Installed new engine, and got unsolved problems... Options

[Iceman22]

Hi.
This week the workshop finished swapping engine (3s-ge) from a JDM ST202 into mine AT200 (7A-FE). The whole exhaust incl. the cat was also swapped. The new engine only had 80000 miles before the swap.
Almost everything seems too be fine except this:

1. Rough idling and very poor engine performance (feels like 60hp). Engine gets very warm when driving. Also when the engine is cold and I start it, I have to give some gas in the beginning or it will shut down. The muffler is also making abnormal noise.

2. Fuel gauge is showing lowest position and yellow lamp lighting. Before I delivered the car it was showing half tank.


What can be the cause for these problems and where should I start for solving these problems asap?
The ECU hasn't been swapped yet.

And sorry for my bad english..

This post has been edited by Iceman22: Oct 4, 2009 - 11:56 AM

[netrata]

You already mentioned the problem area. One being that you will need to install the ecu meant for the 3sge and two the ecu for the 7afe ecu and 3sge ecu are different, so you will need to make the changes to those pinouts on the connectors in order to have your car running properly.

[95CelicaST]

ECU is the problem. You're trying to run a 3S-GE on a completely unrelated ECU. The ECU is trying to keep the engine running at 7AFE parameters when in reality it's probably doing a bit of damage.

You NEED to have the harnesses (3SGE and 7AFE) spliced together and running the 3SGE ECU. If you have the full JDM harness for the 3SGE then its just a swap over and plug into the proper ECU.

[Iceman22]

Ok thanks. But what with the immobiliser, will the car start when changing ECU?

[95CelicaST]

Don't know. Plug the new ECU in and find out. I don't think it'll cause a problem.

[Iceman22]

Is it nobody that has changed ECU that can confirm that the immobiliser will not be a problem? Most say that I will never be able to start the car when only swap the ECU and wire harness, because the immobiliser will lock up.

[Cavegod]

try it and find out.

[Iceman22]

Hi. We asked all the workshops and car electricians in the town about swaping the ECU, and all rejected the offer.... They said it wasn't worth it because of the wire harness and risk with imobiliser problems. But we find one workshop who was able to reprogram/flash the 7A-ECU with 3s-ge software. The car is now running fine according to them.

Which disadvantages are there with 7A-FE ecu and 3s-ge software? According to the workshop they said it won't make a difference, but it may be some sensors that were one the 3s-ge wireharness that I dont have.

[playr158]

there is no immobiliser on a 6gc...

what are the disadvantages?! ITS THE WRONG MOTOR ON THE WRONG ECU....every thing that ecu is doing is WRONG for that motor.
Fueling is different, timing is different, ignition is different...

Whoever said they put 3sge software on a 7afe ecu is lying to you...

3sge motor = 3sge ecu or standalone there really are no exceptions.

(nobody should ever do a swap like this :facepalm:)

This post has been edited by playr158: Sep 9, 2009 - 6:22 AM

[Iceman22]

there is no immobiliser on a 6gc...

what are the disadvantages?! ITS THE WRONG MOTOR ON THE WRONG ECU....every thing that ecu is doing is WRONG for that motor.
Fueling is different, timing is different, ignition is different...

Whoever said they put 3sge software on a 7afe ecu is lying to you...

3sge motor = 3sge ecu or standalone there really are no exceptions.

(nobody should ever do a swap like this :facepalm:)

Maybe there isn't immobiliser on US spec 6gc, because I know my car has it, that is 100%. It is marked on the car, "this car has immobiliser"
If the mechanic said he flashed the ecu with 3sge software, why shouldn't I beleive him when the car is running as it should? I know how the car behaved before and how it is behaving now.

This post has been edited by Iceman22: Sep 9, 2009 - 6:48 AM

[Bitter]

toyota ECU's are not flashable once they have been programmed at the factory except by special toyota computer systems, even then the 7afe's rev limiter is hard coded via a crystal on the board and not changeable. your 3sge would like to rev higher than 6000 rpm.

[delusionz]

This thread is very bizarre.

In theory this engine should never have been started in such a condition.

Is it driving? How do you know the 3S-GE is operating as it should? do you know someone who has a genuine 3S-GE engined car?

Why is it that your car is the only Celica in the world that can be flashed?

Tell us something!!

And as bitter points out... the rev limiter... if you feel its safe to put your foot down, try for the limiter.. (waste of time if you cant get to 7000, this is where the 177BHP is, revving to 6k gives you nothing more than a 3S-FE)

[95CelicaST]

Just plug the damn 3SGE ECU in. The immobilizer (if there is one) isn't going to do anything, because it's just looking for a signal, which it will get from the new ECU.

[soulshadow]

JDM has no smog regulations, I wonder if your Mechanic knew what he was doing or do you even realize that it might not be a 3SGE but instead a 5SFE?

[stephen_lee]

JDM has no smog regulations, I wonder if your Mechanic knew what he was doing or do you even realize that it might not be a 3SGE but instead a 5SFE?

its a 5s, and the mech that "flashed" the ECU realized that, and put the correct stock ECU in place.

This is NOT a Honda. You CANNOT flash ROM. (ROM = Read Only Memory)
Toyota Uses ROM
Honda has [E]EPROM ([E]PROM = [electronically]Erasable Programmable Memory)

[rave2n]

Clarification. You can flash a ROM....the ECU from what I understands is flashable but definately not by your local mechanic. It needs specific hardware and software to accomplish the task. Thus its not impossible, but definately not feasible.

Just because its "Read Only Memory" doesn't mean it cannot be flashed.

