Swap: 3sge Beams into 94GT-RIP=DEAD Options

[turnip]

70mph and wall equals the devastation.













Good Day All.

I have some questions that i did not get from trolling and searchings. I hope that the some of the swap gurus can chime in.

Project: Swap 6gen JDM 3SGE Beams into 1994 USDM GT.
Goals: 200whp and reliability
Use: Race - Car will be completely gutted including all glass and prepped for racing.

Current setup is a stock 5SFE with 60k miles.
Transplanting 3SGE Beams and LSD S54 tranny. Yet to be procured. I have few I am looking at with money in hand.

Drivetrain - The 5SFE has an S54 on it and I assume that the axles and clutch will interchange?
Question#1 - Did any of the USDM Celicas with the S54 have stock LSD?
Question#2 - Flywheel and clutch upgrade? What are my options?

Electrical - Since its a same Gen Celica did the harnesses drastically change over the lifecycle of the 6th Gen? Pre Post OdbII?
Question#1 - Can someone confirm that the stock USDM harness will plug and play with the ECU and Beams? With exception to wires being lenghted to accomodate RHD vs LHD.
Question#2 - If my assumptions for one is complete off please guide me in the correct direction.
Question#3 - Dash Cluster - Racing I really do not care about speed as much as temps and RPM. I do not want to buy an JDM dash cluster is there a work around to make the stock one work? Otherwise will likely go the DEFI Link route.
Question#4 ODBII vs ODB1 The 94 is ODB1. The Beams will be ODBII Has anyone got this to work on a pre 96 vehicle? I only ask as ODB is a good way to check sensor failure vs the plug and play method.


Tuning
Goal of 200whp with Intake, Exhaust upgrade, no cat, no P/S, no A/C, Flywheel upgrade, ecu, ect.
Questions1 - Does anyone have experience with any of the JDM ECUs such as Mines, Toms, I.Mec, Blitz?
Question#2 - Headers any experience with C-One, Apexi, HKS, Fujitsubo?
Question#3 - Crank/Balancer Pulley.. Is there one?


Thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by turnip: Oct 7, 2011 - 8:57 AM

[njccmd2002]

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams/

youll find more answers in that forum.

[BonzaiCelica]

first off. Welcome to the site. 6gc.net is the best resource for celica information. probably the best forums out of all the other celica websites. I see that your pretty new around here. One thing you should do before asking some basic questions about the great beams redtop. Use the search button in the top right hand corner. Search for words such as 3sge, 3sge beams, Beams. then come back to this thread and most of your questions should be answered.

This post has been edited by BonzaiCelica: Aug 26, 2009 - 2:24 PM

[turnip]

http://www.mr2.com/forums/beams/

youll find more answers in that forum.

Thank you this will be very helpful.

[turnip]

first off. Welcome to the site. 6gc.net is the best resource for celica information. probably the best forums out of all the other celica websites. I see that your pretty new around here. One thing you should do before asking some basic questions about the great beams redtop. Use the search button in the top right hand corner. Search for words such as 3sge, 3sge beams, Beams. then come back to this thread and most of your questions should be answered.

Thanks. I have logged a ton of hours searching not only this forum but the half a dozen other forums regarding Celicas and Beams. You definitly find useful information but a lot of the threads did not seem to be totally definitive.

As for the Beams this will be the second one I have owned. The first one was out of an SXE/Altezza which keith at RPM sent me for my 71 corona. Unfortunately it would not fit do to the sub frame and steering rack. I wish I would have kept it.

Please find me a thread discussing 3SGE Swap discussing OBDII /OBD2 functionality with a OBDI / OBD1. Search is a valuable tool but 3SGE and Beams are broad in scope especially on this forum. I tried running +Beams+OBDII and it returned 24 pages. Whats the best way to narrow down my search results from 24 pages?

Im here to learn.

This post has been edited by turnip: Aug 26, 2009 - 4:42 PM

[Batman722]

Good Day All.

I have some questions that i did not get from trolling and searchings. I hope that the some of the swap gurus can chime in.

Project: Swap 6gen JDM 3SGE Beams into 1994 USDM GT.
Goals: 200whp and reliability
Use: Race - Car will be completely gutted including all glass and prepped for racing.

Current setup is a stock 5SFE with 60k miles.
Transplanting 3SGE Beams and LSD S54 tranny. Yet to be procured. I have few I am looking at with money in hand.

Drivetrain - The 5SFE has an S54 on it and I assume that the axles and clutch will interchange?
Question#1 - Did any of the USDM Celicas with the S54 have stock LSD?
No
Question#2 - Flywheel and clutch upgrade? What are my options?
you would need a 3s or resurfaced beams flywheel and 3s pressure plate, with a 5s disk and throw out bearing (hybrid kit)
Electrical - Since its a same Gen Celica did the harnesses drastically change over the lifecycle of the 6th Gen? Pre Post OdbII?
Question#1 - Can someone confirm that the stock USDM harness will plug and play with the ECU and Beams? With exception to wires being lenghted to accomodate RHD vs LHD.
Lengthen the wires, yes. The harness isn't plug and play, a couple of wires have to be re-pinned.
Question#2 - If my assumptions for one is complete off please guide me in the correct direction.
see above
Question#3 - Dash Cluster - Racing I really do not care about speed as much as temps and RPM. I do not want to buy an JDM dash cluster is there a work around to make the stock one work? Otherwise will likely go the DEFI Link route.
just use whats in the car. everything will still work just fine.
Question#4 ODBII vs ODB1 The 94 is ODB1. The Beams will be ODBII Has anyone got this to work on a pre 96 vehicle? I only ask as ODB is a good way to check sensor failure vs the plug and play method.
overseas there is no OBD anything, just engines. US cars are OBDI and II, putting a non OBDX engine in a OBDII car (96+) is gonna be a problem for state inspections.

