gearbox, but you can probably bolt up the e series box from a 4agze as there really strong.

i still think next to the honda k20 the beams is up there as the best 2 litre engine out there, if you turbo a beams instead of a 3s-gte you end up with a powerband getting on for 2000rpm larger, the turbo will spool up about 1000rpm earlier than a 3s-gte thanks to the vvti, and the ones that have been built so far have managed the same power figures as 3s-gte's but with bigger powerbands, using less boost on smaller turbo's just because the heads so much better, so there is less heat to deal with, also the beams block is the last revision and strongest of all, you just need to swap the pistons/rods and you have the best 3s engine, better than even the caldina gt-four engine.

[Smaay]

but you can probably bolt up the e series box from a 4agze as there really strong.

actually I have made it possible to bolt up the E153 to a 2ZZ....ssshhhh dont tell anyone yet

[Bitter]

lift is pretty fun, but torque all over is much nicer.

[BonzaiCelica]

ok now that what i do not understand! whats the purpose of torque.

honda integra type r 195 hp at 8,000rpm, and 130 lb torque at 7,000 rpm

toyota celica ss-III with 3sge Beams, 197hp at 6,000 rpm and 152 lb of torque at 6,000 rpm.

so the 3sge has 22 more lbs of torque vs the b18c5. what so great about that???

[Bitter]

torque is what moves you, hp is just imaginary.

your 7afe has an awesome torque curve, its pretty much in peak torque from the time you step on the gas until you hit 5800 RPM. the 2zzge has very little torque below 3000 rpm. you have to be up around 3000-5000 rpm to feel torque like the 7afe has between 2000-5000 rpm. of course then you get up into lift and thats just alot of fun, but its fleeting fun. its there and gone so fast.

[SwissFerdi]

Torque is the ability for something to rotate something else.

[Bitter]

Torque is the ability for something to rotate something else.

yes, it turns the earth under your car.

[SwissFerdi]

Torque, also called moment or moment of force (see "Terminology" below), is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis,[1] fulcrum, or pivot. Just as a force is a push or a pull, a torque can be thought of as a twist.

There you have it.

[azian_advanced]

from an engineering perspective, torque is the rotational force for every unit distance at a given time, while horsepower is the rate at which torque changes per unit time. in most cases, torque and horsepower go hand in hand..

so torque is to speed, as horsepower is to acceleration..

This post has been edited by azian_advanced: Aug 12, 2009 - 11:16 PM

[SwissFerdi]

I thought it was the other way around?

[nakamura]

ok now that what i do not understand! whats the purpose of torque.

honda integra type r 195 hp at 8,000rpm, and 130 lb torque at 7,000 rpm

toyota celica ss-III with 3sge Beams, 197hp at 6,000 rpm and 152 lb of torque at 6,000 rpm.

so the 3sge has 22 more lbs of torque vs the b18c5. what so great about that???

Its the delivery of the torque that makes the difference. The 3S is available from around 3200rpm, 90% of torque on my engine was in then. I was hitting 132ft/lbs at 3200 and 152 ft at maximum around 5200ish.

[Edophus]

the way i always think about it is to really forget bhp cause its really only a small part of the puzzle and not that usefull, and think about how much torque the engine generates and over what rpm range it is generating that torque, from that you then take into account the gearing which will be dictated by the rpm range, because its torque at the wheels that is making your car move. once you get your head round that its easier to tell what engines are comparible, because those with low torque but a large rpm ceiling matched to correct gearing can end up with the same torque at the wheels as a large capacity v6 that doesnt rev so high, the only difference in the end being power delivery, ultimate speed of the car can end up the same.

[nics]

so if you put a integra type r 195hp engine, 7th gen celica trd tuned 194 hp engine and a 3sge beams 197hp engine together. Which motor would be the fastest?? All motors produce around the same horspower, one has a vtec system, another vvtl-i and the other one has vvt-i.

i know the answer to this. the 7th gen celica will win hands down. before i turboed the car i would walk all over ITR's and the weight of a car with the Beams in it will slow it down. so sure they might be making the same amount of power, but the weight will be a killer.

putting a 2ZZ in a 6th gen is not a feasible idea. it will cost to much to fabricate everything necessary to make it work. its just like everything i see a thread on NC.org when a newb asks about putting a 3S-GTE in a 7th gen. its just not worth it. and it will make the car slower

WOW..

ok there was a few weeks ago I saw on ebay that there was this 7th gen which has a 3sgte swap..
IDK why he was selling it.. IDK why he chose 3sgte to put in there..