[soulshadow]

If somehow out of the blue, your Mechanic was also an Engineer yeah I believe it was flashable, but at this point where your car is running like a champ that just lost his belt. I don't think so.

[Bitter]

Clarification. You can flash a ROM....the ECU from what I understands is flashable but definately not by your local mechanic. It needs specific hardware and software to accomplish the task. Thus its not impossible, but definately not feasible.

Just because its "Read Only Memory" doesn't mean it cannot be flashed.

toyota ECU's are not flashable once they have been programmed at the factory except by special toyota computer systems, even then the 7afe's rev limiter is hard coded via a crystal on the board and not changeable. your 3sge would like to rev higher than 6000 rpm.

as i said

the 7afe and 5sfe ecu's are flashable at the factory when they're programmed. after that the only way you get a new program is to replace the computer. later toyota ecu's are re-flashable by toyota at a dealership level. your ecu's are built to be programmed once and then on a read only device, the only things that can be written in them are fuel trims and emissions codes/check engine light data.

[rave2n]

JDM has no smog regulations, I wonder if your Mechanic knew what he was doing or do you even realize that it might not be a 3SGE but instead a 5SFE?

its a 5s, and the mech that "flashed" the ECU realized that, and put the correct stock ECU in place.

This is NOT a Honda. You CANNOT flash ROM. (ROM = Read Only Memory)
Toyota Uses ROM
Honda has [E]EPROM ([E]PROM = [electronically]Erasable Programmable Memory)

I was responding to that, not you Bitter.


BTW: I have 80 dollors now. Can I mod my car?

[Bitter]

i was just reinforcing my point.


no

[rave2n]

i was just reinforcing my point.


no

Aw, for a second I thought you might find some humor in something. Ah well, beggers can't be choosers.

Do you own a Celica? Or have in the past. I see nothing in your profile. Just curious.

Got more then 80, actually have quite a bit of parts coming in, and magically they cost me more then 80 bucks.../gasp, was hoping you might actually find humour in your "bitter"ness. Why are you so bitter btw? Genetics? Do YOU not have 80 dollars to mod your car? Cause if you don't, you DEFINATELY should not be modding your car. That'll just come back and bite ya in the butt. "Trust me"


Back on Topic: GL sir with your swap, and I hope it all works out for ya, regardless of the flashing and troubles. Hopefully you get the correct ECU in there, and get that new engine running like it should. Props on the swap, and looking forward to more details!

[Bitter]

i owned a 93 geo prizm for nearly 5 years that i spent way too much time/money messing around with, it was a fun car and a great first car

now i own a 2000 celica GTS and i've been much more selective and careful about what i buy and don't buy, do and don't do, doing more research and thought before i do things or buy things.


the correct solution to this problem is to install the correct ECU, end of discussion.

[Iceman22]

If somehow out of the blue, your Mechanic was also an Engineer yeah I believe it was flashable, but at this point where your car is running like a champ that just lost his belt. I don't think so.

The ECU was not flashed by the mechanic, but he knew a specialist that had the equipment that was needed to flash the ecu...

At this moment, engine behaves totaly different compared to 7a-fe software. The acceleration is much better than it was with the previous engine, the cooling is working, there's no more rough idling and everything else seems to work like before. I had no other choice than change the software, no one would take the job swaping the wire harness and ecu. I'm not convinced yet that changing the ECU right now is nescerary since I got no problems so far, but I'm willing to try out swaping myself of curiousity. I'm not a mechanic and not a electrician, could I swap this on my own or is it very difficult?

This post has been edited by Iceman22: Sep 15, 2009 - 1:31 PM

[Bitter]

contact pheonix tuning and he can make you the correct engine wiring harness to be able to simply plug in the correct ECU. just for ****s and giggles, can you take a picture of your ECU label for us?

This post has been edited by Bitter: Sep 15, 2009 - 6:34 PM

[Iceman22]

Ok guys, it appeared to be 3S-FE (jdm SS-I 140hp) engine instead of GE (SS-II)...(I though that all 2.0 litres in japan where 3s-ge)
So I've got less HP than expected and almost the same torque as GE. Maybe there would be more problems with 3s-ge on 7a-fe ecu...
Anyway, the engine is running very well, got no problems at all, only got 80500 miles on it so it will run many years more I believe
I have noticed that the fuel consumption have raised a little compared to 7a-fe, but that should be normal. And finnaly, the oil consumption is normal, I don't need to refill oil every 2-3 weeks like it was with 7a-fe, that was the biggest reason that I decided to get new engine... 3S engines are the best
The power can't be compared to the GT4 I have with 300hp, but it's definitively feel much faster than 7a-fe

Here are pictures from the ecu if anybody is interested and two pics of the new paint .
also added 7a-fe ecu pinouts pic.
Click on the pictures to enlarge them...



3S-FE ECU:



7A-FE ECU:







This post has been edited by Iceman22: Oct 4, 2009 - 12:45 PM

[Iceman22]

And I got some questions...
1. The exhaust sounds a little more silent than before (when siting in the car) I have the same muffler like before, why is that?

2. On the catalyic converter it was a empty hole, someone says it is for measure the o2 gass in some countries, the workshop welded it.. So what is it for?

3. Is it true that JDM cars have adjustable fuel amount? How to do it?

This post has been edited by Iceman22: Oct 4, 2009 - 12:10 PM

[95CelicaST]

1. Different engines make different sounds. It's nothing to worry about, but could be effected by #2.

2. There is an O2 sensor that would go in that hole near the cat. If this was left wide open before then some exhaust would leak out there and make the car louder.

3. I don't think this is true.




And I think what bitter was asking is if you could take a picture of the ECU presently installed in your car.