Tuning
Goal of 200whp with Intake, Exhaust upgrade, no cat, no P/S, no A/C, Flywheel upgrade, ecu, ect.
Questions1 - Does anyone have experience with any of the JDM ECUs such as Mines, Toms, I.Mec, Blitz?
for the beams, most use an ecu piggyback like an e-manage or safc
Question#2 - Headers any experience with C-One, Apexi, HKS, Fujitsubo?
?
Question#3 - Crank/Balancer Pulley.. Is there one?
?


Thanks in advance.

[njccmd2002]

Good Day All.

I have some questions that i did not get from trolling and searchings. I hope that the some of the swap gurus can chime in.

Project: Swap 6gen JDM 3SGE Beams into 1994 USDM GT.
Goals: 200whp and reliability
Use: Race - Car will be completely gutted including all glass and prepped for racing.

Current setup is a stock 5SFE with 60k miles.
Transplanting 3SGE Beams and LSD S54 tranny. Yet to be procured. I have few I am looking at with money in hand.

Drivetrain - The 5SFE has an S54 on it and I assume that the axles and clutch will interchange?
Question#1 - Did any of the USDM Celicas with the S54 have stock LSD?
No
Question#2 - Flywheel and clutch upgrade? What are my options?
you would need a 3s or resurfaced beams flywheel and 3s pressure plate, with a 5s disk and throw out bearing (hybrid kit)
Electrical - Since its a same Gen Celica did the harnesses drastically change over the lifecycle of the 6th Gen? Pre Post OdbII?
Question#1 - Can someone confirm that the stock USDM harness will plug and play with the ECU and Beams? With exception to wires being lenghted to accomodate RHD vs LHD.
Lengthen the wires, yes. The harness isn't plug and play, a couple of wires have to be re-pinned.
Question#2 - If my assumptions for one is complete off please guide me in the correct direction.
see above
Question#3 - Dash Cluster - Racing I really do not care about speed as much as temps and RPM. I do not want to buy an JDM dash cluster is there a work around to make the stock one work? Otherwise will likely go the DEFI Link route.
just use whats in the car. everything will still work just fine.
Question#4 ODBII vs ODB1 The 94 is ODB1. The Beams will be ODBII Has anyone got this to work on a pre 96 vehicle? I only ask as ODB is a good way to check sensor failure vs the plug and play method.
overseas there is no OBD anything, just engines. US cars are OBDI and II, putting a non OBDX engine in a OBDII car (96+) is gonna be a problem for state inspections.

Tuning
Goal of 200whp with Intake, Exhaust upgrade, no cat, no P/S, no A/C, Flywheel upgrade, ecu, ect.
Questions1 - Does anyone have experience with any of the JDM ECUs such as Mines, Toms, I.Mec, Blitz?
for the beams, most use an ecu piggyback like an e-manage or safc
Question#2 - Headers any experience with C-One, Apexi, HKS, Fujitsubo?
?
Question#3 - Crank/Balancer Pulley.. Is there one?
?


Thanks in advance.

ha, this is going to my notebook. Ill be asking you questions in 3 months.

[turnip]

Appreciate all the help Batman. Here is the link i was reading stating that in 1996 ODBII became a worldwide standard. http://www.ecutek.com/tuning/history/

I will definitely research the flywheel clutch setup a little more as thats a definite upgrade including timing belt and water pump.

I am looking at a couple engines right now on ebay. The local ones only have the trans mount and missing the other two. Has anyone dealt with these guys http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-ST202-3...#ht_1695wt_1098

Thanks again.

[njccmd2002]

where are you..

[BonzaiCelica]

uh hold on a sec Batman. whats that your saying about using a 5sfe throw out disk and bearing. The s54 on 3sge redtop is a helical lsd. So stock axles from usdm gt celica will fit into the tranny correct.

I heard that obd II will help better tune the car, if you decide to do so. If thats even true or not....

http://www.nengun.com/toyota/celica-st202 check out that site. some stuff for the 3sge redtop.

[turnip]

where are you..

*.*

This post has been edited by turnip: Aug 30, 2009 - 8:57 PM

[turnip]

And it begins.

Picked Up Today


Optimistic to have this out tomorrow


Now for the fun part. I got a hell of a deal on the engine including LSD. Down side is that it did not come with the fuse panel from the JDM Celica. So I have printed off every wiring diagram I can find and any insight to getting this wiring project would be appreciated. I am debating on to cut the 5sfe and splice it in or just go to the junk yard and grab another 5sfe as do plan on selling the 5sfe since it only has 60k on it.



This post has been edited by turnip: Aug 31, 2009 - 12:46 PM

[Batman722]

uh hold on a sec Batman. whats that your saying about using a 5sfe throw out disk and bearing.

the flywheel and the pressure plate is a 3s.
the disk is 5sfe (or just buy the acutal beams disk) and tob is s54.
that's what I'm saying.

The s54 on 3sge redtop is a helical lsd. So stock axles from usdm gt celica will fit into the tranny correct.

I'm very aware of that.

[BonzaiCelica]

oh ok thanks.

[njccmd2002]

Congratulations, i recognize that beams, i think, wow, another one. There will be 4 beams celi that i know of. Good luck, did that engine come with the afm?

[turnip]

Congratulations, i recognize that beams, i think, wow, another one. There will be 4 beams celi that i know of. Good luck, did that engine come with the afm?

Sure do. My biggest hurdle is going to be wiring up that fuse box. Gonna get it in and running and then gonna pull it back out to service. I want to put a new clutch, F/W, Water pump, timing, ect. Want to make sure I test her out before the warranty goes by by.

Hoping some of the swap gurus can weight in on my cut harness. I got the 5sfe about ready to come out. Hopefully wed night.

[Outsider]

Can I assume that all of those cut wires come from the EA1 plug that is under the fuse box in the engine bay?

[turnip]

Those cut wire represent the beams harness lead that goes to the fuse box. It includes the ones going to the plug and to the front relays for ST/EFI/Alt-100amp/60Main.

I have identified all of the wire from harness to harness I believe based on colors. There are a few that are different.