I dont have any idea for the performance b/c the account user account was closed and cant watch the video.

feasible or not it has been done

here's a link with pics if the swap

http://www.fensport.co.uk/fensportcarsfile...rtNewCelica.htm

[Edophus]

thought this might be interesting given the discussion on power and torque bands etc, years ago i considered swapping the beams for a v6, madness i know but i like to explore options and i did some maths and decided it was a waste of time, these calcs ignore transmission loss, given they use the same box and assume the wheels are the same size to keep things simple, also assuming you shift at the point of peak power, and assuming the engines are advertised power. In practice i dont know how realistic they would be but interesting all the same, i know in reality they both rev out to 7400 but from every v6 i've seen power tails of massivly after about 5500rpm.

this is the 1mz-fe vs the redtop beams. First works out the torque at peak power, then torque at the wheels in each gear, and the mph at which its optimum to shift. make of it what you will, all that torque is only really relevant if you have the right gearing to go with it, 4th gear in the v6 and 3rd gear in the beams paints a pretty interesting picture remember its just for fun so no flaming me please

1mz-fe 190bhp @5400rpm

190 * 5252 = 997880

997880 / 5400 = 184.8

184.8 * 3.285 * 4.176 = 2535.1 - 28 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1512.6 - 48 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 1020.2 - 71 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 793.3 - 91 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 632.8 - 114 mph


beams 3s-ge 197bhp @7000rpm

197 * 5252 = 1034644

1034644 / 7000 = 147.8

147.8 * 3.285 * 4.176 = 2027.5 - 37 mph
1.960 * 4.176 = 1209.7 - 62 mph
1.322 * 4.176 = 815.9 - 91 mph
1.028 * 4.176 = 634.5 - 118 mph
0.820 * 4.176 = 506.1 - 147 mph

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 13, 2009 - 2:21 PM

[richee3]

i think it would be pretty pointless swapping out a 2zz for a 3s-ge in a gen 7 as that money could be spent on the 2zz and really both are capable of big power with the right work done to it, i guess the only weak point of the 2zz is its gearbox, but you can probably bolt up the e series box from a 4agze as there really strong.

i still think next to the honda k20 the beams is up there as the best 2 litre engine out there, if you turbo a beams instead of a 3s-gte you end up with a powerband getting on for 2000rpm larger, the turbo will spool up about 1000rpm earlier than a 3s-gte thanks to the vvti, and the ones that have been built so far have managed the same power figures as 3s-gte's but with bigger powerbands, using less boost on smaller turbo's just because the heads so much better, so there is less heat to deal with, also the beams block is the last revision and strongest of all, you just need to swap the pistons/rods and you have the best 3s engine, better than even the caldina gt-four engine.

BEAMS is too high compression for a turbo.

An interesting way to look at torque vs. hp is a chainsaw. Everyone knows Stihl makes great chainsaws, and Husqvarna isn't doing too bad themselves. The difference between the two is that Stihl makes their chainsaws with torque, and Husqvarna tries to make the chain spin faster. The idea behind Stihl is that they want the chain to spin, no matter what. Husqvarna on the other hand wants their chain to spin ridiculously fast to get through the wood. Both methods work just fine, but once the wood gets tough, the Husqvarna lacks the torque to keep the blade spinning as fast and won't cut as well as the Stihl, that is still going.

Basically, torque is going to keep your car moving, even under load, such as heavy acceleration. But hp is nice too

[Edophus]

BEAMS is too high compression for a turbo.

An interesting way to look at torque vs. hp is a chainsaw. Everyone knows Stihl makes great chainsaws, and Husqvarna isn't doing too bad themselves. The difference between the two is that Stihl makes their chainsaws with torque, and Husqvarna tries to make the chain spin faster. The idea behind Stihl is that they want the chain to spin, no matter what. Husqvarna on the other hand wants their chain to spin ridiculously fast to get through the wood. Both methods work just fine, but once the wood gets tough, the Husqvarna lacks the torque to keep the blade spinning as fast and won't cut as well as the Stihl, that is still going.