- The black/yellow with silver rings from the 94gt harness looks to match up with the beams black/red with silver rings. EDIT *Confirmed*

Not Sure Wires on Beams
- solid black 16gauge EDIT *This wire is a larger gauge black with orange stripe on 94gt*
- black with red line 16 gauge EDIT *This wire seems to be extra and not on the 94GT*

94Gt Harness not matched
- black with orange stripe 12 gauge on plug EDIT *This wire is all black on the Beams harness*
- blue 7.5 SRS wire 18 gauge

94gt plug with the black/Orange wire


94gt Front Fuse upside down


Beam Plug - I do not have this.


Beams Harness lead to fuse box that was cut.


Any insight is appreciated.
Thanks

Can I assume that all of those cut wires come from the EA1 plug that is under the fuse box in the engine bay?

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 2, 2009 - 10:00 AM

[trdproven]

uh hold on a sec Batman. whats that your saying about using a 5sfe throw out disk and bearing.

the flywheel and the pressure plate is a 3s.
the disk is 5sfe (or just buy the acutal beams disk) and tob is s54.
that's what I'm saying.

The s54 on 3sge redtop is a helical lsd. So stock axles from usdm gt celica will fit into the tranny correct.

I'm very aware of that.

Actually it is 3s flywheel, 3s pressure plate, 3s disk with 5s spline, 5s TOB. 5s disk like Manny showed is too small for the 3s flywheel.

[njccmd2002]

So any 3 s will do, fidanza aluminum for the 3sgte ?

[BonzaiCelica]

uh hold on a sec Batman. whats that your saying about using a 5sfe throw out disk and bearing.

the flywheel and the pressure plate is a 3s.
the disk is 5sfe (or just buy the acutal beams disk) and tob is s54.
that's what I'm saying.

The s54 on 3sge redtop is a helical lsd. So stock axles from usdm gt celica will fit into the tranny correct.

I'm very aware of that.

Actually it is 3s flywheel, 3s pressure plate, 3s disk with 5s spline, 5s TOB. 5s disk like Manny showed is too small for the 3s flywheel.

does anybody else feel confused when this read this. Im thinking im not understanding what you guys are saying. Ok so this is what i plan on doing. Fidanza lightweight flywheel, and a Clutch Master Stage 2 clutch kit. will this work. any pics/ illustrations would help explain and yes, i did change my own clutch with a help of a friend so i kind of know what your talking bout. whats a 5s spline??

[turnip]

Engine Coming out today. Sure would like to pull it from the top but doesnt look like there is any room. Man a lift would be handy about now.

[Batman722]

Engine Coming out today. Sure would like to pull it from the top but doesnt look like there is any room. Man a lift would be handy about now.

it's do-able from the top.

[presure2]

uh hold on a sec Batman. whats that your saying about using a 5sfe throw out disk and bearing.

the flywheel and the pressure plate is a 3s.
the disk is 5sfe (or just buy the acutal beams disk) and tob is s54.
that's what I'm saying.

The s54 on 3sge redtop is a helical lsd. So stock axles from usdm gt celica will fit into the tranny correct.

I'm very aware of that.

Actually it is 3s flywheel, 3s pressure plate, 3s disk with 5s spline, 5s TOB. 5s disk like Manny showed is too small for the 3s flywheel.

the 5s disk does, and is working.
especially for these guys that arnt pushing 300+ft lbs. thru the disk

yes, its a 3s flywheel you guys would need, 3s pressure plate, 5s disk (or 3s disk with S54 spline count) and s54 TOB

Engine Coming out today. Sure would like to pull it from the top but doesnt look like there is any room. Man a lift would be handy about now.

it's do-able from the top.

15 or 16 chain links on the drivers side hook, 5 on passanger, lower the tranny and out it comes!

[turnip]

Its out. Down through the bottom it came. Its a good thing because I have tried everything to get the driver side axle out. We are prying so hard I am concerned something could get boogered up. Any tricks I am not aware of?? In fact the 3sge they just tore out the axle from the tulip as its still in the transaxle.

EDIT * Axles is out. 4ft 2" angle iron and it popped out. *

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 3, 2009 - 9:36 PM

[Smaay]

yeah axles are a PITA getting out. one reason i love the 7th gen axles. they have a clip in them that prevent pulling the shaft out of the CV. just pull on the axle and it pops out

[turnip]

Engine in and hope to have it running this week. Gonna be a busy one with work so I am not sure when I will get back to it. Will keep you all posted. Appreciate all the help.

[Rusty]

wow you dont muck around, good to see more 3s-ge 's being put in

[turnip]

After a of crazy work week, I finally got a chance to finish hooking everything up in prep to try to start it. Pin 4 and 17 are spliced together and the harness is hooked up. I gave it a whirl and the dash lights up and I hear the fuel pump kick over but when I try to start I get nothing. I went back and checked all of my splices in the engine bay and they look good.

Is there something I am missing? On page one Batman said that a few wires have to be repinned? It seems like the starter is not being told to turn over. I suspect there might be a wire under the dash that needs spliced. I am looking over the ecu pin outs between the two ecu's. I am trying to find a pin out diagram for the three plugs that connect from the beams harness to the under dash harness. trolling mr2.com in the meantime.

Thanks

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 12, 2009 - 9:23 PM

[Batman722]

It's not just pins 4 and 17 on EA1, but interior wires also. I told you it wasn't plug and play...
hint : if it's not starting, refer to "starting and charging" in both manuals

start with this...
was you car m/t ? if so, you need to switch a wire from one interior plug to another. Interior plugs are the 3 plugs next to the ECU that plug in vertically. If it was an auto there's additional wiring like I did with Tina's, Stef's, and Jim's car but it's move involed and difficult to explain online, but I'll try if you need me to, just let me know.

m/t - you need to pull the black wire (pin 18) from the white plug and move it to the dark grey plug to pin 17. That is the clutch start switch wire. Overseas and US have the csw wire in different spots, so you need to move pin 18 from the white plug to pin 17 in the dark grey one, just like the 5s harness.

didn't you compare the pins in the 2 harnesses before you started ?

This post has been edited by Batman722: Sep 13, 2009 - 12:53 AM

[turnip]

First off. Thank you. I did look over the harness before starting but must say I was a little confused as its a little intimidating when you dig into it. Thats when I decided to post up and start doing more research.

So now that you have guided me in the right direction. Pin 18(white) and Pin17(dark grey) are now connected. In reviewing all of the 3 vertical plugs, here is what I have that does not match.


Plug E6 (light grey)
USDM Harness has Pin 4 - missing on Beams harness - wire color blue with orange rings

Plug E3 (Dark Grey)
USDM harness has Pin 1 - Beams Pin 8 - Wire color white with blue stripe
USDM harness has Pin 10 - 0 on Beams - wire color blue with white stripe
USDM harness has Pin 16 - 0 on Beams - wire color pink
USDM harness missing Pin 9 - Beams has this - wire color solid grey/silver ring

Thanks

It's not just pins 4 and 17 on EA1, but interior wires also. I told you it wasn't plug and play...
hint : if it's not starting, refer to "starting and charging" in both manuals

start with this...
was you car m/t ? if so, you need to switch a wire from one interior plug to another. Interior plugs are the 3 plugs next to the ECU that plug in vertically. If it was an auto there's additional wiring like I did with Tina's, Stef's, and Jim's car but it's move involed and difficult to explain online, but I'll try if you need me to, just let me know.

m/t - you need to pull the black wire (pin 18) from the white plug and move it to the dark grey plug to pin 17. That is the clutch start switch wire. Overseas and US have the csw wire in different spots, so you need to move pin 18 from the white plug to pin 17 in the dark grey one, just like the 5s harness.

didn't you compare the pins in the 2 harnesses before you started ?

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 13, 2009 - 8:56 AM

[Batman722]

sorry if I came off like a jerk, it was late at night and I was tired.
FYI if you car was an auto, doing this will not make your car start.

First off. Thank you. I did look over the harness before starting but must say I was a little confused as its a little intimidating when you dig into it.

So now that you have guided me in the right direction. Pin 18(white) and Pin17(dark grey) are now connected. In reviewing all of the 3 vertical plugs, here is what I have that does not match.


Plug E6 (light grey)
USDM Harness has Pin 4 - missing on Beams harness - wire color blue with orange rings
SRS light on the dash. if you want you airbags light on your dash, wire that to power. It normally goes to the SRS fuse in the engine bay.
Plug E3 (Dark Grey)
USDM harness has Pin 1 - Beams Pin 8 - Wire color white with blue stripe
for the US it's for the ABS system to the diagnostic box to check codes
USDM harness has Pin 10 - 0 on Beams - wire color blue with white stripe
cruise control - splice into the TPS wire on ECU same color if you want to keep your cruise
USDM harness has Pin 16 - 0 on Beams - wire color pink
OH NOES ! was your car an auto ?
USDM harness missing Pin 9 - Beams has this - wire color solid grey/silver ring
I don't rememeber

Thanks

It's not just pins 4 and 17 on EA1, but interior wires also. I told you it wasn't plug and play...
hint : if it's not starting, refer to "starting and charging" in both manuals

start with this...
was you car m/t ? if so, you need to switch a wire from one interior plug to another. Interior plugs are the 3 plugs next to the ECU that plug in vertically. If it was an auto there's additional wiring like I did with Tina's, Stef's, and Jim's car but it's move involed and difficult to explain online, but I'll try if you need me to, just let me know.

m/t - you need to pull the black wire (pin 18) from the white plug and move it to the dark grey plug to pin 17. That is the clutch start switch wire. Overseas and US have the csw wire in different spots, so you need to move pin 18 from the white plug to pin 17 in the dark grey one, just like the 5s harness.

didn't you compare the pins in the 2 harnesses before you started ?

[turnip]

Its a manual.

This celica is being gutted. Cruise, ABS, Airbags all coming off along with everything that is not needed for it to run. It will never see pavement again. Already removed AC and power steering.

I will go over everything again and see if it starts.

Thanks again.

sorry if I came off like a jerk, it was late at night and I was tired.
FYI if you car was an auto, doing this will not make your car start.

First off. Thank you. I did look over the harness before starting but must say I was a little confused as its a little intimidating when you dig into it.

So now that you have guided me in the right direction. Pin 18(white) and Pin17(dark grey) are now connected. In reviewing all of the 3 vertical plugs, here is what I have that does not match.


Plug E6 (light grey)
USDM Harness has Pin 4 - missing on Beams harness - wire color blue with orange rings
SRS light on the dash. if you want you airbags light on your dash, wire that to power. It normally goes to the SRS fuse in the engine bay.
Plug E3 (Dark Grey)
USDM harness has Pin 1 - Beams Pin 8 - Wire color white with blue stripe
for the US it's for the ABS system to the diagnostic box to check codes
USDM harness has Pin 10 - 0 on Beams - wire color blue with white stripe
cruise control - splice into the TPS wire on ECU same color if you want to keep your cruise
USDM harness has Pin 16 - 0 on Beams - wire color pink
OH NOES ! was your car an auto ?
USDM harness missing Pin 9 - Beams has this - wire color solid grey/silver ring
I don't rememeber

Thanks

It's not just pins 4 and 17 on EA1, but interior wires also. I told you it wasn't plug and play...
hint : if it's not starting, refer to "starting and charging" in both manuals

start with this...
was you car m/t ? if so, you need to switch a wire from one interior plug to another. Interior plugs are the 3 plugs next to the ECU that plug in vertically. If it was an auto there's additional wiring like I did with Tina's, Stef's, and Jim's car but it's move involed and difficult to explain online, but I'll try if you need me to, just let me know.

m/t - you need to pull the black wire (pin 18) from the white plug and move it to the dark grey plug to pin 17. That is the clutch start switch wire. Overseas and US have the csw wire in different spots, so you need to move pin 18 from the white plug to pin 17 in the dark grey one, just like the 5s harness.

didn't you compare the pins in the 2 harnesses before you started ?