Basically, torque is going to keep your car moving, even under load, such as heavy acceleration. But hp is nice too

there are thousands of beams blacktop and 2zz owners who have turbo'd there 11.5 :1 comp engines who would disagree with that statement do you know about dynamic compression? also with different pistons it can be any static comp you want.

also do chain saws come with gearboxes?

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 13, 2009 - 4:00 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

pretty much if i an integra type r vs a ss-III 3sge w/ beams have a race in an uphill 40 degree climb. the celica would win.... Am i on the right track???

thats a crazy build that fensport accomplished!! i have the car and driver magazine of the rod millen 500 hp 7th gen 3sgte awd. only did 0-60 in 5 sec. Kinda slow considering awd and all that power. Didnt say much about the car besides it saying that was too much hp for the car to handle!, but somehow fensports did a better job than Rod Millen.. hmm wierd

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 13, 2009 - 6:37 PM

[Hanyo]

pretty much if i an integra type r vs a ss-III 3sge w/ beams have a race in an uphill 40 degree climb. the celica would win.... Am i on the right track???

thats a crazy build that fensport accomplished!! i have the car and driver magazine of the rod millen 500 hp 7th gen 3sgte awd. only did 0-60 in 5 sec. Kinda slow considering awd and all that power. Didnt say much about the car besides it saying that was too much hp for the car to handle!, but somehow fensports did a better job than Rod Millen.. hmm wierd

in a straight line, the car with the most HP will win. Torque doesn't really matter in a straight line.

The instances where the cars start doing turns and the engines are pushed out of the power band is where torque matters. That is also why the celica GTS is faster then a ITR in a drag race, the gear box was design for the engine and you stay in lift everytime you shift. Other wise the gts engine is not that great.

I'm not sure if any of you watch top gear. But they had an episode where they compared s2000 vs z4 vs boxer. Even though the s2000 had the most hp out of the rest of the cars, it was slowest on the track.

[Bitter]

out of lift the 2zz isnt sooo bad, but below 2500 rpm theres just no power at all. and then theres the dead-zone around 5000 rpm...and the engine shakes a bit at 2000 rpm...

but my god it sounds good!

[BonzaiCelica]

ok i think i got the concept of torque

hey edophus, nice reply. Im liking the gear ratios of the s54 with helical. So i think i remembering asking another member what he topped out in the 3sge redtop and he said 147 mph. What was the fastest you ever went in the celica

[Edophus]

ok i think i got the concept of torque

hey edophus, nice reply. Im liking the gear ratios of the s54 with helical. So i think i remembering asking another member what he topped out in the 3sge redtop and he said 147 mph. What was the fastest you ever went in the celica

I think the fastest i took it up to was an indicated 140+ mph before i backed off.... outrunning a prelude 2.2 vtec , but it was still climbing well at that point, i think because the power is still climbing it does very well at those speeds. The s54 is well matched to the beams, i think in the case of say the v6 those gear ratios actually hold it back. I have a video of my beams on track chasing down some integra type-r's aswell you might like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShDyuuYaFCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLPZ1bVgHs

[Tony-B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShDyuuYaFCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLPZ1bVgHs

You're that guy!! You're my hero!!

I've watched those vids tons. If you ever on holidays in Ireland I'm buying you pints.

There is a few turbo'd blacktops here in ireland, and successfully so.

I'll say it again the noise from the beams is amazing, as good as the Honda engines are they still sound like a 125cc motorbike having a heart attack. Word!

[Edophus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShDyuuYaFCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTLPZ1bVgHs

You're that guy!! You're my hero!!

I've watched those vids tons. If you ever on holidays in Ireland I'm buying you pints.

There is a few turbo'd blacktops here in ireland, and successfully so.

I'll say it again the noise from the beams is amazing, as good as the Honda engines are they still sound like a 125cc motorbike having a heart attack. Word!

thanks! always nice to know someone appreciated my work would be only to glad to share a pint with a fellow beams fan, were few and far between!.

the beams sounds even better revving up past 8000rpm, its pretty interesting but in japan they raced the ss3 celica's in n1 endurance racing and you cant modify the engine for that, they used a 8400rpm rev limit, the heads will produce peak power at 8600 rpm with no modifications, but due to piston speed at that point its better to keep it to 8000rpm, its an engine with great potential, as soon as you fit an aftermarket ecu to them they come alive. If i'd kept mine any longer i'd have matched the increased rev limit to an e56 gearbox with 4.9 final drive which would have given the same top speed in each gear as the stock car, but nearly 20% more torque at the wheels, eat your heart out v6 owners muahahahaha

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 14, 2009 - 7:48 AM

[Smaay]

BEAMS is too high compression for a turbo.

and the 2ZZ isnt. i dotn know what the compression of the Beams is but the 2ZZ has 11.5:1 compression and it can be boosted all day long. just have a good tune. Stock 2ZZ's have easily passed the 300HP mark.

[Smaay]

out of lift the 2zz isnt sooo bad, but below 2500 rpm theres just no power at all. and then theres the dead-zone around 5000 rpm...and the engine shakes a bit at 2000 rpm...

but my god it sounds good!

nobody ever lives below 2500 in a 2ZZ so thats not an issue. and i dont know what this dead spot you mention. and i have no engine shaking at 2000. but yes it does sound good. I did a high speed pass for some friends and they say it sounds like a jet engine when im at full boost

[BonzaiCelica]

very awesome vids. I've seen those before!

so what kinda of mods did that white integra have and what mods did you have on your ss-III celica? ya ive heard the engine one time in person, when the car had just been turned on for a minute and man did it sounded really good!!! and that 2.2 ltr prelude that you raced how much hp does that thing have 200?

how does that work with the ecu. what kind of aftermaket ecu did you have on the celica? if you had one at all?

Oh and i was also thinking that since the 3sge never made it to the US cause of emissions, so why did toyota go with a 1.8 2zz-ge i mean c'mon now 2.0 would of had more torque and a mere 180hp isnt enough. I guess honda has been building better engines than toyota has for a longer time... gotta have respect for the honda engineer's, but no respect for the dumb honda race boys that think their civic with swapped b18c5 is the ****, cause of vtec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojB7KkaR03I haha and this is what i mean!!!! haha its funny

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Mar 11, 2017 - 3:10 AM

[Edophus]

thanks the white integra was my freinds, i also helped to build that, both cars were basically identical mod wise, light flywheel, stripped, coilovers and semi slicks, performance was very similar but the integra was running a bit rich up top which was costing him a bit of power, and he was running d2 coilovers which are really junk, we eventually fixed that by fitting a rsr manifold and custom exhaust and binning the d2's for a set of hks hipermax which were infinetly better, both cars put in identical laptimes after that, which says a lot about the strength of the beams considering when both cars are stripped the integra is around 100kg lighter and i hadnt changed anything engine wise in those vids, i had trd superstrut suskit coilovers. The black car i'm catching at the end is another integra on yoko ao48 semi slicks and driven by someone who was a lot more experienced at that track, at that point i'd only been on that track for about 20 minutes, i drove it again the next day and found a ton of time over the whole track but dont have vids of that sadly. I think the 1998 jdm integra had 197 bhp, but from experience there power can vary a bit, some make more some less. Those were fun times and even the integra owners of which there were many at those events had to concede the ss3 was a very good match for the integra! praise indeed!!!

Yup the prelude was a 197 bhp version, a bb1 if i remember right which is one of the slower variants and i really ditched him , another friend has a jdm bb4 with lsd and its just slightly faster than the ss3 was stock, the bb4 prelude is a really nice car to drive and i much prefer it to the integra!