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 13, 2009 - 9:14 AM

[Batman722]

the reason I ask if it was an auto is the pink wire on IJ1 pin 16 is only on autos...or at least I thought. My 95 GT doesn't have that wire, maybe just a 94 thing.

any recent pics of the car ?

[turnip]

I will get some up today. It turns over and sounds like its gonna start but then doesnt. So i am puzzled. Gonna pop out hte plugs and check compression and spark and I knows its getting fuel to the injectors. I am also suspect of vacuum. I am using my charcoal canister and believe to have all the lines hooked up correctly but that might be my issue.

Will post up a little later.

Update: Spark on all cylinders.
Cylinder Compression is 165 on 1 and 2
Cylinder Compression is 178 on 3 and 4

My book says compression for the 3sge-non beams should be 178 reg with a 142 min. Does anyone have the offical beams compression in lbs per inch?

Got back in and tried to start and it ran for a brief second. The fuel line definitely has pressure on it as i had a small leak which rules out the fuel pump.
Beginning to suspect the injectors and the TPS sensor. Because holding the throttle in one spot has better results than not touching at all.

Update:
Injectors seem to be working all indications point to AFM and T/B. Gonna get that aftermarket intake and do some cleaning.

Update 9/14
Had it running after fabricating a make shift intake as I do not have the stock beams box. Its running on a open header and idles okay. Ordered that CAI pipe with the AFM sleeve off ebay should be here friday. Will see how that goes.

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 14, 2009 - 2:31 PM

[Rusty]

whoa is that compression right? 3sge (3gen) is about +190psi

[turnip]

whoa is that compression right? 3sge (3gen) is about +190psi

From mr2 beams forum.

Compression pressure:
Reference level 1.37Mpa converted to psi is 198.7
Limit 1.08Mpa converted to psi is 146.4

This makes sense because the non beams 3sge is 10.5:1 and the beams is 11.0:1

[erahman85]

does the stock 5sfe MAF sensor work with the 3sgem beams?

[turnip]

Anyone have a beams B-pipe laying around the want to sell? Or has anyone had any luck modding the 5sfe b-pipe? I am toying with this option or just cutting off the stock manifold right above the collector and welding up my own. I would prefer stock option versus welding.

Throwing the axles in now and removing the sway bar and the rest of the exhaust system why I got it up in the air. Then I have get the dash figured out.

[njccmd2002]

what is the b pipe? the second part of the exhaust? yours did not have it?

[turnip]

what is the b pipe? the second part of the exhaust? yours did not have it?

Yeh its the second pipe from the exhaust manifold. It takes it from two to 1.

[Batman722]

the issue is the b pipe and rest of the exhaust is 2.25". I'm planning on doing just what you've said, cutting right after the collector then welding 2.5" all the way back.

[njccmd2002]

cut the b-pipe at the level of 17410 or cut after the b-pipe where the catalyst is? you will need to post pics when you do this

[njccmd2002]

i have also been lookng at aftermarket headers and there is none...

[BonzaiCelica]

its aftermarket header, single not plural. i was thinking of getting the pheonix header from a member on the mr2 forums and having somebody fabricate one here in CA. wonder how much that would cost???

the redtop has a Mass Air Flow Meter. so its called a MAF sensor correct????

[Rusty]

whoa is that compression right? 3sge (3gen) is about +190psi

From mr2 beams forum.

Compression pressure:
Reference level 1.37Mpa converted to psi is 198.7
Limit 1.08Mpa converted to psi is 146.4

This makes sense because the non beams 3sge is 10.5:1 and the beams is 11.0:1

oh right got you now, that makes more sense, 3sge 3gen is 10.3:1 btw I'd love the extra .2

BonzaiCelica[/b]]the redtop has a Mass Air Flow Meter. so its called a MAF sensor correct????

yup

njccmd2002[/b]]i have also been lookng at aftermarket headers and there is none...

the toyota standard extrators flow quite well already, so any increase would be small, match porting, port and polish will help.

[presure2]

does the stock 5sfe MAF sensor work with the 3sgem beams?

the 5s dont use a MAF.

[turnip]

cut the b-pipe at the level of 17410 or cut after the b-pipe where the catalyst is? you will need to post pics when you do this

If I had the Bpipe I would cut it before the cat. However since I do not I need to get creative.

- source brass gaskets part 17410b - then fabricate a adapter to bolt up to the stock manifold and go custom from there.
- buy a 1.875" ID Primary to 2.5" or 3" Y collector and weld it to the exhaust manifold - then custom from there back.
- cut the exhaust manifold at each primary where they enter the two collectors and extend them to a 4 to 1 collector. By far the most intensive.


I am looking for my power band to be smooth and to mid to high end. Here is a good article on long tube vs shorty. http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techartic...test/index.html

[pasqual]

I did beams swap to celica st202 , 2 years ago ,

I have spare:

-MAF
- ECU (from MT red-top) if You need it
- Y pipe (b-pipe ) available in 2 weeks for sale
- stock flywheel , stock clutch

If You still have problems with wiring , let me know

This post has been edited by pasqual: Sep 15, 2009 - 12:41 PM

[njccmd2002]

I did beams swap to celica st202 , 2 years ago ,

I have spare:

-MAF
- ECU (from MT red-top) if You need it
- Y pipe (b-pipe ) available in 2 weeks for sale
- stock flywheel , stock clutch

If You still have problems with wiring , let me know

there you go turnip

whats the condition of all od this and do you have prices that include shipping to US, B-pipe is for Turnip if he wants it

[turnip]

I did beams swap to celica st202 , 2 years ago ,

I have spare:

-MAF
- ECU (from MT red-top) if You need it
- Y pipe (b-pipe ) available in 2 weeks for sale
- stock flywheel , stock clutch

If You still have problems with wiring , let me know

Appreciate the offers. Bpipe probably weights 30lbs? I would have to imagine shipping from Poland to US would cost at least a $150. Let me know.