Didnt have any aftermarket ecu in those vids but after that i made a loom that meant i could use a 1zz-fe power-fc to control the beams as you dont get an off the shelf ecu for the beams, so this was a good cheap option that required very little wiring changes to work, i dont have the car or ecu anymore but have the loom still if any beams owners wanted to go down this route. The power-fc now lives on in a turbo charged gen 7 in ireland, so proof that the ecu itself didnt need to be modified.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 15, 2009 - 8:29 AM

[Bitter]

out of lift the 2zz isnt sooo bad, but below 2500 rpm theres just no power at all. and then theres the dead-zone around 5000 rpm...and the engine shakes a bit at 2000 rpm...

but my god it sounds good!

nobody ever lives below 2500 in a 2ZZ so thats not an issue. and i dont know what this dead spot you mention. and i have no engine shaking at 2000. but yes it does sound good. I did a high speed pass for some friends and they say it sounds like a jet engine when im at full boost

you don't get that little shake at 2000 rpm at a stand still? don't really feel it going down the road. its a balance issues/mount issue with the 2zz engine. of course you don't get a deadspot at 5000ish you're boosted. NA though, theres a slightly boggy spot where the low cams are running out steam and lift hasnt kicked in yet.

[Shigexile]

how can people just assume the results of the integra vs celica like that?
hasn't anyone seen the best motoring video where the 7gc does a test against ek9 dc2 dc5 and other?

if i remember correctly, the 7gc lost to both civic and integra


edit: found the link
these are all stock cars with professional drivers at the same level so you can't complain about driver or mods.
0-400m race
race part 1
race part 2

This post has been edited by Shigexile: Aug 16, 2009 - 5:22 PM

[Edophus]

in a discussion about engines just how relevant is a video of some track focused hondas that weigh 80-100kg less than the non track focused celica's going round a track? pretty meaningless imo

btw i have assumed nothing, i have actually raced both my 2zz corolla and beams celica against dozens of type-r's both on and off track and strangely enough when all things are equal, ie, weight, tyres and suspension there similar in performance to the point of being identical.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 16, 2009 - 5:56 PM

[BonzaiCelica]

uhh ya i totally agree edophus. The integra type r is a track ready car straight out of the factory. those celica's are not.

thanks for sharing those vids Shigexile. Ok guys finally found a vid of a SS-III vs integra type r vs mr2 g-limited with beams vs rivals at the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsAwP77056k...feature=related

a little disappointing at first, but ill explain later doing some research....

Type R has Aluminum block, lightweight front windshield, full stainless steel exhaust, no sound insulation, lighter battery, plastic headlights, optional A/C

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Feb 25, 2017 - 6:04 AM

[Edophus]

uhh ya i totally agree edophus. The integra type r is a track ready car straight out of the factory. those celica's are not.

thanks for sharing those vids Shigexile. Ok guys finally found a vid of a SS-III vs integra type r vs mr2 g-limited with beams vs rivals at the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffcx6H5OASc

a little disappointing at first, but ill explain later doing some research....

I cant watch that here at work, but i'm guessing the integra wins right? again it really comes down to the fact that both the ss3 and mr2 with beams are well over 100kg heavier than the integra, niether toyota make any attempt at weight saving, where an integra uses no sound proofing, and lightweight glass, very often no aircon, the toyota's come fully loaded wtih air con, tons of soundproofing etc, have non track biased suspension and similar sized brakes that have more weight to deal with. Deal with those things, or type-r your toyota and its a different story I know there supposed to be rivals by some but really there not as toyota did not aim the celica at the integra knowing fine well that not everyone wants a noisy and harsh car.

actually just watched that now, i'm surprised by how little difference there is between the integra and the ss3 given the integra has at least a 110kg weight advantage! so just imagine what happens if you start removing weight from the celica, the integra has already lost most of the weight it can from the factory.

This post has been edited by Edophus: Aug 17, 2009 - 11:33 AM

[Smaay]

well i just looked at my only NA dyno sheet and it appears that there is a small dip in TQ at 5000 but HP is still climbing.

[Shigexile]

uhh ya i totally agree edophus. The integra type r is a track ready car straight out of the factory. those celica's are not.

thanks for sharing those vids Shigexile. Ok guys finally found a vid of a SS-III vs integra type r vs mr2 g-limited with beams vs rivals at the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffcx6H5OASc

a little disappointing at first, but ill explain later doing some research....

oh nice find!
A translation that they were saying thats important is that Tsuchiya driving the mr2 says that "the dc2 is engineered for track racing (power curve and gear ratio) while toyota is engineered for the sporty road vehicle"
and what Edophus was saying about weight has a lot to do with the results as well.

[mariosdarkworld]

Can you swap over the black top beams in to the celica? I know people will say if you have $$ everything is possible. Im asking if its a ton of work because I think a 6spd black top rwd beams would be awesome. Theres one on youtube that said it has 600bhp idk not sure if its true but i know they can hold turbo pretty well. Theres one w/ a 66 garrett or sumin I believe sorry Idk much about turbos. I just wanted to know if its a direct swap from the Altezza to the celica or if theres a lot more custom fabrication taking place cause about 4k for the 6spd tranny engine and front and rear assembly it sounds like a deal to me. Ill keep researching to see how to manage this.

[BonzaiCelica]

id say dont try to make a rwd celica its not worth it. Instead find yourself an ae86 corolla and swap the blacktop into that. Might make the front end heavier but the power will be really great. check out the beams forums. just type "beams owners group" on the google search engine and you'll see a few members with beams engines in their corolla's

[BonzaiCelica]

I was looking on specs for the 2zz-ge and its seems as though the JDM 2zz-ge produces 187 hp while the European 2zz-ge produces 189 hp? hmm thats funny.

anyways. Do honda's b16, b18, k20, and f20 and 2zz-ge engines are capable of weighing so little because of the fact that they have lift on them, or is it just the material that was made when producing the engine. like the 2zz-ge is all aluminum block or something like that. which one weighs less 2zz-ge or k20?

Do you think toyota would of been able to implement a 6th gen 2.0 liter 3S-GE Dual VVT-i, fwd engine for the 7th Gen Celica producing lets say 210 hp in japan and 195 hp in usdm if they really wanted to, back when they were creating the 7th gen celica in early 1999? And the weight of the engine would be somewhere around the same weight as the 2zz-ge.

do you guys think the redtop was a hand built motor?

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Nov 26, 2013 - 12:57 AM

[Edophus]

I was looking on specs for the 2zz-ge and its seems as though the JDM 2zz-ge produces 187 hp while the European 2zz-ge produces 189 hp? hmm thats funny.

anyways. Do honda's b16, b18, k20, and f20 and 2zz-ge engines are capable of weighing so little because of the fact that they have lift on them, or is it just the material that was made when producing the engine. like the 2zz-ge is all aluminum block or something like that. which one weighs less 2zz-ge or k20?

Do you think toyota would of been able to implement a 5th gen 2.0 ltr 3S-GE dual vvt-i, fwd engine for the 7th Gen Celica producing lets say 210 hp in japan and 195 hp in usdm if they really wanted to, back when they were creating the 7th gen celica in early 1999? And the weight of the engine would be somewhere around the same weight as the 2zz-ge.

do you guys think the redtop was a hand built motor?

2zz is quite bit lighter than the k20 i think, i dont think any of those honda motors are close to the 2zz in terms of lightness, its purely down to the dimensions and materials used, its based on the 1zz which was designed with being as light as possible in mind.

I think if toyota wanted to they could have easily created 200+ bhp 2 litre if they wanted, the 2zz was a bit of an oddity and i suspect a one off really, its done well for them but we'll not see a replacement for it i dont think, toyotas next engines will most likely be infenitly variable lift and timing, there current 2 litre has that, but its not performance orientated at about 160bhp output. Its sad to say they just havent bothered making a performance engine in the 1.6 to 2 litre class like the old 4a-ge, or 3s-ge, its not a cause they cant, its just they wont. I think if they had revised the 3s-ge with dual vvti and an aluminium block it would be a lot lighter, but also its worth remembering that the gearbox for these engines is a bit bigger, the engines itself are bigger because of wider bore spacing etc, so it would not be possible to get it as light as the 2zz as a finished package, but probably close.

no i dont think the redtop was handbuilt, they were produced in large numbers, dont forget the redtop, or greytop, which is identical bar the exhaust manifold, sold in large numbers around the world in the celica, mr2, rav4, and caldina, far to many for it to have been hand built or hand finished.