[turnip]

the issue is the b pipe and rest of the exhaust is 2.25". I'm planning on doing just what you've said, cutting right after the collector then welding 2.5" all the way back.

So i measured everything today and it looks like the exhaust manfold (E/M) above the brass gaskets is about 1.875 diameter and then goes to 2" at the flange.

I bought one of the those 1 7/8 OD to 2" ID adapters at Advance Auto today and I am contemplating cutting it down to about an inch on the 1 7/8 side and sliding it up into the stock E/M and welding it. Then run two pipes to a y collector and so on.

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 15, 2009 - 9:18 PM

[erahman85]

I did beams swap to celica st202 , 2 years ago ,

I have spare:

-MAF
- ECU (from MT red-top) if You need it
- Y pipe (b-pipe ) available in 2 weeks for sale
- stock flywheel , stock clutch

If You still have problems with wiring , let me know

I thought the beams didn't have a MAF? How does it measure the air then?

[2bcelica]

It does have a MAF, but for the beams its refered to as AFM - and its very sensitive with air. Too much air will kill it.

[erahman85]

It does have a MAF, but for the beams its refered to as AFM - and its very sensitive with air. Too much air will kill it.

so the AFM... Is it located in the same place, between the air filter and the throttle body? I'm asking cuz I am looking to buy a beams but I want to know what to ask these guys to make sure they send me everything i need for the swap... I'm having a hard time even after reading all of this stuff...

[njccmd2002]

the issue is the b pipe and rest of the exhaust is 2.25". I'm planning on doing just what you've said, cutting right after the collector then welding 2.5" all the way back.

So i measured everything today and it looks like the exhaust manfold (E/M) above the brass gaskets is about 1.875 diameter and then goes to 2" at the flange.

I bought one of the those 1 7/8 OD to 2" ID adapters at Advance Auto today and I am contemplating cutting it down to about an inch on the 1 7/8 side and sliding it up into the stock E/M and welding it. Then run two pipes to a y collector and so on.

those gaskets you need are 90917-06075

6 dollars each at 1sttoyota.

the b-pipe looks like is the same as any 3sge...

there is this guy selling some headers in ebay and its for the 7a engine but he also puts 3sge, the b-pipe looks very similar to the 3sge, however not confirmed.

Anybody with 7a headers from ebay, might help you out.

Just trying to help

so the AFM... Is it located in the same place, between the air filter and the throttle body? I'm asking cuz I am looking to buy a beams but I want to know what to ask these guys to make sure they send me everything i need for the swap... I'm having a hard time even after reading all of this stuff...

the maf is also compatible with certain v6 avalons and solaras, you can also get a cai for the solara if you clip does not come with it.

make sure you get the brackets to mount the throttle cable, and the sensors are ok. there are a couple of beams without these brackets.. or broken sensors....

i have been researching too as well....

ohhh

ebay link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-95-96-97...sQ5fAccessories

you know we need to have a beams section... lol

[2bcelica]

It does have a MAF, but for the beams its refered to as AFM - and its very sensitive with air. Too much air will kill it.

so the AFM... Is it located in the same place, between the air filter and the throttle body? I'm asking cuz I am looking to buy a beams but I want to know what to ask these guys to make sure they send me everything i need for the swap... I'm having a hard time even after reading all of this stuff...

Yep you are correct - between throttle body and air filter.

Also another extra piece of info for those who have or will have 3SGE beams. The AFM sensor plug has 5 wires. The MAF/AFM on the 05 corolla and 06 Solara is the same plug (most likely any 99+ MAF), but different size sensor. I swapped the solara's afm to the beams and noticed it was not as air sensitive as the beams AFM - car would still run with the AFM not inside the intake pipe, as for the beams AFM, it would immediately shut off when you remove it from its adapter. I wonder if the beams would run better with the Solara MAF -- something for me to test later. My local auto parts store sells the MAF adapter intake kit for the camry, corolla for $14, so I will run with it tomorrow to see if my beams would be better with it or not (just being curious)

[turnip]

It does have a MAF, but for the beams its refered to as AFM - and its very sensitive with air. Too much air will kill it.

so the AFM... Is it located in the same place, between the air filter and the throttle body? I'm asking cuz I am looking to buy a beams but I want to know what to ask these guys to make sure they send me everything i need for the swap... I'm having a hard time even after reading all of this stuff...

Yep you are correct - between throttle body and air filter.

Also another extra piece of info for those who have or will have 3SGE beams. The AFM sensor plug has 5 wires. The MAF/AFM on the 05 corolla and 06 Solara is the same plug (most likely any 99+ MAF), but different size sensor. I swapped the solara's afm to the beams and noticed it was not as air sensitive as the beams AFM - car would still run with the AFM not inside the intake pipe, as for the beams AFM, it would immediately shut off when you remove it from its adapter. I wonder if the beams would run better with the Solara MAF -- something for me to test later. My local auto parts store sells the MAF adapter intake kit for the camry, corolla for $14, so I will run with it tomorrow to see if my beams would be better with it or not (just being curious)

Keep me posted on how you make out as as soon as this thing starts to see the dirt track and get jostled around I suspect I will have some issues. I still cannot get over how sensitive it is.

[BonzaiCelica]

rusty is fixing up the site a bit. he is going to put information of all the celica engines in individual threads, so there is a sticky of all information on 7afe, 5sfe, 3sge, 3sgte, etc. So there eventually will be a beams redtop section.

uhh what are you talking about. i bought the 7afe header from ebay. a couple of months ago they changed the description to 3sge, why they did that i have no clue. so that downpipe will not work with 3sge. more info on this redtop is good stuff.

[2bcelica]

OK, - confirmed - the other MAF from 99+ toyota's that share the same plug will not work - it threw a CEL.

[erahman85]

OK, - confirmed - the other MAF from 99+ toyota's that share the same plug will not work - it threw a CEL.

what does that mean???

[2bcelica]

OK, - confirmed - the other MAF from 99+ toyota's that share the same plug will not work - it threw a CEL.

what does that mean???

Means not interchangeable.

[erahman85]

OK, - confirmed - the other MAF from 99+ toyota's that share the same plug will not work - it threw a CEL.

what does that mean???

Means not interchangeable.

lol i meant what does it men to throw a cel?

[2bcelica]

Check engine light

[Batman722]

is the one you got the same part # as the beams one ?

22204-20010 ?

[2bcelica]

is the one you got the same part # as the beams one ?

22204-20010 ?

I have the beams one - i was just testing out my curiousity since I noticed that a 2000 celica a 05 corolla an 06 solara share the same MAF which also uses the same plug as the beams AFM.

[turnip]

Look what arrived today.



Damn ebay intake is being delayed. Looks like an arrival middle of next week. Seller was TicTuning just an fyi.

It will give me an extra few days to get this exhaust figured out.

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 17, 2009 - 1:59 PM

[95st-celica]

awesome thread so far...lots of good info...i would like to do the same swap one day.

What exactly are you using the car for? AutoX, track, road course?

are you going strictly N/A? any motor work once its in a running other then intake, exhaust, and the usual bolt-on's?

PLEASE put up some pictures of the car, and such, i would love to take a look at it. inside and out

Cool thread, you get props sir

[turnip]

awesome thread so far...lots of good info...i would like to do the same swap one day.

What exactly are you using the car for? AutoX, track, road course?

are you going strictly N/A? any motor work once its in a running other then intake, exhaust, and the usual bolt-on's?

PLEASE put up some pictures of the car, and such, i would love to take a look at it. inside and out

Cool thread, you get props sir

DIRT track Strictly N/A. Shooting for an stock engine with high output for low maintance reasons. Making the car lighter and having LSD and hopefully some 245 meat eaters on the front it should allow it to hook up. I race with guys who have 225 to 250 at the wheels and the car wont hook up because one it dirt and they cant squeeze a fat tire on the front. Ever see the size of a world outlaw late model tire?? Its freaking huge but it has to be with the cars putting out 400-500 at the wheels. Suspension will be key as well.

Gonna try do the and gonna polish the intake manifold over the winter.

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 17, 2009 - 4:14 PM

[njccmd2002]

sweet, how many miles on the cluster.....

[turnip]

sweet, how many miles on the cluster.....

95,986 k

[njccmd2002]

hey, whats the status on the start issue?

do you have pics of where the charcoal canister is plugged to the engine sensor.

and did you use the stock beams alternator or the 5sfe.

[turnip]

hey, whats the status on the start issue?

do you have pics of where the charcoal canister is plugged to the engine sensor.

and did you use the stock beams alternator or the 5sfe.

It starts and idles fine at this point. All of my issue revolved around the sensitivity of the AFM. I have not put it back together just yet as I am working on fabricating an exhaust setup and waiting on some parts from jegs to arrive. Also the intake will not be here till Wed. likely.

As for your questions. I am using beams altenator but I did remove AC and power steering only have the Alt. belt on. As for hte purge canister I am using the stock 5sfe canister in the stock location which is on frame on the driverside right next to the firewall on the 94 gt. All the vacuum lines on my beams reached the canister with no problems.

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 20, 2009 - 9:12 AM

[BonzaiCelica]

you dont need the cluster gauge, all you need is the 7,000 rpm gauge from a st202 that uses 3rd gen 3sge or 3sgte and you use your original cluster gauge that you have on your celica.

[trdproven]

hey, whats the status on the start issue?

do you have pics of where the charcoal canister is plugged to the engine sensor.

and did you use the stock beams alternator or the 5sfe.

It starts and idles fine at this point. All of my issue revolved around the sensitivity of the AFM. I have not put it back together just yet as I am working on fabricating an exhaust setup and waiting on some parts from jegs to arrive. Also the intake will not be here till Wed. likely.

As for your questions. I am using beams altenator but I did remove AC and power steering only have the Alt. belt on. As for hte purge canister I am using the stock 5sfe canister in the stock location which is on frame on the driverside right next to the firewall on the 94 gt. All the vacuum lines on my beams reached the canister with no problems.

Did you have to repin the wires for the gauge cluster?

[Rusty]

you dont need the cluster gauge, all you need is the 7,000 rpm gauge from a st202 that uses 3rd gen 3sge or 3sgte and you use your original cluster gauge that you have on your celica.

actually you do need the BREAMS rpm guage cluster, since its required to run vvti.

I have heard of people swapping it over to non BEAMS engines, but needs rewiring of some sorts. I haven't done this myself, and I dont know if there is any difference on different celicas (5sfe 3sge/gte)

[BonzaiCelica]

uhh from what 2bcelica said, you do not need 3sge redtop cluster.

http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showto...67351&st=80

[njccmd2002]

so any 7 redline 3sge will work?

[Rusty]

umm hes stll using the beams rpm guage (like I said), but hes swapped over the speedo one, unless I'v missed the part your talking about?

actually you do need the BEAMS rpm guage cluster, since its required to run vvti.

^^ I spelled BEAMS wrong lol

[pasqual]

You dont need celica beams cluster or rpm guge ....


can be stock and for convert signal use :

SGI-8D

http://www.dakotadigital.com/pdf/sgi-8d.pdf

I did it , working well for beams ECU

[BonzaiCelica]

so any 7 redline 3sge will work?

see I told you soo. 2bcelica just did the swap and i understood him just fine.

thanks for backing up that info pasqual.

[njccmd2002]

well i just asked in mr2/beams

1. Beams tacho is just swapped and fine.

2. Any other needs mods, signal change, or adapters.

One of the guys over there tried a 7rpm redline new 3sge and it did not work....

[2bcelica]

you do need the beams 9k rpm tach swapped into the st204 cluster housing - other wise your rpm will not work. I have confirmed this.