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm yea ok I see, eeh pity to see where toyota had gone to, when things were going so great with the 4age and 3sge

oh I dont think you answered my question, does the fact that the 2zz-ge has lift make it a lighter than than lets say the vvt-i 1zz-ge which does not have lift.

I know that the 2zz-ge is a slighter heaving engine becuase of the 6 speed manual transmission attached it it.

but 1zz-fe vs 2zzge which is a lighter motor?

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Mar 31, 2010 - 1:01 PM

[Edophus]

hmm yea ok I see, eeh pity to see where toyota had gone to, when things were going so great with the 4age and 3sge

oh I dont think you answered my question, does the fact that the 2zz-ge has lift make it a lighter than than lets say the vvt-i 1zz-ge which does not have lift.

I know that the 2zz-ge is a slighter heaving engine becuase of the 6 speed manual transmission attached it it.

but 1zz-fe vs 2zzge which is a lighter motor?

not really lift adds weight to an engine as you have extra valvetrain parts, i dont know the exact weights of the 1zz but i'd say its going to be lighter because it has less valvetrain, but is otherwise very similar, I think the service weight of the 2zz is 120kg, would think the 1zz is very similar but slightly less, for comparison a 1mz is about 163kg, and a 3s-ge beams about 155ish.

[BonzaiCelica]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 19, 2010 - 1:31 AM

[Edophus]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

thats my current project, blacktop beams into an st182 for track and fun purposes, maybe it was you who asked recently on youtube how i did it?

[Smaay]

hmm yea ok I see, eeh pity to see where toyota had gone to, when things were going so great with the 4age and 3sge

oh I dont think you answered my question, does the fact that the 2zz-ge has lift make it a lighter than than lets say the vvt-i 1zz-ge which does not have lift.

I know that the 2zz-ge is a slighter heaving engine becuase of the 6 speed manual transmission attached it it.

but 1zz-fe vs 2zzge which is a lighter motor?

what does transmission have to do with engien weight? and if you really want to nickle and dime it, thats the only difference between the 5 speed and 6 speed. about 3 or 4 pounds. they have the same housing and same differential.

the 2ZZ definatly weighs more than a 1ZZ the head of the 2ZZ is almost twice as wide as the 1ZZ. block weights are going to be very close, but im going to guess that the 2ZZ head is 30% heavier than the 1ZZ

[RavenAegis45]

hmm i see alot of guys swapping in 3S-GE Blacktop into their celica st182. what did they have to change to make this possible, do they still use the altezza ecu?? Swapping the head from the blacktop, making a custom valve cover painted in the red thats painted on the 3sge redtop and the same pistons used in the blacktop with an aftermarket ecu... would the torque be the same as a blacktop beams??

Recently updated video from japan about a few months back of his SS-III ST202 vs an MR-S fitted with a 2zz-ge im assuming at tsukuba. I also asked him if he has any videos of him versus an Integra Type R DC2 and then i translated it using google and left a comment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4OUOe8u1e0

thats my current project, blacktop beams into an st182 for track and fun purposes, maybe it was you who asked recently on youtube how i did it?

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but from the look of that Intake Manifold, thats the so called Grey top BEAMS 3S-GE, which is more similar to the Red Top but i believe it has a different exhaust manifold and is detuned slightly? but it definitely doesn't look like a true Black Top

[BonzaiCelica]

haha yea thats what I was just going to say. well I still have on answer to my question yet.

ok thanks for clearing that up about the 2zz-ge. hmm ive never seen a k20 into a 7th gen celica i was looking for a video on youtube but had no luck with it....

also what i dont get is why have several people with st182 decided to swap in 3sge blacktops instead of the redtop. I mean the it would be a hell of a lot cheaper right, oh well i'll have to do some research on my own

oh and actually raven yes that is a true blacktop well at least i think it is by the way the header manifold looks, but at the same time the intake manifold is black why is that shouldnt it be red or better yet silver looking like the stock blacktop beams?? or wiat hold up a minute, it just hit me as I'm currently looking for how to convert a blacktop into fwd...

would you be able to buy a 3sge beams blacktop and put the redtop intake manifold on the blacktop engine???

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 19, 2010 - 8:06 PM

[Rusty]

blacktop engine with a greytop manifold, since the blacktop goes the other way. Hows the project going btw Edophus? I haven't checked your progress thread in a while.

[Edophus]

Ummm hate to burst your bubble but from the look of that Intake Manifold, thats the so called Grey top BEAMS 3S-GE, which is more similar to the Red Top but i believe it has a different exhaust manifold and is detuned slightly? but it definitely doesn't look like a true Black Top

its ok my bubble remains intact , its a blacktop alright, look at where the altenator would normally be, thats a water way from the head to the radiator, that part is different to the other beams, as is the oil drain at the other side of the head its in a slightly different position, and also no waterways at the gearbox side of the engine , the intake manifold is from a red top i've just painted it black.

Its basically a blacktop engine, redtop intake manifold/throttlebody, redtop oil pickup and baffle plate, and redtop sump. The timing belt tensioner has been swapped with a redtop tensioner aswell.


This was me mocking up the setup for the altenator as its tucked down the back of the block now, same position as the mr2, it can still be changed once the engine is in position it just takes a little longer. Excuse the mess it was an old barn i was working in and very hard to keep clean!


that was when the engine first went in, quite clearly a blacktop from these pictures, i had to swap the brake master cylinder for a gen 6 ss3 (actually the old one my old ss3!) in order for it to clear the vvti gear.


One of the things that makes this possible without creating a custom mount on the timing belt side is the gen 5 has a different engine mount there to the gen6, which would clash with the exhaust vvti gear, also i removed power steering and abs so i was able to route the water lines at that side of the engine bay.

Bonzai, i dont think there is that many, the only other blacktop st182 i know of is in germany, i know of a few mr2's though, but maybe there has been more since i last looked. Its not a lot of point in doing this over the redtop, but the blacktop has a lighter valvetrain intended to rev higher, and it makes a bit more power at higher revs, perfect for my track car, also blacktop engines are cheaper over here in the uk, so cost wise its not been any different to convert the blacktop with some redtop parts, as it would be to buying in a redtop. Aftermarket ecu was always part of the plan aswell. The blacktop should yeild a little extra power and revs and hopefully be worth the extra work.

At the moment the engine is in and running, but it needs the fueling sorted, also the blacktop throttlebody being drive by wire is a pain, and isnt working right, not sure if it needs to talk to the vsc/trc ecu that would normally be in an altezza, i've given up on it for justnow, and will be using an adaptronic ecu and binning the altezza ecu, will be using the redtop throttle body.

Havent done anything of late Rusty, its been in storage for a couple months now at a freinds lockup, and probably will be for a couple more, i'm currently looking for a new place, i've got my new wiring loom to be doing meantime. But damn i need this thing on the road I got to drive it onto the back of a trailer though

[BonzaiCelica]

update on your blacktop beams swap into the st182???

im looking into gearing options for the s54. Edophus you said something earlier about putting an e56 transmission on an 3sge beams redtop. What are the ratio's for the E56?

[Edophus]

update on your blacktop beams swap into the st182???

im looking into gearing options for the s54. Edophus you said something earlier about putting an e56 transmission on an 3sge beams redtop. What are the ratio's for the E56?

I would need to dig them out they are in the wiki gen 6 section linked on ccuk, the final drive is slightly shorter than the s54 but there are off the shelf final drives available for the e56 if you want to change them. as for an update havent really got one, its not in storage anymore as i'm in a new house and all of it is here now but its in bits at the moment, i just agreed to buy an st205 from a freind though

[Rusty]

Celica GT nl website & CCUK facts and figures (may require you to be registered to view)

E56
Reverse -3.583
1st 3.538
2nd 2.045
3rd 1.333
4th 1.028
5th 0.820
final gear 3.944 (the same as the S54 spec)....aswell as 4.176 which is the... USA/Japanese specs
means I mad a mistake about the 'factory S54 final drive' (I used the euro version instead of the Japanese/usa one)

But I still stand by my opinion of your current final drive. As it fits with whats happening between revs and speed.

Edophus you can get up todate with what we're talking about here http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...78064&st=80 definitely would like to hear your views, so we can either move discussion over to there or start a new thread

[BonzaiCelica]

Yes please do put some input that wud be great