[BonzaiCelica]

ah really dayum that sucks. Well thats not my concern, just the fact that its white (can you get the gauge plate to be black like the 3rd gen 3sge) if you put a white cluster light behind it the color doesnt come out very white. or atleast thats what you have tested on the gauges, right 2bcelica???

[2bcelica]

yeah - the led bulb i got from superbrightleds.com didn't come out well on the beams white face. I have seen on ebay that there are black 9k gauges for the beams, so if ur lucky you can get one thats black. I like the white, but doesn't look good at night, I might have to get a brighter bulb.

[turnip]

Intake arrived today. Its pretty chinsy but it should work for what I need. AFM did fit in. Have yet to start it back up. Still working on exhaust. Jegs y collector should be here tomorrow.

[2bcelica]

Intake arrived today. Its pretty chinsy but it should work for what I need. AFM did fit in. Have yet to start it back up. Still working on exhaust. Jegs y collector should be here tomorrow.

Hey, take some pictures of progress when you get a chance. I'm still working on my idling issue. I played with the timing, but it didn't resolve. I left it on jack stand for now since I got caught up with work. I will be working on it again tomorrow.

[Batman722]

well i just asked in mr2/beams

1. Beams tacho is just swapped and fine.

2. Any other needs mods, signal change, or adapters.

One of the guys over there tried a 7rpm redline new 3sge and it did not work....

just to clear things up, our rpm cluster reads the signal from the distributor/igniter. The beams rpm dial is different because is reads a different type of signal because it doesn't have a distributor/igniter

so the answer is what 2bcelica has been saying (and what outsider said 4 years ago), the rpm gauge in your cluster will not work with the beams motor.
It's not able to interpet the signal the beams is giving it. To have a working rpm gauge just use the beams one, or use a signal adapter like the one pasqual posted a link for.

[BonzaiCelica]

alright thanks. Dont really understand how to do that, but hopefully these toyota electrical classes that im taking will help me understand on how to convert the signal.

[Rusty]

thanks batman that was the point I was trying to make, since the 3gen 3sge still runs on the same type of signal as your ST204, but ours has a larger rpm range

I have heard of people doing a BEAMS cluster sawp onto a 3gen 3sge and they had to rewire it, I didn't know about that adapter, would make things alot easier.

[njccmd2002]

Intake arrived today. Its pretty chinsy but it should work for what I need. AFM did fit in. Have yet to start it back up. Still working on exhaust. Jegs y collector should be here tomorrow.

which intake did you buy?

[njccmd2002]

been looking at the wiring, so..

why do we need our original 5sfe wiring. im assuming just that part from the fusebox to the lamps. cuz the rest is not being used. apart to use it to leghten wires?

im confused. You lengthen some wires and repinn some, thats fine, but whats the real use of the rest of the harness.

[Batman722]

been looking at the wiring, so..

why do we need our original 5sfe wiring. im assuming just that part from the fusebox to the lamps. cuz the rest is not being used. apart to use it to leghten wires?

im confused. You lengthen some wires and repinn some, thats fine, but whats the real use of the rest of the harness.

you use the entire beams harness.

this is the wiring IIRC

where the fuse box is in the engine bay the engine harness unplugs from it.
You plug the beams engine harness into your fuse box in your engine bay, that plug is EA1.
Each pin on EA1 is numbered, you need to bridge together pins 4 and 17 (the US harness doesn't have pin 17 and beams pin 17 needs + when 4 has it.)

on the other end of the beams engine harness there are 3 interior plugs (3 vertical plugs right next to the ECU).
The beams ECU has 4 plugs and the circuit opening relay (COR).
The 3 interior plugs are white (19 pins), light grey (13 pins) and dark grey (17 pins)
the black wire from the white plug (pin #18) must be removed and re-pinned to the dark grey plug into pin # 17.

that is the wiring. Do those things and the car starts, drives, ect..
fyi if you want cruise control or airbag light to work, there's a bit more.

As for extending the harness, you would need to extend some wires to fit into the LHD configuration or you make a new hole in the firewall and put the harness through it there.

[turnip]

Intake arrived today. Its pretty chinsy but it should work for what I need. AFM did fit in. Have yet to start it back up. Still working on exhaust. Jegs y collector should be here tomorrow.

which intake did you buy?

I bought the chinsey one off ebay for 37 and free shipping. The link is page back.

Hey, take some pictures of progress when you get a chance. I'm still working on my idling issue. I played with the timing, but it didn't resolve. I left it on jack stand for now since I got caught up with work. I will be working on it again tomorrow.

I really havent made much progress since getting the engine in and running. I have boot on a tie rod leaking so I decided to fix that while its apart. Since I took the P/S off its critical to keep fluid in the rack. Plus I hate drippy cars. Its just been collecting dust on Jack stands the past week. I have had like no free time the past week. Trying to find a crank pulley but unorthodox stopped making them a year and half ago for the 5sfe/3sgte which is suppose to fit. They said they would make a custom one for 500. So now looking at a C-One or Beatrush. $300 clams plus shipping is a lot of dough for a crank pulley.

This post has been edited by turnip: Sep 23, 2009 - 8:06 AM

[njccmd2002]

that is the wiring. Do those things and the car starts, drives, ect..
fyi if you want cruise control or airbag light to work, there's a bit more.

airbag light kind of important, will check that out. i have cruise, ill try to figure it out, if i cant ill pm you

[turnip]

Batman we appreciate all the help.

[BonzaiCelica]

get the lightweight c-one pulley from nengun.

[99GT]

Batman kicks ass.

[pasqual]

turnip can You put point by point problems you need to solve ??

is not easy track conversation , is not clear what is done and what you need to fix ...


1. idlle problem -- status ?
2. rpm gauge -- status ??
etc.

[turnip]

turnip can You put point by point problems you need to solve ??

is not easy track conversation , is not clear what is done and what you need to fix ...


1. idlle problem -- status ?
2. rpm gauge -- status ??
etc.

At this point the only issue I have is lack of $$$ and time. Appreciate the offer to help. Im sure something will pop up once I get it ready to start beating on it. Right now I just need to get it back together.